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Zorro

(15,749 posts)
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:09 AM Nov 2013

Maduro urges calm as Venezuelans jam stores again

Source: AP

President Nicolas Maduro, who called for an emptying of shelves when he seized control of a slew of appliance retailers last week, urged calm Monday as Venezuelans massed outside stores nationwide for a fourth straight day.

Maduro, in a nationally televised address, charged that opposition agitators had infiltrated the long lines that have formed in several cities and were trying to stir up violence. He said he was deploying tens of thousands of volunteer civilian militiamen to assist security forces in crowd control.

"Be calm, these products will stay where they are," Maduro said, adding that under no circumstances would he allow companies to gouge consumers again. "There's no need to sleep outside store doors. Nobody should despair. Nobody should get anxious."

Tension has hung over much of Venezuela since Maduro last week took control of several electronics retailers he accuses of hiking prices to sow discontent and destabilize his rule. This week the government is expanding its crackdown to businesses selling clothes, shoes and automobiles, all of which have seen prices shoot up in tandem with a sharp drop in Venezuela's bolivar currency on the illegal black market.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/maduro-urges-calm-venezuelans-jam-025926774.html

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Maduro urges calm as Venezuelans jam stores again (Original Post) Zorro Nov 2013 OP
business is good! strong demand! ..nt quadrature Nov 2013 #1
See Maduro fans? Socialism works! Archae Nov 2013 #2
Socialism, Communism ... same thing, right? 1000words Nov 2013 #4
Well then. We can all go home now because Venezuela is just like North Korea and Soviet Russia. pa28 Nov 2013 #5
A hell of a lot better than Venezuela, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #20
Why do the stories keep talking about TVs? That other stuff is more important. freshwest Nov 2013 #50
Those countries aren't being interfered with bitchkitty Nov 2013 #55
Ooooooooh, the big bad boogie man to explain the train wreck that Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #71
14 years of chavismo got Ven to where it is today Bacchus4.0 Nov 2013 #72
Why did all that happen? Nationalization should have paid for all of that. freshwest Nov 2013 #146
Not if oil production steadily declines hack89 Nov 2013 #156
US interventionism ronnie624 Nov 2013 #100
the US hasn't forced Maduro to rule by decree or maintain a failed economic policy n/t Bacchus4.0 Nov 2013 #102
No one is forcing VZ to make very poor economic decisions hack89 Nov 2013 #103
Epic fail. Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #105
Bankrupt? Once again, where did the money go? freshwest Nov 2013 #150
They spent it hack89 Nov 2013 #157
Declining oil production while Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #158
Pulsa Merica: "IMF says Venezuela’s economic situation is ‘not sustainable’" Tarheel_Dem Nov 2013 #106
the US is the debbil! that's it i'm throwing down. dionysus Nov 2013 #121
Yup. It's always us. Any world leader that's in trouble at home, can always divert by blaming.... Tarheel_Dem Nov 2013 #123
'Course.....we did that bad thing somewhere... EX500rider Nov 2013 #128
Ya got that right! Tarheel_Dem Nov 2013 #133
Back in 1953? bitchkitty Nov 2013 #174
It reminds me of the Iraq War cheerleaders. There must be a war. Where is it? freshwest Nov 2013 #142
Members of OPEC, huge exporter of oil, nationalized the goodies... WTF? freshwest Nov 2013 #144
And as for freedom of the press? It exists only in the minds of the Snowdenistas. Tarheel_Dem Nov 2013 #108
you're darn tootin it was! dionysus Nov 2013 #124
EVIL! EVIL, I say! Tarheel_Dem Nov 2013 #127
I keep hearing that in the voice of the old lady in a Doctor Who episode. Campy, but scary. freshwest Nov 2013 #145
I know, bad us, buying their oil and all...n/t EX500rider Nov 2013 #126
Those are democracies. Venezuela is NOT a Democracy dbackjon Nov 2013 #26
The Democracy watchers sent by the U.N. and other voter dotymed Nov 2013 #75
So, you're asserting that the reason their economy is coming apart at the seams Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #77
CARTER CENTER warns about unfairness of Venezuelan elections spanza Nov 2013 #78
that is not what the Carter Center said during the last election Bacchus4.0 Nov 2013 #80
"aggressively trying to topple" EX500rider Nov 2013 #130
LOL. Let me know when I can move to that Norwegian hellhole... freshwest Nov 2013 #46
Last month it was proven dotymed Nov 2013 #13
No it was not hack89 Nov 2013 #15
^^^^^^^^^ *****THIS, exactly!**** ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MADem Nov 2013 #53
http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10109 dotymed Nov 2013 #66
This message was self-deleted by its author hack89 Nov 2013 #67
A mini-mart hoarding 3800 rolls of toilet paper is your proof? hack89 Nov 2013 #69
Holy Acronym! seveneyes Nov 2013 #97
"Read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" EX500rider Nov 2013 #132
Come over here to this woodshed! RedCloud Nov 2013 #161
I like this, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #3
Feeling low in the polls? Fearless Nov 2013 #6
Wow, your third wankfest in as many days! bitchkitty Nov 2013 #7
A masturbation reference? Really? And a personal attack? That's all you can come up with? MADem Nov 2013 #9
Don't I recall seeing references to excretory functions from you? Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #23
I don't call DUers "shit." And I don't think calling 'em "jerk-offs" is terribly cool, either. MADem Nov 2013 #34
Golly. bitchkitty Nov 2013 #28
any thoughts on the "revolucion" these days or you just gonna wank yourself? n/t Bacchus4.0 Nov 2013 #29
So, anyone who disagrees with your POV is a masturbator? Real nice. nt MADem Nov 2013 #35
Well, there's always mental masturbation. No sex involved. I think... freshwest Nov 2013 #48
No. Only the wankers who start wankfest. bitchkitty Nov 2013 #54
... MADem Nov 2013 #56
No. I am calling a spade a spade. bitchkitty Nov 2013 #57
No you aren't--you're using crude language and accusing people who don't MADem Nov 2013 #58
No. I haven't called you a right winger, have I? bitchkitty Nov 2013 #59
Well, gee--you wasted no time, there, I see. Real classy. MADem Nov 2013 #62
If one chooses to hang out with bitchkitty Nov 2013 #64
Yet you obviously gain great pleasure gleefully participating in these wankfests you criticize Zorro Nov 2013 #79
It's turned into a dogfight. I don't even remember the topic now. TVs? freshwest Nov 2013 #148
Well, I think people can disagree without being disagreeable, or calling people petty names. MADem Nov 2013 #151
Elections are coming. joshcryer Nov 2013 #11
Like we didn't know Socialism fails when Capitalists get their hands on it. Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #8
But capitalism doesn't fail when socialists get their hands on it? Psephos Nov 2013 #30
The US determined long ago to reduce the rest of the hemisphere into it's "backyard". Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #33
Not that I'd argue with that, but it's a non sequitur. n/t Psephos Nov 2013 #38
Tell that to the victims of the "School of the Americas". Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #40
The pattern for treatment of leftist governments has been repeated endlessly. Judi Lynn Nov 2013 #44
More to consider, same article: Judi Lynn Nov 2013 #45
The USSR failed due to a boycott by the West. This is the playbook for Venezuela... Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #51
Economic war with continual propaganda is much easier to accomplish, Judi Lynn Nov 2013 #52
Desperation wages and no vote? What's not for Republicans to love? Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #91
"The USSR failed due to a boycott by the West. This is the playbook for Venezuela.." EX500rider Nov 2013 #134
And the hits against the Chavezistas apologists talking points keep on coming. Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #136
It's the IMPORTS that matter.... Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #137
Yes and they currently import.. EX500rider Nov 2013 #138
That must come as a blow to UNICEF. Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #139
So shall it be written! ronnie624 Nov 2013 #141
Same attitude reflected by Richard Nixon's bloody, filthy puppet dictator, Judi Lynn Nov 2013 #42
Yup, and Henrique Capriles Radonski would have brought freedom,...by locking people up. Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #43
Absolutely. He's precisely their kind of guy. Creepy. n/t Judi Lynn Nov 2013 #47
He's really wishing China gave that loan right about now. joshcryer Nov 2013 #10
What's the t-shirt-color of those "volunteer civilian militiamen"? Brown? DetlefK Nov 2013 #12
This wont end well... Gary 50 Nov 2013 #14
Nah, I don't think he's got the country organized well enough for that. And not saying he would. freshwest Nov 2013 #147
ROFL, I wonder if this dude actually believes what he says- snooper2 Nov 2013 #16
Chavismo is all about the cheap LED HD tvs, what more can you ask? Bacchus4.0 Nov 2013 #17
The focus on consumer electronics seems odd. A lot left out of these stories. freshwest Nov 2013 #49
Will it impact us? bobGandolf Nov 2013 #18
Very little hack89 Nov 2013 #19
Ah, the old devil Oil packman Nov 2013 #21
No impact on the USA whatsoever. Socialistlemur Nov 2013 #32
We "buy" their oil to refine it and send it on, to a very great extent. MADem Nov 2013 #36
Not exactly. Citgo sells in the US. spanza Nov 2013 #81
no, Venezuela imports gasoline from the US Bacchus4.0 Nov 2013 #84
Bacchus, Venezuela has around 3/5 of the refining capacity for the whole country's consumption spanza Nov 2013 #89
Another basic economic lesson they have failed hack89 Nov 2013 #85
the subsidy also just benefits the car owning segment of society which is not poor n/t Bacchus4.0 Nov 2013 #87
3. People drive 30 year-old cars which use 1 liter/ 3km, pollution and traffic jams multiply spanza Nov 2013 #90
4. Smugglers haul as much as they can across the border. n/t EX500rider Nov 2013 #135
I'm not saying they don't have the reserves, but they do have a problem getting to them. MADem Nov 2013 #149
I don't understand, with all that oil, they'd have an unemployment, poverty, crime, etc. problem. freshwest Nov 2013 #152
They can't get to the oil because they haven't maintained the wells and fields. MADem Nov 2013 #154
Thanks so much for answering that, best yet on the thread. Sans ideology, great answer. freshwest Nov 2013 #171
What I don't understand is why Venezuela excites such scorn and derision. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #22
What I don't understand is the fanatical Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #24
Venezuelan people are great--it's Maduro that is a thief and the head crony. MADem Nov 2013 #37
I agree - they're wonderful. bitchkitty Nov 2013 #60
They haven't been allowed to pick their own leader, and you know that. MADem Nov 2013 #63
Oh, the election was stolen. I see... bitchkitty Nov 2013 #65
No, those were purchased, not stolen. nt MADem Nov 2013 #143
How does Venezuela compare with, say, Mexico or Honduras or Colombia? Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #104
in terms of what? Those countries do not lack toilet paper Bacchus4.0 Nov 2013 #114
Even Mexico, with their drug cartels, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #116
thats correct, over the past few years we hear of the horrible violence in Mexico Bacchus4.0 Nov 2013 #117
Mexican grocery stores are well stocked with staples like flour and chickens, too, MADem Nov 2013 #167
You can't really blame them for attempting to place the blame for the state of the economy Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #168
IF USA really wanted to screw with them, they could do it. MADem Nov 2013 #169
It's not Venezuela, it's Maduro Socialistlemur Nov 2013 #31
I don't think it is VEN. as much as it is the President of the country. hrmjustin Nov 2013 #39
Whom they elected. n/t bitchkitty Nov 2013 #61
Yep, and you gets what you pays for, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #74
Then why was Chavez bitchkitty Nov 2013 #86
Because he promised the poor everything at the expense of the better off. Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #88
So it was only the poor who voted for Chavez. bitchkitty Nov 2013 #107
Yep they seem to prefer leftist leaders, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #109
But that's their economy, not ours. bitchkitty Nov 2013 #110
And I don't see our govt telling them how to run their economy either, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #111
If you don't think that our bitchkitty Nov 2013 #112
We don't need to interfere in Ven. domestic affairs, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #115
Take off the blinders, bitchkitty. This has been predicted for years, and claims that this is a US Tarheel_Dem Nov 2013 #118
This person and a few others are desperately trying to defend Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #119
It is pretty pathetic, at this point. Chavez was just a much better salesman than Maduro. The..... Tarheel_Dem Nov 2013 #122
So the US influenced VZ domestic policy making hack89 Nov 2013 #120
Yep, and we made them not maintain or expand their electric capacity too! nt EX500rider Nov 2013 #164
Didn't bother to learn anything about what the U.S. did to Chile Judi Lynn Nov 2013 #125
So America tricked VZ into implementing disasterous domestic policies? hack89 Nov 2013 #129
Wow, you dredge up something that happened in the 70's, in Chile, not even Ven., as proof Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #131
You hope to claim the U.S. wouldn't do anything it has already done? Judi Lynn Nov 2013 #140
Bogus information? Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #159
"You hope to claim the U.S. wouldn't do anything it has already done?" EX500rider Nov 2013 #165
You have to go back to Dead Dick Nixon to try to "prove" your point? MADem Nov 2013 #166
Well I still think the issue is the President, not the people. hrmjustin Nov 2013 #101
Don't you know Capitalism is a RELIGION? Anything else is EVIL. Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #41
The irony it's that VZ depends on capitalism to feed its people hack89 Nov 2013 #68
Face it. This is a stick up. Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #92
Agreed. Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #94
I think Maduro is simply in over his head and desperate hack89 Nov 2013 #96
He really don't seem to have much of a clue penultimate Nov 2013 #162
Same conditions existed before his death, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #163
Although that may be the content of the debate in your country, it has little to do spanza Nov 2013 #83
The discusion coming out of the walled communities sounds like the Tea Party. Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #93
I visited your country in the 70's with the U.S. Navy, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #95
Thanks a lot Ranchemp spanza Nov 2013 #98
It was very enlightening, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #99
It depends from what perspective spanza Nov 2013 #82
It's because they've been "given" so much. MADem Nov 2013 #155
Fascism is never the answer dbackjon Nov 2013 #25
What a train wreck that guy is. nt Dreamer Tatum Nov 2013 #27
I think the VZ leaders have been tryng to do the right thing by the people Marrah_G Nov 2013 #70
Poor Venezuela, it's a shadow of its former self. Beacool Nov 2013 #73
Back in the early 70's, Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #76
My dad was a Seabee in WW2. Didn't know they'd go to Venezuela. It sounds great. freshwest Nov 2013 #153
It was great, beautiful country, great people. Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #160
This message was self-deleted by its author freshwest Nov 2013 #170
I'm sorry to hear about your dad's passing when you were 13. Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #172
TY. Your reply had me stumped. He never mentioned the term 'plank owners.' freshwest Nov 2013 #173
Your dad sounds like an amazing man. sheshe2 Nov 2013 #175
Thanks, Sheshe. freshwest Nov 2013 #176
Obviously, Maduro should not call for violence McXorsett Nov 2013 #113

Archae

(46,347 posts)
2. See Maduro fans? Socialism works!
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:59 AM
Nov 2013

Just as it worked in the old Soviet Union, China under Mao, North Korea, the Sandanistas, etc...

pa28

(6,145 posts)
5. Well then. We can all go home now because Venezuela is just like North Korea and Soviet Russia.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:26 AM
Nov 2013

You should probably add the disasters of socialist Finland, Denmark, New Zealand and Norway. It's absolute hell in those places I hear.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
20. A hell of a lot better than Venezuela,
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:18 AM
Nov 2013

last I heard, those countries aren't experiencing 50%+ inflation, a failing electrical grid, basic commodities shortages, declining oil production, economy coming off the rails, the highest crime rate in Latin America, widespread govt. corruption and massive mismanagement of the economy.
Shall I keep going?

Venezuela is in no way comparable to those countries, they know how to manage their economies, unlike Maduro and co.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
50. Why do the stories keep talking about TVs? That other stuff is more important.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:54 AM
Nov 2013

Not getting the whole story. Thanks for the details. That is not quoted in the OPs.

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
55. Those countries aren't being interfered with
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 05:59 AM
Nov 2013

like Venezuela. I'm sure that management of Venezuela would go a lot more smoothly without U.S. interference and deliberate destabilization.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
71. Ooooooooh, the big bad boogie man to explain the train wreck that
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 10:35 AM
Nov 2013

Chavez/Maduro have made of their country.
That's not going to work anymore, anyone with eyes and an ounce of sense can see that the Ven. govt has completely dicked up the economy, they don't need any help from the US to do that.

But y'all keep on making excuses for why the country is coming apart at the seams economically instead of looking at the real culprits.

Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
72. 14 years of chavismo got Ven to where it is today
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 10:42 AM
Nov 2013

highest murder rate in latin america, import 70% + of their needs, kidnapping capital of the world, failing health system, no funcitoning justice system, prison system run by prisoners, highest inflation in the hemisphere, laws against insulting public officials, failed economic system, and of course rule by decree.

Hey, but gas is cheap.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
100. US interventionism
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:56 PM
Nov 2013

would absolutely have to be the most influential element in the modern history of Latin America and the Caribbean. Our policy initiatives in the region are founded on doctrines that clearly state an intention of aggressive dominance. The Pentagon's budget includes hundreds of billions of dollars devoted to "full spectrum dominance" of South America. Further, we have a clear, voluminously documented history of conduct in the region, which includes such acts as organizing and financing devastating wars, toppling democracies in favor of dictatorships, overt military aggression, and just the general and continuous interference in the region's political and economic affairs, all for completely self-serving reasons.

Anyone who forms an opinion about Venezuela without considering all of this, is demonstrating an astonishing level of willful ignorance.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
103. No one is forcing VZ to make very poor economic decisions
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:44 PM
Nov 2013

America is not stopping them from running their country in a rational and competent manner.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
105. Epic fail.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:57 PM
Nov 2013

The U.S. isn't forcing Maduro to bankrupt the country, nor is it forcing Maduro to rule by decree.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
158. Declining oil production while
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 10:06 AM
Nov 2013

at the same time massive govt programs. Simple answer, they're spending way more than they're earning.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,241 posts)
106. Pulsa Merica: "IMF says Venezuela’s economic situation is ‘not sustainable’"
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:41 PM
Nov 2013
"The International Monetary Fund (IMF) indicated this Friday that the growing “imbalances” in the Venezuelan economy have created a situation that currently ‘is not sustainable.’

Alejandro Werner, director of western hemisphere affairs for the IMF, stated that this bleak outlook is due to high inflation, foreign exchange shortages, and high levels of scarcity with respect to basic goods.

The latest IMF calculations place Venezuela’s 2013 inflation at 45 percent and economic growth at 1 percent.

‘All of the trends in these indicators are rising. We don’t see a potential inflection point or a reversal,’ Werner said to journalists at the annual IMF meetings in Washington, DC."

http://www.pulsamerica.co.uk/2013/10/15/economy-imf-says-venezuelas-economic-situation-is-not-sustainable/


How is the US responsible for this?

Tarheel_Dem

(31,241 posts)
123. Yup. It's always us. Any world leader that's in trouble at home, can always divert by blaming....
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 07:24 PM
Nov 2013

the Evil Empire, aka, the U.S.

EX500rider

(10,866 posts)
128. 'Course.....we did that bad thing somewhere...
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 07:40 PM
Nov 2013

....to a country a few countries away back in 1953!

So of course from then on we own any and all bad things that happen for ever.

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
174. Back in 1953?
Sat Nov 16, 2013, 12:19 AM
Nov 2013

Are you being deliberately stupid as a way of demonstrating sarcasm?

1954: Guatemala
1964: Brazil
1973: Chile
1984-1986: Nicaragua

No, we don't own every bad thing that happens. But only an idiot would think that we are completely innocent.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
142. It reminds me of the Iraq War cheerleaders. There must be a war. Where is it?
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 02:28 AM
Nov 2013

Whenever there is evil to be fought, and a battle to be won. Peace is boring. Somewhere, in this world, something is wrong!

LOL at the 'debbil.'

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
144. Members of OPEC, huge exporter of oil, nationalized the goodies... WTF?
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 02:37 AM
Nov 2013

How can they be broke? It's not like Venezuela is some desert wasteland, either. No need for anyone to do without.

Something is wrong. And I don't know why, but my friends from Mexico all hated Hugo. Why?

This should have worked. I don't see this as problem of the USA as much as the same problem it's always been -- the remnants of the colonial system, oligarchs, the failure of land reform.

That's what a socialist solution would be, that and education and basic needs to improve the lives of the people, build a middle class economy. That is not what happened there apparently.

And where the hell did all the oil money go?

Tarheel_Dem

(31,241 posts)
108. And as for freedom of the press? It exists only in the minds of the Snowdenistas.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:49 PM
Nov 2013
Venezuelan radio journalist arrested on air
Oct. 11, 2013

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — A Venezuelan radio journalist was arrested by police detectives on the air just minutes after complaining to listeners that they drive around in luxury cars and wear flashy jewelry, the man's son said Friday.

Victor Hugo Donaire, 50, remained in jail Friday, a day after four officers of the national investigative police interrupted his morning show at Radio Los Morros in the Guarico state capital of San Juan.

He was being held on charges of resisting arrest and mistreating a public official, said his son, Danny Donaire, the station's vice president.

He said the officers manhandled station employees, confiscating the cellphone of its administrator so she could not take photos.

Audio of the scuffle was broadcast by various Venezuelan news media.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/venezuelan-radio-journalist-arrested-air


Is this the fault of the US also?

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
145. I keep hearing that in the voice of the old lady in a Doctor Who episode. Campy, but scary.
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 02:39 AM
Nov 2013

Then the alien thing got them. No, she fainted. Very well screeched it was.

dotymed

(5,610 posts)
75. The Democracy watchers sent by the U.N. and other voter
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 10:49 AM
Nov 2013

organizations (one headed by Jimmy carter) have ALL commented on the excellent voting practices of Venezuela.

Venezuelan voting has been much cleaner than any U.S. voting has.

America is (and has for many decades) aggressively trying to topple the Democratic Socialist government of Venezuela (Brazil and other South American sovereign nations) mainly because of their oil (America Inc.) and because "they" do not want Americans to see that this system can work, very well, in our own back-yards.
If the European Democratic Socialist nations had massive natural resource reserves they too would be under American sponsored covert attacks.
Yes, Venezuela is Democratic with a capital D.
Yes, America has a long history of exerting heavy influence over natural reserve rich, South American countries. Venezuela and Brazil finally said "enough" and started programs to re-distribute the wealth to the millions of peasants (from the handful of very wealthy S. Americans) although they ("we&quot still have hegemony over Columbia and other U.S. bought nations.

I can imagine how hard it would be with the U.S. govt. and it's corporate thugs always trying to destroy your govt. from outside and inside. To me that is why it is hard to know if Chavez and now Maduro are using the correct methods.

If America would stop destabilizing those economies and be good neighbors (which they won't), these Democratic Socialist nations could prosper or implode on their own volition.
Please Read, CONFESSIONS OF AN ECONOMIC HIT MAN, by John Perkins, it will inform you much better than I can. Also, Do Not believe the MSM.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
77. So, you're asserting that the reason their economy is coming apart at the seams
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:01 AM
Nov 2013

is the fault of the U.S.? And the massive mismanagement of the economy by the late Chavez govt. and now the Maduro govt, which is the same govt., and the widespread corruption within the Maduro govt has nothing to do with it?

Talk about sticking you head in the sand.
The U.S. doesn't need to de-stabilize the Ven. economy, Maduro and his merry band of thugs are doing a great job of it all by themselves, blaming the U.S. is just a distraction to keep the masses from learning the real truth about why the country is going to hell in a handbasket.
It's like, look over here, not over there.

spanza

(507 posts)
78. CARTER CENTER warns about unfairness of Venezuelan elections
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:10 AM
Nov 2013

Originally in Spanish, translated to English by another DUer

Jimmy Carter once praised the Venezuelan electoral system as "the best in the world", which has been repeated numerous times by Hugo Chávez and now his successor, Nicolás Maduro. Nevertheless, in the last few years, the Carter Center organization has been backing more the accusations brought by the opposition.

The director of the program in the Americas for the Carter Center, Jennifer McCoy, alerted today that in the electoral procedures which have transpired in the last few years in Venezuela, there has been a surge of "ventajismo" (advantage-ism?) as a factor of accusations due to the use of public resources by the Chavista candidates.

McCoy commented that since the years 2005 and 2006, the Venezuelan National Electoral Council (CNE) initiated a phase of consultations with political parties, and that there has been more participation in audits of the system since then, which has generated more confidence from public opinion regarding the automated mechanized voting method.

However, "in the most recent years (...) the subject of ventajismo has risen," said the representative for the Carter Center when referring to the claims made by the opposition in the last few elections regarding the use of public resources, including state-owned media, in Chavista campaigns.

"We have seen that the confidence of Venezuela (in the electoral system) has many ups and downs", said McCoy during a video conference which she offered in the Congreso Internacional Buenas Prácticas Electorales para el Fortalecimiento de la Democracia, which took place in the Catholic University of Andrés Bello (UCAB), one of the most prestigious academic institutions in the country.

This past July the Carter Center sent out a preliminary report regarding April's last presidential elections in which they recommended to guarantee in the future more equity in the campaigns and to explain clearly the norms which regulate the participation of public servants in them.

The report found "a series of inequities in the conditions of the Chavista campaign, both regarding the access to financial resources as well as access to communication mediums." The Venezuelan opposition has criticized many times the indiscreet use of public funding for the financing of Chavista campaigns.

http://www.infobae.com/2013/11/05/1521518-el-centro-carter-alerta-el-ventajismo-las-elecciones-venezolanas

Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
80. that is not what the Carter Center said during the last election
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:15 AM
Nov 2013

the US is Venezuela's number one oil purchaser and supplies about $1 billion worth of goods per month to Ven.

EX500rider

(10,866 posts)
130. "aggressively trying to topple"
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 07:48 PM
Nov 2013

No.....if we "aggressively tried to topple" ANY country-they go the way of Saddam, Gaddafi and Mohammed Omar.

dotymed

(5,610 posts)
13. Last month it was proven
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 08:56 AM
Nov 2013

that "Big business" was hoarding and over pricing food. Read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man and your views may change.

If this doesn't work, watch out for the drones.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
15. No it was not
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:59 AM
Nov 2013

what is happening is that businesses can't get enough legal dollars to by products to put on the shelves. On top of that you have out of control inflation that drives up replacement costs of goods - the result is either high prices as businesses try to capture their actual cost or businesses stop selling because they are losing money.

Response to dotymed (Reply #66)

 

seveneyes

(4,631 posts)
97. Holy Acronym!
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:31 PM
Nov 2013
http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10109

3800 More Toilet Paper Packs Found Hoarded
These actions were carried out by the audit staff of the National Costs and Prices Superintendency (Sundecop) and the Institute for the Defense of People's Access to Goods and Services (Indepabis) as part of the actions undertaken by the national government for the fight against shortages and hoarding.

Sunday Cop and In Debt Abyss. You can't make this stuff up.

EX500rider

(10,866 posts)
132. "Read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:03 PM
Nov 2013

"The State Department released a brief report called "Confessions — or Fantasies — of an Economic Hit Man" that took issue with one of Mr. Perkins' primary assertions: that the National Security Agency, with a wink and a nod, was aware of and may even have approved Mr. Perkins's hiring at Main.
"Perkins is apparently not aware that the National Security Agency is a cryptological (code-making and code-breaking) organization, not an economic organization," read the statement, which was released by the Bureau of International Information Programs. "Neither of these missions involves anything remotely resembling placing economists at private companies in order to increase the debt of foreign countries."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/business/yourmoney/19confess.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

RedCloud

(9,230 posts)
161. Come over here to this woodshed!
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 01:16 PM
Nov 2013

Knee jerk reaction without much investigation?

First, in Venezuela companies are notorious for hoarding to drive up prices. This is the shock and awe theory that so devastated Chile.

When I lived in Venezuela, I heard rumors of giant warehouses in the hills to hoard the goods. Well these warehouses were discovered and the people rioted. USA stayed true to form and did not report on the bloodshed except for a few token words each day. They were trying to get the crowd to do something in China and that to serve people .

Maybe some day Archae you will wake up and see how the capitalists have flooded your stores with absolute junk. Once you realize that you could be in store to see how much junk they put in people's heads!

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
3. I like this,
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:02 AM
Nov 2013

Maduro's calling for calm, even though it was him that started the whole mess by stealing the goods of a private company, jailing some of the managers, and practically invited people to come and just take the goods.

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
6. Feeling low in the polls?
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:46 AM
Nov 2013

Nationalize a bunch of stuff and create a false demand for it!

I call it the Oprah Effect:

"You get a car! You get a car! Everybody gets a car!"

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
7. Wow, your third wankfest in as many days!
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:13 AM
Nov 2013

And I haven't even looked at the Latin American forum. What gives you this burst of energy, this new lease on life?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
9. A masturbation reference? Really? And a personal attack? That's all you can come up with?
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:57 AM
Nov 2013

Those kinds of remarks contribute to the thread...not one bit.

If you have a comment in rebuttal that doesn't involve insult to the OP or a snark-remark about self-stimulation, let's hear it. Otherwise, your unfortunate decision to get personal with the thread starter reflect on you and no one else. You haven't added a thing to the discussion.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
23. Don't I recall seeing references to excretory functions from you?
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:50 PM
Nov 2013

Selective squeamishness, is it?

And I have just added as much to this thread as you did with your comment above. You're welcome.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
34. I don't call DUers "shit." And I don't think calling 'em "jerk-offs" is terribly cool, either.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:53 PM
Nov 2013

There's a difference, and it has nothing to do with "sqeamishness." Use a little bit of that insight I always imagined most progressives possess, and you'll appreciate the distinction.

If "You suck, and because I disagree with you, I will call you a nasty name" is the level of discourse to which we're aspiring here, then Skinner might as well sell this joint to YAHOO.

And you're welcome, back atcha. You knew what I meant, yet you chose to rebut with an obtuse understanding. Now, you should be entirely clear as to my meaning.

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
28. Golly.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:54 PM
Nov 2013

I'm so lucky to have you to teach me manners.

I stand by my right to use the word wankfest to describe a wankfest, like all these stupid threads are. Easier to type than "right wing circle jerk".

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
48. Well, there's always mental masturbation. No sex involved. I think...
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:47 AM
Nov 2013

I honestly don't know what is going on.



Just mention Rand and I'll come out cussing.




MADem

(135,425 posts)
58. No you aren't--you're using crude language and accusing people who don't
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:08 AM
Nov 2013

agree with your view of that nutjob Maduro of being right wingers.

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
59. No. I haven't called you a right winger, have I?
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:09 AM
Nov 2013

I'm not sure about you.

eta - I'm beginning to wonder though...

MADem

(135,425 posts)
62. Well, gee--you wasted no time, there, I see. Real classy.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:15 AM
Nov 2013

My reference was to your words upthread directed at another DUer:

I stand by my right to use the word wankfest to describe a wankfest, like all these stupid threads are. Easier to type than "right wing circle jerk".

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
64. If one chooses to hang out with
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:43 AM
Nov 2013

Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2013, 05:15 PM - Edit history (1)

wankers, that doesn't necessarily make one a wanker.

But if you want to own it by getting all defensive when I wasn't even talking to you, then be my guest - own it.

Zorro

(15,749 posts)
79. Yet you obviously gain great pleasure gleefully participating in these wankfests you criticize
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:14 AM
Nov 2013

Hope your wanker fixation has been sufficiently gratified, itch kitty.

Now perhaps you can comment on the contents of the article.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
151. Well, I think people can disagree without being disagreeable, or calling people petty names.
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 02:54 AM
Nov 2013

Name calling is no substitute for a discussion of the issues.

Psephos

(8,032 posts)
30. But capitalism doesn't fail when socialists get their hands on it?
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:20 PM
Nov 2013

Really? You still think it's about which team is beating up the other?

Stop to consider that it's the team owners, laughing in their beers as they watch the teams pummel each other, who run the show.

They don't care what their label is, they only care if they're in power.

Judi Lynn

(160,630 posts)
44. The pattern for treatment of leftist governments has been repeated endlessly.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:41 AM
Nov 2013

The pattern they're using now worked so well in Chile they didn't even have to revamp it to use it again when the Venezuelan people hacked them off by electing a leftist to office:


The Shadow of Chile Falls on Venezuela
By Francisco Dominguez

Source: The Morning Star
Monday, November 11, 2013

Mayoral elections are to be held in Venezuela on December 8. Every mayoralty will be contested and, as is the case in Venezuela's vibrant democracy, both the right-wing coalition and Chavista candidates are busily campaigning up and down the country.

These municipal elections take place in a very different context to recent elections in Venezuela - they will be the first held since the death of Hugo Chavez. They are also the first following the violent response of the right-wing opposition to the presidential election in April.

Venezuela's anti-democratic opposition used the close election results to try to unseat the elected government of Nicolas Maduro. They alleged fraud but failed to provide any evidence. Nonetheless, their leader Henrique Capriles encouraged opposition supporters to "vent their anger." A wave of violence followed resulting in the death of 13 innocent people as well as the burning of vehicles, attacks on health centres, national electoral council buildings and houses of prominent members of the government.

The opposition also attempted to internationalise its false claim of fraud. Its political leaders travelled around the world linking up with right-wing politicians such as Jovino Novoa, senator for Chile's extreme right Union Democratica Independiente (UDI). The establishment of UDI was encouraged and assisted by Pinochet's dictatorship. Novoa notoriously served as general government undersecretary of the military dictatorship between 1979-1982.

This link with the Chilean right wing makes sense. The opposition in Venezuela is at the moment - just like its counterparts in Chile 40 years ago - waging economic war as a strategy to destabilise and bring down the government of President Maduro.

More:
http://www.zcommunications.org/the-shadow-of-chile-falls-on-venezuela-by-francisco-dominguez.html

Judi Lynn

(160,630 posts)
45. More to consider, same article:
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:42 AM
Nov 2013
They are organising shortages of vital food and other day-to-day essentials, carrying out sabotage attacks against key facilities such as electricity plants, the metro and oil refineries.

All this echoes the strategy of president Nixon in Chile designed to "make the economy scream" to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him."

As in Chile, they have unleashed psychological warfare in the media to sow confusion and despair among the poorest and most vulnerable as well as the middle classes.

The West's mainstream media readily and uncritically lends support to this campaign. In October alone the Washington Post ran an editorial headlined Venezuela, On The Path To Implosion, the Miami Herald right on cue announced Desperation In Venezuela and the FT followed with Chaos In Caracas. Foreign Policy magazine ran a piece called Is The US Ready For A Venezuelan Meltdown?

Just as with the ousting of the democratically elected Salvador Allende in Chile the influence of the US looms large in Venezuela.

Key bodies of the US foreign policy apparatus are very actively intervening in the internal affairs of the country by channelling millions of dollars of taxpayers' money into opposition political, social and media coffers.
 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
51. The USSR failed due to a boycott by the West. This is the playbook for Venezuela...
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:59 AM
Nov 2013

Meanwhile, look at how well Communist China is doing.

I chuckle when some dumbass Republican uses the China model as something we should emulate.

Judi Lynn

(160,630 posts)
52. Economic war with continual propaganda is much easier to accomplish,
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 05:16 AM
Nov 2013

Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2013, 01:16 AM - Edit history (1)

although, of course it isn't as profitable as all-out war for US national politicians and their financiers.

Far more surreptitious, less likely to be detected, destroys the government hated by the U.S.

Right-wingers are friendlier to China because of their cheap labor? That would definitely impress Republicans, wouldn't it?

It's something which benefits our already obscenely wealthy 1%'rs.

EX500rider

(10,866 posts)
134. "The USSR failed due to a boycott by the West. This is the playbook for Venezuela.."
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:21 PM
Nov 2013

Really?

Ven. Exports - partners:
US 39.3%, China 14.4%, India 12%, Netherlands Antilles 7.6%, Cuba 4.5% (2012)

Quite the boycott there..

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
137. It's the IMPORTS that matter....
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:47 PM
Nov 2013

The myth being that Socialism/Communism leads to shortages of common items because there is no incentive to provide them.

After all, the ONLY motive is greed.

EX500rider

(10,866 posts)
138. Yes and they currently import..
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:52 PM
Nov 2013

....$59 billion a year (2012 est.)

The truth, not a myth is that central planning mixed with rigid price controls never works and always produces shortages.

Judi Lynn

(160,630 posts)
42. Same attitude reflected by Richard Nixon's bloody, filthy puppet dictator,
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 03:47 AM
Nov 2013
Pinochet liked to say that no blade of grass moved in Chile without his order.

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,901020701-265371,00.html

After Nixon, with Kissinger's counsel, and the CIA, and the use of the Chilean "news" media got rid of the elected President, Pinochet helped them regrab the power they had over Chile prior to the election results they couldn't accept.

As Kissinger said, "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people."

In time, that view is going to have to go. The Americas do NOT belong to the US Gov't, no matter how many US taxpayers' dollars they hand off to the right-wing governments, militaries, and the opposition groups in the leftist-led countries.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
10. He's really wishing China gave that loan right about now.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:47 AM
Nov 2013

China is sending a message and the next loan will be on terms very very favorable to China. Will it come in time before the elections? We'll see.

Gary 50

(382 posts)
14. This wont end well...
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:07 AM
Nov 2013

Maduro is following in Lenin's footsteps. When will the gulags start welcoming their "guests"? Who would want to be in business if the government can confiscate your property? I see a trajectory of straight down for Venezuela and its people. Can a revolution be far behind?

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
16. ROFL, I wonder if this dude actually believes what he says-
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:01 AM
Nov 2013

"Maduro, in a nationally televised address, charged that opposition agitators had infiltrated the long lines that have formed in several cities and were trying to stir up violence"


LOL

Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
17. Chavismo is all about the cheap LED HD tvs, what more can you ask?
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:05 AM
Nov 2013

Maybe a cheap Galaxy S4?

Get em now because, just like toilet paper, there isn't going to be much in the near future.

bobGandolf

(871 posts)
18. Will it impact us?
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:07 AM
Nov 2013

Wondering how much a destabilized Venezuela will impact us. I know the impact regarding their oil....just wondering if there are any other areas.

 

packman

(16,296 posts)
21. Ah, the old devil Oil
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:33 AM
Nov 2013

the old saying about following the money trail, in Venezuela it's follow the oil trail.

And if you sniff around enough, the stink of CIA with the sheen of American hanky-panky might be mixed in with that oil.

From the History of Venezuela:

Chavez was reelected to a six-year term in July 2000. Troops were called in to quell serious protests over the election in several cities. In 2000 Chavez visited other OPEC countries, becoming the first foreign head of state to visit Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War. He is close to President Fidel Castro of Cuba, which receives Venezuelan oil at reduced prices.

Read more: Venezuela: Maps, History, Geography, Government, Culture, Facts, Guide & Travel/Holidays/Cities | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/country/venezuela.html?pageno=2#ixzz2kRilpdhG

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
32. No impact on the USA whatsoever.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:03 PM
Nov 2013

Venezuela is now a very minor oil player, and the USA nor the market need their oil. But this is just about some looting and unrest around the country. All this does is create traffic jams, ruin a few businessmen (who happen to be associated with chavista government officials). It's more of an intra chavista gang war. But the consequences will be dire because there's going to be very little interest by business to get in bed with Chavistas if they have these mafia wars using looters. They need to handle this privately and just have their shootouts in a warehouse or whatever.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
36. We "buy" their oil to refine it and send it on, to a very great extent.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 06:09 PM
Nov 2013

We also "import" and then refine and return it to VZ as gasoline. Their oil is heavy and sour. The Chinese can refine it in some of their refineries, but that's a long way to ship crap before it can be turned into treasure.

Oil prices are coming down, too--the gouging bastards aren't passing all of the savings on to their customers, but they are. Also, there are more options these days for the winter heating season, "thanks" to fracking and other extraction methods for natural gas.

Any time there is a disruption in any energy sector, it most certainly "matters," but it might not matter as much as it once did--VZ's production is WAY down from years past, mainly because they haven't been maintaining their equipment and can't get as much of the crap outta the ground, and they've also had a number of industrial accidents due to lack of maintenance as well.

They are doing more business with China, and China doesn't play--they can't stiff-arm those guys, nationalize their stuff, not pay what they owe, and get away with it. They need to get correct and fix the problems with this sector, it's not like they can diversify and do other things--their country has one big source of income, and that's oil. They're so unstable and violent they can't even count on tourism--who wants to get robbed on holiday, after all?

spanza

(507 posts)
81. Not exactly. Citgo sells in the US.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:20 AM
Nov 2013

Last year, Venezuela's main refinery caught fire which led to the country needing to import a little gas from the US. Otherwise Venezuela is completely auto-sufficient and (still) exports quite a lot of refined products, even if the sector has been badly stagnating for the last 13 years. Venezuela has many types of oil ranging from medium to extra-heavy (never as heavy as Canadian tar sands from Alberta, though).

spanza

(507 posts)
89. Bacchus, Venezuela has around 3/5 of the refining capacity for the whole country's consumption
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:09 PM
Nov 2013

only in Amuay which evolves around 450,000 bpd in recent years. But there are other refineries. In total, Venezuela has around 2 times the refining capacity for its total consumption. Something like 1,5 million bpd.

After the explosion, the country needed to import gas for around 9 months. It was conjunctural and this situation came to an end last july I believe. Last time I checked, Venezuela wasn't importing anymore.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
85. Another basic economic lesson they have failed
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:34 AM
Nov 2013

when you subsidize gasoline such that the price is much less than the cost to produce it, two things happen.

1. You lose a shit ton of money.

2. Demand spikes to the point where it cannot be met by domestic producers.

spanza

(507 posts)
90. 3. People drive 30 year-old cars which use 1 liter/ 3km, pollution and traffic jams multiply
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:15 PM
Nov 2013

Price of gas should be progressively increased for private cars and subsidies kept for public transportation.
Did you know a rise of 35% in gas prices is what led to the Caracazo in 1989?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
149. I'm not saying they don't have the reserves, but they do have a problem getting to them.
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 02:49 AM
Nov 2013

See here:


Experts said that Venezuela has shifted from exporter to importer of gasoline under the Hugo Chávez administration, which is forced to import fuel and components to process it from the United States, not only for internal consumption but to allow the state enterprise Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A. (PDVSA) to fulfill contractual commitments.

The experts fear that the government will choose to ration the fuel because of its inability to contain the contraband and increase production....The deficit in the system is caused by a combination of factors ranging from an abrupt plunge in production, an increase in the number of vehicles and the flight of thousands of barrels of the extremely cheap Venezuelan gasoline to Colombia, Brazil and Guyana.

“It’s a perfect combination,” said Horacio Medina, former manager of PDVSA. “As long as these factors are in play, it will be very difficult to solve this problem.”

The fact that Venezuela is lacking refinery capacity is a paradox for a country that boasts of having the largest reserves of crude oil on the planet, estimated at 316,000 millions of barrels, and that only 10 years ago exported gasoline to other countries, including the United States.

Today, it’s the United States that sells large volumes of crude oil to Venezuela.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/23/2965352_venezuela-imports-oil-despite.html#storylink=cpy

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/11/us-oil-venezuela-refinery-idUSBRE9AA0V620131111


According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, Venezuela increased again its fuel imports from the United States to 96,000 bpd in August, compared with 64,000 bpd in July.



They have some real PROBLEMS. They aren't getting better by not talking about them, which seems to be Maduro's technique for dealing with the issues. Pretty soon he's going to have to pay the piper.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
152. I don't understand, with all that oil, they'd have an unemployment, poverty, crime, etc. problem.
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 02:59 AM
Nov 2013

Who's bleeding Venezuela's economy dry?

And where is the money going?

I thought they'd severed relations with almost everyone.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
154. They can't get to the oil because they haven't maintained the wells and fields.
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 03:20 AM
Nov 2013

Their oil requires a lot of handling--it's funky stuff and USA has refineries that can process it efficiently (and we do--and we also send it back to them as motor oil, gasoline, etc.).

They also have people in the government who skim, steal and divert the product. Then there are "businessmen" -- private citizens who are friends of the regime who are doing the same thing; selling the stuff to smugglers in Colombia, Brasil, etc.

It's a corrupt shithole. Everyone is out for themselves. They should have used the oil to lift themselves up as a nation; instead, the "Boligarchs" use the oil to enrich themselves personally, and they trade it to Cuba in exchange for doctors and some governmental management assistance (which isn't too good, if you ask me...).

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
171. Thanks so much for answering that, best yet on the thread. Sans ideology, great answer.
Fri Nov 15, 2013, 04:37 PM
Nov 2013

Revolutions often end up with conservative outcomes, no matter what the intent.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
22. What I don't understand is why Venezuela excites such scorn and derision.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:49 PM
Nov 2013

It's almost like overcompensation or something.

Or real fear that socialism could be a viable alternative to corporate capitalism.

Unlike all the Nobel prize-winning economists posting on this thread, I'm not sure of the root causes of Venezuela's problems are. I wish them the best and hope they really can create a better society.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
24. What I don't understand is the fanatical
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:56 PM
Nov 2013

defending of the Venezuelan govt. by some here, despite the obvious massive mismanagement and widespread corruption of the Ven. govt.
And the blaming the U.S. for all their ills.

I too wish the people of Ven. the best and hope they can create a better society, but it's pretty obvious at this point that the Chavez/Maduro economic model is a complete failure and, unless drastic measures are taken soon, the economy is going to collapse, which will impact the poor the most.

And just to clarify, the derision is not directed at the average citizen of Ven., it's directed at the Ven. govt. and their toadies and apologists.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
37. Venezuelan people are great--it's Maduro that is a thief and the head crony.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 06:10 PM
Nov 2013

The entire government is corrupt, and the fish rots from the head.

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
60. I agree - they're wonderful.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:13 AM
Nov 2013

Smart and engaged in their elections. Why can't you let them pick their own leader? Why do you feel YOU know what's best for them?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
63. They haven't been allowed to pick their own leader, and you know that.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:20 AM
Nov 2013

Everything Maduro knows about counting votes he learned from Joe Stalin. And since he's decided he wants to rule by decree, we can say that "democracy"--on life support for many years--is truly dead in VZ.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/11/13/uk-venezuela-politics-idUKBRE9AC03720131113

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
104. How does Venezuela compare with, say, Mexico or Honduras or Colombia?
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:53 PM
Nov 2013

And if they are not much better, why so much focus on Venezuela?

I think it's lingering anti-communism. The Scoop Jackson wing of the Democratic Party lives.

Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
114. in terms of what? Those countries do not lack toilet paper
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 05:39 PM
Nov 2013

don't have an overvalued currency, inflation rate of 50%, police checking prices at appliance stores, or a president seeking rule by decree.

Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
117. thats correct, over the past few years we hear of the horrible violence in Mexico
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:04 PM
Nov 2013

on the news and such but its like half that of what occurs in Venezuela.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
167. Mexican grocery stores are well stocked with staples like flour and chickens, too,
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 06:31 PM
Nov 2013

along with that toilet paper.

And yeah, I haven't seen the Mexican leadership trumping up charges against opposition leaders in order to fake a majority so that they can rule by decree.

VZ is so fucked up. It's just pathetic. What's more pathetic is that there are people here on DU who just refuse to see the obvious, because they just can't bear the thought that "Con Maduro, the nation is screwed-o!"

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
168. You can't really blame them for attempting to place the blame for the state of the economy
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 09:31 PM
Nov 2013

on the U.S., to do that would mean that they have to admit that the Chavistas (Chavez/Maduro) and the Merry band of thugs are failures and that their brand of socialism has also failed.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
169. IF USA really wanted to screw with them, they could do it.
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 09:45 PM
Nov 2013

Simply cease to trade with them. Put sanctions on them--they'd fold like a house of cards.

USA doesn't do that, though. In fact, beyond saying "Man, that dude Maduro is f--ed up," and making sure that they pay their bills that they incur with us (easy to do, because they send their oil to us for refining), we leave them to their own messes.

There are a few ardent Capriles fans, mostly in FL, but they aren't Americans--they are Venezuelans who ran like hell when VZ started getting crazy. There are a lot of VZers in Puerto Rico, too, and they aren't rich--they're barely getting by, but they'd rather endure in the relative safety of PR than risk life and limb in VZ.

I think if Bozo the Clown got elected in VZ, USA wouldn't give a shit, so long as Bozo paid his bills, didn't abuse his people, and didn't try to blame others for his own sins.

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
31. It's not Venezuela, it's Maduro
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:55 PM
Nov 2013

Venezuela is a poor suffering country. Maduro is a clown. Scorn is directed at Maduro and not at Venezuela. Nobody is afraid because Maduro isn't a socialist. He thinks he is a communist but in practice he's more like a mental asylum case. If you are not aware of what's going on, I suggest you start learning. It's a fascinating case of a country being destroyed by an incredibly corrupt government led by a nutcase.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
74. Yep, and you gets what you pays for,
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 10:45 AM
Nov 2013

which in this case is a failing economy, 50%+ inflation with no end in sight, a failing electrical grid, basic commodities shortages, the highest crime rate in Latin America, massive mismanagement of the economy by the former Chavez govt, now the Maduro govt, which is the same govt, and widespread corruption within that govt.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
88. Because he promised the poor everything at the expense of the better off.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:48 AM
Nov 2013

And you can blame the woes of Ven. on the U.S. all you like, but every respected economist has stated that the Venezuelan economy is coming apart at the seams because of the massive mismanagement of the govt and the widespread corruption within that govt.

But I guess it's ok with some members here to blame the U.S. for the Ven. govt. failures, to admit that the Chavez, now Maduro, govt totally screwed the economy would be to admit that they were failures, and we can't have that now, can we.

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
107. So it was only the poor who voted for Chavez.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:44 PM
Nov 2013

Four times...

Venezuelans seem to prefer leftist leaders. It's kind of elitist to think that you know better than them.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
109. Yep they seem to prefer leftist leaders,
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:49 PM
Nov 2013

and now look at their economy.
And you can blame their woes on the U.S. all you want, but that's just a diversion meant to distract attention from the horrible economic situation created by this leftist govt.

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
110. But that's their economy, not ours.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:54 PM
Nov 2013

I don't see Venezuela with their nose up our ass, trying to tell us how to run our country.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
111. And I don't see our govt telling them how to run their economy either,
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:58 PM
Nov 2013

Last edited Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:29 PM - Edit history (1)

if they want to run their economy into ruin, and the Chavezistas are well on their way, that's their business, but the one's who'll suffer the worse are the poor, you know, the ones the Chavezistas claim they speak for.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
115. We don't need to interfere in Ven. domestic affairs,
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 05:42 PM
Nov 2013

Maduro and his merry band of thugs are doing the job of destroying the economy quite nicely.
You want to blame the U.S. because you just can't stand the thought that maybe, just maybe, the economic model that the Chavez, now Maduro, govt. is a complete failure and the U.S. meme is a convenient way to distract from what's really going on.

And I have read lots on what's happening in Ven. I spent time in the country back in the 70's with the Navy Seabees helping the people with rebuilding their infrastructure, the ordinary people of Ven. are some of the greatest people I've ever met, warm, friendly, giving, I made a number of friends there that I still communicate with from time to time and they give me the low down on what is actually happening, not the govt. version.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,241 posts)
118. Take off the blinders, bitchkitty. This has been predicted for years, and claims that this is a US
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:21 PM
Nov 2013

sponsored debacle, which is the height of diversion tactics, are losing their effectiveness.

An Economic Crisis of Historic Proportions
by Moisés Naím

"The crisis includes a fiscal deficit approaching 20 percent of the economy (in the cliff-panicking United States it is 7 percent), a black market where a U.S. dollar costs four times more than the government-determined exchange rate, one of the world's highest inflation rates, a swollen number of public sector jobs, debt 10 times larger than it was in 2003, a fragile banking system and the free fall of the state-controlled oil industry, the country's main source of revenue.

Oil-exporting countries rarely face hard currency shortages, but the Chávez regime may be the exception. Mismanagement and lack of investment have decreased oil production. Meanwhile oil revenue is compromised partly because of Chávez’s decision to supply Venezuelans with the country's most valuable resource at heavily subsidized prices. Thus a large and growing share of locally produced oil is sold domestically at the lowest prices in the world (in Venezuela it costs 25 cents to fill the tank of a mid-sized car).

Another share of the oil output is shipped abroad to Cuba and other Chávez allies, and to China, which bought oil in advance at deeply discounted prices (apparently the revenue from China has already been spent). Most of the crude left to be exported at market prices is sold to Venezuela's best client, and, ironically, Chávez's main foe: the United States. Yet, as a result of America's own oil boom, U.S. imports of Venezuelan oil have recently hit a 30-year low.

Moreover, due to an explosion in its main refinery, Venezuela is now forced to import gasoline. The Financial Times reckons that for each 10 barrels of crude it sells to the US, it has to import back (at a higher price) two barrels of oil refined abroad. Meanwhile, the nation's total imports have jumped from $13 billion in 2003 to over $50 billion currently. Paying for those imports and servicing its huge debt requires more hard currency than Venezuela's weakened economy can generate."

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/01/03/venezuela-post-chavez/chavez-will-leave-behind-an-economic-crisis
 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
119. This person and a few others are desperately trying to defend
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:41 PM
Nov 2013

a failed,corrupt regime who has completely ruined the economy by claiming that U.S. interference in Ven. domestic affairs is responsible for the coming collapse of the economy and all the chaos that will follow it.

If it weren't so pathetic, it would be funny.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,241 posts)
122. It is pretty pathetic, at this point. Chavez was just a much better salesman than Maduro. The.....
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 07:22 PM
Nov 2013

truth is beginning to take shape, finally.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
120. So the US influenced VZ domestic policy making
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:42 PM
Nov 2013

Somehow tricking them into making horrible economic policy choices?

Judi Lynn

(160,630 posts)
125. Didn't bother to learn anything about what the U.S. did to Chile
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 07:33 PM
Nov 2013

after Richard M. Nixon told Richard Helms, his CIA chief, he wanted him to "make the economy scream?"

When you feel well enough to do more than join the idiots' choir trying to kill Maduro
through ignorant insults you owe it to yourself to discover how things go in a country which the US has decided to destroy from inside.

If you took the time to learn what already has happened, you'd discover they are simply doing the very same thing all over again in Venzuela. Only an idiot or a liar wouldn't acknowledge it.

Do your homework, just the way Democrats do when they expect to know the truth.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
129. So America tricked VZ into implementing disasterous domestic policies?
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 07:40 PM
Nov 2013

Because as far as I can see their biggest problem, the shortage of dollars, is purely self inflicted.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
131. Wow, you dredge up something that happened in the 70's, in Chile, not even Ven., as proof
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 07:52 PM
Nov 2013

that the U.S. is responsible for the economic mess in Ven.

Your comment smacks of desperation because you can't defend what Maduro and his Merry band of thugs have so screwed the economy that nothing short of drastic measures will save it, and even then, it's a crap shoot on whether or not that would help.

But I understand your angst, it's hard for you and a few others to admit that your favorite leftist leader is a failure.



Judi Lynn

(160,630 posts)
140. You hope to claim the U.S. wouldn't do anything it has already done?
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 01:27 AM
Nov 2013

That doesn't make sense.

It would benefit you to humble yourself and do some actual reading and searching for real information.

All the screwing around attempting to mock Democrats at a Democratic message board doesn't carry the weight you seem to hope it does. In so many cases Democrats ARE leftists. Why would you not know that?

You fall for the bogus information, you drag it here, throw it around among those of your cluster, and treat it as the truth. It's a poor substitute.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
159. Bogus information?
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 11:00 AM
Nov 2013

So your saying that Ven. isn't experiencing 50%+ inflation? Or declining oil production, failing electrical grid, rampant govt. mismanagement and massive corruption, highest crime rate in Latin America, basic commodities shortages, etc?
And your also saying that the U.S. is responsible for this?
Your really flailing here, you and your cohorts just can't stand the fact that the grand experiment of the Chavez/Maduro govt is a massive failure, so, you have to throw that tired meme of it must be the U.S. that's behind all this because, heaven forbid, we can't admit what the real problem is.

And, btw, I'm mocking those that refuse to pull their head out of the sand and see the real problem instead of blaming everyone else for the complete and utter failure of the Chavezistas.

I know a hell of alot more of Ven. problems than you think I do, I just don't walk in lockstep with the corrupt Ven. govt like you and others here.

EX500rider

(10,866 posts)
165. "You hope to claim the U.S. wouldn't do anything it has already done?"
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 04:07 PM
Nov 2013

So can we claim that for other countries too? How about Germany? Cambodia? France? UK?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
166. You have to go back to Dead Dick Nixon to try to "prove" your point?
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 04:19 PM
Nov 2013

And you've gotta use a country that isn't Venezuela as your example?

What happened in the middle of the last century in another country has nothing to do with the problems Venezuela is experiencing owing to corrupt mismanagement and meglomaniacal leadership.

If anyone should be hitting the books, it's you. Next thing we know, you'll be comparing Kenya to Zimbabwe, because, ya know, they're both in Africa....

hack89

(39,171 posts)
68. The irony it's that VZ depends on capitalism to feed its people
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:13 AM
Nov 2013

Which they are learning the hard way as they bungle basic things like foreign currency reserves and as they scare off desperately needed foreign investment.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
94. Agreed.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:21 PM
Nov 2013

Maduro and his merry band of thugs are sticking it to the economy and the results, unless drastic measures are taken soon, will be a collapsed economy which will affect the poor the hardest, you know, those that the Maduro clan claim they're trying to help.

penultimate

(1,110 posts)
162. He really don't seem to have much of a clue
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 02:15 PM
Nov 2013

I bet Mr. Chavez would not pleased if he saw how things are going down.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
163. Same conditions existed before his death,
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 02:30 PM
Nov 2013

the country was experiencing the same conditions when he was in charge also.
This didn't just happen when Maduro took over, this is the results of years of govt. mismanagement of the economy and widespread corruption within the Ven. govt.

spanza

(507 posts)
83. Although that may be the content of the debate in your country, it has little to do
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:28 AM
Nov 2013

with what is discussed in Venezuela.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
95. I visited your country in the 70's with the U.S. Navy,
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:24 PM
Nov 2013

I remember the warmth and generosity of the Ven. people, I truly hope the best for you and the people of Ven. during these difficult economic times.

spanza

(507 posts)
98. Thanks a lot Ranchemp
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:43 PM
Nov 2013

I just read your other post too, it must have been a very interesting experience. Tourists could hardly imagine.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
99. It was very enlightening,
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:46 PM
Nov 2013

we went where tourists don't go and the people were just fantastic, they welcomed us with open arms.
I think the biggest thing for them was the fact we didn't come in with armaments, we came in as builders.

spanza

(507 posts)
82. It depends from what perspective
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:24 AM
Nov 2013

From the right-wing is the usual amalgamation. But from the left, there's a lot of disappointment, which is what hard-line chavista fail to see. Criticism and rectification are not allowed in this process nowadays, the only value is loyalty. Thanks for your good wishes though.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
155. It's because they've been "given" so much.
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 04:00 AM
Nov 2013

And I don't mean by the US or any other governmental entities, they've been given a great hand in the game of life courtesy of Mother Nature.

They aren't a drought-baked shithole with no natural resources, they are a beautiful nation, laden with natural beauty, a national gift of oil out their asses, a population of intelligent people who are capable of so much more than they are doing, and they aren't doing shit-all with it. Why? It's all because a bunch of "boligarchs" are robbing them blind, skimming off the top, engaging in croney-criminal enterprises, and selling the people--kept in poverty and thrown bones like cell phones and a little urgent medical care by an indentured Cuban doctor--a story about evil boogey-men who are to blame for all their problems, when that's bullshit.

The leadership is to blame, they are corrupt, stupid, short-sighted and shameless.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
70. I think the VZ leaders have been tryng to do the right thing by the people
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 10:32 AM
Nov 2013

But I think alot of it was hastily done without really thinking things all the way through. without having a solid plan in place for some of it.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
76. Back in the early 70's,
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 10:52 AM
Nov 2013

my Seabee battalion was sent to Venezuela to help build roads, improve the infrastructure, the Venezuelan citizens we met and worked with were just wonderful to us, they would bring us home cooked food, yummmm, invite us into their homes, just warm and giving people.
I'll never forget the friends I made there, that's why it pains me to see how badly the present govt has so screwed the country, although, the govt back then wasn't exactly very friendly to the average citizen.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
160. It was great, beautiful country, great people.
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 11:07 AM
Nov 2013

Your dad was one of the original Seabees? The Seabees were formed in WWII due to the lack of Naval construction personnel, the first Seabees were drawn from citizens who were already in the construction trade, usually they were older than your average inductee or volunteer.

Response to Ranchemp. (Reply #160)

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
172. I'm sorry to hear about your dad's passing when you were 13.
Fri Nov 15, 2013, 05:09 PM
Nov 2013

He was what we call a plank owner, which refers to the first crew on a newly commissioned ship.

He was a pioneer in Naval construction.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
173. TY. Your reply had me stumped. He never mentioned the term 'plank owners.'
Fri Nov 15, 2013, 08:36 PM
Nov 2013

Guess it's part of the wbat those who came after him learned. I googled and found a lot I never knew.

I thought the Seabees were retired with WW2. I was wrong:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seabee_%28US_Navy%29

I did know engineers and geologists who worked in Venezuela in the fifties. All their work is gone, I guess, and for the best in the eyes of the natives.

Those people were in love with everything about Venezuela, but I had no idea of political reality of those days.

I see from the Wiki page where your work came in and am amazed at the world wide use of Seabees.

sheshe2

(83,925 posts)
175. Your dad sounds like an amazing man.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:15 AM
Nov 2013

I am so sorry that you lost him at such a young age.

He took to war to save his brothers from leaving their families. He returned to build his sisters modest homes. Beautiful freshwest.

You had a dear sweet father, he gave you books. You were blessed.

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