Pope: Who am I to judge gay people?

[dipsydoodle]

Source: BBC News

Pope Francis has said gay people should not be judged or marginalised.

Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he said: "If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him?"

He also referred to the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, which say that while homosexual acts are sinful, homosexual orientation is not.

The Pope's remarks are being seen as much more conciliatory than his predecessor's position on the issue.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23489702

[Scootaloo]

1. Who is this guy and what did he do with the Bishop of Rome? n/t

[xchrom]

2. check under the settee.

it's always a good place to start.

[Blue_Tires]

53. +1

[dbackjon]

55. Really? You think that is a positive statement?

[Scootaloo]

82. Compared to the blanket condemnation of his predecessors?

Let's be honest, it's not as if the bar is exactly high on this one.

[dbackjon]

112. So that makes it a cause for celebration?

This is akin to "we are only going to torture you for 5 days instead of a month before we kill you" improvement

[Fearless]

134. In reality it is the difference between

Telling a LGBTer that they are automatically going to hell and telling them that they aren't if they believe. For the church that is a HUGE difference. Ask a person each day for 1500 years whether they hate LGBTers and for 1500 years they say yes. Then one day they say "not necessarily". That's more like what's going on here. It isn't perfect, but it is progress. The fact that it seems like a very poor situation shows just how far from reality they've been for so long. Perhaps someday we can say that the Catholic church will accept LGBTers regardless. There's no sense in not supporting the first inkling of that IMHO.

[yardwork]

158. I think that the pope's statement is actually a pretty big deal.

Fearless says it well here. This is not an incremental change. It's the difference between considering gay people to be non-people and considering them to be people.

Yes, there's a long way to go, but this is a very interesting comment.

[ZombieHorde]

91. It's a huge step in the right direction.

The next Pope will be much more likely to embrace civil rights now.

I agree that the statement is still demeaning, but we are witnessing a big shift here.

[reorg]

110. please explain

I vividly remember the previous Pope in a public discussion on morals some twenty years ago. He was still a Cardinal at the time but he made the exact same statement, pointing out it was not his place to "judge" people but that God expected from him to help the poor sinners ...

[dbackjon]

113. If it is still demeaning, how is it a big shift?

[ZombieHorde]

119. The previous Popes have been bigger jerks about the subject.

Tone shifts often precede shifts in thought.

[reorg]

123. not true

why the obsession to defend the pope when he makes bigoted statements? Please explain what you consider a "change in tone". His predecessor said the exact same thing as he did.

[ZombieHorde]

124. "why the obsession to defend the pope"

I actually attacked the Pope, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

[theHandpuppet]

125. Yeah, sure....

[Yo_Mama]

144. I don't think it is a change

That seems to be pretty much reiterating what's in the Catechism on the subject. I gather reporters were asking him why this particular priest had a high position when he was known (or rumored) to have had homosexual affairs years ago, and I think Francis' response was entirely appropriate.

[Thor_MN]

132. Baby steps, friend

You don't yell at the puppy for shitting on the sidewalk, when it has been consistently shitting in the house.

[Bluenorthwest]

136. You also don't call a puppy shitting on the floor Holy Father, Vicar of Christ. Nor do folks run

around announcing that the puppy shitting on the floor is shitting more gracefully than the last puppy, and thus the shit on the floor should be allowed to lay there unacknowledged.

[Thor_MN]

143. Why would anyone call a puppy anything other than it's name?

And WTH does that have to do with anything?

You maybe prefer to keep things totally the same so you can just bitch and moan about them? It takes generations for change to occur, it doesn't happen overnight. It is a gradual process. The world is not binary, as much as conservative thinkers would like it to be. The best anyone can do is to acknowledge the successes, and speak out against the failures. Bitch about everything and it just creates backlash that destroys the successes.

[theHandpuppet]

145. Say what???

"You maybe prefer to keep things totally the same so you can just bitch and moan about them?"

Things ARE the same. Nothing has changed. The fact that anyone would point that out does not equate to "bitching and moaning"... unless you're gay, I guess, huh?

[Thor_MN]

147. If you had bothered to read this subthread

You would understand that it is about questioning about the concept that the pope's "Who am I to judge" quote was a positive thing. Has the church done bad things? Yes. Are they doing bad things? Yes. Does the pope saying "Who am I to judge" fix everything? Obviously not. But why complain about a step in the right direction?

"Things ARE the same. Nothing has changed." Can you please provide a link to all previous popes saying "Who am I to judge gay people?" Because that is what you are claiming in saying that nothing has changed.

Centuries of condemnation and now a pope says "Who am I to judge" and you think nothing has changed...

[theHandpuppet]

148. Oh, I've read the entire thread multiple times

I repeat, nothing has changed. Platitudes are just that... words. Nothing has changed for GLBTs or for women in the RCC. If anything really has changed due to this earth-shaking passing of holy wind, please provide a link so we may witness this miracle. Barring that, your ROFL is really insulting.

[Thor_MN]

153. You are free to your opinion and to be just as miserable as you desire

I will continue to laugh at people who can not see anything positive in anything. If you find that insulting, please have the miserable life you so desperately seem to want.

[theHandpuppet]

154. Not the first time we've all heard that kind of response

Try harder.

[Thor_MN]

155. Who am I to stand in the way of your absolute misery?

If you are looking for someone to be responsible for your utter inability to see anything positive, try a mirror.

[theHandpuppet]

157. Yes indeed

Who are you.

[Thor_MN]

159. I'm the person you replied to.

[melm00se]

3. Did you catch the last paragraph of the article?

"The problem is not having this orientation," he said. "We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem."

politicians, greedy folks and, after all, those dirty Masons.

[Orrex]

4. Jackie Mason?

[yurbud]

63. I would take Jackie Mason over the other kind.

[freshwest]

75. Yup, one of the Founding Fathers! Muahaha!

This needs a smiley face, though:

[Arkana]

11. Someone call Robert Langdon.

[cprise]

28. Having a Pope elide the gay lobby with financial elites

...is extremely dangerous. It echoes the old Catholic fascism.

[caseymoz]

35. For a moment I thought it read "Mormon lobbies"

I thought the Mason conspiracy was on the outs these days.

[Bluenorthwest]

37. So horrific.

Being gay is like being greedy, and we must remain closeted. Pernicious bullshit.

[Heywood J]

97. "In this lobby, will there be TP? TP for my bunghole?" (NT)

[Arugula Latte]

141. So end the Catholic Lobby. Stay the fuck out of government, RCC.

[madrchsod]

152. my grand father was a mason.

from what my grandmother said he was right up there in rank. i guess i could give a shit less about it but his ceremonial sword was fucking cool! to bad my grandma gave it back to the masons

[Elmergantry]

5. Here is the key phrase

"He also referred to the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, which say that while homosexual acts are sinful, homosexual orientation is not."


That has been the "official" Church position all along. They say this orientation is just another type of temptation, a cross to bear.
Giving in to the temptation is where ones runs into trouble with the Church.

Many Fundies believe the orientation itself is sinful.


The Masonic reference is odd thing to say in 2013.

[Delphinus]

6. Isn't it, though (ref to Masons).

Especially by someone so learned.

[Katashi_itto]

14. No it's not he's speaking from his own experience. Masonic

lobbies are powerful within the church

[visca]

46. Propaganda Due

Actually he's probably referring to the Masonic Lodge called
Propaganda Due or P2 for short.
A partial list of members included the heads of the Italian secret services, 195 officers of the different armed forces (12 generals of the Carabinieri, 5 of the financial police Guardia di Finanza, 22 of the army, 4 of the air force and 8 admirals), as well as 44 members of parliament, 3 ministers and a secretary of a political party, leading magistrates, a few prefects and heads of police, bankers and businessmen, civil servants, journalists and broadcasters.
While a full membership list was never discovered (including the original 1,000 members) it included foreign members such as generals & admirals in the Argentine and Uruguayan dictatorships involved in the 'dirty wars' in their countries, and high ranking officials in the Vatican.
P2 also worked very closely with the various Calabrian and Sicilian organized crime units, ditto the CIA. Top Vatican Bank positions were also held by P2 members (who helped launder the money to Ollie North's Contras and which this Pope has been tasked with cleaning up).
It also included an Italian most have probably heard of - Silvio
Berlusconi. The P2 lodge may still exist under a different name but it was very active & influential as such, at least, thru the papacy of John Paul II.

[Katashi_itto]

49. Thanks! I didnt know about that

[caseymoz]

40. It used to be . . .

. . . that all sexual acts were sinful by their nature. In the middle ages, they all had to be confessed as mortal transgressions. The Church made a lot of money from the penance, I'm sure.

If you consider now that the church prohibits every sexual act or thought except after marriage with your spouse, with no "artificial" birth control, and that every act has to be reproductive "by nature," the Church seems to me to be anti-human in general.

The Masonic reference was odd, but it's much stranger to me that some Catholics follow (or try to follow), these restrictions and will then say they're not anti-sex in general.

But those celibate people running that RC Cult certainly target gay rights specifically, while they flatter married heterosexuals raising children.

[thesquanderer]

67. re: "homosexual acts are sinful, homosexual orientation is not."

Isn't that also true of most heterosexual sexual acts? i.e. those that are not for procreation?

[dbackjon]

74. So gays can never have sex, according to the FUCKED UP theology of the Catholics and most other

Religions.

[thesquanderer]

76. Sure they can have sex.

Just like straight people can had "unapproved" sex. They just have to go to confession afterwards.

[JackRiddler]

96. Sure they can have sex...

Only if it is not to count as a sin it has to be with a lawfully wedded female wife for the sole purpose of procreation. It's not like a lot of homosexual men haven't done that all through history, right?

[Elmergantry]

79. Yes and No.

It gets real "technical"..

If you engage in anal heterosexual sex and you umm..."finish"..at that...well sinful.

If its a form of foreplay,but the act is ultimately "finished" in a manner open to procreativity, its not..

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. This is what passes for a charm offensive, RC Church-style, 2013.

Orientation is ok ( you can't help it) but stay outta the "lobby".

In other words... gay is ok as long as we can continue to pretend that you don't exist.

Old snake-oil, brand new glitzy cans.

This pope and his pr machine is getting tiresome as hell.

[theHandpuppet]

9. You got it.

And LBN seems to have become part of that PR machine.

[Comrade Grumpy]

69. Some won't be happy until the Pope shows up in a speedo at the Gay Pride parade.

I see his statement as a step in the right direction.

[Psephos]

99. well said n/t

[dbackjon]

115. No it isn't

[Nihil]

107. Deleted my previous response ...

... as there's just too much hate on this thread (and no, that wasn't aimed at you CG).

[CTyankee]

133. Ain't it the truth...I don't even want to post sometimes because of all the hostility that seems

to come out of the ether...

[reorg]

109. Please explain how this statement is a "step" in any direction at all

The previous Pope made the exact same statements, it's just standard Catholic rhetoric. They always love and embrace "the sinner" while hating the "sin".

[Skittles]

127. dbackjon, you are my kind of guy!

SAY IT LIKE IT IS

[Skittles]

126. WTF

you are really outing yourself

[CTyankee]

8. So, Francis, how do you feel about women becoming priests?

Are you willing to stop marginalizing them?

[theHandpuppet]

13. Don't hold your breath waiting for responses

I've found that throughout the 80+ Pope threads posted to LBN since January (yes, that's nearly a dozen every month) when posters question the church's stance on such issues as equality for women and GLBTs, the only thing you'll hear in response are crickets. You're just supposed to say how much you're loving this Pope; rinse and repeat when the next thread comes along in a day or so.

Edited to add: Oh, and don't forget to give each thread a recommendation so His Holiness can stay on the "Greatest threads" list.

[CTyankee]

17. same old same old...as the saying goes...

he would deny moral choice to half of humanity and that is not right and never will be IMO...

[DreamGypsy]

45. Did you read the article? Maybe the margin will get thinner, but no priests...

On the role of women in the Church, he said: "We cannot limit the role of women in the Church to altar girls or the president of a charity, there must be more.

"But with regards to the ordination of women, the Church has spoken and says no... That door is closed."

Guess it's still OK for ladies to bake cookies and scrub the floors.

[CTyankee]

61. Actually, I heard that on NPR this a.m. when I was driving to the library...I nearly swerved off

the road it made me so damn mad...

Oh, and when will he stop the Vatican jihad against those progressive, activist nuns? How about them, Francis?

[calimary]

120. No, not okay!

Second-class citizens we are NOT. Although they do seem to want very much to keep us there.

Perhaps the Pope figured that if he threw a bone to one segment of the "outsiders" then all the rest would be grateful and stop complaining and take what they could get. Maybe some in (and supporters of) the gay community will be content with this. Maybe not.

I wish they'd remember how critically important women are. Even God Himself couldn't do that remarkable Thing He did, the way He intended (sending His only Son to live among and be "one of us," that is), WITHOUT A WOMAN. God the Almighty could simply have created a fully-formed adult Jesus-type manifestation to pop into the Temple one fine afternoon, or arrive on one of those flaming chariots with an escort of heraldic angels and Heavenly hosts and all that.

Feels as though Holy Mother (HAH! Now THAT is curious, too, isn't it?) Church really hasn't come very far along those lines at all, regardless how open-minded and forward-thinking the new Pope is regarded as being.

[theHandpuppet]

128. But they already have jobs

Have as many future parishioners as possible so the church coffers remain full. Never mind that particular job will keep millions of women and children in poverty -- the Pope said he doesn't like poverty. At least he said so on his private jet.

[Arkana]

10. Well, it's not exactly tolerance, but from the Catholic Church I'll take what I can get.

[Bluenorthwest]

22. Meaning 'I'm not gay so I don't care'

nt

[Arkana]

30. Not what I said, but you carry on beating that strawman.

FYI, I don't like the Catholic Church any more than you do. I just recognize baby steps towards progress when I see it. Are their views still very regressive? Yes. Do I believe that if they want to have relevance in the modern world they're going to have to stop hating women and gay people? Yes. Do I also recognize that this Pope is more open-minded than a lot of his predecessors from the last like 500 years? Yes.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. The OP is a Straw Pontiff, Francis said nothing that is new. 'hate the sin, love the sinner'.

He calls us names, says we have to confess, associates us with some 'lobby' and demands celibacy of us. This is what they all say and do. It sounds fresh to you because you want to like the pope. And because it is not YOU he is calling a sinner who must confess, remain closeted and alone.
There is nothing in what he said that other haters like him have not said before.

[Jakes Progress]

12. But women. He can judge the heck out of them.

Sure is seems like a step forward, but it is still a male-against-female hierarchy. I would guess that lesbians are on the real short end of the stick.

[Beacool]

16. Baby steps.........

One shock at the time. I don't think that the old Curia can handle Francis' views all at once.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Celebrate when there is change, not when there is no change. It is insulting to GLBT people.

I don't give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut about the 'Curia'. Old men, mostly guilty of crimes against children.

[theHandpuppet]

24. There is a saying...

A difference which makes no difference IS no difference.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. The difference is that this Pope can trick his followers into cheering for no difference.

'Right on! Go Francis! they shout while he says the same old hateful things. It defines them. They join his lies willingly, gleefully.

[theHandpuppet]

32. If you review the responses to the 80 previous Pope threads...

...posted to LBN just this year, you'll see these same mantras repeated over and over. These threads have turned LBN into a joke. The majority of them don't even belong on LBN but on the religion forum.

[Bluenorthwest]

33. It is intentional anti gay activism.

nt

[dbackjon]

56. Yup!

[Beacool]

15. Right on, Francis!!!!

Although in a few hours there may be a semi retraction from someone in the Curia, as they did when he stated that atheists can also go to Heaven when they died if they are good people. The Curia almost choked on that one and a correction was immediately released to the press.

I say, release the Pope!!!! Let the man say what he wants to say.

[davidpdx]

19. I agree, reform is going to take time for the Catholic Church

I'm not Catholic and certainly won't defend any of their stances, but any move toward progress should be welcome.

[Beacool]

43. I attend a Lutheran church, but was raised Catholic.

Last edited Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:52 PM - Edit history (1)

People seem to think that doctrine should be changed in a wink of an eye. There are some things that the Church will never change. Their position on abortion, for example. I understand that and it's one issue that we'll just agree to disagree. But on other issues, such as on the use of birth control, I'm hoping that they change their stance.

[Peace Patriot]

64. Why should there be "doctrine"? Jesus never said, "Believe this or be damned."

The Church has gone way, way, WAY off the path that Jesus laid out and lived. This wrong turn goes back to the 5th Century, at least, and has never been corrected. It was a wrongful association of religion with STATE POWER. And the Boys' Club in the Vatican still thinks that way and clings to that distorted, harmful, un-Christian path, for it has become part of their self-indentity to dictate to others. It is self-worship, as is so very obvious in their contempt for women.

In this respect, I do sympathize with any pope who tries to change such an entrenched, ego-centric culture, and also for others within the Church who are trying to do so. It is like subjecting the CIA to the open air, only worse. The Church as been stuck in this grave error for almost two millennia. The CIA would be 'easy' to change by comparison, for all their grave damage to our democracy. The Vatican's damage to the concept of "love thy neighbor" and its war on the simple, highly tolerant, communal life of the earliest Christians, for the sake of POWER--a quite literal war at some points, with tens of thousands of murders--and, at other times, an intellectual/political/spiritual war to displace "love thy neighbor" with MONARCHY and TYRANNY--will be very difficult to undo.

If Francis is on the "love thy neighbor" path, I applaud him. What courage! But his statement about gays reflects a slavery to DOCTRINE. Doctrine is one of the tools of this oppression--this imprisonment of the human soul--that took off in the 5th Century and has never been questioned. Jesus did NOT create "doctrines."

[Elmergantry]

80. It goes back to Matthew 16:19

"And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven"?


Basically gave the Church Plenipotentiary powers

[Bluenorthwest]

20. What he said is no different from what all his peers say 'as long as they are celebate, it is ok'

This is hate speech, not some kindness. Here is Dolan's rap

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (HOST): And you know, especially this week – because it’s been at the top of the news – for many gay and lesbian Americans –– gay and lesbian Catholics, they feel unwelcome –– in the Church. And what do you say as a minister, as a pastor – to a gay couple that comes to you and say, “We love God. We love the Church. But we also love each other, and we –– want to raise a family in faith. What do you say to them?

DOLAN: Well, the first thing I’d say to them is, “I love you, too. And God loves you. And you are made in God’s image and likeness. And – and we – we want your happiness. But – and you’re entitled to friendship.” But we also know that God has told us that the way to happiness, that – especially when it comes to sexual love – that is intended only for a man and woman in marriage, where children can come about naturally. We gotta be – we gotta do better to see that our defense of marriage is not reduced to an attack on gay people. And I admit, we haven’t been too good at that.
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/03/31/1800001/cardinal-dolan-to-gay-couples-youre-only-entitled-to-friendship/

Dolan's background in crime:
Tragic as the sexual abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church has been, it is shocking to discover that Cardinal Timothy Dolan, while archbishop of Milwaukee, moved $57 million off the archdiocesan books into a cemetery trust fund six years ago in order to protect the money from damage suits by victims of abuse by priests.
Cardinal Dolan, now the archbishop of New York, has denied shielding the funds as an “old and discredited” allegation and “malarkey.” But newly released court documents make it clear that he sought and received fast approval from the Vatican to transfer the money just as the Wisconsin Supreme Court was about to open the door to damage suits by victims raped and abused as children by Roman Catholic clergy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/opinion/cardinal-dolan-and-the-sex-abuse-scandal.html?_r=0

So what do you have to say about that bullshit, hmmmmmmmmm?

[Elmergantry]

25. Pope didnt say anyhting new per the athiests

Or homosexuals.

From the Chuch catechism per athiesm:

"Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion but the imputability of the offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances CCC2125."

Whats different about this Pope is he saying what the Church has said in a way that is stripped of it legalise and out "on the street" so to speak.

Nothing really has changed.

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Thank you. The mendacity around here is disgusting.

nt

[Beacool]

42. The difference is that this is the first Pope who I have heard say

that atheists can go to Heaven, and he got smacked down for saying it by the traditionalists.

[Bluenorthwest]

50. He did not say that. Here is a discussion that is favorable to him, but also accurate about what

he said. Read it please as it is at least honest, which is refreshing.

No, the Pope Didn't Just Say All Atheists Go to Heaven
Instead, he was emphasizing the openness of the Catholic Church, which is perhaps even more important.


http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/no-the-pope-didnt-just-say-all-atheists-go-to-heaven/276214/

[dbackjon]

57. WHY ARE YOU CHEERING A FUCKING BIGOT>?

Did you understand his statement?

Gay is ok, as long as you don't act on it. Fucking great.

It is still a gay-hating statement.

[Beacool]

77. He's talking about the priests.

Gay or straight, they are supposed to be celibate. This is a reversal from what Benedict said, he told them not to become priests if they were gay.

[dbackjon]

78. No, he is NOT just talking about the priests.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. This is not new nor kind it is what Dolanbigot says as well 'they are allowed freindship only'

meaning no sex. This is not 'conciliatory' nor better than Ratsy and Frankie Ones did not apologize for saying our relationships are 'an attack on God' or for saying that gay people as parents is 'child abuse'. That last one is very twisted out of the chief coverup expert for a child rape ring,Frankie's peer and pals are actual abusers of kids.
LBN seems to be Pope Central, a religious forum that is only for one religion and one sort of person.

[cprise]

23. Don't judge gays. Judge WOMEN instead. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

27. Judge women and gays who have sex. He says we have to be celebate.

This Pope is saying 'Hate the sin, love the sinner' and folks here are pretending this is good and new when it is old style hate mongering.

[NYC Liberal]

68. Exactly. "Love the sinner" is not bad; it's the claim that

being gay (or acting on it) is wrong at all.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. pushing this here as if it was not retread hate speech is offensive.

Knock yourself out, post away, just know that it is a crappy and bigoted thing to do. 'Hate the sin, not the sinner' your Pope says just like Falwell or any Fundie and you claim it is news? BARF.

[totodeinhere]

62. Correct. Hate the sin not the sinner is the position of many fundamentalist

Protestant churches and the Mormon Church. It is nothing new. And I wouldn't be surprised if he is even forced to walk back those comments.

[nevergiveup]

34. I call this "stumbling off the starting line"

but at least it is a start.

[Bluenorthwest]

39. I call Alabama the Crimson Tide.

At least I'm accurate and not falling for anti gay spin.

[forestpath]

38. No, he just judges them for wanting to have lives like straight people do.

BIG difference.

[caseymoz]

41. Other Popes have said about the same thing.

It's the judgments that they make in almost the same breath. With him, he separates the "good" gays from the "lobbyists" who are really the problem. And of course, if you're gay and you don't seek God in the way the Church approves of, then he'll judge you.

It's bullshit. His definition of "not judging" and the definition everyone thinks they hear are two different things.

[cecilfirefox]

44. I appreciate his words, I do- BUT, I, and my 'acts', are not sinful, temptations, thorns in the

flesh, or a cross to bear.

People are made this way, integrate them into society and let them be happy, productive persons.

Lifelong celibacy or fake imitation marriages?

Thanks, but no thanks. That ship don't sail.

[dickthegrouch]

47. The rules for the private members club called the church

can be anything he damn well pleases as head of that club. The members can choose to adhere to them or not.

HOWEVER, the rules for the rest of us in a Constitutional Democracy which GUARANTEES equal protection and SEPARATION of Church from State, say that we can live our lives without having to defend ourselves every time some Catholic prick thinks they have to protest too much.

Obama in particular should be telling the pontiff to FUCK OFF and respect the rules of this land and not interfere with them.

It really burns me to see nightly "news" coverage of this private members club and its so-called leader. They all belong on the trash heap of history.

[Kelvin Mace]

48. He will reverse himself just like he did with atheists

One day he said they were OK, the next he claimed that his remark in no way contradicted the church view that they were going to Hell.

[Nye Bevan]

51. Not perfect, but certainly a lot better than hanging gay people or stoning them to death.

I guess some religions evolve more quickly than others.

[DainBramaged]

52. 'bout fucking time

[dbackjon]

58. What is there to cheer?

That he is not calling for the stoning of gays?

[DainBramaged]

59. (sigh) Would you rather he have said" kill all Gays let God sort them out"?

I'm not the one looking for a fight.


Take it what ever way you like.

[dbackjon]

60. I'd rather he just say "We still hate the gays"

Which is what he is saying, instead of sucking people into thinking the Church has progressed in anyway.


The Church is still the number one block to gay equality in many areas.

[DainBramaged]

139. Well then write the HolyFather and tell him how you feel

I'm sorry my response didn't make you happy.

[Bluenorthwest]

138. And those are the choices as you see them? Full hate or hate couched in a cloud of rhetoric?

Some old man like Francis speaking about my loved ones as he does is looking for a fight.
Fuck Francis, he's a bigoted and foul mouthed old fool.

[Humanist_Activist]

70. What changed, this was the official position of the Catholic Church all along...

that Sexual Orientation isn't sinful, but expression of it outside of sacramental marriage is sinful, and same sex couples can't get married by the church. The Church also technically opposes "unjust" discrimination of people based on orientation, but get you better ask them what they consider unjust first.

[dbackjon]

54. He can still go fuck himself

Great - I can be gay, just have to be celibate, can't have a relationship, etc.

[Comrade Grumpy]

71. Charming. As always.

[dbackjon]

73. So I should be nice to a person that doesn't view me as fully human?

[NYC Liberal]

65. This is nothing new and has been in the Catechism for a long time

"Love the sinner, hate the sin"

The Catechism has said for a while that gays should be loved and not discriminated against, but "homosexual acts" are depraved and wrong. In other words you can be gay but you can never act on it. You can never fall in love and be with the person you love.

The problem isn't the "love the sinner" attitude; it's the idea that being gay is wrong at all.

Same shit different pope.

[JDPriestly]

66. We shall see, but he sounds like a pretty good guy.

Let's see what he does about birth control and abortion. Those are the issues on which the Catholic Church has failed its members and doomed many of them to listless lives of need and hunger.

[Humanist_Activist]

72. Uhm, nothing has changed, he still thinks same sex marriage is from "The Father of Lies"...

he just openly expressed the Catechism of the Catholic Church, what a shocker!

[Jakes Progress]

81. Just his way to duck the scandal that made ratzinger retire.

He will still condemn homosexuals. He will still maintain a masculine hierarchy in the church.

[Ash_F]

83. It's great that Duers are all mad about Catholics and stuff.

But this Pope's attempts to move the institution and its followers towards the middle will save a lot of people a lot of real suffering around the world.

[dbackjon]

84. *Your results will vary if you are Gay

[Ash_F]

86. Particularly gays.

Namely in Latin America.

I realize that you would rather there be no Catholics, but that is not a realistic goal for today or tomorrow. Your yammering on a public forum will not defeat the Church. This man's words will do far more. Sorry, that is not meant as a slight, it's reality.

[Marrah_G]

89. Really, you are going to scold him?

You are going to call his standing up for his human rights "yammering"?

But it's all okay if you insult him and then say "sorry, that is not meant as a slight".

Unfuckingbelievable

[Ash_F]

101. Catholics aren't going anywhere, sorry. /nt

[Marrah_G]

111. Your post was nasty, insulting and offensive

[theHandpuppet]

95. Not meant as a slight?

I'm deleting my first response. You're too insulting to bother with.

[Ash_F]

100. By all means continue being angry.

[dbackjon]

114. I don't want to eliminate the Catholic Church

I want to eliminate the BIGOTRY in the Catholic Church.


Your yammering is only insulting and has no place on a progressive forum.

[Ash_F]

129. Judging by the responses to your posts elsewhere in this thread...

...you don't seem to be repping your cause with great effect. Maybe it is time for some introspection?

[Bluenorthwest]

137. That is a strange claim considering that in Argentina Francis used marriage equality as his

platform for delivering diatribes against gay people. Argentina passed marriage equality in spite of that nasty old bigot's hard work to stop it. He said gay couples are 'an attack on God' and he said that adoption by gay parents in 'child abuse'. Child abuse, he says even as his own peers are indicted and convicted for horrific crimes against children. Using innocents to cover the guilt of one's own company is a disgusting and amoral action, and that's what this vein and shallow man did to make himself famous and get his big white robes. He libeled and lied his way to the Vatican.

[theHandpuppet]

146. Oh why bring up the truth at a time like this?

Haul out the fainting couch, folks. Your kindly old Pope has successfully fashioned a career from being a proselytizing hatemonger. We won't ever know how many GLBT folks have been shunned, made homeless, assaulted, jailed, committed suicide et al as the result of his own home-bottled brand of poison but we don't keep such statistics. It's such an unpleasantry.

[Humanist_Activist]

93. What attempt? This reiterates the Catechism that has been in place for 30+ years...

what is changing here?

[Ash_F]

102. That could be one takeaway

If you want to put it through an extremely critical microscope. I wouldn't say you are necessarily wrong.

But overwhelmingly most people are going to look at that statement and that headline and think 'Pope says don't hate gays'.

Do you disagree?

[Humanist_Activist]

121. The past 3 popes always said don't hate the gays, but to them...

discriminating against gays isn't hating them, its "loving them" by showing them their sinful ways and trying to discourage those ways. In other words, oppress gays now so that they have a good eternal afterlife in the future, one that is unproven, I might add.

[Ash_F]

130. Maybe, but this is the most overt statement in my recollection. /nt

[Arugula Latte]

142. Too bad this sicko church has caused untold suffering for millions over centuries.

[Marrah_G]

85. Let's not cheer for someone being a little less of a bigot

To do so is really offensive. It's like someone being slightly less of a racist.

[Ash_F]

87. I don't think it is so much cheering as it is relief

That he is not telling his followers LGBT people should burn in hell.

[Marrah_G]

88. Actually he was- except if they live a celibate life

[trotsky]

122. Bingo!

"If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will"

This is code for "as long as they don't actually engage in any kind of loving, sexual relationship to fulfill their lives."

[dbackjon]

117. Yes he did - unless we stay in the closet, and don't have sex

Only a bigot would think that is ok.

[Humanist_Activist]

92. I don't see it as him being "slightly less bigoted" he just isn't as...

offensive, at least not now, a few years ago, when he was a Cardinal, it was different, now he's Pope, and so is using slightly softer rhetoric, but this doesn't mean their will be any change in how the church regards homosexuals, indeed, it reaffirms the previous beliefs.

[theHandpuppet]

94. At a time when GLBT citizens and women are fighting for their very lives and rights...

These incessant Pope rallies feel like a slap in the face.

[Safetykitten]

90. One sentence, now he's good to go for about five years till his next gay "kinda maybe".

[grantcart]

98. Is the Pope Catholic?

[joshcryer]

103. Really DU? He condemned the evil "gay lobby."

Yep, that's right, he condemned the evil gay lobby that wants to make everyone gay.

What a fucking joke. Guy postures for the poor and he's celebrated.

[DonCoquixote]

104. then attack the anti gay policy

and do it ex catherdra, so that no pope will be able to undo it short of calling you some Avignon anti pope!

[theHandpuppet]

105. Cardinal Dolan was just on the Today Show

He was interviewed about the Pope's recent statements. Admitted that there has been no change in policy, just what he called "a change in tone". He reiterated that there will be no gay priests, no women priests, no gay marriage, and that homosexuality is immoral.

Can we all get a big ol' cheer now?

[dbackjon]

118. No progressive should ever cheer the Pope

He is a bigot, plain and simple.

[DeSwiss]

108. Who are you to judge anyone, indeed?

- The book says no one is to judge anyone. PERIOD. EVER. Funny how ya'll forgot that for the past 2000 or so years.......

http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-1.htm
http://biblehub.com/luke/6-37.htm
http://biblehub.com/luke/6-41.htm
http://biblehub.com/john/8-7.htm
http://biblehub.com/romans/2-1.htm
http://biblehub.com/romans/14-10.htm
http://biblehub.com/romans/14-13.htm
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/4-5.htm
http://biblehub.com/james/4-11.htm

[burnodo]

156. That's what I've always been told

God will be the only judge, yet god followers judge all the time.

[xfundy]

131. Bullshit.

He went on to judge gay people who actually want to live their lives naturally.

This was a bullshit PR move, meant to soften that richest-group-in-the-world's image. Just a new package for old shit, as usual.

[Sissyk]

135. Wait, this is nothing that previous

popes have not said over and over again. "love" the sinner, "hate" the sin.

The pope is not giving any ground whatsoever here. He still believes that homosexual acts are sinful. He is not going to change his mind about that. Again, this is nothing new.

"Who am I to judge him", he ask? Nobody. Nofuckingbody in my book.

[PM Martin]

140. True. The Bishop of Rome and his criminal Cardinals

are in no position to judge gays. Indeed.

[Amonester]

149. Then he just ought to tell the catholic school who fired the teacher

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014554969

to ask for forgiveness and give his job back.

There.Is.No.Other.Alternative.There.

Is he the boss or not?

[Amonester]

150. Is Francis The 'Boss' or Not???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014551170

If he really is the 'Boss' then he must tell them to pray for their sins (of judging the teacher and firing him).

There.Is.No.Alternative.There.

Either he is the 'Boss' or he isn't...

[madrchsod]

151. unfortunately he doesn't have the time make lasting changes

at least he's opening a dialog about the church`s position on homosexuality. he finally admitted that the christ did`t condemn his definition of what we now call gay men.

if the church decides to actually join the 21st century maybe they will finally accept all people as jesus asked us to do.