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d_r

(6,907 posts)
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:26 AM Nov 2013

Study makes a case against paddling, finds link between corporal punishment, failure to graduat

Source: Chattanooga Times Free Press

Kids who are paddled at school are more likely to be black, more likely to be poor and more likely to be boys. And that's why a UTC professor studying the issue says schools should rethink their policies on corporal punishment.

Poor and minority children already face an uphill educational battle, with lower overall academic achievement and lower graduation rates.

And Darrell Meece, an education professor at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, says paddling only makes things worse. His dive into data on corporal punishment found that kids who are paddled are three times more likely not to graduate high school.

"Children who are living in poverty, children who are in minority groups are less likely to graduate in the first place. We know that," he said. "Corporal punishment exacerbates that, it makes it even less likely that they graduate. These are vulnerable kids already."

Read more: http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/nov/11/long-term-study-makes-a-case-against/



19 states still allow corporal punishment in schools. Many will argue that this is one "tool" among many that educators can use, and so they should have access to it. Others will argue that they were paddled and turned out "OK" (I was paddled as a child in school, but I also never sat in a car seat, never wore a bike helmet, and rode in the back of my Dad's pickup truck). My response is that if someone developed a "tool" that made building houses less expensive, but 20 years later half of the houses that were built with that tool had fallen down, we wouldn't want to use that tool. There would be many people who could say "my house was built with that tool and it is still standing fine." but I wouldn't want to build my house with it. My take is that today the children with the least social capital are the most likely to experience paddling in school. We know that these also are the children who are least likely to graduate. We can show them that school is a predictable, safe place for them to be, or we can show them that it is scary place where people will hit you to get you do what you want and you probably don't want to be here in the first place.
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Study makes a case against paddling, finds link between corporal punishment, failure to graduat (Original Post) d_r Nov 2013 OP
At every opportunity they get pushed back by the system. Baitball Blogger Nov 2013 #1
As a former teacher, I'm not at all surprised by this. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #2
Knock me down with a feather n/t the_sly_pig Nov 2013 #3
racism is systemic heaven05 Nov 2013 #4
Positive reinforcement works much better. bemildred Nov 2013 #5
It was child abuse when I saw my third grade classmates paddled mountain grammy Nov 2013 #6
Fuckers beat me with a board sorefeet Nov 2013 #7
The problem is the immaturity of children when they start school. JDPriestly Nov 2013 #16
Sorry to hear about that. AverageJoe90 Nov 2013 #23
Sadist who likes to hurt children Kolesar Nov 2013 #26
How about we just give up our children at birth to those who think they can do it better? Android3.14 Nov 2013 #8
this is school-based corporal puishment d_r Nov 2013 #9
This article is about paddling children *by school officials, in school* antigone382 Nov 2013 #10
Awww, look. They wrote a whole book about people with ideas such as those. jtuck004 Nov 2013 #12
Gee, ya think? TBF Nov 2013 #11
The question is causation. Does the corporal punishment CAUSE the failure of the child in school. JDPriestly Nov 2013 #13
best post in this thread n/t Psephos Nov 2013 #14
it doesn't directly answer your question d_r Nov 2013 #15
How common is corporal punishment in the schools? JDPriestly Nov 2013 #17
CA: apple, Alabama: orange. Gormy Cuss Nov 2013 #18
Did the study or article explain why California is apples and Alabama oranges? JDPriestly Nov 2013 #20
You just explained it upthread. California doesn't allow corporal punishment. Gormy Cuss Nov 2013 #21
19 states allow corporal punishment d_r Nov 2013 #19
Studies prove the point Duppers Nov 2013 #22
Yeah, sadly, that is true. AverageJoe90 Nov 2013 #24
Akin to beatings in southern prisons, IMHO eom Kolesar Nov 2013 #27
Or on quite a few antebellum plantations. nt AverageJoe90 Nov 2013 #31
And to think it only took getting to the 21st century for us to figure this out. DeSwiss Nov 2013 #25
always better to appeal to their minds and not their behinds. olddad56 Nov 2013 #28
Here is a youtube video d_r Nov 2013 #29
I had no idea they still paddled in schools Marrah_G Nov 2013 #30

Baitball Blogger

(47,273 posts)
1. At every opportunity they get pushed back by the system.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:29 AM
Nov 2013

Someday we'll look back and everyone will recognize that we are living through institutionalized racism.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
2. As a former teacher, I'm not at all surprised by this.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:34 AM
Nov 2013

Yes, corporal punishment should be banned in schools. It does a lot more harm than good.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
4. racism is systemic
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:37 AM
Nov 2013

and ingrained in this culture. Black is bad, white is good is still the logic of many. Until we get to a point of seeing all as human beings, bleeding the same red blood. and away from labels of color and such, we will stay mired in our circular firing squad. Will we ever wake up? I hope so before a fascist dictator finds the key words to slip in under the radar and.........

mountain grammy

(26,908 posts)
6. It was child abuse when I saw my third grade classmates paddled
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:48 AM
Nov 2013

in NC in 1958 (only white kids, though, schools were still segregated) and it's child abuse now!

I can still see the face of my little red headed friend having to bend over and be paddled in front of the class. I was as terrified as he was. My parents were in the principle's office the next morning informing her that their children were not to be abused by any teacher. We had just been stationed there and had just started our new school.

sorefeet

(1,241 posts)
7. Fuckers beat me with a board
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:59 AM
Nov 2013

in the third grade, 8 years old. Pulled me up in front of the whole class, hit my ass 3 times with a big flat board and it hurt bad. Traumatized me for life I realize that now. I was innocent of what I was accused, a few kids just pointed to me and the teacher beat my ass. I remember mom was going to go to school and raise hell but my dad wouldn't let her. I quit in the 12th grade after my teacher told me to go to the office. They were going to beat me again because I broke a rule. I took my money out of the bank early for a car and wasn't allowed to until the school season was over. Soooooo, I went straight to my locker, got my shit out of it, left and never looked back. The study makes sense to me, I was scared daily of school. Of course lots of shame in quitting also. So lets make alcohol our best friend for 40 goddamned years. DU is now a safe haven for me to draw sanity, logic and education from.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
16. The problem is the immaturity of children when they start school.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:17 PM
Nov 2013

We start everyone at the same age. Some children are not ready, not mature enough. It is not a matter of intelligence. It is a matter of being able to sit still and listen, of being able to remain sitting for what is to a child an interminably long, boring time. Smaller classes would help.

But the most important thing is to have a play-oriented three-year pre-school available for every child at no cost to the family. That's what many European countries like Austria, Germany and France provided when I lived there. A child needs to learn to be in a classroom situation without the rigors of strict lessons.

Obama has proposed something like this. We need to fund and implement it. It would be such a godsend for kids like you were. My children had that kind of pre-school. They were never pushed, and they had to take a drawing test to get into the first grade. That drawing test revealed their readiness for school, their ability to follow simple directions, etc.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
23. Sorry to hear about that.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:16 AM
Nov 2013

Sounds like your mom was a real stand-up lady, trying to do the right thing for you. I applaud her for that; my own mother had to deal with a principal who was getting ME in trouble for no reason when I was in the 4th grade(no paddlings, though).

Sorry about your dad, though; guess he couldn't be assed to do the moral thing.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
8. How about we just give up our children at birth to those who think they can do it better?
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:45 AM
Nov 2013

There is more harm with having your child eat at McDonald's several times a month than receiving the occasional smack on the tuckus. Perhaps we should regulate how often a person can take their children to restaurants and what a child can order?
But just as nasal-voiced conservatives screaming, "What about the children!? What about the children!?" are the epitome of Tea Bagger Taliban obnoxiousness, it is inarguable that loudmouthed groups insinuating themselves into the private lives of individuals is offensive, regardless if the group is conservative or liberal.

antigone382

(3,682 posts)
10. This article is about paddling children *by school officials, in school*
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:55 AM
Nov 2013

No one is going into anyone's living room. Furthermore, it is a scientific study, not a piece of proposed legislation. We know that McDonald's menu items are bad for kids because of scientific studies.

Who exactly is the loudmouth here? What is the problem with data that shows that hitting kids is not effective? Why are you so offended that someone did some research?

What do you propose? Should we avoid investigating the effects of these physical punishments, so that no one has to think twice before hitting a kid? Why be attached to hurting someone if it just plain isn't effective?

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
12. Awww, look. They wrote a whole book about people with ideas such as those.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:36 PM
Nov 2013

http://www.unscientificamerica.com/



There is, perhaps, a hundred years of well-substantiated science which shows that punishment, defined and distinct from positive and negative reinforcement, can change behavior but also creates unwanted behaviors and aggression, almost all of it destructive in some way, and nearly always perpetrated by the powerful against the smaller and less powerful. It is administered by people we call bullies. It's irrelevant whether they are parents or dog owners or whomever, when they resort to punishment they are satisfying an inner urge for aggression, perhaps born of a deep-seated sexual frustration or inability to deal with being weaker than everyone in the life around them, going beyond simply changing behavior, doing nothing more than beating up on the weak. Not much difference between them and some mass murderer, they just prefer, many times, to do their cowardly work behind closed doors.

People who use punishment deserve every consequence that can be mustered against them. They are no better than the lowest, most despicable criminals in our society. That includes the teacher who hits a kid, (such as the ones ion Boston who soaked switches in vinegar to beat black children because, as they said, "their skins are tougher, you know&quot , or the pathetic bully of a parent who smacks the kid on the tuckus.

If the goal is changing behavior, they should get a book, read up on behavioral theories taught in the most basic of college courses, and move their thinking out of the 18th century. Or just join the rest of the people who deny that the earth is getting warmer and that vaccines cause autism, and quit being a lying hypocrite.

TBF

(32,709 posts)
11. Gee, ya think?
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:18 PM
Nov 2013

I never understood this mindset. You beat the crap out of an adult it's assault - beating children is acceptable and even desirable. And folks wonder why children grow up to be violent? Gee ... I'd have to think about whether there's a connection ...

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
13. The question is causation. Does the corporal punishment CAUSE the failure of the child in school.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:16 PM
Nov 2013

Or is the corporal punishment a RESPONSE to the failure of the child in school.

Every child, regardless of race or economic background needs three years of pre-school to prepare it for the rigors of classroom life.

That's what children get in Germany and Austria and a lot of other countries in which gradeschool classrooms are calmer and more orderly than in urban America.

It isn't the school that is unsafe, it is the children (not necessarily of any particular race) who are unprepared for the sitting, the need to pay attention, the distractions of the other children, the order that is necessary in the classroom and, in some cases, the listening and learning and participation skills children need in school.

All it takes is one child who is unable to cope with the stress of sitting still for a lesson and you have a class that is impossible to manage. Then, some child, not necessarily the immature one, gets blamed. Teacher is frustrated and angry. And someone gets punished.

But it isn't in my view the act of punishment, it is the situation that led to the punishment that is the problem.

Obama has a plan for preschool education for all children. Let's adopt it.

These kinds of studies can show a correlation, but they cannot exclude other potential causes and therefore do not definitively show causation.

Beyond that, I generally oppose corporal punishment.

d_r

(6,907 posts)
15. it doesn't directly answer your question
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:11 PM
Nov 2013

but there were two parts to the study, and only one is reported on. In the first, children's externalizing scores (aggressive, defiant, acting out sorts of behavior) were predicted each year grades 2-9 from the previous year's externalizing scores and the experience of corporal punishment in school. So, this is controlling for previous externalizing behavior, predicting change in externalizing behavior from year to year. School-based corporal punishment predicted increases in externalizing behavior in grades 2,3,4,5,7,8 and conduct reports from grade 9. This means that the school-based corporal punishment was predicting increases in externalizing behvior beyond what would be expected.

For the high school graduation rates, each child who received corporal punishment was matched statistically do a child who did not, based on the children's maternal-rated temperament at age 4.5 (the summer before kindergarten), parental use of corporal punishment, socioeconomic status, sex, and race. Basically, this treats it like a quasi-experimental design to control for those variables - you could think of it as a treatment group who received corporal punishment in school and matched with a control group who did not. The graduation comparison is based on this design to control for those variables.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
17. How common is corporal punishment in the schools?
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:20 PM
Nov 2013

California does not permit it. Yet we have a high drop-out rate. Apparently only 20 states allow corporal punishment.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934191.html

California has a 5% drop-out rate.

Alabama has a 1.5% drop-out rate.

http://high-school-dropout-rates.findthedata.org/

Alabama also has a high percentage of school corporal punishment.

On the other hand Arkansas has fairly high corporal punishment and drop-out rates.

I question the study. It was very narrow.

I don't favor corporal punishment in the schools, but I just don't think the study reflects all the factors that affect dropping out of school. I think it proves what those who did the study hoped to find.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
18. CA: apple, Alabama: orange.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:37 PM
Nov 2013

The correlation that students who are paddled in school are more likely to drop out isn't an attempt to explain all dropouts. It's looking at a possible factor that leads to a higher risk of student drop out.

There's probably a positive correlation between having addicted or imprisoned parents and student dropout rates but that wouldn't explain why all students drop out.



JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
20. Did the study or article explain why California is apples and Alabama oranges?
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:01 PM
Nov 2013

If not, it did not consider all possible factors that cause drop-outs. That's all I am trying to say. The study is flawed. The conclusion is not accurate because it does not cover all the bases.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
21. You just explained it upthread. California doesn't allow corporal punishment.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 07:11 PM
Nov 2013

There are correlates to drop out rates in both states. The sets of correlates probably have a high degree of overlap. There's at least one correlate that doesn't overlap, namely paddling.

d_r

(6,907 posts)
19. 19 states allow corporal punishment
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:58 PM
Nov 2013

State statistics for levels are here (it isn't very fresh data):
http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?page=statesbanning

This compares graduation rates in the 19 states that allow schoool-based corporal punishment vs. those that do not, controlling for % of children who qualify for free lunch:






My take on it is that currently the children who have the least social capital are most likely to receive corporal punishment at school. Poor rural white kids and poor black kids. We already know that. We also already know that there is an achievement gap between poor black kids and white middle class kids. That isn't a causal connection. But it exacerbates it. It makes a bad situation worse. It is one factor among many, but it makes a unique independent contribution.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
24. Yeah, sadly, that is true.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:35 AM
Nov 2013

The saddest part is is that corporal punishment appears to have been introduced to the black community via none other than slavery.

"The origin and true purpose of the paddle."
— George Ryley Scott; William H. Grier, M.D. and Price M. Cobbs, M.D.

http://nospank.net/slave.pdf

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
25. And to think it only took getting to the 21st century for us to figure this out.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:58 AM
Nov 2013
- There may be hope for us yet. Maybe.

K&R

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