Maduro urges calm as Venezuelans jam stores again
Source: AP
President Nicolas Maduro, who called for an emptying of shelves when he seized control of a slew of appliance retailers last week, urged calm Monday as Venezuelans massed outside stores nationwide for a fourth straight day.
Maduro, in a nationally televised address, charged that opposition agitators had infiltrated the long lines that have formed in several cities and were trying to stir up violence. He said he was deploying tens of thousands of volunteer civilian militiamen to assist security forces in crowd control.
"Be calm, these products will stay where they are," Maduro said, adding that under no circumstances would he allow companies to gouge consumers again. "There's no need to sleep outside store doors. Nobody should despair. Nobody should get anxious."
Tension has hung over much of Venezuela since Maduro last week took control of several electronics retailers he accuses of hiking prices to sow discontent and destabilize his rule. This week the government is expanding its crackdown to businesses selling clothes, shoes and automobiles, all of which have seen prices shoot up in tandem with a sharp drop in Venezuela's bolivar currency on the illegal black market.
Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/maduro-urges-calm-venezuelans-jam-025926774.html
quadrature
(2,049 posts)Archae
(46,347 posts)Just as it worked in the old Soviet Union, China under Mao, North Korea, the Sandanistas, etc...
1000words
(7,051 posts)You spelled "Sandinista" wrong, too.
pa28
(6,145 posts)You should probably add the disasters of socialist Finland, Denmark, New Zealand and Norway. It's absolute hell in those places I hear.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)last I heard, those countries aren't experiencing 50%+ inflation, a failing electrical grid, basic commodities shortages, declining oil production, economy coming off the rails, the highest crime rate in Latin America, widespread govt. corruption and massive mismanagement of the economy.
Shall I keep going?
Venezuela is in no way comparable to those countries, they know how to manage their economies, unlike Maduro and co.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Not getting the whole story. Thanks for the details. That is not quoted in the OPs.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)like Venezuela. I'm sure that management of Venezuela would go a lot more smoothly without U.S. interference and deliberate destabilization.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Chavez/Maduro have made of their country.
That's not going to work anymore, anyone with eyes and an ounce of sense can see that the Ven. govt has completely dicked up the economy, they don't need any help from the US to do that.
But y'all keep on making excuses for why the country is coming apart at the seams economically instead of looking at the real culprits.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)highest murder rate in latin america, import 70% + of their needs, kidnapping capital of the world, failing health system, no funcitoning justice system, prison system run by prisoners, highest inflation in the hemisphere, laws against insulting public officials, failed economic system, and of course rule by decree.
Hey, but gas is cheap.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)Due to mismanagement
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)would absolutely have to be the most influential element in the modern history of Latin America and the Caribbean. Our policy initiatives in the region are founded on doctrines that clearly state an intention of aggressive dominance. The Pentagon's budget includes hundreds of billions of dollars devoted to "full spectrum dominance" of South America. Further, we have a clear, voluminously documented history of conduct in the region, which includes such acts as organizing and financing devastating wars, toppling democracies in favor of dictatorships, overt military aggression, and just the general and continuous interference in the region's political and economic affairs, all for completely self-serving reasons.
Anyone who forms an opinion about Venezuela without considering all of this, is demonstrating an astonishing level of willful ignorance.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)America is not stopping them from running their country in a rational and competent manner.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)The U.S. isn't forcing Maduro to bankrupt the country, nor is it forcing Maduro to rule by decree.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)The problem is they spent more than they made
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)at the same time massive govt programs. Simple answer, they're spending way more than they're earning.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)"The International Monetary Fund (IMF) indicated this Friday that the growing imbalances in the Venezuelan economy have created a situation that currently is not sustainable.
Alejandro Werner, director of western hemisphere affairs for the IMF, stated that this bleak outlook is due to high inflation, foreign exchange shortages, and high levels of scarcity with respect to basic goods.
The latest IMF calculations place Venezuelas 2013 inflation at 45 percent and economic growth at 1 percent.
All of the trends in these indicators are rising. We dont see a potential inflection point or a reversal, Werner said to journalists at the annual IMF meetings in Washington, DC."
http://www.pulsamerica.co.uk/2013/10/15/economy-imf-says-venezuelas-economic-situation-is-not-sustainable/
How is the US responsible for this?
dionysus
(26,467 posts)PUT EM UP!1!1!
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)the Evil Empire, aka, the U.S.
EX500rider
(10,866 posts)....to a country a few countries away back in 1953!
So of course from then on we own any and all bad things that happen for ever.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)Are you being deliberately stupid as a way of demonstrating sarcasm?
1954: Guatemala
1964: Brazil
1973: Chile
1984-1986: Nicaragua
No, we don't own every bad thing that happens. But only an idiot would think that we are completely innocent.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Whenever there is evil to be fought, and a battle to be won. Peace is boring. Somewhere, in this world, something is wrong!
LOL at the 'debbil.'
freshwest
(53,661 posts)How can they be broke? It's not like Venezuela is some desert wasteland, either. No need for anyone to do without.
Something is wrong. And I don't know why, but my friends from Mexico all hated Hugo. Why?
This should have worked. I don't see this as problem of the USA as much as the same problem it's always been -- the remnants of the colonial system, oligarchs, the failure of land reform.
That's what a socialist solution would be, that and education and basic needs to improve the lives of the people, build a middle class economy. That is not what happened there apparently.
And where the hell did all the oil money go?
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)Venezuelan radio journalist arrested on air
Oct. 11, 2013
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) A Venezuelan radio journalist was arrested by police detectives on the air just minutes after complaining to listeners that they drive around in luxury cars and wear flashy jewelry, the man's son said Friday.
Victor Hugo Donaire, 50, remained in jail Friday, a day after four officers of the national investigative police interrupted his morning show at Radio Los Morros in the Guarico state capital of San Juan.
He was being held on charges of resisting arrest and mistreating a public official, said his son, Danny Donaire, the station's vice president.
He said the officers manhandled station employees, confiscating the cellphone of its administrator so she could not take photos.
Audio of the scuffle was broadcast by various Venezuelan news media.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/venezuelan-radio-journalist-arrested-air
Is this the fault of the US also?
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Then the alien thing got them. No, she fainted. Very well screeched it was.
EX500rider
(10,866 posts)dbackjon
(6,578 posts)dotymed
(5,610 posts)organizations (one headed by Jimmy carter) have ALL commented on the excellent voting practices of Venezuela.
Venezuelan voting has been much cleaner than any U.S. voting has.
America is (and has for many decades) aggressively trying to topple the Democratic Socialist government of Venezuela (Brazil and other South American sovereign nations) mainly because of their oil (America Inc.) and because "they" do not want Americans to see that this system can work, very well, in our own back-yards.
If the European Democratic Socialist nations had massive natural resource reserves they too would be under American sponsored covert attacks.
Yes, Venezuela is Democratic with a capital D.
Yes, America has a long history of exerting heavy influence over natural reserve rich, South American countries. Venezuela and Brazil finally said "enough" and started programs to re-distribute the wealth to the millions of peasants (from the handful of very wealthy S. Americans) although they ("we" still have hegemony over Columbia and other U.S. bought nations.
I can imagine how hard it would be with the U.S. govt. and it's corporate thugs always trying to destroy your govt. from outside and inside. To me that is why it is hard to know if Chavez and now Maduro are using the correct methods.
If America would stop destabilizing those economies and be good neighbors (which they won't), these Democratic Socialist nations could prosper or implode on their own volition.
Please Read, CONFESSIONS OF AN ECONOMIC HIT MAN, by John Perkins, it will inform you much better than I can. Also, Do Not believe the MSM.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)is the fault of the U.S.? And the massive mismanagement of the economy by the late Chavez govt. and now the Maduro govt, which is the same govt., and the widespread corruption within the Maduro govt has nothing to do with it?
Talk about sticking you head in the sand.
The U.S. doesn't need to de-stabilize the Ven. economy, Maduro and his merry band of thugs are doing a great job of it all by themselves, blaming the U.S. is just a distraction to keep the masses from learning the real truth about why the country is going to hell in a handbasket.
It's like, look over here, not over there.
spanza
(507 posts)Originally in Spanish, translated to English by another DUer
Jimmy Carter once praised the Venezuelan electoral system as "the best in the world", which has been repeated numerous times by Hugo Chávez and now his successor, Nicolás Maduro. Nevertheless, in the last few years, the Carter Center organization has been backing more the accusations brought by the opposition.
The director of the program in the Americas for the Carter Center, Jennifer McCoy, alerted today that in the electoral procedures which have transpired in the last few years in Venezuela, there has been a surge of "ventajismo" (advantage-ism?) as a factor of accusations due to the use of public resources by the Chavista candidates.
McCoy commented that since the years 2005 and 2006, the Venezuelan National Electoral Council (CNE) initiated a phase of consultations with political parties, and that there has been more participation in audits of the system since then, which has generated more confidence from public opinion regarding the automated mechanized voting method.
However, "in the most recent years (...) the subject of ventajismo has risen," said the representative for the Carter Center when referring to the claims made by the opposition in the last few elections regarding the use of public resources, including state-owned media, in Chavista campaigns.
"We have seen that the confidence of Venezuela (in the electoral system) has many ups and downs", said McCoy during a video conference which she offered in the Congreso Internacional Buenas Prácticas Electorales para el Fortalecimiento de la Democracia, which took place in the Catholic University of Andrés Bello (UCAB), one of the most prestigious academic institutions in the country.
This past July the Carter Center sent out a preliminary report regarding April's last presidential elections in which they recommended to guarantee in the future more equity in the campaigns and to explain clearly the norms which regulate the participation of public servants in them.
The report found "a series of inequities in the conditions of the Chavista campaign, both regarding the access to financial resources as well as access to communication mediums." The Venezuelan opposition has criticized many times the indiscreet use of public funding for the financing of Chavista campaigns.
http://www.infobae.com/2013/11/05/1521518-el-centro-carter-alerta-el-ventajismo-las-elecciones-venezolanas
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)the US is Venezuela's number one oil purchaser and supplies about $1 billion worth of goods per month to Ven.
EX500rider
(10,866 posts)No.....if we "aggressively tried to topple" ANY country-they go the way of Saddam, Gaddafi and Mohammed Omar.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)dotymed
(5,610 posts)that "Big business" was hoarding and over pricing food. Read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man and your views may change.
If this doesn't work, watch out for the drones.
hack89
(39,171 posts)what is happening is that businesses can't get enough legal dollars to by products to put on the shelves. On top of that you have out of control inflation that drives up replacement costs of goods - the result is either high prices as businesses try to capture their actual cost or businesses stop selling because they are losing money.
MADem
(135,425 posts)dotymed
(5,610 posts)Response to dotymed (Reply #66)
hack89 This message was self-deleted by its author.
hack89
(39,171 posts)ok
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)3800 More Toilet Paper Packs Found Hoarded
These actions were carried out by the audit staff of the National Costs and Prices Superintendency (Sundecop) and the Institute for the Defense of People's Access to Goods and Services (Indepabis) as part of the actions undertaken by the national government for the fight against shortages and hoarding.
Sunday Cop and In Debt Abyss. You can't make this stuff up.
EX500rider
(10,866 posts)"The State Department released a brief report called "Confessions or Fantasies of an Economic Hit Man" that took issue with one of Mr. Perkins' primary assertions: that the National Security Agency, with a wink and a nod, was aware of and may even have approved Mr. Perkins's hiring at Main.
"Perkins is apparently not aware that the National Security Agency is a cryptological (code-making and code-breaking) organization, not an economic organization," read the statement, which was released by the Bureau of International Information Programs. "Neither of these missions involves anything remotely resembling placing economists at private companies in order to increase the debt of foreign countries."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/business/yourmoney/19confess.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
RedCloud
(9,230 posts)Knee jerk reaction without much investigation?
First, in Venezuela companies are notorious for hoarding to drive up prices. This is the shock and awe theory that so devastated Chile.
When I lived in Venezuela, I heard rumors of giant warehouses in the hills to hoard the goods. Well these warehouses were discovered and the people rioted. USA stayed true to form and did not report on the bloodshed except for a few token words each day. They were trying to get the crowd to do something in China and that to serve people .
Maybe some day Archae you will wake up and see how the capitalists have flooded your stores with absolute junk. Once you realize that you could be in store to see how much junk they put in people's heads!
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Maduro's calling for calm, even though it was him that started the whole mess by stealing the goods of a private company, jailing some of the managers, and practically invited people to come and just take the goods.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)Nationalize a bunch of stuff and create a false demand for it!
I call it the Oprah Effect:
"You get a car! You get a car! Everybody gets a car!"
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)And I haven't even looked at the Latin American forum. What gives you this burst of energy, this new lease on life?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Those kinds of remarks contribute to the thread...not one bit.
If you have a comment in rebuttal that doesn't involve insult to the OP or a snark-remark about self-stimulation, let's hear it. Otherwise, your unfortunate decision to get personal with the thread starter reflect on you and no one else. You haven't added a thing to the discussion.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Selective squeamishness, is it?
And I have just added as much to this thread as you did with your comment above. You're welcome.
MADem
(135,425 posts)There's a difference, and it has nothing to do with "sqeamishness." Use a little bit of that insight I always imagined most progressives possess, and you'll appreciate the distinction.
If "You suck, and because I disagree with you, I will call you a nasty name" is the level of discourse to which we're aspiring here, then Skinner might as well sell this joint to YAHOO.
And you're welcome, back atcha. You knew what I meant, yet you chose to rebut with an obtuse understanding. Now, you should be entirely clear as to my meaning.
I'm so lucky to have you to teach me manners.
I stand by my right to use the word wankfest to describe a wankfest, like all these stupid threads are. Easier to type than "right wing circle jerk".
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)s
MADem
(135,425 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)I honestly don't know what is going on.
Just mention Rand and I'll come out cussing.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
You're the one making lame allusions to grasping things, but whatever.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)I stand by my word. Wankfest.
MADem
(135,425 posts)agree with your view of that nutjob Maduro of being right wingers.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)I'm not sure about you.
eta - I'm beginning to wonder though...
MADem
(135,425 posts)My reference was to your words upthread directed at another DUer:
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2013, 05:15 PM - Edit history (1)
wankers, that doesn't necessarily make one a wanker.
But if you want to own it by getting all defensive when I wasn't even talking to you, then be my guest - own it.
Zorro
(15,749 posts)Hope your wanker fixation has been sufficiently gratified, itch kitty.
Now perhaps you can comment on the contents of the article.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Name calling is no substitute for a discussion of the issues.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Of course Venezuela's politics are going to be posted more.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Psephos
(8,032 posts)Really? You still think it's about which team is beating up the other?
Stop to consider that it's the team owners, laughing in their beers as they watch the teams pummel each other, who run the show.
They don't care what their label is, they only care if they're in power.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Psephos
(8,032 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,630 posts)The pattern they're using now worked so well in Chile they didn't even have to revamp it to use it again when the Venezuelan people hacked them off by electing a leftist to office:
The Shadow of Chile Falls on Venezuela
By Francisco Dominguez
Source: The Morning Star
Monday, November 11, 2013
Mayoral elections are to be held in Venezuela on December 8. Every mayoralty will be contested and, as is the case in Venezuela's vibrant democracy, both the right-wing coalition and Chavista candidates are busily campaigning up and down the country.
These municipal elections take place in a very different context to recent elections in Venezuela - they will be the first held since the death of Hugo Chavez. They are also the first following the violent response of the right-wing opposition to the presidential election in April.
Venezuela's anti-democratic opposition used the close election results to try to unseat the elected government of Nicolas Maduro. They alleged fraud but failed to provide any evidence. Nonetheless, their leader Henrique Capriles encouraged opposition supporters to "vent their anger." A wave of violence followed resulting in the death of 13 innocent people as well as the burning of vehicles, attacks on health centres, national electoral council buildings and houses of prominent members of the government.
The opposition also attempted to internationalise its false claim of fraud. Its political leaders travelled around the world linking up with right-wing politicians such as Jovino Novoa, senator for Chile's extreme right Union Democratica Independiente (UDI). The establishment of UDI was encouraged and assisted by Pinochet's dictatorship. Novoa notoriously served as general government undersecretary of the military dictatorship between 1979-1982.
This link with the Chilean right wing makes sense. The opposition in Venezuela is at the moment - just like its counterparts in Chile 40 years ago - waging economic war as a strategy to destabilise and bring down the government of President Maduro.
More:
http://www.zcommunications.org/the-shadow-of-chile-falls-on-venezuela-by-francisco-dominguez.html
Judi Lynn
(160,630 posts)They are organising shortages of vital food and other day-to-day essentials, carrying out sabotage attacks against key facilities such as electricity plants, the metro and oil refineries.
All this echoes the strategy of president Nixon in Chile designed to "make the economy scream" to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him."
As in Chile, they have unleashed psychological warfare in the media to sow confusion and despair among the poorest and most vulnerable as well as the middle classes.
The West's mainstream media readily and uncritically lends support to this campaign. In October alone the Washington Post ran an editorial headlined Venezuela, On The Path To Implosion, the Miami Herald right on cue announced Desperation In Venezuela and the FT followed with Chaos In Caracas. Foreign Policy magazine ran a piece called Is The US Ready For A Venezuelan Meltdown?
Just as with the ousting of the democratically elected Salvador Allende in Chile the influence of the US looms large in Venezuela.
Key bodies of the US foreign policy apparatus are very actively intervening in the internal affairs of the country by channelling millions of dollars of taxpayers' money into opposition political, social and media coffers.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Meanwhile, look at how well Communist China is doing.
I chuckle when some dumbass Republican uses the China model as something we should emulate.
Judi Lynn
(160,630 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2013, 01:16 AM - Edit history (1)
although, of course it isn't as profitable as all-out war for US national politicians and their financiers.
Far more surreptitious, less likely to be detected, destroys the government hated by the U.S.
Right-wingers are friendlier to China because of their cheap labor? That would definitely impress Republicans, wouldn't it?
It's something which benefits our already obscenely wealthy 1%'rs.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)EX500rider
(10,866 posts)Really?
Ven. Exports - partners:
US 39.3%, China 14.4%, India 12%, Netherlands Antilles 7.6%, Cuba 4.5% (2012)
Quite the boycott there..
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)The myth being that Socialism/Communism leads to shortages of common items because there is no incentive to provide them.
After all, the ONLY motive is greed.
EX500rider
(10,866 posts)....$59 billion a year (2012 est.)
The truth, not a myth is that central planning mixed with rigid price controls never works and always produces shortages.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Lol.
Judi Lynn
(160,630 posts)Pinochet liked to say that no blade of grass moved in Chile without his order.
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,901020701-265371,00.html
After Nixon, with Kissinger's counsel, and the CIA, and the use of the Chilean "news" media got rid of the elected President, Pinochet helped them regrab the power they had over Chile prior to the election results they couldn't accept.
As Kissinger said, "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people."
In time, that view is going to have to go. The Americas do NOT belong to the US Gov't, no matter how many US taxpayers' dollars they hand off to the right-wing governments, militaries, and the opposition groups in the leftist-led countries.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,630 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)China is sending a message and the next loan will be on terms very very favorable to China. Will it come in time before the elections? We'll see.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Gary 50
(382 posts)Maduro is following in Lenin's footsteps. When will the gulags start welcoming their "guests"? Who would want to be in business if the government can confiscate your property? I see a trajectory of straight down for Venezuela and its people. Can a revolution be far behind?
freshwest
(53,661 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)"Maduro, in a nationally televised address, charged that opposition agitators had infiltrated the long lines that have formed in several cities and were trying to stir up violence"
LOL
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)Maybe a cheap Galaxy S4?
Get em now because, just like toilet paper, there isn't going to be much in the near future.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)bobGandolf
(871 posts)Wondering how much a destabilized Venezuela will impact us. I know the impact regarding their oil....just wondering if there are any other areas.
hack89
(39,171 posts)they will still have to sell us oil - there are very few places that can refine it.
packman
(16,296 posts)the old saying about following the money trail, in Venezuela it's follow the oil trail.
And if you sniff around enough, the stink of CIA with the sheen of American hanky-panky might be mixed in with that oil.
From the History of Venezuela:
Chavez was reelected to a six-year term in July 2000. Troops were called in to quell serious protests over the election in several cities. In 2000 Chavez visited other OPEC countries, becoming the first foreign head of state to visit Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War. He is close to President Fidel Castro of Cuba, which receives Venezuelan oil at reduced prices.
Read more: Venezuela: Maps, History, Geography, Government, Culture, Facts, Guide & Travel/Holidays/Cities | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/country/venezuela.html?pageno=2#ixzz2kRilpdhG
Socialistlemur
(770 posts)Venezuela is now a very minor oil player, and the USA nor the market need their oil. But this is just about some looting and unrest around the country. All this does is create traffic jams, ruin a few businessmen (who happen to be associated with chavista government officials). It's more of an intra chavista gang war. But the consequences will be dire because there's going to be very little interest by business to get in bed with Chavistas if they have these mafia wars using looters. They need to handle this privately and just have their shootouts in a warehouse or whatever.
MADem
(135,425 posts)We also "import" and then refine and return it to VZ as gasoline. Their oil is heavy and sour. The Chinese can refine it in some of their refineries, but that's a long way to ship crap before it can be turned into treasure.
Oil prices are coming down, too--the gouging bastards aren't passing all of the savings on to their customers, but they are. Also, there are more options these days for the winter heating season, "thanks" to fracking and other extraction methods for natural gas.
Any time there is a disruption in any energy sector, it most certainly "matters," but it might not matter as much as it once did--VZ's production is WAY down from years past, mainly because they haven't been maintaining their equipment and can't get as much of the crap outta the ground, and they've also had a number of industrial accidents due to lack of maintenance as well.
They are doing more business with China, and China doesn't play--they can't stiff-arm those guys, nationalize their stuff, not pay what they owe, and get away with it. They need to get correct and fix the problems with this sector, it's not like they can diversify and do other things--their country has one big source of income, and that's oil. They're so unstable and violent they can't even count on tourism--who wants to get robbed on holiday, after all?
spanza
(507 posts)Last year, Venezuela's main refinery caught fire which led to the country needing to import a little gas from the US. Otherwise Venezuela is completely auto-sufficient and (still) exports quite a lot of refined products, even if the sector has been badly stagnating for the last 13 years. Venezuela has many types of oil ranging from medium to extra-heavy (never as heavy as Canadian tar sands from Alberta, though).
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)They don't have the refining capability for their own crude so they need to import the gasoline.
spanza
(507 posts)only in Amuay which evolves around 450,000 bpd in recent years. But there are other refineries. In total, Venezuela has around 2 times the refining capacity for its total consumption. Something like 1,5 million bpd.
After the explosion, the country needed to import gas for around 9 months. It was conjunctural and this situation came to an end last july I believe. Last time I checked, Venezuela wasn't importing anymore.
hack89
(39,171 posts)when you subsidize gasoline such that the price is much less than the cost to produce it, two things happen.
1. You lose a shit ton of money.
2. Demand spikes to the point where it cannot be met by domestic producers.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)s
spanza
(507 posts)Price of gas should be progressively increased for private cars and subsidies kept for public transportation.
Did you know a rise of 35% in gas prices is what led to the Caracazo in 1989?
EX500rider
(10,866 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)See here:
Experts said that Venezuela has shifted from exporter to importer of gasoline under the Hugo Chávez administration, which is forced to import fuel and components to process it from the United States, not only for internal consumption but to allow the state enterprise Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A. (PDVSA) to fulfill contractual commitments.
The experts fear that the government will choose to ration the fuel because of its inability to contain the contraband and increase production....The deficit in the system is caused by a combination of factors ranging from an abrupt plunge in production, an increase in the number of vehicles and the flight of thousands of barrels of the extremely cheap Venezuelan gasoline to Colombia, Brazil and Guyana.
Its a perfect combination, said Horacio Medina, former manager of PDVSA. As long as these factors are in play, it will be very difficult to solve this problem.
The fact that Venezuela is lacking refinery capacity is a paradox for a country that boasts of having the largest reserves of crude oil on the planet, estimated at 316,000 millions of barrels, and that only 10 years ago exported gasoline to other countries, including the United States.
Today, its the United States that sells large volumes of crude oil to Venezuela.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/23/2965352_venezuela-imports-oil-despite.html#storylink=cpy
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/11/us-oil-venezuela-refinery-idUSBRE9AA0V620131111
According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, Venezuela increased again its fuel imports from the United States to 96,000 bpd in August, compared with 64,000 bpd in July.
They have some real PROBLEMS. They aren't getting better by not talking about them, which seems to be Maduro's technique for dealing with the issues. Pretty soon he's going to have to pay the piper.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Who's bleeding Venezuela's economy dry?
And where is the money going?
I thought they'd severed relations with almost everyone.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Their oil requires a lot of handling--it's funky stuff and USA has refineries that can process it efficiently (and we do--and we also send it back to them as motor oil, gasoline, etc.).
They also have people in the government who skim, steal and divert the product. Then there are "businessmen" -- private citizens who are friends of the regime who are doing the same thing; selling the stuff to smugglers in Colombia, Brasil, etc.
It's a corrupt shithole. Everyone is out for themselves. They should have used the oil to lift themselves up as a nation; instead, the "Boligarchs" use the oil to enrich themselves personally, and they trade it to Cuba in exchange for doctors and some governmental management assistance (which isn't too good, if you ask me...).
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Revolutions often end up with conservative outcomes, no matter what the intent.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)It's almost like overcompensation or something.
Or real fear that socialism could be a viable alternative to corporate capitalism.
Unlike all the Nobel prize-winning economists posting on this thread, I'm not sure of the root causes of Venezuela's problems are. I wish them the best and hope they really can create a better society.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)defending of the Venezuelan govt. by some here, despite the obvious massive mismanagement and widespread corruption of the Ven. govt.
And the blaming the U.S. for all their ills.
I too wish the people of Ven. the best and hope they can create a better society, but it's pretty obvious at this point that the Chavez/Maduro economic model is a complete failure and, unless drastic measures are taken soon, the economy is going to collapse, which will impact the poor the most.
And just to clarify, the derision is not directed at the average citizen of Ven., it's directed at the Ven. govt. and their toadies and apologists.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The entire government is corrupt, and the fish rots from the head.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)Smart and engaged in their elections. Why can't you let them pick their own leader? Why do you feel YOU know what's best for them?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Everything Maduro knows about counting votes he learned from Joe Stalin. And since he's decided he wants to rule by decree, we can say that "democracy"--on life support for many years--is truly dead in VZ.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/11/13/uk-venezuela-politics-idUKBRE9AC03720131113
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)And Chavez? Were all those elections stolen?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)And if they are not much better, why so much focus on Venezuela?
I think it's lingering anti-communism. The Scoop Jackson wing of the Democratic Party lives.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)don't have an overvalued currency, inflation rate of 50%, police checking prices at appliance stores, or a president seeking rule by decree.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)don't have the crime rate that Venezuela has.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)on the news and such but its like half that of what occurs in Venezuela.
MADem
(135,425 posts)along with that toilet paper.
And yeah, I haven't seen the Mexican leadership trumping up charges against opposition leaders in order to fake a majority so that they can rule by decree.
VZ is so fucked up. It's just pathetic. What's more pathetic is that there are people here on DU who just refuse to see the obvious, because they just can't bear the thought that "Con Maduro, the nation is screwed-o!"
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)on the U.S., to do that would mean that they have to admit that the Chavistas (Chavez/Maduro) and the Merry band of thugs are failures and that their brand of socialism has also failed.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Simply cease to trade with them. Put sanctions on them--they'd fold like a house of cards.
USA doesn't do that, though. In fact, beyond saying "Man, that dude Maduro is f--ed up," and making sure that they pay their bills that they incur with us (easy to do, because they send their oil to us for refining), we leave them to their own messes.
There are a few ardent Capriles fans, mostly in FL, but they aren't Americans--they are Venezuelans who ran like hell when VZ started getting crazy. There are a lot of VZers in Puerto Rico, too, and they aren't rich--they're barely getting by, but they'd rather endure in the relative safety of PR than risk life and limb in VZ.
I think if Bozo the Clown got elected in VZ, USA wouldn't give a shit, so long as Bozo paid his bills, didn't abuse his people, and didn't try to blame others for his own sins.
Socialistlemur
(770 posts)Venezuela is a poor suffering country. Maduro is a clown. Scorn is directed at Maduro and not at Venezuela. Nobody is afraid because Maduro isn't a socialist. He thinks he is a communist but in practice he's more like a mental asylum case. If you are not aware of what's going on, I suggest you start learning. It's a fascinating case of a country being destroyed by an incredibly corrupt government led by a nutcase.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)which in this case is a failing economy, 50%+ inflation with no end in sight, a failing electrical grid, basic commodities shortages, the highest crime rate in Latin America, massive mismanagement of the economy by the former Chavez govt, now the Maduro govt, which is the same govt, and widespread corruption within that govt.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)elected multiple times?
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)And you can blame the woes of Ven. on the U.S. all you like, but every respected economist has stated that the Venezuelan economy is coming apart at the seams because of the massive mismanagement of the govt and the widespread corruption within that govt.
But I guess it's ok with some members here to blame the U.S. for the Ven. govt. failures, to admit that the Chavez, now Maduro, govt totally screwed the economy would be to admit that they were failures, and we can't have that now, can we.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)Four times...
Venezuelans seem to prefer leftist leaders. It's kind of elitist to think that you know better than them.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)and now look at their economy.
And you can blame their woes on the U.S. all you want, but that's just a diversion meant to distract attention from the horrible economic situation created by this leftist govt.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)I don't see Venezuela with their nose up our ass, trying to tell us how to run our country.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Last edited Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:29 PM - Edit history (1)
if they want to run their economy into ruin, and the Chavezistas are well on their way, that's their business, but the one's who'll suffer the worse are the poor, you know, the ones the Chavezistas claim they speak for.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)fingerprints are all over this "crisis" then you should read more.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Maduro and his merry band of thugs are doing the job of destroying the economy quite nicely.
You want to blame the U.S. because you just can't stand the thought that maybe, just maybe, the economic model that the Chavez, now Maduro, govt. is a complete failure and the U.S. meme is a convenient way to distract from what's really going on.
And I have read lots on what's happening in Ven. I spent time in the country back in the 70's with the Navy Seabees helping the people with rebuilding their infrastructure, the ordinary people of Ven. are some of the greatest people I've ever met, warm, friendly, giving, I made a number of friends there that I still communicate with from time to time and they give me the low down on what is actually happening, not the govt. version.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)sponsored debacle, which is the height of diversion tactics, are losing their effectiveness.
An Economic Crisis of Historic Proportions
by Moisés Naím
"The crisis includes a fiscal deficit approaching 20 percent of the economy (in the cliff-panicking United States it is 7 percent), a black market where a U.S. dollar costs four times more than the government-determined exchange rate, one of the world's highest inflation rates, a swollen number of public sector jobs, debt 10 times larger than it was in 2003, a fragile banking system and the free fall of the state-controlled oil industry, the country's main source of revenue.
Oil-exporting countries rarely face hard currency shortages, but the Chávez regime may be the exception. Mismanagement and lack of investment have decreased oil production. Meanwhile oil revenue is compromised partly because of Chávezs decision to supply Venezuelans with the country's most valuable resource at heavily subsidized prices. Thus a large and growing share of locally produced oil is sold domestically at the lowest prices in the world (in Venezuela it costs 25 cents to fill the tank of a mid-sized car).
Another share of the oil output is shipped abroad to Cuba and other Chávez allies, and to China, which bought oil in advance at deeply discounted prices (apparently the revenue from China has already been spent). Most of the crude left to be exported at market prices is sold to Venezuela's best client, and, ironically, Chávez's main foe: the United States. Yet, as a result of America's own oil boom, U.S. imports of Venezuelan oil have recently hit a 30-year low.
Moreover, due to an explosion in its main refinery, Venezuela is now forced to import gasoline. The Financial Times reckons that for each 10 barrels of crude it sells to the US, it has to import back (at a higher price) two barrels of oil refined abroad. Meanwhile, the nation's total imports have jumped from $13 billion in 2003 to over $50 billion currently. Paying for those imports and servicing its huge debt requires more hard currency than Venezuela's weakened economy can generate."
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/01/03/venezuela-post-chavez/chavez-will-leave-behind-an-economic-crisis
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)a failed,corrupt regime who has completely ruined the economy by claiming that U.S. interference in Ven. domestic affairs is responsible for the coming collapse of the economy and all the chaos that will follow it.
If it weren't so pathetic, it would be funny.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)truth is beginning to take shape, finally.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Somehow tricking them into making horrible economic policy choices?
EX500rider
(10,866 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,630 posts)after Richard M. Nixon told Richard Helms, his CIA chief, he wanted him to "make the economy scream?"
When you feel well enough to do more than join the idiots' choir trying to kill Maduro
through ignorant insults you owe it to yourself to discover how things go in a country which the US has decided to destroy from inside.
If you took the time to learn what already has happened, you'd discover they are simply doing the very same thing all over again in Venzuela. Only an idiot or a liar wouldn't acknowledge it.
Do your homework, just the way Democrats do when they expect to know the truth.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Because as far as I can see their biggest problem, the shortage of dollars, is purely self inflicted.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)that the U.S. is responsible for the economic mess in Ven.
Your comment smacks of desperation because you can't defend what Maduro and his Merry band of thugs have so screwed the economy that nothing short of drastic measures will save it, and even then, it's a crap shoot on whether or not that would help.
But I understand your angst, it's hard for you and a few others to admit that your favorite leftist leader is a failure.
Judi Lynn
(160,630 posts)That doesn't make sense.
It would benefit you to humble yourself and do some actual reading and searching for real information.
All the screwing around attempting to mock Democrats at a Democratic message board doesn't carry the weight you seem to hope it does. In so many cases Democrats ARE leftists. Why would you not know that?
You fall for the bogus information, you drag it here, throw it around among those of your cluster, and treat it as the truth. It's a poor substitute.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)So your saying that Ven. isn't experiencing 50%+ inflation? Or declining oil production, failing electrical grid, rampant govt. mismanagement and massive corruption, highest crime rate in Latin America, basic commodities shortages, etc?
And your also saying that the U.S. is responsible for this?
Your really flailing here, you and your cohorts just can't stand the fact that the grand experiment of the Chavez/Maduro govt is a massive failure, so, you have to throw that tired meme of it must be the U.S. that's behind all this because, heaven forbid, we can't admit what the real problem is.
And, btw, I'm mocking those that refuse to pull their head out of the sand and see the real problem instead of blaming everyone else for the complete and utter failure of the Chavezistas.
I know a hell of alot more of Ven. problems than you think I do, I just don't walk in lockstep with the corrupt Ven. govt like you and others here.
EX500rider
(10,866 posts)So can we claim that for other countries too? How about Germany? Cambodia? France? UK?
MADem
(135,425 posts)And you've gotta use a country that isn't Venezuela as your example?
What happened in the middle of the last century in another country has nothing to do with the problems Venezuela is experiencing owing to corrupt mismanagement and meglomaniacal leadership.
If anyone should be hitting the books, it's you. Next thing we know, you'll be comparing Kenya to Zimbabwe, because, ya know, they're both in Africa....
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)Which they are learning the hard way as they bungle basic things like foreign currency reserves and as they scare off desperately needed foreign investment.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Maduro and his merry band of thugs are sticking it to the economy and the results, unless drastic measures are taken soon, will be a collapsed economy which will affect the poor the hardest, you know, those that the Maduro clan claim they're trying to help.
hack89
(39,171 posts)he was a poor choice to succeed Hugo.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)I bet Mr. Chavez would not pleased if he saw how things are going down.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)the country was experiencing the same conditions when he was in charge also.
This didn't just happen when Maduro took over, this is the results of years of govt. mismanagement of the economy and widespread corruption within the Ven. govt.
spanza
(507 posts)with what is discussed in Venezuela.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)I remember the warmth and generosity of the Ven. people, I truly hope the best for you and the people of Ven. during these difficult economic times.
spanza
(507 posts)I just read your other post too, it must have been a very interesting experience. Tourists could hardly imagine.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)we went where tourists don't go and the people were just fantastic, they welcomed us with open arms.
I think the biggest thing for them was the fact we didn't come in with armaments, we came in as builders.
spanza
(507 posts)From the right-wing is the usual amalgamation. But from the left, there's a lot of disappointment, which is what hard-line chavista fail to see. Criticism and rectification are not allowed in this process nowadays, the only value is loyalty. Thanks for your good wishes though.
MADem
(135,425 posts)And I don't mean by the US or any other governmental entities, they've been given a great hand in the game of life courtesy of Mother Nature.
They aren't a drought-baked shithole with no natural resources, they are a beautiful nation, laden with natural beauty, a national gift of oil out their asses, a population of intelligent people who are capable of so much more than they are doing, and they aren't doing shit-all with it. Why? It's all because a bunch of "boligarchs" are robbing them blind, skimming off the top, engaging in croney-criminal enterprises, and selling the people--kept in poverty and thrown bones like cell phones and a little urgent medical care by an indentured Cuban doctor--a story about evil boogey-men who are to blame for all their problems, when that's bullshit.
The leadership is to blame, they are corrupt, stupid, short-sighted and shameless.
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)But I think alot of it was hastily done without really thinking things all the way through. without having a solid plan in place for some of it.
Beacool
(30,253 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)my Seabee battalion was sent to Venezuela to help build roads, improve the infrastructure, the Venezuelan citizens we met and worked with were just wonderful to us, they would bring us home cooked food, yummmm, invite us into their homes, just warm and giving people.
I'll never forget the friends I made there, that's why it pains me to see how badly the present govt has so screwed the country, although, the govt back then wasn't exactly very friendly to the average citizen.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Your dad was one of the original Seabees? The Seabees were formed in WWII due to the lack of Naval construction personnel, the first Seabees were drawn from citizens who were already in the construction trade, usually they were older than your average inductee or volunteer.
Response to Ranchemp. (Reply #160)
freshwest This message was self-deleted by its author.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)He was what we call a plank owner, which refers to the first crew on a newly commissioned ship.
He was a pioneer in Naval construction.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Guess it's part of the wbat those who came after him learned. I googled and found a lot I never knew.
I thought the Seabees were retired with WW2. I was wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seabee_%28US_Navy%29
I did know engineers and geologists who worked in Venezuela in the fifties. All their work is gone, I guess, and for the best in the eyes of the natives.
Those people were in love with everything about Venezuela, but I had no idea of political reality of those days.
I see from the Wiki page where your work came in and am amazed at the world wide use of Seabees.
sheshe2
(83,925 posts)I am so sorry that you lost him at such a young age.
He took to war to save his brothers from leaving their families. He returned to build his sisters modest homes. Beautiful freshwest.
You had a dear sweet father, he gave you books. You were blessed.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)McXorsett
(21 posts)In my opinion.