Islamist rebels abduct 12 nuns from Syrian town

[Alamuti Lotus]

Source: Al-Akhbar/Reuters/AFP

Islamist fighters who captured a Christian village north of Damascus have moved 12 nuns to a nearby town in what may have been a kidnapping, the Vatican's ambassador to Syria said on Tuesday.

The militants took the ancient quarter of Maaloula on Monday after heavy fighting with government forces. Syrian state media said they were holding the nuns captive in the Greek Orthodox monastery of Mar Thecla.

Ambassador Mario Zenari told AFP that 12 Syrian and Lebanese Orthodox nuns had been abducted by rebels. All communications with the town have been cut since Monday, an AFP correspondent in Damascus said.

But pro-rebel sources cited by Reuters said the nuns were safe and that the real threat to them came from what they described as random Syrian army bombardment of Maaloula.

Read more: http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/islamist-rebels-abduct-12-nuns-syrian-town

[cosmicone]

2. This is why we should support Bashar Assad's government

It may be brutal to the Islamists but it is secular and tolerant of religious minorities, women and other ethnicities.

If we came out in support of Bashar, it will allow him to be less brutal and fizzle out the "rebels." It may piss off the sheikhdoms of bedouin sunni arabs but who cares?

[AverageJoe90]

3. He was brutal to damn near everyone else, too, let's not lie.

As much as I despise the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamic-fascists, Al-Assad has proven to be little better himself.....under slightly different circumstances, I do think they'd actually be *friends* now rather than rivals now.....

[ausboy]

5. how was he brutal compared to these maniacs?

AverageJoe please don't. Assad has isn't perfect but he is far better than the jihadist rebels that are raping nuns, ripping peoples chests open, beheadings, eating hearts, and forcing conversions. Every time these rebels come to vandalise a town, the Syrian army comes to liberate and th cycle starts again. Do not ever call a bunch of wacko extremists as better than the current Syrian government...

As a Syrian, who lived under his rule, it was paradise compared to what it is now. I find your comments genuintely insulting and hurtful. These rebels have killed family and friends of mine because they werent Muslim. Do I want these in power?

If only the American government stops helping these terrorists this humanitarian tragedy would come to an end sooner rather than later

[Jesus Malverde]

7. Welcome to DU..nt

[cosmicone]

8. Finally a voice of someone who has been there!

There are a lot of fundamentalist muslim sympathizers on DU and it is refreshing to hear reality.

Welcome to DU

[burnsei sensei]

23. +1

nt

[demosincebirth]

27. You bet!

[jamzrockz]

11. Thanks for saving that

Sometimes people have a choice between the lesser of 2 evils and Assad is clearly the lesser of the 2 evils. Libya is an example of what happens when the west tries to fix things with force.

[oberliner]

6. "This is why we should support Bashar Assad's government"

Wow.

Stunning to read something like that on a board like this.

[cosmicone]

9. Read post No. 5 instead of

the usual canned response that fits ideology but not reality.

[oberliner]

28. I've read it

It is stunning.

[Jesus Malverde]

13. Yes, from an American perspective it's better to deal with an autocratic

Secular dictator like Assad. One educated in Europe, whose state maintains a modern civil society. One that guarantees the rights of women and minorities.

Turning Syria into another Afghanistan and safe haven for those who want to destroy us is not in our national interest. One would have thought the slaughter of black Libyans at the climax of the Libyan revolution would have taught us something.

Assad has a history of cooperation with the United States in the war on terror. They never were a safe haven for the terrorists attacking our troops in Iraq, contrary to neocon blowviations . They've actively worked with the CIA in the war on terror imprisoning and torturing Canadian Maher Arar after he was kidnapped and rendered in NY.

Assad more recently has cooperated directly with the United States in destroying his stockpiles of Chemical Weapons. Which may be done on an American ship. These efforts make the region more stable. Given the choice between the two it's obvious which side the United States choose.

Assad continues to destroy the jihadist militants of chechnya, qatar, Libya, Saudi and beyond. These are exactly the motivated killers who if not directed to Syria to be dealt with would be causing trouble for us and our gulf allies. The biggest disaster for the United States would be if these battle hardened fanatics made it back to their home countries.

Assuming the United States is not coming home from the gulf anytime soon. It makes sense that these volunteers have never had air support and are ordered to fight like a conventional army, while armed like irregular forces.

The United States would like a negotiated settlement with a legitimate government. All thats left of the FSA are fanatic killers and criminal mercenaries. You hardly hear the term "FSA" anymore with reason.

[ausboy]

19. its been 3 years...

If they dont want us to think this is about selling weapons, they are failing miserably.

Because in reality if you want to stop the humanitarian crisis, it simply requires that weapon traffic and Intel stops going to the rebels.

It was genuinely a beautiful country with rich history.. sad to see all this...

[Jesus Malverde]

20. What has stuck me, watching battle footage, is how amazing the country is.

It's got these beautiful rolling brownish/green hills covered in olive groves and beautiful farms.

The other thing that I've learned is that everything/ all the houses seem to be built out of concrete or stone. Seeing that most american homes are built of wood I found it interesting. It's tragic to see the devastation to these cities.

[oberliner]

29. Like when we backed the Shah in Iran?

That kind of autocratic secular dictator?

[Jesus Malverde]

34. Failing to support him in the end was a big mistake.

If you were a secular progressive Iranian these last decades have been a nightmare.

Getting rid of morsi was a win for the minorities and women of Egypt.

Getting rid of Edrogan will be a win for the minorities and women of Turkey.

Getting rid of the house of Saud will be a win for minorities and women of Saudi Arabia and
Bahrain.

Encouraging the secular states over the religious states and monarchies is a no brainer.

The biggest question really is, who supports/rationalizes or gives comfort to kidnappers of Christian Nuns and attacks on world heritage sites...

[burnsei sensei]

24. Wherever we have not supported constructed authority

in the Middle East, there has been DISASTER.
See Iraq.
See Libya.
See Egypt.
End of story.

[oberliner]

30. In Iran, we supported constructed authority

Remember the Shah? How'd that work out?

[burnsei sensei]

35. We refused to support constructed authority,

re: the coup against Mossadegh.
Again, wherever we refuse to support constructed authority in the Middle East, there is disaster.
It was this ill-advised CIA adventure that put the Shah into power.

[muriel_volestrangler]

33. No, we should not support war criminals

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014661585

And his family has been in control for decades, and has been brutal to the population (massacring whole towns), as well as supporting terrorism elsewhere.

The Islamists are bad. That does not excuse the Assad regime for all its evil. There is no way we should support it.

[cosmicone]

41. Let me get this straight ...

we should fuck up the lives of countless minorities, women and moderate Syrians and bring about a 10 times more brutal Islamic republic so that our ideology feels better?

The world belongs to pragmatists and not ideologues.

The most recent example of ideology over pragmatism was the government shutdown brought on by the teabaggers. Do we want to be a progressive equivalent of the tea party where we cannot compromise with a "greater good" paradigm?

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. No; you are profoundly mistaken

Saying "we should not support Assad" in no way means "we should fuck up the lives of countless minorities, women and moderate Syrians and bring about a 10 times more brutal Islamic republic".

We do not have to support either Assad or the Islamists.

Can you not see that? Do you truly think that "the enemy of my enemy is always my friend"? If so, then it is you who has the logic of a tea-partier, and it is you who is an ideologue. Syria has more options than Assad or the Islamists, and we can't support one just because the other has currently gone ahead in the count of atrocities. Assad and his regime are brutal murderers, and were so before the Islamists began fighting him.

[cosmicone]

43. If we don't support Assad

then the balance of power shifts to the Islamists who are funded by Saudi Arabia and Qatar plus have foreign fighters from Afghanistan, Chechnya, Pakistan and Bangladesh. To top that, it is suspected that Mossad is secretly providing intelligence to the rebels to weaken Hizbollah.

Doing nothing is not in our nation's best interest. We don't want to create more Afghanistans and Sudans and Libyas around the world. To protect our national interest and our values of secularism and freedom for women, we have to support Assad.

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. I am appalled to see anyone on DU suggesting supprting Assad

You need a course in morals. You must not support a mass murderer. It is not worth listening to anything you say, on any topic, until you have changed your ways.

[cosmicone]

45. There is no evidence that Assad has been a mass murderer

except coming from bedouin Arab countries and Israel.

Assad is actually cooperating with the US to destroy all chemical weapons. Like it or not, Assad is the legitimate leader of Syria and is being attacked by foreign-funded forces. He is engaged in a civil war and wars are hell. People die in wars.

He is not just defending attacks on DU -- he is surviving against forces that want to kill him.

Lastly, countries don't take actions based upon "morals" -- they act in national interest. If everyone had lived by morality, there would be no slavery, no colonialism, no imperialism, no indentured servitude and no debt. Everyone would live in a house, be well-fed and drive a Ferrari -- or at least a Porsche.

I am seeking a pragmatic solution that helps a vast majority of Syrians. I am not seeking utopia like some on DU.

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. US Dept of State and Human Rights Watch:

The government systematically repressed citizens' ability to change their government. The security forces committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, caused politically motivated disappearances, and tortured and physically abused prisoners and detainees with impunity.

http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?page=country&category=&publisher=&type=&coi=SYR&rid=&docid=4da56d83a2&skip=0

Syria’s security services regularly hold detainees incommunicado—cut off from all contact with family, a lawyer, or any other link with the outside world— for days, months, and in some cases, years. For example, in August 2008, Syrian security forces detained a group of 13 young men from the northeastern district of Deir al-Zor suspected of having ties to Islamists. To this day, the authorities have not disclosed where they are holding at least 10 of the men, why they arrested them, or whether they will charge them and put them on trial. Prison officials returned the body of one of those detained in Deir al-Zor, Muhammad Amin al-Shawa, 43, to his family on January 10, 2009, but they allowed them to see only his face before burying him. Three Syrian human rights activists told Human Rights Watch that they believe that al-Shawa died due to torture.[40]

Human Rights Watch and other human rights groups have also documented a frequent pattern of torture and other ill‐treatment by Syria’s security services of political and human rights detainees as well as criminal suspects.[41] Out of 30 former Kurdish detainees held after 2004 and interviewed by Human Rights Watch following their release, 12 said that security forces tortured them.[42] Human Rights Watch has also documented the torture of bloggers and beatings of prominent political activists by government security agents. For example, eight of the twelve detainees from the Damascus Declaration for Democratic Change, an umbrella group of opposition and pro-democracy groups, detained in December 2007, told their investigative judge that state security agents had beaten them during detention.[43]

The UN Committee against Torture, which is tasked with monitoring compliance with the Convention against Torture, said in May 2010 that it was “deeply concerned about numerous, ongoing and consistent allegations concerning the routine use of torture by law enforcement and investigative officials…”[44] An official Canadian Commission of Inquiry into the 2002 US deportation to Syria of Maher Arar, a Syrian-born Canadian, concluded that “the SMI [Syrian Military Intelligence] tortured Mr. Arar while interrogating him during the period he was held incommunicado at the SMI’s Palestine Branch facility.”[45]

http://www.hrw.org/node/91580/section/5

[cosmicone]

47. A few isolated cases

HRW and AI never look for the reasons and have a polyanna attitude. They also accused the democratically elected Indian government of committing atrocities in Kashmir :::: eyeroll ::::

HRW and AI get more funding from true believers when they make a big deal of isolated cases that happen when countries are under a terrorist threat or in a civil war. It is no different from Rick Perry refusing to expand the medicaid program so he will get more funding from the Koch brothers.

By and large, Syrian regime is no worse than the one in Burundi or Algeria or Indonesia or even Turkey. If one takes up arms against a currently legitimate government, bad things happen.

Again, my advice, utopia doesn't exist. Live with it. I wouldn't invite Bashar Assad to my home for a dinner but he will keep Syria stable and not let it fall into the hands of dangerous Koran-thumpers.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. "A few isolated murders"

If I ever need to point out to another DUer the depths to which you will sink, I'll link to your post above.

[cosmicone]

49. No need to take it so personally

It is just a pragmatic view that comes from having lived in that part of the world where radical Islam and terrorism are the main destructive forces.

If you had lived where I lived, you may think of me as a person of reason. Peace.

[Jesus Malverde]

51. Our hatred of Assad is another Neocon adventure. Best articulated by one of it's architects mccain

“This regime in Syria serves as the main forward operating base of the Iranian regime in the heart of the Arab world. It has supported Palestinian terrorist groups and funneled arms of all kinds, including tens of thousands of rockets, to Hezbollah in Lebanon. It remains a committed enemy of Israel. It has large stockpiles of chemical weapons and materials and has sought to develop a nuclear weapons capability. It was the primary gateway for the countless foreign fighters who infiltrated into Iraq and killed our troops. Assad and his lieutenants have the blood of hundreds of Americans on their hands. Many in Washington fear that what comes after Assad might be worse. How could it be any worse than this?

“The end of the Assad regime would sever Hezbollah’s lifeline to Iran, eliminate a long-standing threat to Israel, bolster Lebanon’s sovereignty and independence, and inflict a strategic defeat on the Iranian regime. It would be a geopolitical success of the first order. More than all of the compelling moral and humanitarian reasons, this is why Assad cannot be allowed to succeed and remain in power: We have a clear national security interest in his defeat. And that alone should incline us to tolerate a large degree of risk in order to see that this goal is achieved.

http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?ContentRecord_id=e460be36-c488-e7de-8c38-64c3751adfce&FuseAction=PressOffice.FloorStatements

It has nothing to do with human rights or freedom. The irony is, if Assad were not killing Jihadist, we would accuse him of harboring terrorists. What needs to be asked over and over is who benefits from the destruction of Syria? What's clear it's not the United States.

[jessie04]

4. If no one has noticed, there is a war on Christians in ME countries.

Egypt
Lebanon
Syria

I wont say why but if you know anything , its a certain train of a religious thought that certain countries should be free of infidels.

[cosmicone]

10. It is because in the name of democracy

we have been supporting (directly or indirectly) very violent fundamentalist groups.

They believe in democracy for ONE election and once they get power, they want to convert all to Islam and behead the infidels.

The secular dictators is the best solution for these countries as the lesser of several evils. They are not perfect but they maintain stability and freedoms far better than these wahabi saudi funded fascists.

[jessie04]

12. Islam ? Fascists ?

If you say that you're opening yourself to charges of racism.

It's not PC to say Islamists are fascists here. I learned that here.

[Comrade Grumpy]

14. No, if you say that you're opening yourself to charges of being uninformed and simplistic.

You could acknowledge that there are different strains of Islamic thought, and that violent fundamentalist Islamic radicals are a distinct minority.

You could familiarize yourself with salafism and wahhabism and see who its proponents are.

You could explain what violent fundamentalist Islamic radicalism has to do with fascism, other than fascism being a nice term of propaganda.

As for "Islamo-fascism," which I suspect is the term you want to use, it has a controversial pedigree, to say the least.

Here's the Wikipedia entry to get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism

I hope you pay attention to the criticism section on Wikipedia.

[Jesus Malverde]

15. Read up on the alliances between the muslim brotherhood and the Nazi's

Links to the Nazis began during the 1930s and were close during the Second World War, involving agitation against the British, espionage and sabotage, as well as support for terrorist activities orchestrated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini in British Mandate Palestine, as a wide range of declassified documents from the British, American and Nazi German governmental archives, as well as from personal accounts and memoires from that period, confirm. Reflecting this connection the Muslim Brotherhood also disseminated Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion widely in Arab translations, helping to deepen and extend already existing hostile views about Jews and Western societies generally.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt_(1939-1954)

[Alamuti Lotus]

17. That is a superficial line of argument, really

I see where you're going with it, but you're scratching barely beneath the surface of its importance. For example, there are ties and affinities between the Indian liberation movement and the Nazis as well, equally innocuous given the greater context. Decontextualizing the topic just to prove an otherwise spurious point (of which more anon) with Jihadwatch Jessie is further compounding the distortion of the line of argument you are pursuing.

While I also risk oversimplifying the subject in the process of pointing out that the common arch-enemy of the three forces mentioned was the British Empire--in the case of India and Egypt, as a directly occupying power, and in the case of Germany an irredentist rival--that is an extremely important factor in the consideration of this matter, rather than any particular idealogical affinity. The political doctrine conceived by Hasan al-Banna and Sayyid Qutb has little, if anything, to what you suggest, except in the sense of a transitory confluence of forces that amounts to nothing more than convenience of otherwise contradictory objectives.

Besides, I'm sure Jessie already knows all about the British-installed Husayni from the thoroughly mutilated "history"--if that's what it could be called--in the hasbara that is ingested and vomited on an already-pervasive basis. You don't need to convince this individual of any real or imagined "Islam"/"Fascist" connection, the point being made is one and the same as when crude chumps whine about things they're "not allowed to say" because it's not "politically correct". Disingenuous is a kind phrase, but I'm not allowed to call it what it really is.

[burnsei sensei]

36. I understand your desire to bring this up, but it's off topic.

The Nazi regime is no more.
Whatever help Nazi war criminals received from the Muslims of the world is water under the bridge, it tells us nothing about today.
A more fruitful discussion would be the genesis of the Muslim Brotherhood and, specifically, the ideology of Hussein al-Banna. It is this man and his legacy, along with the radicalization of the organization in the 1960s-70s, which shapes today's MB more than anything else.

[Jesus Malverde]

39. You sound well informed.

Personally I'm not interesting in the nuances of the MB. They have a long history and connection to fascism. I don't assume they've gotten any better.

[burnsei sensei]

40. It's an important subject.

People have perspectives, and they have and keep them for powerful reasons.
Ayman al-Zawhiri didn't just appear from nowhere.
The worst thing we can do is make war on terror.
Terror is dispelled when we understand not just the enemy, but what made him in the first place, and why such ideology and emotion continue to have power in the world.
In the dignity of their humanity, all people are alike.
But in the quality of their differences, people are profound.
We must make room for each other, while preserving our dignity, or perish.
One world civilization, or unity is an aspiration I've ceased to entertain; I consider it an Utopian fantasy.
Peace is possible only when we acknowledge conflict.
Compromise is possible only when we are able to articulate our differences point by point.
To band-aid it all with an assertion of unity is to fail to solve the problems.

[cosmicone]

22. I am not calling all Islam as fascist

only a few movements within it are extreme radicals. Many of these movements have been funded by the Saudis, Qataris and Pakistani military-ISI complex -- using them as expendable fodder in a terrorist war.

In India and the US, we have learned to coexist. I have Muslim, Christian and Zoroastrian neighbors, employees and acquaintances in India and we attend each others' festivals all the time and enjoy life together. I have Muslim, Christian and Jewish neighbors in the US and pretty much the same thing. When people don't impose their religion on others and learn about the other religions, things go smoothly.

The problem is with indoctrination of young Muslims in madrassahs funded by Wahhabist Sunni forces in Saudi Arabia and their obedient slaves in the Pakistani government. They teach that Islam is superior and everyone else is lost and must be converted or killed.

The latter leads to politically expedient and violent movements like the Taliban which are downright fascist in their implementation of Islam and their use of Islam in governance. Sadly, a vast majority of the victims of such fascism are also Muslims.

[burnsei sensei]

37. Look at the 14-point definition of fascism.

If any Muslim organization or community structures itself by way of them, then certainly, you are seeing Islam and fascism at work.
Totalitarian ideologies, unfortunately, travel extremely well.
It is democracy that remains confined to a few small areas of the globe and humanity.
It is the exception. It is not the rule.

[oberliner]

31. "The secular dictators is the best solution for these countries"

Must've been a big fan of us supporting the Shah, right?

[burnsei sensei]

38. Their understanding of democracy is best interpreted as

a tyranny of the majority.
Given the history of the region, from ancient times onward, they will tolerate nothing else.

[Alamuti Lotus]

18. And there's a war on Christmas too! Oh noes!

[hrmjustin]

21. There is a war on religious minorities in some parts of the ME. That is real.

The Foxnews war on Christmas is about making money.

[burnsei sensei]

25. The Christians here are extremely ungrateful

for the cultural space they enjoy.
If they spent even one year among the Copts in Egypt, or in a place where Hindu fundamentalists are brutalizing Christians, they'd change their minds about the "war on Christmas" and every other fake campaign of persecution in the U.S.
Where there is real persecution afoot, most of the Christians in the U.S. say NOTHING, do NOTHING, and want to know NOTHING.

[hrmjustin]

26. Well said!

[oberliner]

32. No, just actual Christians

Weird that you would make a joke of something so serious.

[Jesus Malverde]

16. I just noticed this was Maaloula which a tourist attraction these clowns attacked

Last edited Thu Dec 5, 2013, 01:23 AM - Edit history (1)

a few months ago.

Maaloula was the scene of heavy fighting in September. It is considered to be one of the birthplaces of Christianity and is home to a number of shrines and monasteries, which are listed as UNESCO world heritage sites. It's also the only place in the world where they speak aramaic.

[Jesus Malverde]

50. Syrian rebel group demands hostage swap for abducted nuns

A Syrian rebel group calling itself "Free Qalamoun" has claimed the kidnapping of 12 nuns and said it wants to trade them for a thousand female detainees held by the government, a pan-Arab newspaper reported on Friday.

Rebel spokesman Mohannad Abu al-Fidaa told Asharq al-Awsat that the nuns were safe but "will not be released until several demands have been implemented, most importantly, the release of 1,000 Syrian women held in regime prisons".

Reuters could not independently confirm the report.

An official at the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate in Damascus said the nuns were safe but would not comment on which group had taken them.

http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-rebel-group-demands-hostage-swap-abducted-nuns-104226733.html