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onehandle

(51,122 posts)
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 10:21 AM Oct 2013

France in the NSA's crosshair : phone networks under surveillance

Source: Le Monde

The future will perhaps tell us one day why France has remained so discreet in comparison with Germany or Brazil, for example, after the first revelations about the extent of the American electronic espionage programmes in the world as revealed by Edward Snowden, the ex-employee of an NSA (National Security Agency) sub-contractor. France was also concerned and today has at its disposition tangible proof that its interests are targeted on a daily basis.
According to the documents retrieved from the NSA database by its ex-analyst, telephone communications of French citizens are intercepted on a massive scale. Le Monde has been able to obtain access to documents which describe the techniques used to violate the secrets or simply the private life of French people. Some elements of information about this espionage have been referred to by Der Speigel and The Guardian, but others are, to date, unpublished.

Amongst the thousands of documents extracted from the NSA by its ex-employee there is a graph which describes the extent of telephone monitoring and tapping (DNR – Dial Number Recognition) carried out in France. It can be seen that over a period of thirty days – from 10 December 2012 to 8 January 2013, 70,3 million recordings of French citizens' telephone data were made by the NSA. This agency has several methods of data collection. According to the elements obtained by Le Monde, when a telephone number is used in France, it activates a signal which automatically triggers the recording of the call. Apparently this surveillance system also picks up SMS messages and their content using key words. Finally, the NSA apparently stores the history of the connections of each target – or the meta-data.

This espionage is listed under the programme US-985D. The precise explanation of this acronym has not been provided, to date, by the Snowden documents nor by the former members of the NSA. By way of comparison, the acronyms used by the NSA for the same type of interception targeting Germany are US-987LA and US-987LB. According to some sources, this series of numbers corresponds to the circle referred to by the United States as the 'third party', to which belong France, Germany but also Austria, Poland or again Belgium. 'The second party' concerns the English-speaking countries historically close to Washington: the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand – this group is known by the name the 'five eyes'. 'The first party' concerns the sixteen American secret services of which today the NSA has become the most important, according to a senior official from the French Intelligence community.

Read more: http://www.lemonde.fr/technologies/article/2013/10/21/france-in-the-nsa-s-crosshair-phone-networks-under-surveillance_3499741_651865.html

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ucrdem

(15,720 posts)
3. More of the same basically.
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 11:19 AM
Oct 2013

Our intel outfits eavesdrop, quelle surprise. So do theirs. What's new is "le journaliste" Greenwald posing for a few French fotos.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
7. I seriously doubt that the French government wastes its taxpayers' money collecting
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 02:47 PM
Oct 2013

70 million bits of data on personal, business and government calls in the US and other countries.

No way. They are smarter than that. They know how to figure out what is going on without all that paraphernalia.

This NSA spying program is a boondoggle of enormous proportions. Some of it is useful but for the most part it is is a huge waste of money. Meanwhile, we are still burning fossil fuels and ruining the planet.

We are not setting our priorities in a sensible way. It's a problem of values.

How does the fact that we read the e-mails of leaders of our allied countries help keep us safe?

I think it does precisely the opposite. This is particularly true of the French and Germans who I know, having lived in those countries, pride themselves on the alliances they have with the US and with Canada in particular.

ucrdem

(15,720 posts)
8. I wouldn't be so sure. M Sarkozy seems to have had no trouble deploying French intel
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 03:03 PM
Oct 2013

to carry out unsavory operations, including whacking political rivals while they were on the US soil. L'affaire DSK comes to mind but that same spring there was also an influential socialist prof, Richard Desoings, who died under dubious circumstances in a NYC hotel:

Prominent French Academic Found Naked And Dead In New York Hotel Room
Adam Taylor Apr. 4, 2012, 5:04 AM

AP - Richard Descoings, a well-known French academic, has been found dead in a New York hotel room on Tuesday afternoon, Reuters reports.

53-year-old Descoings, director of the prestigious Institut d'Etudes Politiques de Paris (aka "Sciences Po&quot and a member of France's Council of State, had been due to attend a Columbia University conference but never appeared. Staff at midtown's Michelangelo Hotel were alerted by members of the conference, and went to the room twice, first leaving after believing they heard snoring.

http://www.businessinsider.com/richard-descoings-dead-new-york-science-po-2012-4


Yes, this is speculation, and I have no proof that Sarko was behind this or any other crime, and there were several, but the crazy cloud mysteriously lifted once Sarko left the scene. Until SoS Kerry turned up in Paris with a Middle East peace plan in his portfolio, that is.
 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
9. "They know how to figure out what is going on without all that paraphernalia."
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 03:12 PM
Oct 2013

Seriously??

France 'has vast data surveillance' - Le Monde report
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23178284

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
11. The size of it is nowhere near the size of the US program.
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 03:53 PM
Oct 2013

The paper alleges the data is being stored on three basement floors of the DGSE building in Paris. The secret service is the French equivalent of Britain's MI6.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23178284

Three basement floors. Not like an entire huge fort in Utah.

Le Monde reported that they had already investigated and reported on the French program.

Do you have any evidence that France has the communications of our government under surveillance? I haven't heard of that.

I do not approve of what France is doing to its citizens, but then France does not have our Bill of Rights. The government has not entered into a covenant with citizens that is quite like ours.

Religious freedom is also defined to permit what we would consider barriers to the free practice of religion. But I would be surprised if France snoops on our government and businesses in the US the way we are snooping on theirs.

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
4. Amazing...
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 11:45 AM
Oct 2013

The part I find most disconcerting is that the collection of data has become the goal, rather than the purpose for the collection.

How in the world can anyone sift thru all that data in search of some information? Sure, after the fact they can point to exactly where the dots appeared but impossible to do ahead of time.

And even more so when they people who are actually being searched for know exactly what's going on...

and know exactly how to hide inside that system.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
6. Computers are programmed to sift throught it I suspect.
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 02:41 PM
Oct 2013

People don't do the sifting. They look at the results of the sifting.

But why? So that we can blackmail people? So that we can steal trade and industrial secrets?

Just 'cause? Why in the world do this? So we have an electronic record after we have completely despoiled the earth and the only trace remaining of us millions of years from now is this electronic record? We don't need to wiretap it to achieve that goal. It's all out there endlessly apparently. And if the computers all break down, it will be lost.

Is this just a full employment scheme? Well, this will keep these nosy computer types busy?

What is the point?

 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
10. I remember that nut who tried to bomb an airliner going to Detroit
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 03:51 PM
Oct 2013

in Christmas 2009...I remember a couple of overlooked news stories at the time where journalists asked why the would-be bomber wasn't caught despite a number of intelligence red flag in the NSA system (including a warning from the kid's own father)...The NSA response in so many words was there is just way too much information coming in nonstop from too many sources for them to ever efficiently process, even if they doubled the number of analysts...

Of course, stories like this over the years (along with that excellent series by the WaPo about an entire burgeoning city in Northern VA of new private companies dedicated to nothing but information gathering) were the puzzle pieces illustrating NSA overreach to anyone who was paying attention at the time...

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
12. The problem is that we have outsourced and exported all the ordinary work, so people
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 03:58 PM
Oct 2013

resort to these crazy pastimes to "earn" a living. I love puzzles too. Working puzzles is a great hobby. The people doing all this surveillance need to study real science and learn to cure disease or do something useful. We could solve our environmental problems and cure a lot of diseases if only we spent the money on those efforts instead of on surveillance. The whole world would be better if we did that.

We could even find better ways to fight terrorism if we applied some of the brainpower being used on these gigantic surveillance programs to study what makes these people click.

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