White House Says ‘All Nations’ Spy, Vows to Review Espionage Tactics.

[dipsydoodle]

Source: Ria Novosti

WASHINGTON, October 21 (RIA Novosti) – The White House on Monday brushed off French outrage over a report in Le Monde newspaper that said the US National Security Agency (NSA) had intercepted tens of millions of phone calls made by French citizens, saying “all nations” engage in espionage activities and vowing to review the way it spies on others.

The United States “gathers foreign intelligence of the type gathered by all nations,” Caitlin Hayden, spokeswoman for the National Security Council, said at the White House after France summoned the US ambassador to Paris to explain the allegations in Le Monde – that the United States had “intercepted on a massive scale” telephone communications made by French citizens and companies.

>

The report also said that, among the United States’ European allies, France was a top target for US intelligence gathering, along with Germany and Britain.

>

State Department Spokeswoman Marie Harf addressed the French concerns at Monday’s daily news briefing, “Right now, we’re undertaking a review to determine what the best ways are to gather intelligence and what the balance should be,” Harf said.

Read more: http://en.ria.ru/world/20131022/184281954/White-House-Says-All-Nations-Spy-Vows-to-Review-Espionage-Tactics.html

---

Obviously got a short term memory problem given this threat was only issued 4 weeks ago :

EU threatens to halt terrorist fund tracking deal with US.

Anger continues to spread across Brussels over allegations that the United States has been spying on European Union citizens.

The latest public attack came on Tuesday when EU lawmakers called for the suspension of a controversial financial data sharing agreement between the European Union (EU) and the U.S. aimed at tracking terrorists' funds, after revelations that the U.S. tapped international bank transfer information of citizens in the 28-nation bloc.

European politicians were angered at the explosive reports revealed in German newspaper Spiegel, showing that the U.S. authorities are monitoring personal money transfer information, including bank and credit card transactions, raising further tension with Washington

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101064891

[Rain Mcloud]

1. So when our friend and neighbor jump off a cliff

then we would be crazy not to do it too.
Puh-Leez!

[geek tragedy]

2. The French huffing and puffing over this is pretty amusing.

If anyone thinks the French didn't know we spy on French citizens, or that they're not spying on people inside the US, I have a quarter in New Orleans to sell you.

[MannyGoldstein]

5. Have you compared their spying budget to ours?

A flea fart next to a hurricane.

[geek tragedy]

6. Do you really think they're surprised to learn that the US

is spying on people inside France?

The US spies on everyone outside Brits, Aussies and a few others.

[MannyGoldstein]

8. Hmmm. We all know that the Mafia is up to no good.

So when they're caught, it's unfair to prosecute them?

[geek tragedy]

11. On a scale of 1-10, how shocked would you be to learn

that the French government spies on the US government and people inside the United States?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/07/05/french_surveillance_program_european_nation_has_similar_spying_program_as.html

The NSA’s once-secret surveillance program unsurprisingly has company in Europe. French newspaper Le Monde reported yesterday that France has a secret electronic surveillance apparatus that relies on many of the same tactics as the American programs.

Le Monde wrote that the program focuses on French computers and phone communications between people both in the country and abroad. Companies like Facebook, Twitter, Google, Microsoft, and Yahoo were all implicated in the paper’s report. Terming the program "French Big Brother,” the newspaper warned readers that "all of our communications are spied on."

The revelation comes after French President François Hollande condemned the United States’ secret surveillance of communications with foreign allies—a rebuke that now seems, as the New York Times amusingly put it, “somewhat hollow.”

[JDPriestly]

22. So, let's have an international protocol that puts an end to all of it.

Let's make it a huge violation of international law for any country to spy on electronic communications without a warrant based on probable cause obtained for each specific line spied upon based on particular information indicating that the surveillance is necessary. Let's allow nations to be informed before their citizens are placed under surveillance. That should take care of it.

It's the scope and the apparent lack of probable cause for this massive surveillance that is the problem.

[geek tragedy]

23. Sure, we can call it the "No spying on terrorists allowed act" nt

[alfredo]

57. The French intel agencies are pretty good.

[mike_c]

3. this is not the same spying that "all nations" do....

This point has been made repeatedly, and is routinely ignored as "off message" by the administration, but there is a big difference between "spying" to ascertain non-allies' military and industrial capacity or their policy deliberations, and indiscriminately hoovering up data and communications from private citizens. What the NSA and other intel agencies is doing is inexcusable. It is NOT spying in any internationally acceptable sense.

[Blue_Tires]

10. Why not eliminate spying, surveillance, etc. altogether?

There is NO such thing as "internationally acceptable" spying; it's just one of those fluid definitions that entirely depend on who's doing the spying and who's getting spied on...

[ehcross]

56. Where were you on 9/11?

Why not eliminate spying, surveillance, etc. altogether?

To start with, if surveillance were eliminated the U.S. more than any other country would be subject to all kinds of attacks from its enemies around the world. If you don't believe the U.S. has enemies, think again. Just remember 9/11.

[brisas2k]

60. You mean the terrorist attack caused by your own government?

you mean, the 911 caused by 19 Saudis and yemeni terrorist, out of which 15 of them entered with visas issued by a CIA's consular officer in Jetta, Saudi Arabia? Where were you?

[Blue_Tires]

64. So if outright elimination isn't the solution

what is?

[geek tragedy]

12. Maybe not all nations, but the French do exactly the same thing

The NSA’s once-secret surveillance program unsurprisingly has company in Europe. French newspaper Le Monde reported yesterday that France has a secret electronic surveillance apparatus that relies on many of the same tactics as the American programs.

Le Monde wrote that the program focuses on French computers and phone communications between people both in the country and abroad. Companies like Facebook, Twitter, Google, Microsoft, and Yahoo were all implicated in the paper’s report. Terming the program "French Big Brother,” the newspaper warned readers that "all of our communications are spied on."

The revelation comes after French President François Hollande condemned the United States’ secret surveillance of communications with foreign allies—a rebuke that now seems, as the New York Times amusingly put it, “somewhat hollow.”

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/07/05/french_surveillance_program_european_nation_has_similar_spying_program_as.html

Quelle shocke!

[mike_c]

44. and it's just as unacceptable as the U.S. surveillance program....

eom

[ehcross]

55. Maybe not all nations, but the French do exactly the same thing

All major world powers are known to operate a secret surveillance program, which is, incidentally, a leftover from the cold war. And those programs are more useful for commercial intelligence than security.

While the above fact is well known, it is really irrelevant whether one nation believes or has confirmed, that another nation is reading their people's emails. But some heads of state are unable to accept the fact and, as the great majority does, learns to live with the nuisance. After all, no serious government would risk transmitting its secrets on an open line. Encoding and other systems easily guarantee the required confidentiality.

The matter is really a subject of pride. as most countries try to avoid their communications being intercepted, and use proper encoding to resolve the problem. A simple solution is usually at hand, without a head of state having to make an international show out of an everyday practice.

[reddread]

4. so it will be just fine when other nations do the same thing

taking simple measures to invade the private communications of our government?
comme ci comme ca

[geek tragedy]

7. They're already doing it, and will continue to do it

whether we think it's fine or not.

[reddread]

9. then why is Ed Snowden an issue

help me out here

[geek tragedy]

13. Here or abroad?

The French are getting in a public huff for domestic political reasons.

[reddread]

17. thank you

I desperately needed a laugh today!

[JDPriestly]

19. It's the vast scope of our program that troubles them.

And then the fact that we are picking up the content of communications in some maybe all cases.

This is an obscene program, and what they are looking for is unclear, but it may be information with which they can blackmail people.

That is one of the things that is so troubling about this program.

It is obscene.

[geek tragedy]

21. The only reason the French govt would be upset is because they think

spying on French citizens is their turf, not ours.

[reddread]

27. and what upsets decent Americans is unreasonable search and seizure

hope thats clear enough
leaving out unreasonable expectations of privacy rights as guaranteed by certain states.

http://oag.ca.gov/privacy

[geek tragedy]

30. Sure, we have a right to demand that no one spy on us.

The French are demanding exclusive rights to spy on their citizens.

[reddread]

32. what, you worry?

We must extend our constitutional beliefs overseas.
No doubt there are many, many treaties and conventions which make this behavior much worse than illegal.
what a shame some people cant find better work.

[geek tragedy]

34. No we don't need to extend our constitutional beliefs overseas.

I want our government to spy on terrorists in Yemen and Pakistan and Somalia.

And wherever else they can be found.

[reddread]

38. good luck with that

they are spying on US. We are the enemy, and when their lips move and the words that come out, all that is intended for fools.
Perfectly good intelligence that would prevent terrorist attacks GETS IGNORED.
You have more interest in overseas activities?
faith?
wow.

[geek tragedy]

39. "perfectly good intelligence" = "results of effective spying" nt

[Blue_Tires]

31. "Decent Americans" should be upset about spying and covert warfare

used as tools of foreign policy, period...

[reddread]

33. ya think?

what exactly are you suggesting?

[Blue_Tires]

37. I'm just trying to correct the fallacy some have

that it's possible to reform spying, or that everything will be all right if it's just limited to the 'bad guys'

[reddread]

40. oh yes, the simplest tools of technology will not go back in Pandora's box

but dont let history inconvenience you.
No matter how many times the US military lets its own soldiers die despite solid information and/or simple security measures,
no matter how many Americans die on US soil, keep holding on to that incredible faith that maybe next time...

[Blue_Tires]

43. So you're saying there is such a thing as legit surveillance and spying?

Then you've lost any moral high ground to demand change...Where is the line of what is legitimate and what isn't? Because there's always some situation sooner or later which falls outside the lines and the moment you make a concession to it, good night...The NSA crossed whatever line years ago and never looked back...Why were so many people silent years ago when this thing was CLEARLY growing way beyond the bounds of any proper controls?

[reddread]

45. eh, what? Is that your hand up my butt?

speak for yourself, ok?
I still have some command of the language.
you are making shit up.

[Blue_Tires]

46. My apologies then..

Let's backtrack: What have I made up? If I misunderstood something, I'll correct it here and now...

[reddread]

48. sure

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=627654

[Blue_Tires]

50. here you go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=627684

Am I wrong?

[geek tragedy]

35. Yes, all decent people oppose spying on terrorists or otherwise

trying to inconvenience them.

We should just allow them to massacre people and then send them apology notes for whatever their grievance is.

[reddread]

41. i cant tell, are the words twisted?

or is it just you?

[geek tragedy]

42. the person is stating that we should never spy on anyone.

Obviously, if we're not going to try to discover terrorist plos overseas, we're not going to make an attempt to thwart them.

[reddread]

47. youre right about that, although maybe you dont mean to be?

hence Operation Gladio

http://wikispooks.com/wiki/Operation_Gladio

sure makes those relentless car bombings in Iraq jibe with US policy there.
Destabilize, keep the price and supply lines of oil right where the PTB want em.

[Blue_Tires]

51. Gladio actually proves my point

thanks

[reddread]

52. thanks for elaborating

because otherwise there might still be some confusion.
hahahahahha

[Blue_Tires]

63. Glad you find all this funny

After just a month here, I can tell you have a bright future...

[Blue_Tires]

49. I know on the surface it sounds silly and absolutist

but given all the energy I've spent thinking about this issue, it's the only proper solution I can come up with...Even if the Senate mandates a full reorganization of the NSA, I don't want it to be a cosmetic dog-and-pony show where the NSA just changes some program names and titles on doors...I also don't want positive changes lasting only as long as the next president or NSA head...

We're probably never going to see another real, national army versus national army fought by the U.S. in this lifetime...Covert warfare is the future, and is expected to play a much, much bigger role in foreign policy due to it's ease, low-profile secrecy, deniability, and no media asking questions until long after the whole thing is over, so there's never a hit in PR or approval ratings...I personally don't want to see this future, because it is the NSA/CIA/contractors which fuel covert warfare, and since one hand (White House) may or may not always know what the other is doing, it's not that far of a stretch for me to think that a sufficiently motivated head of the NSA could become the de facto ruler of this nation...

[reddread]

54. heres the deal, take it or leave it

the National Security State that was officially created in 1947
DESTROYED our democratic society, a little at a time, until we folded entirely.
If you actually feel safer under the control and oversight of these liars and killers,
thats your problem.
just the first available link on google, looks close enough to me
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=National_Security_State

[Blue_Tires]

62. I don't feel safer under them

that's the point...There's no "deal" to be made here...

Now it's YOU who's making shit up

[reddread]

65. you mean by "if"?

no, its still you.

[olddad56]

14. well, if everyone is doing it, it must be okay.

[PSPS]

16. That's right. The good old #14. "Other countries" execute adulterers too.

Worshiper/Apologist Hit Parade:

1. This is nothing new
2. I have nothing to hide
3. What are you, a freeper?
4. But Obama is better than Christie/Romney/Bush/Hitler
5. Greenwald/Flaherty/Gillum/Apuzzo/Braun is a hack
6. We have red light cameras, so this is no big deal
7. Corporations have my data anyway
8. At least Obama is trying
9. This is just the media trying to take Obama down
10. It's a misunderstanding/you are confused
11. You're a racist
12. Nobody cares about this anyway / "unfounded fears"
13. I don't like Snowden, therefore we must disregard all of this
14. Other countries do it

[Blue_Tires]

26. So what is your proposed solution to the issue?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts instead of seeing that rebuttal-free list for the umpteenth time...

[Blue_Tires]

25. I think the message is more of:

"Some people need to clean up their own houses before pointing the shit end of the stick at us and pretending their hands are clean..."

[PSPS]

15. So "other countries" record and store for future use all of my email/phone calls/internet traffic?

Sorry, pull my other finger.

By the way, you will notice that the description of this heinous activity in the French press says that telephone calls "were recorded." I guess they don't adhere to the US corporate/state media's propaganda style book that declares the word "metadata" must be included to try to obscure the true nature of what is being done (and never mind about that 250-acre data storage farm in Utah.)

This spokesliar can take their idea of "balance" and shove it up their arse.

[geek tragedy]

20. derp

The NSA’s once-secret surveillance program unsurprisingly has company in Europe. French newspaper Le Monde reported yesterday that France has a secret electronic surveillance apparatus that relies on many of the same tactics as the American programs.

Le Monde wrote that the program focuses on French computers and phone communications between people both in the country and abroad. Companies like Facebook, Twitter, Google, Microsoft, and Yahoo were all implicated in the paper’s report. Terming the program "French Big Brother,” the newspaper warned readers that "all of our communications are spied on."


The revelation comes after French President François Hollande condemned the United States’ secret surveillance of communications with foreign allies—a rebuke that now seems, as the New York Times amusingly put it, “somewhat hollow.”

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/07/05/french_surveillance_program_european_nation_has_similar_spying_program_as.html

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/04/revelations-sur-le-big-brother-francais_3441973_3224.html

[PSPS]

24. Tres bien! C'est chiffre quatorze!

Worshiper/Apologist Hit Parade:

1. This is nothing new
2. I have nothing to hide
3. What are you, a freeper?
4. But Obama is better than Christie/Romney/Bush/Hitler
5. Greenwald/Flaherty/Gillum/Apuzzo/Braun is a hack
6. We have red light cameras, so this is no big deal
7. Corporations have my data anyway
8. At least Obama is trying
9. This is just the media trying to take Obama down
10. It's a misunderstanding/you are confused
11. You're a racist
12. Nobody cares about this anyway / "unfounded fears"
13. I don't like Snowden, therefore we must disregard all of this
14. Other countries do it

[geek tragedy]

28. You have a deep emotional resentment of Obama supporters.

That doesn't make you more principled.

Note that this discussion has nothing to do with Obama.

[JDPriestly]

18. Let's hope our Congress does something to bring this program into perspective.

Four U.S. senators announced a draft bill on Wednesday that looks to rein in the U.S. surveillance program, including prohibiting the NSA's collection of phone records and preventing the tapping of Internet communications.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101064891

"The United States “gathers foreign intelligence of the type gathered by all nations,” Caitlin Hayden, spokeswoman for the National Security Council, said"

See the OP for the link.

That's evasive language. It isn't especially the type of intelligence that is in question. It is the massive amounts of information the US is collecting.

This is an obscene intrusion into people's privacy (pun if you can call it that intended). The obscenity concerns not only the likely contents of much of what they pick up with their information vacuum, but also the amount of money they are wasting on this at a time when they want to cut food stamps, Social Security, Medicare and a lot of other really important programs.

It's sheer theft from the taxpayers in order to indulge in voyeurism not all, but inevitably in part, sexual in nature.

The sheer perversion of it. And then they are examining people's finances, etc. Yet they don't seem to be using the information to collect taxes.

The ACLU suggests that they could potentially use this information to blackmail people. No doubt.

Obscene. The whole program as it is now being managed is obscene.

And there is no way they can place the internet and people's phone records under surveillance without finding out all sorts of potentially embarrassing information about their personal lives. Intrusive beyond belief.

[Blue_Tires]

29. The cynic in me says Congress will do jack shit at the end of the day

despite the big talk...

The dirty secret that no one wants to discuss in these threads is the fact that the 'system' employs too many people and makes too much money for a certain few...

[PeteSelman]

36. Well duh! Of course they all do it.

But we've been caught. You're not supposed to get caught.

[iandhr]

53. Thats true.

If other nations were able to hack our Presidents phone calls they would. We just got caught.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

58. All nations? So we should worry about Kiribati now?

[Ash_F]

59. Caitlin Hayden loves to role play a 8 year old. /nt

[Orsino]

61. This is the strongest possible reasonable response to being caught...

...and it's pretty goddamned weak.