Snowden Leak: The NSA Has Been Monitoring Phone Calls of 35 World Leaders

[Hissyspit]

Source: Guardian UK

The NSA Has Been Monitoring The Phone Calls Of 35 World Leaders

James Ball, The Guardian 25 minutes ago

The National Security Agency monitored the phone conversations of 35 world leaders after being given the numbers by an official in another US government department, according to a classified document provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

The confidential memo reveals that the NSA encourages senior officials in its "customer" departments, such the White House, State and the Pentagon, to share their "Rolodexes" so the agency can add the phone numbers of leading foreign politicians to their surveillance systems.

The document notes that one unnamed US official handed over 200 numbers, including those of the 35 world leaders, none of whom is named. These were immediately "tasked" for monitoring by the NSA.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-phone-calls-world-leaders-2013-10

[SoapBox]

1. As I always say Comrade Eddie...

Shut the fuck up.

As a Russian, you've got no cred..Go back to sitt'n on Putin's lap.

[Hissyspit]

4. Anybody can say shut the fuck up to anyone.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. You're embarrassed by the USA's actions, then?

It's a poor show when the response to news is "don't say it!".

[pnwmom]

25. I'm not embarrassed by his actions and I'm not naive enough

to be shocked by this. But it mucks up our diplomatic relations to have this publicized. Then the same leaders who do it to us -- like Merkel -- have to huff and puff in public about it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. 'His' actions? You blame this specifically on Obama, then?

I'd blame the USA as a whole.

"But it mucks up our diplomatic relations to have this publicized."

So it's embarrassing, then.

[brush]

36. Didn't we all just assume this years ago?

I mean those of us in the movement back in the day remember Cointelpro, and how you'd always imagine you were hearing funny hisses or whirring noises when you answered your land line phone.

We all just assumed we were being monitored and watched.

That stuff didn't just stop, especially with the technical ability available now to go international.

Of course they're doing it and will keep doing it whoever is in the White House.

And I'm betting, even if told not to.

And other countries are doing as much of it as they can as well.

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. Leaders of allied countries, such as Germany, don't expect to be treated like Cold War suspects

[brush]

51. You think they're not spying too . . .

as much as their budgets will allow?

Remember Jonathan Pollard from back in the 80s? He was spying for Israel on us.

It's nothing new.

Not saying it's right but let's not be naive, it's not gonna stop.

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. Pollard has spent decades in prison for it

The USA was not impressed. And yeah, I don't think any ally is trying to tap Obama's phone calls.

[gcomeau]

72. "And yeah, I don't think any ally is trying to tap Obama's phone calls."

You are perhaps one of the most naive people on planet earth if you actually believe that.

[geek tragedy]

75. I'd be shocked if Israel weren't trying.

Ditto just about anyone else.

[brush]

81. My point is that . . .

Israel was spying on "US".

Pollard got caught but if he was doing it you're not naive enough to think he was the only one?

And taping phones of course is not the only way to spy.

I've been around long enough to know that countries have espionage agencies for a reason. And it's sometimes it's just to keep tabs on business developments in allied companies corporations, information that can help their own businesses.

I understand that's one of the reasons Germany is upset — that information gained can provide a business advantage to US companies.

That was just reported today.

And of course Merkel has to huff and puff and act like Germany is not doing it also.

[MyNameGoesHere]

9. Comrade?

I don't hear that description often anymore used in that context. Sure on the sites I subscribe where it is an honor to be called that, but in this context it reminds me of some other iky places I visit to gauge the hatred towards socialism.

[rhett o rick]

12. Yes, dont you hate it when your denial bubble is burst? So much easier when

we thought the NSA wasnt violating the Constitution. But now we have to admit that we are willing to give up our freedoms for the promise of security. But all is not lost, we can still disparage the messenger. That's always a tool for us authoritarians.

Thank goodness for the rough tough conservatives like Gen Clapper and Gen Alexander looking out for our best interests.

[pnwmom]

26. This has nothing to do with the NSA violating our Constitution.

This is spying on other countries, not on our own people.

[rhett o rick]

42. The post I was responding to called Snowden a Russian. That is a typical

authoritarian response to a whistleblower. Disparaging Snowden does nothing to fix our problems with spy agencies run by ultra-conservatives without any oversight. We need oversight and Snowden brought it to our attention that we have little or none.

[pnwmom]

43. And Snowden's leaking info about our spying does nothing to solve the problem

of internal US surveillance.

[rhett o rick]

49. It certainly brought it attention that apparently was impossible for the

preceding whistle-blowers. I believe in having strong intelligence agencies. But as important is that they must be restrained from gaining too much power. In the right hands that power might be good, but in the wrong hands, that power could be disastrous.

[debunkthis]

109. Both are wrong

in the manner in which the programs have been implemented. The domestic spying is unconstitutional and tapping the phones of foreign heads of state as well as spying on the internal communication of foreign businesses is illegal.

[pnwmom]

110. What US laws make spying on international targets illegal? n/t

[debunkthis]

116. As I recall

there are German laws that make it a crime to tap the private telephone of Chancellor Merkel and, the last time I checked, we had an extradition treaty with Germany as well...

[pnwmom]

117. Right. We would extradite our own spies to the country

we were spying on.

[debunkthis]

119. In this case, I'm in favor of doing just that

eom

[struggle4progress]

125. Um, folk in denial bubbles about the scummy nature of the Bush gang usually don't post here

The story in the OP is about a memo from 2006

And if you will just take some time to research what was happening that year, I think you will discover that Mr Obama had not yet reached the Oval Office, which was still occupied by Mr Bush

I am indeed sorry if this revelation pops any of your own personal bubbles -- but we do all gotta live with the actual facts

[rhett o rick]

131. "The Bush Gang" is still in power in the NSA.

"And if you will just take some time to research what was happening that year, I think you will discover that Mr Obama had not yet reached the Oval Office, which was still occupied by Mr Bush " Do you think sarcasm helps your argument?

[struggle4progress]

133. The link in the OP is about things that happened in 2006 or before. Perhaps you think it's cute

to try to confuse people about who was responsible then, but I'm completely unimpressed by this now-standard Obama-bashing tactic

[rhett o rick]

136. When you have nothing to add you just have to resort to yelling "Obama-bashing".

I see no useful reason to carry on this discussion.

[JDPriestly]

13. After this, world leaders will be saying, Shut up, Comrade from America, you've got no cred . . .

You Americans let your government listen in on everybody. You've got no cred at all.

The Communists never dared listen in on as many people as the US government does. No other government has the resources or the will.

What a waste. Why is our government stooping so low? Are our leaders so stupid that they have to listen in to people's phone calls in order to know what is going on?

How many people does it take to sort through all that nonsense. You realize that includes calls about how the grandkids are doing, what ski resort they should go to this year, where they are going to eat dinner, who they are meeting for lunch, etc.? Why are the American people paying linguists, etc. to sort through all that stuff. If there were coded messages, we would miss them in the noise. It is an absurd program. It shouldn't exist.

On edit.

By doing this kind of surveillance, we are sending a message to the world that it's OK to do surveillance on friend and foe alike. Come an listen to us. Is that really the message we want to send. If we do it, why shouldn't they? Why shouldn't Al Qaeda listen in on our military for that matter if they get the means to do it?

We need an international protocol on protecting privacy in international communications, and we need the means and methods to enforce it quickly.

[frylock]

20. who the fuck are you?

if anyone needs to shut the fuck, it's you.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

55. Damn straight. n/t

[gholtron]

56. Why don't we ALL STFU

Ahhhhhh doesn't that sound better?

[frylock]

74. no, the red baiter upthread can fucking jam it

[dipsydoodle]

33. Well if Europe now ceases to play ball on SWIFT

you will of course understand especially if anything unfortunate subsquently occurs as a result.

[stupidicus]

50. he has more than you do

obviously

[ebbie15644]

2. ok I don't agree with wireless surveillance

but do we really believe these countries aren't doing the same thing?

[MyNameGoesHere]

5. A lot of these countries

kill civilians to oppress them and put down opposition. So that is ok for us as well? I mean if everyone is doing it right?

[ebbie15644]

8. That isn't what I said

I have called and emailed and signed petitions against NSA spying. I just think it's hypocritical of these other countries feigning outrage.

[JDPriestly]

16. Not to the extent that we are. The East Germans would have loved this stuff.

No. I do not think that the German government listens in to Obama's calls.

[MADem]

38. Stop making sense! It is only USA that is "evil" doncha know!!!

None of those other countries have spies--and this is true even if foreigners approach you when you are working on classified projects! Why, they're just friendly tourists, interested in you because you are such a nice person, and it's all a coincidence!! No other country would try to steal secrets from America, ever!!

Robert Hanssen was innocent, I tell ya!!!

Alderich Ames was sent up the river UNFAIRLY, poor dear!!!!

And poor widdle Anna Chapman was just a cutie patootie who was unfairly brutalized by the mean old American government!!!!

[ronnie624]

103. Where is your evidence

that the German and UK governments, allies to the US, are eavesdropping on President Obama's phone calls. The three people you referenced in your post, were spying for our government's enemies.

You're conflating spying on enemies with spying on close allies.

[MADem]

106. Enemies? Really? I guess Reagan shouldn't have bothered, then!

They all do it--you're quite naive if you think otherwise. Everyone spies on everyone else, and each other. And themselves. And it's not news. The best spies, though, don't get caught.

http://www.skynews.com.au/world/article.aspx?id=912636

http://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama?ns_campaign=editorial&ns_source=RSS_public&ns_mchannel=RSS&ns_fee=0&ns_linkname=20131024_nsa_france_spying_squarcini_dcri_hollande

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/10/18/turkey-outs-israel-spies-to-iran/3003849/


http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/politics/131023/12-governments-domestic-spying-surveillance-own-citizens

[ronnie624]

111. You have none, I see, lol. n/t

[MADem]

115. I can't help it if you won't read. nt

[ronnie624]

118. You can't help it if you can't post evidence

that the government's of our closest allies are eavesdropping on President Obama's phone calls, either, because there isn't any.

[MADem]

120. They haven't been caught. That doesn't mean they haven't done it, or tried.

You are naive if you think we're the only people in the spy game. Keep beating the America Bad Spies drum if it makes you happy; it's just not accurate.

The former French spymaster got it right, though--they all do it.

It's what nations do, they just don't like to be honest about it, and who can blame them? No one blows their cover unnecessarily.

You might try reading the links, you might actually learn something.

[ronnie624]

121. Thanks for the advise. I'll give it the consideration it merits. n/t

[Ace Acme]

79. So is it your theory that foreign surveillance of Obama's phone has been detected

and the US government is keeping quiet about it?

[Warren Stupidity]

96. If it were revealed that France, Germany, Italy or the UK were tapping Obama's phone

there would be a shitstorm of apocalyptic proportions.

[ebbie15644]

132. I think the shit storm is deserved but I also think that if they had the technology they would be

doing the same thing. My belief and I'm entitled to it

[Ash_F]

139. Either they aren't

Our they are just way way way way more competent than the US government.

Either way, it looks ugly.

[libdem4life]

3. Well, nobody said Empire was going to be easy...or even legal.

[dkf]

7. Is the NSA monitoring Obama's calls?

[rhett o rick]

14. What's to stop them? nm

[struggle4progress]

126. The fact that government employees can be as cut-throat in career matters as anyone else: blowing

the lid off unauthorized attempts, to eavesdrop on elected officials, could be a great career move at someone else's expense

Beliefs of conspiracy theorists notwithstanding, "the government" doesn't exist as single unified object

[rhett o rick]

128. So if a government employee or an employee of a contractor working for the government

speaks out about what the agency is doing, they will get promoted? Or do they threat to expose and demand a promotion?

Life would be so nice if there werent any conspiracies or at least if we pretended there werent any.

[struggle4progress]

129. What I said was: if the NSA were revealed to be involved in unauthorized wire-tapping of elected

officials, heads would roll

You asked what would keep the NSA from wiretapping the President. I responded to that question

[rhett o rick]

130. Yes heads would roll but only of the person that tried to expose the spying. It

appears to me that the NSA has no oversight to speak of. And if a lowly employee tries to expose illegal activities, it's the lowly employee that get ostracized. Many among us live in denial. Hoping their authoritarian leaders will protect them and reacting strongly to anyone that dares challenge that notion. Of course we wont find any here in DU where posters are "politically liberal".

[struggle4progress]

134. If the NSA spied on Congress, the NSA would immediately be neck-deep in shit. If the NSA spied

on POTUS -- yeah ... well ... um ... exactly who do you think sits at the top of the Executive branch?

IMO it's quite bizarre for you to regard such political realities as evidence that we live in denial about "authoritarian leaders." It shows, at least, that you jumble together various different ideas that require somewhat different forms of analysis, which is a good indication that your own analysis is careless and sloppy

I expect the idea, that whistle-blowers deserve more protection, is uncontroversial among DUers -- but that simply doesn't mean the NSA would walk away scot-free, if it were revealed to be wiretapping Congress or the President. Don't smoosh everything indiffereently together and swirl it around: that merely produces useless glop

[rhett o rick]

135. "which is a good indication that your own analysis is careless and sloppy" If my analysis

is careless and sloppy, then it should be easy to refute and you wouldnt have to resort to calling my analysis sloppy. You obviously dont wish to discuss this in a civilized manner and that is certainly your choice. Good day.

[Purveyor]

21. I'd lay money on it and everybody else in gov't to boot. eom

[davidn3600]

30. According to NSA whistleblower Russ Tice, they've been monitoring Obama since 2004

[Newsjock]

10. Began during W's term

The NSA memo seen by the Guardian was written halfway through George W Bush's second term, when Condoleezza Rice was secretary of state and Donald Rumsfeld was in his final months as defence secretary.

So now, everyone who is defending this: Is it still OK when * does it?

[Blue_Tires]

11. I still don't understand why there was scant discussion

when Manning revealed that Hilary Clinton was eavesdropping on pretty much everyone at the U.N...

[JDPriestly]

17. I for one was horrified.

[struggle4progress]

94. Because Manning didn't actually "reveal" anything like that

[CoffeeCat]

15. It's like we've gone rogue...

Seriously. If we are spying on other world leaders, we are only going to foster mistrust with countries with which we have solid, longstanding relationships.

Do we really want to piss off our allies at this time? We have tenuous and troubled relationships with many countries (China, Russia, Pakistan) and there is so much strife in the Middle East. Why would we want to piss off our strong relationships?

This is such horrible policy, if indeed we are spying on friends.

There are times that I think that the entire planet has had just about enough of us. If we continue
behaving like idiots, sooner rather than later--we could really lose a lot of power and clout. We lost respect and piss off
other countries and it could affect so much. Suddenly, the dollar doesn't look as attractive to other countries. I think
some countries are hanging on by a thread with us.

Why do this and risk economic and political instability for our entire country. Is our stature as a superpower really worth throwing away to hear what Angela Merkel is saying?


I don't care how great of a superpower you have been in the past, if you piss off enough big players--they'll
turn on you. It can happen easily.

[bucolic_frolic]

19. Our employers spy on us

Surely some listen to our work phone calls, they record most calls
when you call a company, they make us piss in a cup to stay employed ...
hasn't bothered too many Americans.

Why is it bothering world leaders? Businesses can do it, but governments can't?

[CoffeeCat]

23. We are NOT these other countries' employers, though.

First off, when you piss in a cup for an employer you obviously choose to do this, as a condition of employment. Both parties agree to this deal and are aware of the agreement.

We are spying on these countries in secret. They are not aware of this spying nor consenting to it. We are secretly spying on these countries and their leaders without their knowledge. Big breach of trust.

Secondly--there is a big difference between an employer/employee relationship and the relationships between world superpowers--too many to list. I think that is a very bizarre comparison.

[DaveJ]

28. I don't think it's such a bizarre comparison

I'm surprised how many people here have come to accept the status quo where our hair and urine is analyzed and every facet of our social activity is scrutinized continuously. Because, oh it's written down and signed (otherwise we can just live in a gutter -- that's fair). Yeah that makes it ok....? It's a situation that none of us would want to be in, but we are simply forced into through the status quo and because nobody seems to care about it anymore.

[KoKo]

31. +1,000!

[bucolic_frolic]

57. You do not obviously choose to do this

you are coerced in to doing it in the sense that if you don't do it
you are fired on the spot. It's in the contract. It is not a choice,
it is a BUSINESS MANDATE.

It is indicative of business paranoia. Yes they are correct in terms of
safety and cost, but operating in an environment of suspicion all the time
is not fun.

What if the tests are crooked? Ask the state of Massachusetts about that one.

To me, the entire drug testing issue should have been and could have been handled
in a gemtlemanly manner, which is to say, compassion. When an employee is
messing up due to drugs or alcohol, or cough medicine or sleep medication, or
caffeine or nicotine, take the employee aside and get him the medical help he or she
needs, with sanctions for non-performance, instead of firing.

It's what they would do for a pro sports athlete. It's what a mentor would do.

And incidentally, I did see an employment ad this week that said "We test for nicotine".

So if you smoke, you are history.

[christx30]

24. Because you can choose

where you work and whom you do business with. You can't choose the government or control what they do. The law, and the fact that they are heavily armed, let's them do whatever they want. Their willingness to kill allows them to compel compliance with any edict they want. Resistance is not tolerated.

[bucolic_frolic]

18. I see opportunity

Time to establish worldwide carrier pigeon and hand-to-hand pencil note service.

Nothing else is secure.

[Purveyor]

22. Typewriters Log Out PCs In Anti-Espionage Operations Amidst Wire-Tapping, Snooping Era

LONDON: Spooked by threats of wire-tapping and snooping, Indian diplomatic staff have dusted out their typewriters and have been ordered to hammer out sensitive documents on paper and not on computers, high commissioner Jamini Bhagwati said on Thursday. He said staff had been told to be careful about discussing classified information inside the embassy premises for fear of bugs planted by international security agencies.

Recent revelations made by whistle blower Edward Snowden showed that the US National Security Agency (NSA) planted bugs at the Permanent Mission of India at the United Nations and the embassy in Washington. The NSA supposedly used four different kinds of devices to spy on the Indian diplomats and military officials.

Replying to a TOI query, Bhagwati said, "No highly-classified information is discussed inside the embassy building. And it's very tedious to step out into the garden every time something sensitive has to be discussed."

Calling it a blunt force security system, Bhagwati added, "Top secret cables are never conveyed through the internet or machines with cable connections. External hard drives with tremendous amount of data storage capacity are easy to access. Therefore, top secret cables are written on the typewriter which can't be tracked."

MORE...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/internet/typewriters-log-out-pcs-in-anti-espionage-operations-amidst-wire-tapping-snooping-era/articleshow/23143534.cms

[jakeXT]

27. The Russians are doing the same, back to square one

[Purveyor]

29. I read about the Russians but couldn't find copy on it. BTW...has anyone tried to use a typewriter

lately?

I had the occasion back in the spring and what a nightmare it was without a backspace and delete function.

If you come across one sometime, sit down and give it a whirl! LOL.

[Diclotican]

37. Purveyor

Purveyor

I have one - given to me by my late father many years ago - it is a nightmare to use - but cool.. And it have backspace and delete function to boot..

But I do not use it - I use the keyboard and the computer..

Diclotican

[jakeXT]

54. Is that a typewriter where you write one line, confirm it and then it prints it ?

[Diclotican]

60. jakeXT

jakeXT

No - in fact it is far less impressive than this - all mechanic one... But I do had one of them you have pictures there, before I got my first computer...

Diclotican

[jakeXT]

53. The last time I used one was probably as a child, just for fun

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10173645/Kremlin-returns-to-typewriters-to-avoid-computer-leaks.html

[AtheistCrusader]

77. I still have a pretty nice one.

I wouldn't be surprised if you could do an audio analysis of a typewriter to scrape what is being typed. Delay between keypress and strike... specific acoustic signatures of the strike itself... Space bar is easy to distinguish. Carriage return, likewise.

We can tell the difference between a top of the line soviet era sub and a couple whales humping, I wouldn't be surprised if we can do this too.

[Ace Acme]

80. The Russians favor typewriters

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/11/russia-spies-nsa-typewriters-documents-computers/2508751/

In the wake of recent NSA spy scandals, Russia's Federal Guard Service has decided to revert to using more typewriters and paper documents, Izvestia reports. . . . [M]any critical groups, including the defense ministry, emergency situations ministry and the security services, have never switched over to electronic documents.

"From the point of view of ensuring security, any form of electronic communication is vulnerable," Nikolai Kovalev, an MP and former head of the Federal Security Service, the successor to the KGB, tells Izvestia. "Any information can be taken from computers," he says. "Of course there are means of protection, but there is no 100% guarantee they will work. So from the point of view of keeping secrets, the most primitive method is preferred: a human hand with a pen or a typewriter."

[struggle4progress]

32. Let's all get really really angry at Obama again for stuff Bush did!

Bad Obama! Bad Obama!

[JDPriestly]

44. Obama said he was not doing this.

But the NSA could be acting on its own. I do not trust that organization at all. I don't trust any of our intelligence agencies at this time.

This could be done surreptitiously without letting Obama know about it. All they have to do is get on phone number of someone close to say Merkel. Then they can get her number.

That is true of every leader in the world. Obama would not need to know about. There is no reason he would be told. The intelligence reports would not have to mention all the venues through which the intelligence was acquired. The details are for the bureaucrats.

Obama reads the short version.

[struggle4progress]

85. The memo allegedly disclosing this is dated 2006

[Psephos]

46. I voted for Obama in the belief he would put an end to Bush's nefarious actions.

And that he would rehabilitate the USA's image and foreign policy practices.

Five years into his presidency, blaming * isn't cutting it anymore.

[struggle4progress]

86. The memo allegedly disclosing this is dated 2006

[Psephos]

104. so what?

The memo stopping it could be written today.

TODAY.

[struggle4progress]

105. Mr Obama can't issue any orders changing what happened under Bush in 2006 or before

Blaming events in 2006 or earlier on Mr Obama is extraordinarily dishonest, and you know that

[Psephos]

108. lol

He could reverse the bullshit happening TODAY with a stroke of his pen TODAY.

I don't give a fuck about 2006. It's over. Get it?

[struggle4progress]

112. The thread is about something that happened in 2006 or before

[Psephos]

113. I remember people like you back in highschool.

They not only licked the boot, but also praised the flavor. (we used a different word than boot)

No, you don't get to tell me or anyone else what the thread "is about."

[struggle4progress]

124. Anybody who's interested in what's at the link in the OP actually says, should read the link

... The document notes that one unnamed US official handed over 200 numbers, including those of the 35 world leaders ... The memo, dated October 2006 ... was issued to staff in the agency's Signals Intelligence Directorate (SID) ... But the memo acknowledges that eavesdropping on the numbers had produced "little reportable intelligence" ...

I suppose you can claim that my insisting on mundane factual details, such as the actual date and actual content of documents, constitutes a high-schoolish insistence on licking boot and praising the flavor, though I myself if using such a turn of phrase would mean something rather different than "the dude insists on attending to the actual dates and actual contents of documents"

[mwooldri]

48. Bush HW Bush?

I assume this has been going on before GW Bush. Could even blame Nixon I suppose....

[struggle4progress]

87. The memo allegedly disclosing this is dated 2006

[muriel_volestrangler]

73. Strawman. No-one in the thread is blaming Obama for this.

Your kneejerk "this is an attack on Obama" reaction shows that you don't actually think about these stories at all - you just blurt out the first "Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life" defence you think of.

[struggle4progress]

89. The memo allegedly disclosing this is dated 2006

I actually bothered to check that before I posted my remark upthread: again, the memo concerns events over seven years ago, when Mr Bush was President

If you prefer, you are of course free to dislike Mr Obama. But whatever you might think of Mr Obama, it is entirely dishonest of you to characterize my observation (that this is a story from the Bush era) as a kneejerk blurt that "Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life"

And your claim that no-one in the thread is blaming Obama for this is likewise factually untrue, as anyone can check by actually reading thru the thread

[muriel_volestrangler]

90. Go ahead, point out the posts blaming Obama

Yes, plenty of us had noticed the memo was from 2006. And that may be why people aren't blaming Obama in the thread. It's what makes your attempt to make this about Obama look so bad.

"you are of course free to dislike Mr Obama"

This is your problem. You think that anyone saying your "leave Obama alone!" posts are rubbish is expressing a dislike of Obama. I'm not. I'm expressing a dislike of your posts that you haven't thought through. I think my characterisation of your posts as unthinking brainwashed praise are more accurate than ever.

[struggle4progress]

91. Here's one, posted in this very subthread, hours before you posted in the subthread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=630568

You may want to read threads before making claims about what is, or is not, contained therein

[muriel_volestrangler]

92. That was posted *as a reply to your post complaining about people blaming Obama*

You bring up Obama - people are going to reply to you. Or would you like the whole of DU to put you on ignore?

[struggle4progress]

114. Well, that's two strikes muriel against you: first you put words in my mouth; then you claim

there aren't any posts in the thread blaming Obama, when there's one just a few posts upthread from your claim

It would be really great IMO if you could stick a little closer to the facts

[Nihil]

142. Damn ... that furlough reached further than I thought ...

Bloody woodchucks everywhere ...

Hey knobhead: Whatever happened to the "Hope & Change" chant that you guys were so hot on?

Where's the "change" in this then?

[struggle4progress]

143. Mebbe ya oughta read the frickin story in the OP: it's about a 2006 memo

Since you're insisting on calling me "knobhead" and sneering Whatever happened to the "Hope & Change"?, perhaps we could review some basic facts and apply elementary logic to them:

(1) Events reported in the memo occurred before the memo was written
(2) The memo is dated 2006
(3) So events reported in the memo occurred either in 2006 or before 2006
(4) 2006 was before 2009
(5) Any time before 2006 was also before 2009
(6) So events reported in the memo occurred before 2009
(7) Mr Obama first became president in early 2009
(8) Changing the past is not among the many impressive powers of President
(9) So Mr Obama is not responsible for actions of the Executive before 2009
(10) Mr Obama is not responsible for events reported in the memo

Do feel free to look for possible subtle errors in those remarks

[Nihil]

144. Awww ... did I hit a nerve then little woodchuck?

Yes, you are repeatedly supporting the lack of "change".
Yes, you are repeatedly supporting the lack of difference between presidents (other than this one has a "D" nominally after his name).
No need to look for "possible subtle errors" in your postings as they are taken as given.

Have a nice day pal.

[struggle4progress]

145. It smells wrong to me when a 2006 memo makes you angry at Obama

[KansDem]

39. And we're supposed to believe 9/11 was a complete surprise?

[RC]

47. Of course we do. To be good Americans, we have to believe anything our government tells us.

The news media wouldn't lie to us either. How else would we get our talking points, so we can know what to think?

What is really scary are the people here on DU that still think we were totally blind sided. That the fires burning on the 80+ floor caused the collapse of the columns coming out of the ground, in the 7th sub basement.

[Maedhros]

78. Even more, to be Good Americans we must believe exactly what we're told

AND THEN, when told the exact opposite, we are to fully believe that as well, until it's necessary to revert back to our previous believe upon further instruction.

Obligatory excerpts from 1984:

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself – that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.

For example widespread warrantless surveillance was unconscionably bad under Bush, but is now vital to our security under Obama. In a few years, it will once again become unconscionably bad when a Republican is elected to the White House.

Just like the ACA was a great idea to Conservatives when the Heritage Foundation dreamed it up and Romney supported it in Massachusetts, but is now teh Soshalisms since Obama signed it into law.

[silvershadow]

40. Does anyone doubt this? nt

[melody]

45. Isn't it odd how no one talked about this until the black guy was in office?

The world hegemony base is moving operations to Europe. They no longer care what happens to us.

[snagglepuss]

52. Are you serious or are you simply not aware of someone called Snowden?

[melody]

61. And if you think Snowden isn't being used

I have a bridge to sell you. Snowden is simply being thrown away, like all useful idiots are by the spy culture.

[brush]

82. And don't forget Greenwald

He's parlayed his Snowden scoop into financial backing for his own media venture.

Yep, I'd say Snowden was used, and now he's stuck in Russia, no longer with access, still trying to be a player — the player that was played.

[melody]

101. Exactly

It's sad when idealistic young people don't understand how old this game is and how long it has been played.

[OnyxCollie]

98. Does that make the NSA spying OK?

Before Snowden, there was only speculation. Now there is proof.

However, in the face of proof, you choose speculation.

You can't be taken seriously.

[brush]

102. What does this mean?

NSA domestic spying, which started long before this administration needed to be exposed.

Snowden chose the the big grand publicity tour only to wind up stuck in Russia.

He could have done the NSA reveal anonymously. After all, isn't he supposed to be a computer genius?

[last1standing]

64. Yes, we're all racists for opposing unrestrained NSA syping.

Do you really think anyone takes you seriously when you post stupid shit like this?

[melody]

65. I won't even honor that with a response lol n/t

[last1standing]

67. And yet you just did.

doh!

[melody]

68. Really? Welcome to my ignore list n/t

[last1standing]

69. Awww! You accuse anyone questioning the NSA a racist then get offended when called out.

Poor thing.

[struggle4progress]

93. When folk get riled at the black dude, providing as evidence stuff done in 2006 or before, some

of us will naturally wonder what's actually going on

I will attempt to break it down carefully for you. Do feel free to seek subtle errors in the following logic:

(1) Events reported in the memo occurred before the memo was written
(2) The memo is dated 2006
(3) So events reported in the memo occurred either in 2006 or before 2006
(4) 2006 was before 2009
(5) Any time before 2006 was also before 2009
(6) So events reported in the memo occurred before 2009
(7) Mr Obama first became president in early 2009
(8) Changing the past is not among the many impressive powers of President
(9) So Mr Obama is not responsible for actions of the Executive before 2009
(10) Mr Obama is not responsible for events reported in the memo

[last1standing]

95. Here are the "subtle errors" I've found:

(1) Stop making this all about Obama. The problem exists regardless of who is in the White House. It isn't personal.
(2) Many of us were screaming about this in 2006. We also screamed about it in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and now.

[struggle4progress]

97. The story is about a memo from 2006, disclosing spying at some point earlier: it's a story about

the Bush administration

I suppose you can claim the problem exists regardless of who is in the White House, but that claim isn't supported by waving a memo from 2006, disclosing spying at some point earlier

Do look carefully, because I am not saying, Well, Bush did it, too, so it's OK if Obama does it. I am saying, Read the frickin story, because this particular story is actually a story about the Bush administration

Perhaps I shouldn't be surprise, though, since it is apparently your view that it simply doesn't matter who's in the White House, a point on which (I am afraid) we will have to disagree

[last1standing]

99. It doesn't matter who's in the White House. It matters what they do in there.

If you can't agree with that, then we will definitely have to disagree.

As for the rest of your comment; yes, it was in 2006 and this problem can be laid at bush's feet. However, if Obama continues the practice once he knows about it, then it can be laid at his. Did he continue the practice? I don't know. Whether he did or not, he is in the White House and he currently has control over the NSA. He has the ability to stop many of these illegal and/or unethical programs and he doesn't even need to wave his magic wand to do it.

But the real problem here isn't Obama, it's a culture in our defense departments (I mean 'defense' broadly, not speaking of the actual department) that has run unchecked and below the radar of congressional or executive oversight for far too long. Whether it's the Pentagon, NSA, CIA, FBI, or any other defense (again, using that term broadly) department, there needs to be accountability that has been lacking.

It's time to look under the rocks to see what crawls out from under.

[struggle4progress]

107. Well;, now you're simply talking from both sides of your mouth: you want Mr Obama

to "stop .. these .. programs" but simultaneously deny claiming that the activity has continued under him

[last1standing]

122. Since all you can do is spew insults we have nothing to say.

Come back when you learn some basic manners.

[stonecutter357]

58. No one is coming after you.

[DeSwiss]

59. K&R

Asked on Wednesday evening if the NSA had in the past tracked the German chancellor's communications, Caitlin Hayden, the White House's National Security Council spokeswoman, said: "The United States is not monitoring and will not monitor the communications of Chancellor Merkel. Beyond that, I'm not in a position to comment publicly on every specific alleged intelligence activity."

- I'll take that as a yes.....

[1000words]

62. Why doesn't the rest of the world know this is a non-story from a shameless self-promoting Paulite?

It's like the world's leaders don't read DU at all.

[Progressive dog]

63. Eddie's just showing how patriotic he is.

How come Ed doesn't have the names. What proof does Ed have that any monitoring was ongoing under the President Obama, he denies that Merkel is being monitored.
"The confidential memo" implies that the memo was classified as "confidential", which is the lowest level of classification.
The memo is from the Bush regime

The memo, dated October 2006 and which was issued to staff in the agency's Signals Intelligence Directorate (SID), was titled "Customers Can Help SID Obtain Targetable Phone Numbers".

Someone should have told Ed that President Obama is not President Bush.

[Indi Guy]

100. Some might say...

...someone should have told Obama that he's not Bush (visa vi the NSA).

[Progressive dog]

137. Some would say that

it is obvious that Obama is not Bush. Some might even say that evidence from the Bush regime does not have anything to do with the current President.

[Hubert Flottz]

66. Oh! what a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive! ~ Sir Walter Scott

You can't trust known liars.

[gcomeau]

71. Snowden Leak: Intelligence Agency Conducts Intelligence Gathering

Everyone gasp in shock now.

So fucking tired of this scandal-manufacturing bullshit.

[JoePhilly]

127. The thing that makes it extra funny is that the NSA gives information to these same countries

all the time.

The NSA provides intel to pretty much all of our allies. And its intel that those countries could never obtain on their own.

World leaders shake their fists at the US with one hand (for the home crowd), while their other hand is outstretched to receive new intel from the NSA.

All of the associated hyperventilating is fun to watch.

[NealK]

76. K&R n/t

[L0oniX]

83. Snowden is a hero.

[Splinter Cell]

140. Not quite.

Snowden is a piece of shit and a traitor.

[L0oniX]

141. Agent Mike agrees.

[treestar]

84. The "spying on Americans" outrage at least made some sense

But "spying on other countries?" That's what they are supposed to do.

[Octafish]

88. Don't think of it as spying.

It's more like knowing what to give them before they know what they want.

[eridani]

123. Merkel's Call to Obama: Are You Bugging My Phone?

http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/421-national-security/20041-merkels-call-to-obama-are-you-bugging-my-phone

The furore over the scale of American mass surveillance revealed by Edward Snowden shifted to an incendiary new level on Wednesday evening when Angela Merkel of Germany called Barack Obama to demand explanations over reports that the US National Security Agency was monitoring her mobile phone.

Merkel was said by informed sources in Germany to be "livid" over the reports and convinced, on the basis of a German intelligence investigation, that the reports were utterly substantiated.

The German news weekly, Der Spiegel, reported an investigation by German intelligence, prompted by research from the magazine, that produced plausible information that Merkel's mobile was targeted by the US eavesdropping agency. The German chancellor found the evidence substantial enough to call the White House and demand clarification.

The outrage in Berlin came days after President François Hollande of France also called the White House to confront Obama with reports that the NSA was targeting the private phone calls and text messages of millions of French people.

While European leaders have generally been keen to play down the impact of the whistleblowing disclosures in recent months, events in the EU's two biggest countries this week threatened an upward spiral of lack of trust in transatlantic relations.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

138. NSA monitoring 35 World Leaders? slackers.

They're probably monitoring more than 35 just in Europe. And another 50 in Africa. And so on ...

What's really annoying is that they're monitoring meeeeee! They know how much I donated to which political campaigns and which charities. (Actually, if they're monitoring me, they're in for a slow day).

[Hekate]

147. "The memo, dated October 2006" -- This is BFEE all the way

• George Herbert Walker Bush was head of the CIA from 1976-77; then was in and about the Oval Office from 1981-1993 as VP and POTUS.
• His son, the man who played an idiot but was not really an idiot, was POTUS from 2001-2009.
• Dick Cheney was Defense Sec during Daddy Bush's tenure. As VP for Junior he led the charge into a "security nation" and into war after 9-11.

Do I really need to continue?

We know that Bush/Cheney left moles in the federal government, by converting appointed positions into Civil Service jobs. We know they were obsessed with spying. We know they consolidated most if not all of the information/intelligence/spy agencies and set them up to run automatically. We know they set up a secret room in San Francisco to pull data from our phone calls. Someone spilled the beans, someone leaked a photo. We know that everything they did left a poison trail fit for a toxic clean-up site, that may take generations to fix if ever.

We know these things.

I really want to know why this is being dumped on the world stage now, at the most damaging possible time, in the most damaging possible way. This isn't about clean-up; this is about trying to bring down the government of the man who is in office now.

I don't happen to think the two who are doing this are heroes. They would have been heroes to me if they had done this is 2006, or at any time during the Bush/Cheney administration. But no, they're doing it now and making sure it all gets laid at the feet of Barack Obama.

Lest anyone think I support the NSA, I don't. While I've said repeatedly that we have no privacy left, and part of the reason is that we have literally paid good money to make sure we don't just so we can have our own electronic toys -- what the NSA and other spy agencies have done, are planning to do, is wrong.

It was another time bomb left ticking in a file cabinet by the BFEE. How many more are there waiting to go off?



The memo, dated October 2006 and which was issued to staff in the agency's Signals Intelligence Directorate (SID), was titled "Customers Can Help SID Obtain Targetable Phone Numbers".

It begins by setting out an example of how US officials who mixed with world leaders and politicians could help agency surveillance.
"In one recent case," the memo notes, "a US official provided NSA with 200 phone numbers to 35 world leaders … Despite the fact that the majority is probably available via open source, the PCs [intelligence production centers] have noted 43 previously unknown phone numbers. These numbers plus several others have been tasked."

The document continues by saying the new phone numbers had helped the agency discover still more new contact details to add to their monitoring: "These numbers have provided lead information to other numbers that have subsequently been tasked."

But the memo acknowledges that eavesdropping on the numbers had produced "little reportable intelligence".

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-phone-calls-world-leaders-2013-10#ixzz2j3Q1mPJd

[sabrina 1]

148. The two people who have released all this information did it when they COULD.

I'm sorry, but this is so serious an issue that I fail to see why anyone should be concerned about ANYTHING other than the crimes committed by the Bush Gang which you may remember, were covered up by Democrats.

Had we had a thorough investigation of Bush/Cheney War Crimes and Wall St. Corruption that brought down the world's economy, we would not have needed whistle blowers to do the job the government failed to do. I am and remain furious at Democrats who told us we need to 'move on' from all the crimes we the people KNEW ABOUT, which means they knew even more.

The huge effort that succeeded in 2008 to throw out the entire Republican power machine in DC happened because WE THOUGHT something would be done about the already known crimes, including the NSA Spying.

Do you remember that?? Or have people so quickly forgotten? How Congress, with the help of Dems COVERED for Bush/Cheney and the Telecoms by CHANGING THE LAW and making it 'retroactive' to LEGALIZE the crimes the committed. There was NO DOUBT at that time that they had committed crimes.

And do you also remember the shock to his supporters, including me, when Obama, after stating he would not vote for the FISA Bill amendment, went ahead and did so.

So let's not pretend that only Republicans are responsible. In fact many Republicans quit their jobs in the DOJ because of what they saw going on and people like Comey and Ashcroft, neither of whom could be considered liberal in any way, risked everything to try to stop Cheney/Gonzales from violating the law.

And then they changed the law to protect Bush, including Dems. That was a tragic time for this country. We would have had support across party lines at that time, instead we lost, again.

Mannings revelations were mostly about Bush era War Crimes. That is when he was in the military. But knee jerk reactions to protect parties over country, ignored that and Republicans once again got cover from Dems.

Until people stop ignoring the reality of the past decade, we will never get anywhere. This isnt about politicians, this is about THIS COUNTRY. It has gone too far to be about politics anymore.