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bananas

(27,509 posts)
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:51 PM Nov 2013

AP SOURCE: NO RIGHT TO ENRICH IN IRAN DEAL

Source: Associated Press

A senior Obama administration official says the nuclear deal with Iran does not include recognition of Iran's right to enrich uranium.

That had been a sticking point in the negotiations between Iran and six world powers, including the United States.

The official says the deal includes an agreement that Iran will halt progress on its nuclear program, including a plutonium reactor at the Arak facility. The deal also calls on Iran to neutralize its 20 percent enriched uranium stockpiles.

Tehran has also agreed to intrusive inspections under the terms of the deal.

The official was not authorized to discuss the terms of the agreement by name and insisted on anonymity.

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_IRAN_NUCLEAR_DEAL_DETAILS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

69 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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AP SOURCE: NO RIGHT TO ENRICH IN IRAN DEAL (Original Post) bananas Nov 2013 OP
This is probably the greatest foreign policy achievement of recent times... shaayecanaan Nov 2013 #1
Israel and Saudi Arabia do not agree, it appears. Laelth Nov 2013 #28
That was then, this is now Brother Buzz Nov 2013 #42
Well advised. n/t Laelth Nov 2013 #43
Voilą Brother Buzz Nov 2013 #60
Thank you for that post. n/t Laelth Nov 2013 #61
Again, the european whites won by brute force cosmicone Nov 2013 #2
There's no right to enrich in the NPT, to any level. nt bananas Nov 2013 #4
WRONG. Iran has the right to enrich up to certain levels, just not to develop a nuclear weapon on point Nov 2013 #18
WRONG. The NPT doesn't mention certain levels of enrichment, it doesn't mention enrichment at all. bananas Nov 2013 #20
If it doesn't mention enrichment at all dipsydoodle Nov 2013 #29
IAEA has never found Iran in violation of the NPT Ash_F Nov 2013 #45
IAEA: "Iran's failures and breaches constitute non-compliance"; UNSC resolutions are legally binding bananas Nov 2013 #48
Nowhere in there is a finding of violation. Ash_F Nov 2013 #53
They were in violation for almost 20 years before they were caught. bananas Nov 2013 #55
That is not a violation of the NPT. Ash_F Nov 2013 #57
No right under NPT. Sand Wind Nov 2013 #5
There's no explicit right to an abortion under the US constitution either... shaayecanaan Nov 2013 #12
The NPT requires intrusive inspections and monitoring. bananas Nov 2013 #22
That is complete rubbish shaayecanaan Nov 2013 #25
Incorrect and correct. The relevent section is vague, hence debate on interpretation. DRoseDARs Nov 2013 #6
And I'll give you "best response" award for the day! nt 7962 Nov 2013 #9
Oh for petes sake take that load somewhere else or add the sarcasm thingy. 7962 Nov 2013 #8
Who was irrational here, exactly? Scootaloo Nov 2013 #11
Iran was irrational. bananas Nov 2013 #21
I think that's not the word you're looking for. Scootaloo Nov 2013 #41
But not higher than what is needed for medical uses, by my understanding Ash_F Nov 2013 #13
No need to build medical facilities 200 hundred feet under a mountain 7962 Nov 2013 #30
Uranium enrichment facilities are not medical facilities Ash_F Nov 2013 #44
Again, no reason to build it 200 ft underground if its PRODUCT is only for medical use 7962 Nov 2013 #47
It is only the right wing spreading the the lie that it can only be used for weapons. Ash_F Nov 2013 #54
The Iranians themselves never mentioned medical use at the start 7962 Nov 2013 #59
A 850k patient afterthought? Ash_F Nov 2013 #62
You want to trust the Iranians, fine. Go ahead. Whats the risk? 7962 Nov 2013 #63
When you start off with a lie it makes it hard for people to listen to the rest of your arguement Ash_F Nov 2013 #64
I did not LIE. When the subject of medical use was brought up, I answered that factually. 7962 Nov 2013 #65
Let's look at post #8 again. Ash_F Nov 2013 #66
Wrong. Because in the beginning, they said it was for peaceful use; for power generation. 7962 Nov 2013 #67
Sounds like you did not read the article Ash_F Nov 2013 #68
And once again, you dont build medical facilities 200 ft underground 7962 Nov 2013 #69
You and Bibi can throw a pity party together. Waaaaah. nt geek tragedy Nov 2013 #19
Bring some beer n/t cosmicone Nov 2013 #34
yup. delrem Nov 2013 #24
Kerry just got a question about Israel's response and about the response form the US Congress. davidpdx Nov 2013 #3
Couldn't resist is likely the case karynnj Nov 2013 #7
That is a long day davidpdx Nov 2013 #14
Oh shit Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Nov 2013 #10
I can see it now....... davidpdx Nov 2013 #15
Kick. (nt) pinto Nov 2013 #16
CNN - 6 month deal, can enrich for non-weapon purposes... jtuck004 Nov 2013 #17
"The first step, let me be clear, does not say that Iran has a right to enrich uranium," Kerry said bananas Nov 2013 #23
but it allows them to keep enriching uranium (nt) shaayecanaan Nov 2013 #26
I suspect Iran might just tell them to fuck off. They reportedly have 19000 centrifuges, jtuck004 Nov 2013 #37
Nope, Iran agreed to cut back it's enrichment program. nt bananas Nov 2013 #49
Cut it back could mean no longer working on weapons-grade enrichment, not stopping. n/t jtuck004 Nov 2013 #50
enrich to 5% max, and get rid of their 20% stockpile bananas Nov 2013 #51
And it doesn't sound like the WH is all that sure of it either... jtuck004 Nov 2013 #52
Two points. Laelth Nov 2013 #27
Not quite shaayecanaan Nov 2013 #31
Yes, Israel and SA are dependent upon us. Laelth Nov 2013 #32
As the link in #17 says, noted in #23, Kerry has said this publicly too muriel_volestrangler Nov 2013 #33
If Secretary Kerry said that, and it appears he did ... Laelth Nov 2013 #36
If Saudis align themselves with Israel cosmicone Nov 2013 #35
Saudi Arabia is already in trouble. Laelth Nov 2013 #38
Destruction of the Saudi Monarchy cosmicone Nov 2013 #39
Perhaps. Laelth Nov 2013 #40
If SA fell into civil war NickB79 Nov 2013 #46
In my mind this sticking point epitomizes how utterly stupid these negotiations are. crim son Nov 2013 #56
Lavrov: Win-win Iran deal only became possible after Rouhani came to power dipsydoodle Nov 2013 #58

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
1. This is probably the greatest foreign policy achievement of recent times...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:02 AM
Nov 2013

very good news for Iran and the world.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
28. Israel and Saudi Arabia do not agree, it appears.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 09:42 AM
Nov 2013

Last edited Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Recent statements made by the Saudi leadership are posing a real challenge to the United States and provoking speculation about near-future developments and whether a "divorce" is possible between this pair of strategic allies.

Prince Bandar bin Sultan, Saudi secretary-general for national security and chief of intelligence, strongly criticized U.S. foreign policy recently and said that the kingdom "will make a major shift in foreign policy." The statement suggests that the monarchy is distancing itself from its principal strategic ally. It also appears to confirm Riyadh’s intent to form an alliance with Israel against the Islamic Republic of Iran. Saudi Arabia currently has no diplomatic relations with Israel, maintaining only discreet contact in an effort to foster stability in the region.

http://watchingamerica.com/News/226591/is-saudi-arabia-heading-for-a-shift-in-foreign-policy/


For what that's worth.

-Laelth

Brother Buzz

(36,422 posts)
42. That was then, this is now
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:03 PM
Nov 2013

It might be prudent to wait for a new statement that better reflects this significant event.

Brother Buzz

(36,422 posts)
60. Voilą
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:06 PM
Nov 2013
Saudi Arabia Cautiously Welcomes Iran Nuclear Deal

VOA News

November 25, 2013


Saudi Arabia has joined other Gulf Arab states in cautiously welcoming a nuclear deal reached by their regional rival Iran and a group of world powers.

In a statement issued Monday, the Saudi government said the agreement "could be" a first step toward a comprehensive solution to the Iranian nuclear dispute, "provided there is goodwill."

Under the deal signed in Geneva on Sunday, Iran agreed to limit or freeze parts of its nuclear program for six months in return for the six world powers easing some sanctions on the Iranian economy.

Monday's Saudi statement said the Geneva agreement should be followed by a comprehensive solution that "leads to the removal of weapons of mass destruction, especially nuclear, from the Middle East." Riyadh also called for unspecified further steps to "guarantee a right of all states in the region to use nuclear power peacefully."

Four other Gulf states also issued statements expressing hope that the Iran nuclear deal will safeguard regional peace and stability. Those nations include Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.

<more>

http://www.voanews.com/content/saudi-arabia-cautiously-welcomes-irans-nuclear-deal/1797132.html

Meanwhile Israel (read Netanyahu) is playing the contraire card, but that's another story.





 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
2. Again, the european whites won by brute force
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:19 AM
Nov 2013

Under NPT, Iran does have a right to enrich uranium to reactor fuel levels and all the signatories of the NPT are treaty bound to allow peaceful use. Iran never said they were developing a nuclear weapon.

This is colonialism and imperialism all over again with Britain, France and the US dictating how the world should operate.

on point

(2,506 posts)
18. WRONG. Iran has the right to enrich up to certain levels, just not to develop a nuclear weapon
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 05:21 AM
Nov 2013

At the same time the nuclear powers (eg US, Russia, Britain, France) were to reduce to zero their stockpiles of weapons.

So Iran is giving something up they are legally entitled to, while the nuclear powers have barely budged on their obligations under NPT, and Israel - not a signatory to NPT and therefore not bound legally, but absolutely in massive violation of the treaty if they had signed.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
20. WRONG. The NPT doesn't mention certain levels of enrichment, it doesn't mention enrichment at all.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 06:17 AM
Nov 2013

What it says is that members will comply with the IAEA and UNSC.

Which Iran hasn't been doing.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
48. IAEA: "Iran's failures and breaches constitute non-compliance"; UNSC resolutions are legally binding
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 09:32 PM
Nov 2013
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/focus/iaeairan/iran_timeline2.shtml

SEPTEMBER 2005

24, Saturday: IAEA Board Adopts Resolution on Iran. At the end of week-long meetings beginning 19 September, the IAEA Board of Governors adopted a resolution on the implementation of safeguards in the Islamic Republic of Iran. The resolution finds that Iran´s failures and breaches constitute non-compliance and calls on Iran to return to the negotiating process. Adopted Resolution [pdf] | IAEA Board Report, 2 September 2005 pdf | Transcript: Press Briefing


"in practical terms non-compliance with a safeguards agreement constitutes non-compliance with the NPT"
- John Carlson, Australian Safeguards and Non-Proliferation Office

http://www.asno.dfat.gov.au/publications/2005_santa_fe_policy.pdf

SAFEGUARDS IN A BROADER POLICY PERSPECTIVE:VERIFYING TREATY COMPLIANCE
John Carlson, Australian Safeguards and Non-Proliferation Office

<snip>

It is a serious concern that Iran carried out a broad range of undeclared activities for almost 20 years undetected.

<snip>

The Iran case illustrates a further issue - that the NPT itself has no mechanism for determining compliance. This responsibility is left to the IAEA. Formally IAEA Board of Governors (BOG) decisions concern compliance with safeguards agreements, rather than the NPT as such, but in practical terms non-compliance with a safeguards agreement constitutes non-compliance with the NPT.


Five months later, Iran was still not complying, so it was sent to the UNSC:
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/focus/iaeairan/iran_timeline3.shtml

FEBRUARY 2006

4, Saturday: IAEA Board Adopts Resolution on Nuclear Safeguards in Iran. The IAEA Board of Governors passed a resolution requesting the IAEA Director General to report to the UN Security Council all IAEA reports and resolutions, as adopted, relating to the implementation of safeguards in Iran. Resolution [pdf] | Photo Gallery: IAEA Board


The UNSC ordered Iran to stop it's enrichment program, these orders are legally binding:
http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Security-Council-Resolutions-on-Iran

UN Security Council Resolutions on Iran
August 2012

The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) has adopted six resolutions as part of international efforts to address Iran’s nuclear program. The central demand by the council is that Iran suspend its uranium enrichment program, as well as undertake several confidence-building measures outlined in a February 2006 International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Board of Governors resolution - including reconsidering the construction of its heavy-water reactor and ratifying the IAEA Additional Protocol. The council initially laid out these calls in a nonbinding Security Council presidential statement adopted in March 2006. (See ACT, April 2006.)

Almost all the resolutions were adopted under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, making most of the provisions of the resolutions legally binding on Iran, or all UN member states. Four of them include a series of progressively expansive sanctions on Iran and or Iranian persons and entities. The sanctions represent one track in a “dual-track approach” pursued by the permanent five members of the council and Germany (the so-called P5+1), to address Iran’s nuclear program. The other track involves a June 2006 proposal for comprehensive negotiations with Iran which was updated in June 2008. (See History of Proposals on the Iranian Nuclear Issue.)

<snip>


bananas

(27,509 posts)
55. They were in violation for almost 20 years before they were caught.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 02:08 AM
Nov 2013
26 November 2003: Following a report of 10 November, the IAEA Board of Governors adopts a resolution condemning Iran´s pursuit of clandestine nuclear activities in violation of its IAEA safeguards agreement (GOV/2003/81).

http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Factsheets/English/npt_chrono.html


Unlike the CWC and the CTBT, the NPT does not have a built-in mechanism for non-compliance. In case of non-compliance with IAEA safeguards, the IAEA Board is to call upon the violator to remedy such non-compliance and should report the non-compliance to the UN Security Council and General Assembly. The UN bodies may impose specific penalties, such as curtailment or suspension of assistance, return of materials, or suspension of privileges and rights. An incentive to comply is peaceful nuclear assistance.

http://www.nti.org/treaties-and-regimes/treaty-on-the-non-proliferation-of-nuclear-weapons/


The Iran case illustrates a further issue - that the NPT itself has no mechanism for determining compliance. This responsibility is left to the IAEA. Formally IAEA Board of Governors (BOG) decisions concern compliance with safeguards agreements, rather than the NPT as such, but in practical terms non-compliance with a safeguards agreement constitutes non-compliance with the NPT.

http://www.asno.dfat.gov.au/publications/2005_santa_fe_policy.pdf


Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
57. That is not a violation of the NPT.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 05:52 AM
Nov 2013

The point remains: The IAEA has not found Iran in violation of the NPT. They are the body responsible for doing so. Not Fox News pundits.

That is why even Obama has not used that language, but the right wing noise machine sure loves too.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
12. There's no explicit right to an abortion under the US constitution either...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 02:25 AM
Nov 2013

However, the right to privacy is considered to encompass the right to make medical decisions affecting ones person, including a termination of pregnancy.

The NPT affords all nations the right to use nuclear technology for peaceful purposes, for generating energy which mostly requires lightly enriched uranium. Accordingly, up until about a year ago just about everyone agreed that enrichment was a right afforded by the NPT, along with ore extraction, reactors, cooling and disposal, ie the whole nuclear cycle.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
22. The NPT requires intrusive inspections and monitoring.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 06:53 AM
Nov 2013

You can't compare it to a right to privacy situation at all.

The NPT is more like a technology license, members get technological assistance in exchange for the intrusive monitoring required to ensure that it's being used for peaceful purposes.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
25. That is complete rubbish
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 09:02 AM
Nov 2013
1. Nothing in this Treaty shall be interpreted as affecting the inalienable right of all the Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination and in conformity with Articles I and II of this Treaty.


http://www.un.org/en/conf/npt/2005/npttreaty.html

The NPT requires intrusive inspections and monitoring.


Hardly. Inspection regimes vary according to the safeguards agreement that the IAEA enters into with each state with a nuclear power industry. However, for the most part the IAEA confines itself to checking the numerical flow of material (basically the reports that are prepared by Euratom in Europe and the Nuclear Regulatory Authority in Japan and given to the IAEA). Actual on-site inspections take part about once a year per facility.

The inspections regime that currently applies to Iran is already far more stringent than for any other country.



 

DRoseDARs

(6,810 posts)
6. Incorrect and correct. The relevent section is vague, hence debate on interpretation.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:00 AM
Nov 2013

"Waa waa waa whitey done me wrong" does not further the debate.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
8. Oh for petes sake take that load somewhere else or add the sarcasm thingy.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:36 AM
Nov 2013

"brute force" would be a military attack. No, Iran never SAID they were developing a nuclear weapon, but their enrichment level was much higher than whats needed for power generation. They didnt have to SAY it, they were proving it every day.
How about "Sane people calm down irrational people"

bananas

(27,509 posts)
21. Iran was irrational.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 06:31 AM
Nov 2013

In the US, plans for new reactors were abandoned because they were crazy expensive. And that was before Fukushima. If it's not rational in the US, how is it going to be rational in Iran? It isn't.

A joint report by the Federation of American Scientists and the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace concluded:

"No sound strategic energy planning would prioritize nuclear energy in a country like Iran," the report said.

"Instead of enhancing Iran's energy security, the nuclear program has diminished the country's ability to diversify and achieve real energy independence."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/03/us-iran-nuclear-report-idUSBRE93200620130403


The report is on the Federation of American Scientists website at http://blogs.fas.org/blog/2013/04/new-report-analyzing-irans-nuclear-program-costs-and-risks/

and on the Carnegie website at http://carnegieendowment.org/2013/04/02/iran-s-nuclear-odyssey-costs-and-risks/fvui

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
41. I think that's not the word you're looking for.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:22 PM
Nov 2013

"Irrational" is a word that means incapable of reason, incoherent, unthinking.

Nuclear power might not be the best option for Iran, but for them to pursue it isn't irrational, any more than our continued use of petroleum is irrational on our part. It's not the best idea, but it's not because we - or they - are gibbering mindless morons.

You want irrationality on this issue, I think you might want to look a little closer to home.

Between 2001 and 2009, we had as president a man who believed that Iran was Gog, a herald of the biblical end times, and that it would go to war with Israel resulting in Jesus coming back to usher in God's Kingdom On Earth. He clung to Reagan-era policies towards Iran, classing them as part of the "Axis of Evil." While doing so, he absolutely wrecked a neighboring state supposedly on that "axis" to the point where, a decade later, it's barely even a nation anymore. He absolutely refused to engage in even the barest amount of diplomacy towards Iran, instead using threats of murderous carnage and economic destruction to get what he wanted out of them, leading in large part to the 2005 victory of hardliner Ahmedinejad who, to be honest, wasn't all there himself (but had considerably less influence on Iranian policy than the American president does on the US.) Meanwhile, our Shitty Little Client States in the region, Israel and Saudi Arabia, are running around literally trying their hardest to get a live war going with Iran, because Israel wants to be sole regional power, and because Saudi Arabia likes a lot of dead Shia. Over the last decade they have been throwing all the weight they have against peaceful resolution of the issue, because they favor a solution that involves hundreds of thousands of dead Iranians.

So when Rouhani makes the first move, and the Iranians come to the table to act in good faith, despite the pile of baggage that's teetring over the opposite side of that table, and you call them the irrational ones? I dunno man.

One thing we can agree on though - thank goodness Obama was the one to pick up that phone and not either of the nuts he ran against!

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
13. But not higher than what is needed for medical uses, by my understanding
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 02:26 AM
Nov 2013

Read this article:

For many in Iran, nuclear issue is a medical one
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2009-12-20/world/36919797_1_nuclear-medicine-nuclear-program-uranium-enrichment-activities

That said, the deal is opening the way to future cooperation, which is good.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
30. No need to build medical facilities 200 hundred feet under a mountain
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:26 AM
Nov 2013

Not to mention the fact that Russia offered to do it for them 4 years ago. And since theyve been importing for their medical reactor, which the US supplied decades ago, they only spend 1M a yr to do it. The mediacl issue could have been settled years ago, but Iran refused to go along with the inspection of all its OTHER sites.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
44. Uranium enrichment facilities are not medical facilities
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 03:35 PM
Nov 2013

Their products go to medical facilities. It has been established that these nuclear products can not only be used in weapons, despite the constant argle bargle about 20% enrichment being a sign of devilry by the right wing media.

The patient in that article is living proof that they are lying.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
47. Again, no reason to build it 200 ft underground if its PRODUCT is only for medical use
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 07:23 PM
Nov 2013

Its not just the right wing that doesnt trust the Iranians. If you are enriching uranium for medical use, there is no need to hide the facility enriching it, bury it, and not allow it to be inspected.
In the beginning, they were saying it was only for power generation. They could have enriched uranium offered by the Russians.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
54. It is only the right wing spreading the the lie that it can only be used for weapons.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 12:00 AM
Nov 2013

I did not say anything about trust. That's a different issue.


We can definitely not trust right wingers to tell us the truth.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
59. The Iranians themselves never mentioned medical use at the start
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 09:54 AM
Nov 2013

And the fact that they tried to hide the facility until they were called on it shows that medical use was never more than an afterthought for this facility. Why spend billions if that was the purpose when they could import it, like so many other countries do, for a mere few million?

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
62. A 850k patient afterthought?
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 04:26 PM
Nov 2013

Ruhollah Solook, and countless others who have been saved by this medicine might beg to differ. If you want to be taken seriously by people on the opposite sides of the issue, then you have to make sure all your statements and implications are based on fact. 20% uranium is not just used in weapons. That is a fact and you should not mislead readers otherwise.


As for whether they should allow UN inspectors access to everything they need, I think they should have done so from the start. So no argument on that point. I have always said that they should comply with the NPT. I do not think any nation should have nuclear weapons.

Even though the US is shamefully exempt from the NPT, is worth noting that the government just barred UN inspectors from visiting US prisons to check on human rights violations, from which they are not exempt. So pot meet kettle.

Nobody has threatened to bomb us over it for some reason.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
63. You want to trust the Iranians, fine. Go ahead. Whats the risk?
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 05:58 PM
Nov 2013

The risk is that, like many times in the past, they won't keep up their part of the bargain and will build a bomb. What do you have then? You have several of the OTHER Mid East countries that will want to get one too. Pakistan already said they'd give one to Saudi Arabia. Funny how when Israel is the only one with a nuke for years, all those other countries havent sought out their own. Why? Because they know the Iranians are different. You don't like any country to have "the bomb", what you'll end up with is many MORE that will have it.

My point is, and has been, if this were just for medical use and power generation, it would NOT be built under a mountain. They would NOT be spreading their facilities across the country in hardened sites. They would have accepted Russia's offer to supply them with the material they need. They have refused many offers with regard to power generation and medical supplies. What good reason would there be for that?

If you want to compare prisons with nukes, thats more like pot meet tire.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
64. When you start off with a lie it makes it hard for people to listen to the rest of your arguement
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 12:52 AM
Nov 2013

That is why I interjected. Your post made a false implication parroting a right wing TV meme about 20% uranium. You should avoid repeating that one in the future to have stronger credibility on the issue.

PS - Also your comment about pot meet tire was pretty cute. I guess I would agree. One is real suffering and the other doesn't exist.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
65. I did not LIE. When the subject of medical use was brought up, I answered that factually.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 09:51 AM
Nov 2013

You insist on continuing to bring up "right wing" in each message. Whatever. That seems to be the knee-jerk here whenever someone doesnt agree with what you post. Nothing I said was a lie. From the START they said this was for developing their power generation capabilities. Then they figured they'd get more sympathy if they brought up the medical issue. The Russians have offered for YEARS to supply the Iranians with medical level radioactive material. It would cost them pennies compared to what they're spending to build all these facilities.
And again, if they were doing what they're doing only for peaceful uses of power and medicine, why are they building ALL their facilities hundreds of feet under mountains?
How do all the other countries in the ME get THEIR medical radiopharm products? Other non-nuclear countries in the world?

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
66. Let's look at post #8 again.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 11:52 AM
Nov 2013

"No, Iran never SAID they were developing a nuclear weapon, but their enrichment level was much higher than whats needed for power generation."

The first half of that sentence creates a false implication when paired with the second. Even when both halves are true, when paired in that manner, it creates a lie. It is a pretty weaselly way to lie too. I hope you understand how badly that undermines a lot of the other stuff you are saying, even if it is valid.

Falsus in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
67. Wrong. Because in the beginning, they said it was for peaceful use; for power generation.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 04:32 PM
Nov 2013

I dont understand how you look at either part of that sentence and call it false. THATS why I answered the previous post about; post #2. Again, the subject of medical use had not come up at that time. When it did, I answered that question factually as well. There is nothing wrong with either of my statements. Neither are wrong, which means taken alone, they are also correct.
My initial comment was an answer to post #2, which mentioned that Iran had never said they were developing a weapon. I simply stated what they DID say they were doing. They themselves never mentioned that they needed medical material. In the beginning it was all about the right to develop power generating capability. Maybe they should've STARTED with the medical need argument?

And once AGAIN, why do they need to develop power and medical nuclear facilities hundreds of feet underground at every critical site? In a country known for earthquakes? After being offered solutions, not by the evil west, but by the friendly Russians?

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
68. Sounds like you did not read the article
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 05:51 AM
Nov 2013

The medical aspect has been part of UN negotiations since the beginning. Just because you did not read about it until today, doesn't mean it just came up.

"In June, Iran informed the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that fuel obtained from Argentina in 1993 would run out by the end of 2010 -- a projection now apparently moved up. But the U.N. sanctions prevent Iran from buying more fuel on the world market.

Iran says it can produce its own fuel, although that could provoke an international furor because it would need to enrich uranium to 19.75 percent -- a level technologically closer to weapons-grade material.

"We prefer to buy the fuel, in the shortest possible time," said Mohammad Ghannadi, vice president of the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran (AEOI).
"

That said, you were indeed making the implication that 20% enriched uranium was for weapons only and are not fooling anyone. So either you need to do better research on this subject or stop intentionally spreading warmonger propaganda.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
69. And once again, you dont build medical facilities 200 ft underground
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 11:27 PM
Nov 2013

It doesnt matter what the Iranians SAID, it only matters what they DO.
All of this could have been done above board from the start, but thats not what they chose to do.
Russia agreed to supply them with what they needed. They could still take that deal. They can buy it now, at a higher than normal price, yes, but still way less than the billions they've spent on their program. But publicly from the start, the Iranians said their program was to develop nuclear power generation.
From NBC News just a couple days ago: "Western nations and Israel have long feared that Iran has been seeking to develop a nuclear weapons capability. Tehran denies this, saying its nuclear program is a peaceful energy project."
But I did read your link, and they were offered the uranium in 2009. They could have had it for years by now. turned it down.

I trust my president, I just hope he does not trust them to keep their word. Which they rarely do.
Just watch, you'll see. Some wonderful agreement will be announced but they Iranians will find something "unfair" about it and back out. Or get caught breaking the agreement.
We'll see what happens.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
24. yup.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 07:16 AM
Nov 2013

Any "deal" that denies Iran rights universally granted under the NPT will be rejected.
It stands to reason. The foremost country trying to break Iran's back on this isn't even a signatory to the NPT, not that that would have stopped it.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
3. Kerry just got a question about Israel's response and about the response form the US Congress.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:25 AM
Nov 2013

The reporter said that she'd already seen criticism on her feed from Congress. Kerry's response was "you mean the other party is critiquing the president?"

I guess he couldn't resist.

karynnj

(59,503 posts)
7. Couldn't resist is likely the case
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:30 AM
Nov 2013

What amazes me is that he arrived early in the morning Geneva time from the US - where he had worked all day. Then was in negotiations for most of the day until early the next morning -- and the press conference was at something like 5:30 Geneva time. Amazing that he was even coherent - much less describing the complicated details.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
14. That is a long day
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 02:43 AM
Nov 2013

I'm sure he took a nap on the flight over. DC to Geneva has to be a 7-8 hour flight.

I was watching him wondering whether he'd get through a full four years or not. I have a feeling 3 years in he's going to retire.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
17. CNN - 6 month deal, can enrich for non-weapon purposes...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 04:50 AM
Nov 2013

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/23/world/meast/iran-nuclear-talks-geneva/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


..
The agreement -- described as an "initial, six-month" deal -- includes "substantial limitations that will help prevent Iran from creating a nuclear weapon," U.S. President Barack Obama said in a nationally televised address.
...
Iran also agreed to provide "increased transparency and intrusive monitoring of its nuclear program," it said.

...
However, Israeli Intelligence Minister Yubal Steinitz reiterated the Israeli government stance when he said Sunday morning that the last-second amendments put into the agreement are "far from satisfactory."
...
Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif called the deal an opportunity "to avert an unnecessary crisis."
...
As part of the deal, according to Zarif, Iran retains the right to nuclear technology, including the enriching of uranium under the terms of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons -- which requires it not to create nuclear weapons or enable other countries to obtain them.
...


Interesting...

bananas

(27,509 posts)
23. "The first step, let me be clear, does not say that Iran has a right to enrich uranium," Kerry said
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 06:58 AM
Nov 2013
"The first step, let me be clear, does not say that Iran has a right to enrich uranium," Kerry said, appearing to contradict claims earlier by Iran's Deputy Foreign Minister Seyed Abbas Araghchi.


 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
37. I suspect Iran might just tell them to fuck off. They reportedly have 19000 centrifuges,
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:34 AM
Nov 2013

are building newer and more advanced ones. I bet they aren't just going to unplug them and say "Ok, all good"

bananas

(27,509 posts)
51. enrich to 5% max, and get rid of their 20% stockpile
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:00 PM
Nov 2013
Iran can keep its centrifuges, but new centrifuges cannot be installed. The centrifuges already in place but not currently operating cannot be started up. The country has to stop enriching uranium beyond 5 percent and has to dilute or convert into oxide its 20 percent stockpile.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/11/24/world/middleeast/Understanding-the-Deal-With-Iran.html?_r=0

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
52. And it doesn't sound like the WH is all that sure of it either...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:26 PM
Nov 2013

"The President underscored that the United States will remain firm in our commitment to Israel, which has good reason to be skeptical about Iran’s intentions," the White House wrote."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014656659

If the WH was at all sure of this deal, I suspect they wouldn't have added those last few words. Some deal.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
27. Two points.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 09:40 AM
Nov 2013

The Iranians are saying that the right to enrich uranium is implicit in the deal (and, from what I can tell, it is). They have agreed not to enrich it up to weapons-grade material. They are, therefore, allowed to enrich it enough for nuclear power and medical technology. As such, this unattributed statement from this unnamed senior official is pure B.S., and the person who said it is quite suspect.

Second, let us remember that Israel and Saudi Arabia are none too happy about this development. They're both mad that we backed off on Syria, and now we're making peace with their enemy, Iran.

Recent statements made by the Saudi leadership are posing a real challenge to the United States and provoking speculation about near-future developments and whether a "divorce" is possible between this pair of strategic allies.

Prince Bandar bin Sultan, Saudi secretary-general for national security and chief of intelligence, strongly criticized U.S. foreign policy recently and said that the kingdom "will make a major shift in foreign policy." The statement suggests that the monarchy is distancing itself from its principal strategic ally. It also appears to confirm Riyadh’s intent to form an alliance with Israel against the Islamic Republic of Iran. Saudi Arabia currently has no diplomatic relations with Israel, maintaining only discreet contact in an effort to foster stability in the region.

http://watchingamerica.com/News/226591/is-saudi-arabia-heading-for-a-shift-in-foreign-policy/


Very interesting, indeed, but take the statement from the anonymous senior administration official with a grain of salt.'

-Laelth

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
31. Not quite
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:57 AM
Nov 2013
They are, therefore, allowed to enrich it enough for nuclear power and medical technology.


They're not being permitted to enrich sufficiently for medical isotopes. In fact they are required to downblend their existing stockpile of MEU.

It also appears to confirm Riyadh’s intent to form an alliance with Israel against the Islamic Republic of Iran.


Complete and utter horse shit. Both the Israelis and Saudis are far more dependent on the US than they ever could be with each other. Israel in particular is not going to do anything to jeopardise ties with the US. Pretty lurid reporting from the Sunday Times really.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
32. Yes, Israel and SA are dependent upon us.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:59 AM
Nov 2013

We have the power to ignore their wishes and pursue our own foreign policy in the region. That does not mean that they like what we're doing.

-Laelth

muriel_volestrangler

(101,311 posts)
33. As the link in #17 says, noted in #23, Kerry has said this publicly too
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:15 AM
Nov 2013

So the "unattributed statement from this unnamed senior official" was just an earlier statement of what Kerry has said since then. Not at all 'BS' or 'suspect', and no need for a grain of salt.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
36. If Secretary Kerry said that, and it appears he did ...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:32 AM
Nov 2013

... then he was being disingenuous and sloppy in his remarks. And that's too bad because it is quite clear that Iran will continue to enrich uranium and that we have agreed to allow them to do so--not weapons grade enrichment, mind you, but nuclear power grade enrichment. At the very least, that's what the Iranians are saying.



-Laelth

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
35. If Saudis align themselves with Israel
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:32 AM
Nov 2013

their monarchy will be over. It will not be a popular thing amongst average saudis and it will actually make Iran stronger in the eyes of the Muslim world as standing up to Israel and helping the palestinians.

Saudis are playing with fire there.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
38. Saudi Arabia is already in trouble.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:37 AM
Nov 2013

The prospect of civil unrest in SA is increasing.

The internal challenges facing the Saudi elite are equally serious, particularly the growing numbers of younger citizens who are turning away from Shariah law. A significant proportion of young people between 15 and 39 years old — 46 percent of the country’s 30 million inhabitants — are rejecting the law as laid down by the Salafist clergy and calling for more freedom.

http://watchingamerica.com/News/226591/is-saudi-arabia-heading-for-a-shift-in-foreign-policy/


We may be playing with fire by weakening the Saudi monarchy. Hard to say.



-Laelth
 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
39. Destruction of the Saudi Monarchy
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:44 AM
Nov 2013

would be a good thing.

Saudis have been the major financial force behind many terrorist organizations by funneling money through tinpot banana republics like Yemen, Pakistan and Sudan. In addition, madrassahs funded by Saudi money teach wahabism at the expense of science, math and literature. Millions of school children around the world are deprived of real education and become religious islamobots who cannot contribute to society and GDP.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
40. Perhaps.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:55 AM
Nov 2013

I certainly have no interest in defending Saudi culture, nor do I deny that their religious fundamentalists have caused great harm. That's true.

But, they are our allies. Japan and Western Europe are completely dependent upon oil from the Middle East, and they depend upon us to insure that the oil continues to flow. Anything that might cause instability in SA is cause for alarm--for us and our allies.

-Laelth

NickB79

(19,236 posts)
46. If SA fell into civil war
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 05:25 PM
Nov 2013

It would be US-made tanks and other weapons driving through Saudi streets, killing Saudi citizens.

There would be US soldiers protecting Saudi oil facilities to keep the oil flowing. To not do this would be flirting with an oil shock far greater than the one that crippled global economies in the 1970's.

These things would not endear the Saudi populace to the US in any way, shape or form.

crim son

(27,464 posts)
56. In my mind this sticking point epitomizes how utterly stupid these negotiations are.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 02:35 AM
Nov 2013

Having said that, we have decided to ignore the question of their right to do what they choose to do with their own resources and so be it. Does anybody actually believe that our authorization means anything at all, realistically?

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
58. Lavrov: Win-win Iran deal only became possible after Rouhani came to power
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 08:25 AM
Nov 2013

The nuclear deal agreed between Iran and the P5+1 group is a win-win situation for everyone, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said, adding that it only became possible after Iran’s new president, Hassan Rouhani, came to power.

“The very long and difficult negotiations on the Iranian nuclear program have ended, an agreement has been reached, and this deal crowns [our] longstanding relations, during which we’ve seen both ups and downs,” Lavrov told journalists.

The agreement means that “we agree with the necessity to recognize Iran’s right to the peaceful atom, including the right to enrichment, with the understanding that all questions we currently have for the program will be [settled] and the whole program will be put under the IAEA’s strict control,” he said. “It’s the final aim, but it’s already fixed in today’s document.”

http://rt.com/news/lavrov-iran-deal-agreement-223/

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