Egypt's draft constitution strengthens army, to be concluded on Thursday.

[dipsydoodle]

Source: Reuters

Egypt's new constitution would strengthen the army's hand and could ban Islamist parties outright, according to a final draft published in state media, and the assembly writing the text said it was poised to finish its work on Thursday.

One human rights lawyer said it reinforced the army's status of state within a state.

A referendum on the constitution expected in December would be a milestone in the army's plan for political transition after it deposed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi in July.

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While the last constitution largely preserved the military's privileges, the new draft appears to go further.

A text published by the state-run al-Ahram newspaper on Thursday says the choice of defense minister must be approved by the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces for a period of eight years from the time the constitution is passed into law.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/28/us-egypt-constitution-idUSBRE9AR0EX20131128

[blkmusclmachine]

1. ,

,

[Comrade Grumpy]

2. Cough.

[MADem]

3. I wish them luck. They're better off without Morsi, he was destroying the nation.

I hope they take the "democratic state" and "civilian rule" elements to heart.

Salmawy said mass protests ahead of Mursi's ouster had signaled the public's opposition to a "religious state". The new constitution's preamble declared Egypt "a modern democratic state under civilian rule", he added.

The Islamists have yet to say whether they will try to rally a no vote against the constitution. For the Brotherhood, that would amount to tacit recognition of the new political process.

[kelliekat44]

5. Oh, please! He didn't even have time to "destroy" the nation. The destruction was the coup...and

still is.

[MADem]

6. I can't bother engaging in a debate with someone who doesn't know what he did to their constitution,

and who doesn't understand that he was seizing power and ruling by decree, destroying the character of the nation and acting unilaterally against the desires of the people. It's clear you don't understand that he was elected by a small minority of the people--his election was not "by popular demand"--not by a long shot.

Why do you think more people than were in the streets to oust Mubarak were protesting to get him out of there? Do you really think his people murdering shi'a because they're "heretical monsters" was "OK?"

The guy was a nut and a thug, and it's good that he's gone. Now I hope Egypt can get back on track.

It's got to be a pretty bad situation when the overwhelming majority PREFER an Army "overseer" to the guy a small minority of the nation elected.

[Comrade Grumpy]

7. Right. And the army is making the constitution all better.

Your account of the Morsi regime is tendentious and propagandistic. And attempts to rewrite history.

Morsi WON the election. Not with a "small minority" of the people, but with 52% of the vote. Did Obama win his election with a "small minority" of the people?

Morsi was in a fight with the Mubarek judiciary and all the rest of Egypt's authoritarian apparatus known as "the deep state." The judiciary attempted (quite successfully) to sabotage the Morsi regime from the outset.

The Egyptian army murdered more people in one day than were killed throughout the Morsi presidency.

I almost feel sorry for the cool kid secular liberal revolutionary types. They got played by the military, and now they're going to get to join the Brotherhood people in prison or in the graveyard.

[MADem]

12. Oh horse shit--how many people actually VOTED?

Percentages look impressive, but when a minority of the population is turning out to vote, they become meaningless.

Here's the truth about "hero Morsi"--it's ugly:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/Backchannels/2013/0703/Timeline-the-awkward-dance-of-Obama-and-Morsi

Funny how the bulk of the nation supported the interim military rule, not just grudgingly, but vigorously. Why do you suppose that is?

Do you think maybe not getting raped in the street had something to do with it? Not having your church burned down by the Bretheren played a role?? Not being attacked and killed if you were shi'a?

I don't think (nor does anyone with a brain) that the people want military rule forever and ever--they just want reasonable rule. They don't want a fundie nut who rewrites the Constitution and then has a rubber stamp body "approve" it. That is why al-Sisi--who ironically, is a very religious man and conservative and was picked by Morsi for those reasons--was looked to as the short-term answer. Despite being conservative, he thought the stunts that al Morsi was pulling with the Constitution were just wrong.

The Morsi supporters are fringe fundies--outliers. They're like the tea party, only more murderous. They aren't the mainstream.

I hope poor Egypt can find their way. They were heading to the sewer with al Morsi running the show, though.

[Comrade Grumpy]

14. That is a feeble argument. You can do better.

Elections are decided by those who vote.

The military killed more Copts in one day in November 2011 than the Muslim Brotherhood ever did. (And blaming the MB for every attack on Copts is just propaganda).

Have you ever addressed the continuing power of the Mubarek "deep state"?

You don't think the people want military rule forever. Well, they probably don't, but the military is positioning itself to do just that. Maybe they'll create a nice democatic facade to keep you happy.

It's hardly worth discussing this with someone who reduces complex matters to cartoons and slogans.

[MADem]

15. No, it isn't. You're overlaying over two centuries of USA democracy on the Egyptian people

and excoriating them because they aren't yet "up to speed."

Egypt has no democratic tradition. Their tradition is to look to the military to bail them out when things go badly. It's rather similar to Turkey in that regard, though Turkey has experience with democracy since Ataturk (a military man) instituted the concept that has always had, as an overlay, a guiding military hand if the nation strays too far from their Attaturkian ideals. The Egyptians, like the Turks, TRUST the military to put the survival of the nation first, and their trust is well placed given the military's role throughout Egypt's modern history.

You do realize that every leader since Nasser (actually, the guy before Nasser too, who lasted five minutes, who deposed King Farouk), has been military? Don't be fooled by Sadat in the bespoke suit--that man was military, as was Muhamad Hosni Mubarak.

This isn't about "democatic" (sp) facades. Democracy just isn't a thing that is learned overnight; the Egyptians really fucked up when they put al Morsi in the job (and despite the low turnout, there were strong allegations of vote fraud by the MB as well, but that is a discussion for another day) , they saw what he did to the Constitution (gutted it), they saw what he did to the legislature (turned it into a rubber stamp piece of shit), they saw their life's blood tourist industry flushed down the pan, and they turned to the military to get them out of the mess they made by taking to the streets in enormous numbers--as large as the Arab spring demonstrations. The military answered their call.

The Egyptian people reverted to form when they asked the military to bail them out of the mess al Morsi got them in. Hopefully they will learn from that fuck up and do better next time.

[reACTIONary]

17. +100...

...after the Iranian revolution, the proposed constitution had very visible, superficial aspects of democracy, but gave ultimate power to the clerics. They fell for it. "Hopefully they will learn from that fuck up and do better next time." lf they get a next time.

[U4ikLefty]

19. They continue to get away with it here on DU

wonder why?

[MADem]

10. If you lived there in a village with a ten year old daughter I doubt you'd feel that way.

But hey, the view is great from a high horse.

Saudi Arabia in a new poll beats out Egypt as a better place for women to live. What does that tell you?

[Archae]

8. I just read an article that lists some of Morsi's party's edicts.

I'm not sure about the source, since it sounds like a right-wing site, and the author is connected to Regnery.

But these edicts from Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood, if true, are right out of the Dark Ages.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4069/egypt-salafi-fatwas

I mean, women aren't allowed to turn on the A/C because it might cause them to commit adultery?

Women swimming in the ocean are "adulterous?"

"An earlier report (summarized in English here) listed some other fatwas issued by the Brotherhood and Salafis during Morsi's tenure: advocating for the destruction of the pyramids and sphinx; scrapping the Camp David Accords; killing anyone protesting against ousted Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi (which happened and is one of the main charges against the imprisoned Brotherhood leadership); forbidding Muslims from greeting Christians; forbidding Muslim cab drivers from transporting Christian priests (whose clothing makes them identifiable); forbidding TV shows that mock or make light of Islamists; and forbidding women from marrying any men involved with the former Mubarak government."

[MADem]

9. Morsi was a fundy nut-job, and he was "progressive" compared to his core supporters who were

pushing him to become even more nut-jobbish.

When his government rolled back the pedophile, er, marriage laws to allow girls younger than 13 to be sold into marriage, the "honeymoon"--pardon the tasteless expression--was over AFAIWC.

I find it amazing that people here continue to support him as IF his election was "the will of the people." It wasn't. It was the will of a fucked up system that Egypt hasn't quite gotten a handle on--after all, they know nothing but autocratic rule; sometimes benevolent, sometimes not so much. Farouk, Nasser, Sadat, Mubarak--these guys weren't elected, they 'assumed' power--in more ways than one; it's going to take a few fits and starts before Egypt gets it right. When ten percent of the country can, in effect, pick the president because there is no gatekeeping process that will pick someone who actually represents the bulk of the nation, then there are problems that are going to develop. As they get more sophisticated, they'll come to realize that coalitions who support a "Let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good" candidate is the way to go--everyone gets a little something, even if no one gets the whole Magilla.

Egypt used to be kind of a quirky place--yes, there was autocratic rule and limitations on freedom of expression--which wasn't a good thing, mind, but the conditions for women were among the best in the region, at least in the cities--women could become educated, work, participate in society, all without fear. Then in came Morsi and women were getting raped in the street, shi'as were being dragged from their homes and beaten to death and burned as infidels, and child marriage was back on the table. That kind of shit is hardly "progressive" and doing it in the name of religion is BS to my mind.

AJ has something to say on the gender issues: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/11/poll-egypt-worst-arab-state-women-2013111295848639116.html

We know it's BAD when Saudi Arabia is a better place for women than Egypt.

[Archae]

11. This is nothing new, either.

You should have seen all the mindless support a guy named Khomeni got from groups in Europe and the US, only because he was anti-Shah.

Khomeni was open and honest about what he wanted to do if he got power in Iran, then he and his goons did.

[MADem]

13. I watched that side show from my perch in Iran.

I watched Shah leave with his little cask of Persian soil on NIRT television, and Khomeini arrive.

It was a madhouse. The pasdaran were acting like real assholes, too (they have only gotten worse down the years).

Funny enough, everyone in Iran had a different idea of what the Ayatullah would do once he arrived. Pretty much all of them were wrong. Some women actually thought they would have more rights under Khomeini--boy, were they given "what for!"

Everyone who could leave, did, in the months and years that followed. It was a bit sketchy when the hostages were taken, too. What a mess!

[reACTIONary]

18. I can see that...

...I need not reply to your posts with observation concerning K or Iran !

[U4ikLefty]

20. ...and you were pro-Shah as well?

[MADem]

21. I have always been pro-Iranian people.

I want them to have self determination, not be told by Shah or cleric what they must do.

[reACTIONary]

16. +100 (nt)

[bemildred]

4. Oy. nt

[hrmjustin]

22. I feel so sorry for the people of Egypt who are caught up in this mess.