Israel approves another 900 settler homes.

[another_liberal]

Source: Al Jazeera

Jerusalem's municipality has approved 942 new illegal settlement units in the Occupied East Jerusalem, a local official said, on the eve of the scheduled resumption of talks with the Palestinians. The units are in addition to the 1,200 settlement homes approved by Israel on Sunday, in a move that has angered the Palestinians and drawn criticism from the international community. "The Jerusalem municipality has approved a construction plan for 942 homes in Gilo," an existing illegal settlement in East Jerusalem, municipal councillor Yosef Pepe Alalu said.

On Monday, US Secretary of State John Kerry said that the recent flap over illegal Israeli settlement announcements likely would not derail talks, which are scheduled to resume this week. Kerry, on a trip to Colombia, sought to neutralise the atmosphere in the Middle East, noting that the settlement plans were "to some degree expected," and calling for both sides to resolve their major issues. "We have known that there was going to be a continuation of some building in certain places, and I think the Palestinians understand that," the chief US diplomat said in Bogota.

Palestinians denounced the settlement plan, which both Washington and the European Union said was illegal and detrimental to peace efforts. The Secretary of State urged Palestinians "not to react adversely" to Israel's announcement of new illegal settlement buildings, stressing the need to return to the negotiating table. The last talks in 2010 broke down on the issue of illegal settlements, which are illegal under international law. But he added: "I think one of the announcements or maybe one of them was outside of that level of expectation, and that's being discussed right now."

(snip)

Palestinian officials criticised the settlement announcement as a move aimed at "preventing" peace talks. "It is clear that the Israeli government is deliberately attempting to sabotage US and international efforts to resume negotiations by approving more settlement units three days before the... Palestinian-Israeli meeting," Palestinian negotiator Mohammed Shtayeh said. Russia described the Israeli move as "a counterproductive step that complicates the atmosphere of the talks". But a spokesman for Netanyahu insisted that the new settlement units were "in areas that will remain part of Israel in any possible future peace agreement."

(snip)

Read more: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/201381355044730911.html

---

Wasn't everything supposed to be on the table at these new peace talks? One assumes that would include, "The final status of Jerusalem?" Now it appears that the question of who will occupy and govern the whole of that ancient City, sacred to both Judaism and Islam, has already been finalized, unilaterally.

[oberliner]

1. These are in East Jerusalem

I know technically the international community considers neighborhoods in East Jerusalem to be settlements, but I think there is a significant difference between a place like Gilo and a settlement like Itamar which is located deep within the West Bank.

A place like Gilo will probably end up being part of Israel through land swaps with the Palestinians (predominately Jewish neighborhoods swapped for predominately non-Jewish ones).

In the Clinton proposal, for example, Gilo was agreed to be part of Israel.

So while I find this to be problematic, I think it would be useful to have language that distinguishes between a place like Gilo and a settlement that is in the middle of the West Bank and that would have to be withdrawn in the context of any peace deal.

[another_liberal]

2. What about the Palestinians' long-stated desire to make East Jerusalem the capital of their State?

Israel only occupied East Jerusalem during the "Six Day War" of 1967, in the same illegal land grab that saw them occupy the West Bank, so why should it be considered any more certain to become Israel's in a final peace agreement than any other piece of Palestinian territory?

[oberliner]

4. I think it is still feasible

I don't think that ceding Jewish neighborhoods in E. Jerusalem to Israel (while asking Israel to cede non-Jewish ones in W. Jerusalem to the new Palestinian state) would preclude that from happening.

If you read Bill Clinton's autobiography, he has a section about how he sat down with a map of Jerusalem and went neighborhood by neighborhood trying to find a way to divide East and West in a way that would be acceptable to both parties. Not an easy task, granted, but do-able with some painful compromises on both sides.

With respect to Israel only occupying East Jerusalem "in the same illegal land grab that saw them occupy the West Bank" - I would respectfully disagree with that assessment.

I mean, there are clearly parts of East Jerusalem (the Jewish Quarter, for example) that were illegally occupied by Jordan in 1948, depopulated of Jews, and treated with a complete lack of respect to Jewish holy sites, to say the least.

You point out above that Jerusalem is important religiously to both Judaism and Islam - I would note that all of the areas that are significant religiously to Judaism are in East Jerusalem.

[azurnoir]

5. What about the Moroccan Quarter of East Jerusalem?

exactly in what part of the city was that located again? Didn't Israel raze the entire Quarter along with a 12th century mosque 3 days after the 6 day war ended?

[another_liberal]

7. "Painful compromises . . ."

I'm afraid you may be right about the "painful" part, but a "compromise" requires both sides to make sacrifices. Thus far Israel's government has been singularly unwilling to accept any of much importance. Nevertheless, your point of view (should it be adopted by both sides) at least holds out hope of a way forward. If on the other hand Israel insists on issuing more and more building permits for land belonging to the Palestinians, these peace talks will be over before they really begin.

BTW: Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but wasn't the "Jewish quarter" of East Jerusalem you speak of already a part of Jordan? I was under the impression it was indeed Jordanian territory, and that the Jewish residents had been living there under Jordanian rule for some time. You are correct that the area's Jewish population was expelled after what the Palestinians call their "Nakba." Of course there was certainly a lot of that same thing happening to Palestinian people in areas of Israeli control.

[Scootaloo]

8. Yes, of course you would find it useful

But it wouldn't be truthful.

Your argument is thus: "Well, Israel has decided that this part of a place that isn't Israel is in fact Israel, and so they get to claim it."

Is Gilo within Israel's borders? No, it's not. Israel does not get to say that it is their land. Palestine is not obligated to negotiate for the removal of a squatter camp full of criminals, much less obligated to just accept the demands of Israel as pertains to territory that does not belong to Israel.

Just because Israel wants something does not mean it is entitled to have it, much less entitled to take it. This seems to be where you and other "Liberal Zionists" have difficulty.

[Joey Liberal]

3. Israel wants land, not peace

[azurnoir]

6. Initially East Jerusalem was to under international control that was scuttled when

Israeli's murdered the UN negotiator Bernadotte Folke on September 17 1948, one of the murders went on to become Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Shamir

[marble falls]

10. Menachem Begin was a member of the Stern Gang and a terrorist.....

http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html

[oberliner]

20. Arafat was a terrorist too

Gotta make peace with someone.

[The Stranger]

21. But Begin and the Sturn Gang were much better terrorists.

That is to say, they were better at being terrorists.

[oberliner]

22. Well that's definitely not true

Arafat and the PLO were much better at being terrorists than Begin and the Stern Gang. And over a much more significant amount of time.

[marble falls]

24. You're joking. Stern Gang ethnicly cleared Palistine and created Israel. The PLO never ....

accomplished any sort real Palestine.

[marble falls]

9. Your tax dollars at work.......

Israel gets more US aid than any other country.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm

[another_liberal]

11. Makes one marvel . . .

The amount of aid Israel gets from us, in a number of different forms, makes one marvel at the fact we never use a threat of cutting it off to pressure their government into some modification of its behavior?

[marble falls]

13. GHWB threatened to offset his military package for whatever the Israelis spent on ....

settlements one year.

[oberliner]

19. They pour most of that back into the US economy

Unlike some of the other folks on the top ten list (Pakistan, for instance), the Israeli government spends most of that money buying American-made products (in fact, they are required to do so).

[marble falls]

23. Pakistan does exactly what the Israelis do: they buy US weapons. What GHWB was pointing....

out is that $10B buys "necessary" weapons and Israel uses money from their budgets freed up from "necessary" defense purchases to build west bank housing. The 1% get the benefit of any spending on weapons from a bloated highly unnecessary tax payer subsidized defense industry. Its not like they are importing consumer goods or medical equipment and medicines. There is no bright side to the US supporting west bank expansion that dislocates even more Palestinians.

[Harmony Blue]

12. The more land Israel assimilates

the more likely they are accelerating the process where a Jewish State will no longer exist. In a cruel twist of fate they are diminishing the possibility of Israel remaining a Jewish State 50 years from now.

[oberliner]

18. There is no additional land involved here

We are talking about Gilo, which most likely will end up part of Israel in any peace deal.

[cpwm17]

29. There will never be any peace deal

It's all one country already. Israel continues to prove that fact by building on land that is on the other side of the Green Line. There's no turning back.

As long as members of the one religion that is in power continue to treat folks that are members of the wrong religion so badly, Israel/Palestine will continue to be a criminal Apartheid-state.

[bravenak]

33. +1

[Grins]

14. "Israel shoots down rocket targeting resort city Eilat"

Title of another thread on this site today.

And they wonder why....

[oberliner]

17. Building apartments in E. Jerusalem is justification for shooting rockets at Eilat?

That is messed up.

[oberliner]

16. Building an apartment in East Jerusalem is the equivalent of raping a tourist?

That is one disturbed analogy.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

25. Governments calmly talking about allowing crimes

is the take away message.

Did your Mommy not allow you to read A Modest Proposal, by Jonathan Swift, in middle school, because it was too "disturbing"?

[Mosby]

26. jury thought so also - 5-1 hide.

[bravenak]

27. Gotta prevent those peace talks somehow.

It works every time.

[another_liberal]

28. Piss the Palestinians off enough, and they will always walk out.

Then you can claim, "Hey, what can we do? They just won't negotiate."

[bravenak]

30. True dat.

It like the worst kept secret.

[Bragi]

31. I think I know this process

1. Talks announced

2. New settlements announced/started

3. Obscure Palestinian group fires a few missiles into Israeli sand

4. Talks cancelled

5. Israel bombs Gaza

6. Israel bombs Lebanon

Did I miss anything?

[bravenak]

32. Winner winner chicken dinner!

You have gotten it right I think. Maybe that's why Kerry seems not to be kissin ass right now. He knows the process and he's getting too old for this madness.

[bravenak]

34. Whoa!

I think you may be psychic.http://www.democraticunderground.com/113446180

[Bragi]

35. See!

That may look like hitting sand to us, but it could well be a direct hit on a future densely-populated settlement, thus demanding a fulsome response before it's too late.

[bravenak]

36. An immediate solution for a future problem.

They're conservatives. I expect nothing less.