Former Pink Floyd frontman sparks fury by comparing Israelis to Nazis
Source: Guardian
Inflammatory remarks by the musician Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, comparing the modern Israeli state to Nazi Germany have put him at the centre of a furious dispute.
Performers and religious figures reacted angrily to the veteran rock star's argument that Israeli treatment of the Palestinians can be compared to the atrocities of Nazi Germany. "The parallels with what went on in the 1930s in Germany are so crushingly obvious," he said in an American online interview last week.
Waters, 70, a well-known supporter of the Palestinian cause, has frequently defended himself against accusations that he is antisemitic, claiming he has a right to urge fellow artists to boycott Israel.
This summer he was criticised for using a pig-shaped balloon adorned with Jewish symbols, including a Star of David, as one part of the stage effects at his concerts. Waters countered that it was just one of several religious and political symbols in the show and not an attempt to single out Judaism as an evil force.
Now leading American thinker Rabbi Shmuley Boteach has raised the stakes by describing Waters' views as audacious and clearly antisemitic.
Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/dec/14/pink-floyd-frontman-fury-israel-nazis
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truthisfreedom
(23,532 posts)It never ends well.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)...then if I were Roger, I wouldn't give the slightest shit what the critics thought.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If Israel's jackboots fit? Seriously?
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)kick in the doors, shoot the rock-throwing teenagers (and also hit whoever, whatever, who cares), destroy the olive groves, or commit other atrocities.
Totally stunning, I tell you! I'm shocked, shocked, that a brutal occupation and seizure of other people's land should be described as such.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and then went on to malign the person posting the thread for using an overly inflammatory title
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=53532
would you say the same about this OP?
icymist
(15,888 posts)Legend in his own mind bassist who claimed that everything Pink Floyd wrote was only about him has something to say about what's going on in another part of the world as an authority. Give me a break.
DonCoquixote
(13,959 posts)If you do not want to be compared to Nazis, stop killing people because they are of an ethnic group you deem inferior.
Waters condemns everyone, even himself, which is why even though a Pink Floyd reunion tour would bring in millions, his former frontman won't even go near him (even though Gilmour's sad solo career is more than enough to show who the genius of Pink Floyd is.)
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)Israel does not "kill people because they are of an ethnic group they deem inferior". This is a two-way conflict, never forget that. The military operations Israel conducts are not done out of notions of racial superiority, but in countering a very real threat posed by extremists such as Hamas. Now, I'm sure your immediate response to the preceding statement will be to cite statistics and incidents from the Gaza war regarding civillians killed during operations, but your comment is not implying civillians caught in the crossfire or mistakenly targeted, it's implying deliberate killing on the basis of their ethnicity. That is not the case.
Current Israeli policy is wrong-headed, but it is by no objective means comparable to Nazism. That doesn't mean there's nothing to condemn, but try to keep things in perspective. Israel has very real concerns about security. That does not automatically make the hardship caused by occupation policies and military operations okay, but it does make things a lot less black and white.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)rebel against being crowded into modern day ghettos.
Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)good rebellion.
Alittleliberal
(528 posts)I mean it gets the point across.
Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)sometimes, i'm surprised there isn't alot of support for boko harem here on du. after all, they use to same tactics.
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)or are you dripping sarcasm?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)None of the Arab countries treat the Palestinians as equals, and they're kept in camps too. Israel doesnt call for the destruction of the Palestinians either. Nor do they round them up and kill them like the Nazis.
The Palestinians could have peace and a country if they wanted one. The deal Pres Clinton set up gave them almost all of their demands and Arafat still turned it down. The Palestinians are the Tea Party of the Middle East; they want all their demands and refuse to give in on anything.
Archae
(47,245 posts)Part of Jordan itself, but the Palestinians tried to take over.
Combine this with the horrendous corruption, brutality and flat-out anti-everything Jew that the radical Palestinians openly espouse.
Is it any wonder Israel doesn't trust them?
Or quite frankly ANY Arab country?
But I guess it's the usual, "Israel can do nothing right, Palestinians are all angelic beings who can do nothing wrong." 
7962
(11,841 posts)Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)YOu know. . .the refugee camps are in Arab lands too. Why don't their Arab brothers do things to improve the lives of the refugees?
Or is keeping them in squalid conditions useful for world-wide anti-Israel and anti-Jewish propaganda. "Look what Israel is doing to the poor Palestinians. . .yes their refugee camps are in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia and yes, those countries do nothing to improve the lives of the Palestinians there. . .but it's all Israel's fault."
7962
(11,841 posts)Its like a "thing" with so many people; as soon as they reach some sort of popular status they have to start the anti-Israel BS.
Certainly Israel has made a few mistakes over the years, but peace wouldve been achieved decades ago if the Palestinians had agreed to any of the dozens of agreements put in front of them.
mallard
(569 posts)... you're another loyalist who doesn't see land grabbing occupation for what it is and doesn't want anyone else to get it either.
It's OK to outright blame the displaced original population for fighting back. It's OK to see it all as THEIR fault. That's not artifice, or tribal thought, just an open-minded opinion from any ol' corner of freedom-loving America.
Be right by demoralizing all attempts to criticize. Claim vicitimhood whenever possible. Keep up the pressure. The pro Israel drone is far more contrived.
Waters has violated a strictly enforced taboo. Let's face it. He's in trouble for upsetting the wrong people, not for being in the wrong.
7962
(11,841 posts)All you hear is criticism of Israel. What UN resolutions are ever passed against the Palestinians? Read the posts above mine. They point out what you never hear; the palestinians are not welcome in the Arab nations either because all they do is disrupt. Jordan has them in camps. LEbanon; same thing. Meanwhile, its supposed to be OK for them to lob missiles into Israel EVERY day. It ok for them to intentionally target civilians and children. Because "they dont have tanks and planes" is the usual excuse. Its ok to continue to demand the complete destruction of Israel.
The fact is, there will never be peace between the 2 not because of Israel, but because of the Palestinians. They've had a myriad of chances and they turn it down. Arafat, the hero, turned down a deal that gave them 95% of what they wanted. Why havent any of the Arab countries offered to supply some land for a country?
Arabs live and work in Israel and have for decades.
The old axiom still remains true: If the Palestinians put down their weapons, there will be peace. If Israel puts down their weapons, there will be no Israel.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)My opinion is that is exactly their long term goal. All you need to do is look at past and present maps to see that the territory is being sliced and diced into smaller and smaller chunks, and squeezed to make it as inhospitable as possible. Throw in water and medicine restrictions, restricted travel, and the occasional shooting-fish-in-a-barrel type "war", and it is hard to come to any other conclusion.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)with Palestinian lands, like our Indian reservations, shrinking rapidly. 
mallard
(569 posts)... their obvious plight without nationality, and especially as to the cause of their radicalization. US blocking of any meaningful UN action and Israel's failure to follow through on long-standing resolutions favoring the Palestinian side do perhaps lend weight to your lopsided version of fair judgement prevailing, blaming everything on the others while your own side enjoys all the meaningful advantages ... except for having any real honest moral integrity. Arafat messed up so to heck with the six million people he was supposed to represent.
This moral superior, group-think attitude 'helps' drive otherwise good people to violence, too, for having no other options available to rectify the historical abuse. You don't feel obligated to engage people you've already so thoroughly condemned, but do need to remind others the condemnation is only fair.
A near total blockade of Gaza is brutal collective punishment you must apparently find 'suitable', not something you'd want to have considered disturbing. It's their own fault. They are just bad people is what you're saying outright.
The taboo is on making such generalizations of the ilk ardently supporting the Jewish state, with an open invitation to go live there themselves any time they simply like.
Yes, Israel could steal ALL the land. That's indeed quite true. They could even just slaughter the Palestinians instead of carrying on making life for them so difficult they'll give up on trying to get justice.
7962
(11,841 posts)But look at the history of "negotiations". Every time Israel offers any kind of concession, the Palestinians claim victory and continue with their attacks. They view any "give" as weakness and continue to throw missiles every day. Certainly there are Palestinians who wish that would stop, but if they speak out they are ostracized or worse. Then again, when given the chance to elect their own leadership, they elect Hamas. If you elect people whose goal is the destruction of Israel, how seriously do you think Israel will negotiate with them? And what about my other points? Where are the offers of land from Arab countries? Why is it only Israel who is supposed to give land for a country? Why do all the neighboring Arab countries keep the Palestinians in camps? The 'outrage" is almost always focused on Israel.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)But there are plenty of Israelis calling for the destruction of the Palestinians.
You just don't see it in the news.
Golda even refused to acknowledge that they exist.
7962
(11,841 posts)You must not know the context of Meir's statement. She was merely repeating the fact that the "Palestinians" are no more than any other Arabs. There never was a "Palestine" that was taken from them. They have just as much claim to Jordan as they do to Israel. "Palestine" was never more than a region of the middle east; and it included Jordan. So why doesnt Jordan offer land as part of a Palestinian state?? Or any other Arab country bordering them?
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)They don't exist. So you can do whatever you want to them.
Absolutely disgusting.
7962
(11,841 posts)You should try "reading comprehension". You may not like my statements, but you also cannot show that they are wrong. You simply have a different opinion, so you insult me. You'd do well over in the Snowden threads!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It's a hard core right wing police state complete with checkpoints.
They use the techniques of the SS including the really cute bit where you search a place then leave and wait for 45 minutes and hit it again hoping the person you were after has come out of their hidey hole assuming the coast was clear.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)Not eugenics, death camps, slave labor, and trying to take over Europe. No, checkpoints were their signature identifying trait, their most diabolical innovation in evil.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)....claiming they were defending against terrorism. The whole, "We have a right to defend ourselves" argument.
They are using the right wing playbook we saw here during the Bush Years.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)They are known for the holocaust and also the police state. There are plenty of references to the Nazis that refer to the police state and not the holocaust. For example, the "soup Nazi".
In the article, Waters talks about Germany in the 1930s. That was pre-war, pre-holocaust, so he was referring to the police state and legal repression of Jews and other groups, comparing it to the treatment of Arabs in Israel. Not a great comparison, in my opinion, for a number of reasons, but also not anti-semitic as some people are claiming.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)for de facto annexation of the West Bank through settlement encroachment and military occupation. It has already made Gaza a ghetto. Those are its "security" concerns.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Wasn't Fox News, was it?
No, I have been saying EXACTLY what Roger Waters said to myself for quite a long time.
Palestinians are often thrown out of where they live, because they are Palestinians, and Israelis want to build more settlements.
I wonder how these settlements are battling against Hamas extremists?
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)are well aware of the real situation and can see through the bullshit "security" talking points that are so often touted.
Israel is the world's fourth or fifth most powerful nuclear power has brutally occupied her neighbors for decades and its treatment of the Palestinians simply cannot be apologized for any more.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)Israel's nuclear armament and peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan have effectively ended the threat of the sort of invasion it faced in the first half of its history, but there remains a threat to its people in terrorist attacks originating in the West Bank and Gaza. You're completely dismissing a major factor in the perpetuation of the conflict in your zeal to heap all fault upon Israel. The occupation isn't pleasant, but given the prevalence of Palestinian extremism, it is unreasonable to expect Israel to end it.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)You can't take people's land, livelihood and homes and expect them to love you for it.
Come on.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There was conflict before the occupation. And there was even more extremism.
In fact, the PLO was founded before the West Bank and Gaza were occupied by Israel.
By the way, from 1948-1967, the West Bank and Gaza were occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)Occupation as the source of the conflict is about land, rights, and conversely, dispossession.
You bet your PLO, and I'll raise you the Sturn and Irgun.
These people had it taken from them. And it wasn't a slow assimilation.
National sovereignty was declared, and what these people had was expropriated.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)There is no silver bullet that will end all conflict once and for all. It's a tangled web forged by a hundred years of misunderstandings, short-sightedness, and grievances.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I cannot believe that I am seeing posts like this.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)I agree with Water's take on Israeli aggression. But all the members contributed to the greatness of Pink Floyd, not just Waters.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)It's absolutely amazing. The guitar work is his best ever and all the DVDs he's done in the last 10 years are fantastic. In regards to Roger his Perfect Sense live DVD is amazing but after that he's gotten a touch too much into the classical thing. Maybe it has something to do with his dislike of Andrew Lloyd Webber. I love Roger's opinionated self though. I admire his outspokenness.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Theres a reason for the criticism of Israel and its not prejudicial. It's just seeing the facts. The right wingers running Israel need to put on their big boy pants and stop whining about unfair treatment. How about seeking peace.
PFunk
(876 posts)Thou it now It looks more like apartheid era south africa. Still I'll back him on this one.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)He even wrote a book about it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)He said: "Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew."
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Jimmy Carter: Israel's 'apartheid' policies worse than South Africa's
Former president stands by new book despite criticism, says it is meant to stimulate debate in U.S.
By Haaretz Service | Dec. 11, 2006 | 12:00 AM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/jimmy-carter-israel-s-apartheid-policies-worse-than-south-africa-s-1.206865
Former U.S. president Jimmy Carter said in remarks broadcast Monday that Israeli policy in the West Bank represented instances of apartheid worse even that those that once held sway in South Africa.
Carter's comments were broadcast on Israel Radio, which played a tape of an interview with the ex-president, but did not specify to whom Carter was speaking. But has made similar remarks in recent interviews, such as one to CBC television.
"When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank, and connects the 200-or-so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road, or in many cases even crossing the road, this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa."
Carter said his new book, "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" was meant to spark U.S. discussion of Israeli policies. "The hope is that my book will at least stimulate a debate, which has not existed in this country. There's never been any debate on this issue, of any significance."
(snip)
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Peace-Apartheid-Jimmy-Carter/dp/0743285034
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And a ton more
https://www.google.com/search?q=Jimmy+carter%2C+israeli+apartheid&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
fficial&client=firefox-aoberliner
(58,724 posts)Most of the people that seem to be critical have not read the book, or they haven’t referred to anything inside Palestine, and the book is not written about Israel at all. I know that Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/2006/12/12
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Former U.S. president Jimmy Carter said in remarks broadcast Monday that Israeli policy in the West Bank represented instances of apartheid worse even that those that once held sway in South Africa.
Carter's comments were broadcast on Israel Radio, which played a tape of an interview with the ex-president, but did not specify to whom Carter was speaking. But has made similar remarks in recent interviews, such as one to CBC television.
"When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank, and connects the 200-or-so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road, or in many cases even crossing the road, this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa."
Carter said his new book, "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" was meant to spark U.S. discussion of Israeli policies. "The hope is that my book will at least stimulate a debate, which has not existed in this country. There's never been any debate on this issue, of any significance."
The book has sparked strong criticism from Jewish figures in the United States. Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, has said that some comments from the former president border on anti-Semitism.
"When you think about the charge that he has made that the Jewish people control the means of communication, it is odious," Foxman was quoted as saying last week. "If the Jews controlled the media, how come he is traveling around the country speaking about this book on talk shows?"
Carter has rejected the criticism of the book and its use of the word apartheid.
"I feel completely at ease," said Carter, about his commitment to the book, which accuses Israel of oppressing Palestinians. "I am not running for office. And I have Secret Service protection."
"The greatest commitment in my life has been trying to bring peace to Israel," Carter told the Atlanta Press Club last week.
"Israel will never have peace until they agree to withdraw [from the territories]."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/jimmy-carter-israel-s-apartheid-policies-worse-than-south-africa-s-1.206865
snip* He told NPR, “I know that Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew. And so I very carefully avoided talking about anything inside Israel.”
Given the pressure he has faced, it may be understandable that Mr. Carter says this, but he is wrong. In addition to nearly four million Palestinians living under Israeli rule in the occupied territories, another one million live inside Israel’s pre-1967 borders. These Palestinians are descendants of those who were not forced out or did not flee when Israel was created in 1948.
http://electronicintifada.net/content/palestinian-view-jimmy-carters-book/6635
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)have said the same thing. So how can you be Jewish and anti Semitic at the same time??
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)but Savage Wiener (Michael Savage) does a pretty good job.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)Roy Cohn for starters. Just like blacks can be racist toward other blacks, gays can be homophobic and women can be misogynists. Why would you think Jews were exempt?
QuestForSense
(653 posts)The truth may hurt, but semantics is always the spoon that stirs the pot. Palestinians are semites, and the symbols on the pig blimp are the ones the extremists in this world use to hide behind while they commit their atrocities. Funny how a lot of same neo-cons who've just barely finished denigrating the accomplishments of Nelson Mandela are the same ones to "take offense" to any criticism of the policies, however extreme, of the Israeli government. The Israeli government.
CSStrowbridge
(267 posts)I agree. It's more apartheid than holocaust.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)Oh, Israel managed to keep the repression knob turned down to 5 or 6 instead of cranking it up to 11? Boy, that makes me feel better.
lancer78
(1,495 posts)will be the only way that the Israeli government will be able to keep control. The Palestinians in Israel itself are reproducing at a faster rate then the jewish inhabitants. I predict in about 150 years, the state of Israel will be run by the Palestinians. Not through violence but simple demographics.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That there are so many posts like this is seriously mind-boggling.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)Invading force from Europe lands on non-European lands, militarily conquers it, subjugates the existing population and takes their lands, strips them of legal rights, and herds them into permanent encampments where they are forced to live in substandard conditions and are generally denied basic human rights. Without judgement, it's what happened in South Africa. It's what happened in Israel. And it's what the U.S. did to the Native American populations. Those situations ARE comparable.
I'm not a supporter of Israel, and I do tend to think that some of their activities can be reminiscent of things done by the Germans in WW2, but direct comparisons between Israel and the Nazi's tend to be over the top. Comparisons between Israel and the apartheid South African government, on the other hand, are spot on.
Remember, Nelson Mandela was the co-founder of an organization (Spear of the Nation) that once set off 57 bombs in a single day, and which killed hundreds and injured thousands during its existence. He, and they, were regarded as terrorists by many governments around the world. Today Mandela is almost universally hailed as a hero who helped to bring freedom to his people, toppled a cruel government, and united a divided nation into one land where EVERYONE had the same rights.
Some day, at some point, the Palestinians will find their Mandela. When that happens, Israel is going to have a real problem on their hands.
DontTreadOnMe
(2,442 posts)"The parallels with what went on in the 1930s in Germany are so crushingly obvious,"
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Is this for real?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)comment got hidden at DU?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)This post is putrid Jew- baiting and bigotry.
DontTreadOnMe
(2,442 posts)the reactions against Roger Waters are quite obvious. He opens up the discussion about the poor treatment of the Palestinians from Israel -- and the Zionists are whining.
4dsc
(5,787 posts)Yes its the zionist who are to blame for the poor treatment of the original owners of Palestine.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)The ones that called Waters anti-semitic. It wasn't some general criticism of all Rabbis.
This is a good example of being too quick to label someone anti-semitic for criticizing government policy.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)compared a government to Nazi Germany, what percent of those would be criticisms of Israel?
I would guess 85% with another 10% towards our own political system.
John Kerry got excoriated here for comparing Assad to Hitler for using poison gas, but people don't blink at comparing a less oppressive state like Israel to the Nazis.
To me, it's indisputable that some of that is animus towards Jews, or the desire to use the Nazi comparison as a way of scoring points against Jews by using their own historical oppression against them.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)But even so, that's not evidence of anti-semitism. Israel is controversial, and so there are a lot of discussions about it. That leads to a lot of hyperbolic analogies. People don't bother comparing Sudan to Nazi Germany, because nobody defends the Sudanese government. There were probably a spike of China/Nazi analogies and Russia/Nazi analogies during the Snowden thing.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)are more than capable of criticizing those regimes using their own records.
Obama and Kerry got bashed here for comparing Baathist Syria to Nazi Germany.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I think it is right to hold Obama and Kerry to a different standard than Roger Waters. I don't know the context of the Nazi/Syria comparison, so I can't really comment, except to say that in general I don't think it's wise for the president or secretary of state to be making Nazi comparisons. If they compared Israel to Nazi Germany I'm sure they would also get bashed.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Those making the Israel=Nazi Germany are attempting to appropriate Jewish history in order to use it against Jews.
Much like the Tea Party uses slavery rhetoric against Obama.
Are they necessarily being explicitly racist? Maybe not. But it's repellant nonetheless.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Whether it's accurate or not, that's an above-belt charge.
I see what you are saying with the slavery/Obama thing, but I don't think it's the same thing. First of all, some slavery rhetoric against Obama is not actually racist, it's just the Ayn Rand people who actually believe that taxation and social programs are tantamount to slavery. That's nuts, but it's not racist.
Second, there's plenty of other evidence to suggest that there is racism underpinning some of the opposition to Obama. With Israel, at least among DUers, that's not the case. I've never seen any criticism of Jewish people or the Isreali people, or the Jewish religion, or anything like that. It's all criticism of Israeli government policy. A lot of it is along the same lines that people criticize American foreign policy. In both cases it sometimes slips into hyperbole. But accusations of bigotry and anti-semitism are out of place.
If Isreal had nothing to do with Judaism, but it was still located in the same place, with the same policies, do you think that there would be any less criticism and any less hyperbole?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Compare how China's treatment of indigenous cultures and peoples is treated here, at the UN etc.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)You nailed it down. At DU it's about Israeli policy and nothing else.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)accusations of bigotry? I can't think of any. China? No. You can say all the horrible things you want about the Chinese government. How about Sudan or Congo or anywhere else in Africa? I don't think anyone will call you racist there. Iran? Saudi Arabia? UAE? Cuba? Venezuela? I can't think of any.
But someone makes a hyperbolic criticism of Israel, and all of a sudden there are accusations anti-semitism flying all over the place.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Extreme hyperbole on both sides tends to show that there's something besides policy being debated.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I consider accusations of anti-semitism to be more hyperbolic and more slanderous than accusations of being a neo-con.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Maybe they don't mean to be racist, but doesn't change the ugliness of the analogy.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)" that" is the way "You" see it. And nothing more. Dan Tex has politely explained to you through numerous posts why it may not be so but in the end all that matters to "you" is how "you" see it. He's wasting his analogies on you as you do a global comparison list to suit your own ends.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)go west young man
(4,856 posts)from Bill O'Reilly. Thanks for the last word mr. reasonable.
MoreGOPoop
(417 posts)I don't see Roger as anti-semitic, more like anti-walls. His father
was killed fighting Nazis.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)And got killed.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)That if you get drafted, your death in war means less than someone who enlisted?
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Is probably anti-semitic.
1000words
(7,051 posts)As well as a hammer and sickle symbol and corporate logos.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)1000words
(7,051 posts)Which has always been Waters' MO.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Doing it just makes him kind of a jerk.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Still, a brilliant artist with the right to address any "grievance" he sees fit.
CSStrowbridge
(267 posts)If you are attacking different religions and other tools of oppression, then it is not Antisemitic.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I'm not following your post otherwise.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Kurska
(5,739 posts)Religions can be used as tools of oppression, but an outright categorization of a faith followed by millions of people as a general tool of oppression is insulting.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)If oppression is built into a faith's holy books and teachings then it's a completely accurate statement to make regardless of how many people follow that religion. A number of religions have outright oppression of women right there in their holy books for example.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Tell me how reform Judaism is oppressing, I contend you don't know the first thing about the diversity that makes us the Jewish religion and are supremely unqualified to give such sweeping pronouncements.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)If we are talking about the roots of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. then Reform Judaism is irrelevant.
On the specifics of Reform Judaism, I agree that this belief system is far more progressive than most. But do they still operate on the ideas that Israel is a land that was given to the Jews by God, and that the Torah is the a holy book that is the result of divine inspiration, do they not? At least that is my understanding. Two concepts that Israel has used as tools of oppression multiple times throughout history. Being on the receiving end of that sort of religious inspired violence and oppression more often than not doesn't mean their holy books are not deeply flaws works that may have at least been partly created to elevate one group of people over another.
2banon
(7,321 posts)maintain dominance/power and control over the masses. period. eom
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)If the answer is no, Judaism is a tool for oppression. (As is Christianity and Islam.)
Kurska
(5,739 posts)NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)Kurska
(5,739 posts)Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)...why do so called liberals/progressives accept that as a defense, yet when someone on the right says, it is a joke and definitely proves s/he is a racist (fill-in-the-blank)?
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)but against Zionism, and not be a racist. But if you are a black racist, but claim a black friend, you are still a racist.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)Though some anti-Zionism is certainly anti-Semitic, Zionism is a political ideology, like socialism.
seattledo
(295 posts)Ugh. His beliefs are obvious.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Anyone who has been to a Waters/Floyd show knows the central concept to the performance is a scathing rebuke/rejection of just about every issue we ourselves criticize, right here on DU.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)His friends are so surprised he hasn't been murdered.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)There's plenty to criticize about Israeli policies, but to equate them to those of the nazis is abhorrent. The comparison has no basis whatsoever. To anyone stuck in the tunnel vision that this subject tends to produce, take a step back and think: Nazi Germany embraced ideology rooted in ethnic supremecism, started war with countries who displayed no hostility towards them, and then attempted to exterminate the populations of those countries, all as a matter of official policy. At the height of its atrocities, Nazi Germany killed more people in a DAY than have died in 80 years of this conflict on both sides.
It would be comforting to believe that this guy is just a Glenn Beck-style idiot who compares everything to nazis, but given his history I suspect something much nastier is at play. This is not criticism of Israel, this is demonization.
lancer78
(1,495 posts)showing the progression of the settlements and then get back to me. The Nazis took the jews property and land first. They took so much property and land that it is figured that the Nazis were able to fund 40% of their war effort with just the land and property taken from the jews.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)The settlers are a bunch of religious extremists and thugs who have bullied and strongarmed their way into disproportionate influence. They are among the most vexing obstacles to peace. They're so extreme that they consider Netanyahu to be a traitor, and have basically proclaimed themselves loyal to the land, not the state of Israel. Most Israelis dislike them, but are reluctant to move against them both because of their tendency to riot when they don't get their way and the fact that uprooting them would mean bringing the psychos into Israel itself. It's hesitance to rip off that bandaid that allows them to have their way when they account for only a small portion of Israel's population.
Sorry to have gone off on a tangent like that, I just want to make clear that I have little sympathy for the settlers. When I say that I find the comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany vulgar, that is not an automatic endorsement of all aspects of Israeli policy, but a recognition of just how evil the Nazi regime was, and how inappropriate the comparison is.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Do some research and get back to us. You obviously haven't listened to his music or read his lyrics.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)Whether it's rock, rap, pop, classical, or country, music makes me grind my teeth. His celebrity status does not affect how I judge his comments.
marble falls
(71,919 posts)the only difference is the scope and numbers. And if given enough time the pursuit of a greater Israel will match the numbers of dead.
Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel
by Max Blumenthal
Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel Cover
ISBN13: 9781568586342
ISBN10: 1568586345
Synopses & Reviews
Publisher Comments:
In Goliath, New York Times bestselling author Max Blumenthal takes us on a journey through the badlands and high roads of Israel-Palestine, painting a startling portrait of Israeli society under the siege of increasingly authoritarian politics as the occupation of the Palestinians deepens.
Beginning with the national elections carried out during Israel's war on Gaza in 2008-09, which brought into power the country's most right-wing government to date, Blumenthal tells the story of Israel in the wake of the collapse of the Oslo peace process.
As Blumenthal reveals, Israel has become a country where right-wing leaders like Avigdor Lieberman and Bibi Netanyahu are sacrificing democracy on the altar of their power politics; where the loyal opposition largely and passively stands aside and watches the organized assault on civil liberties; where state-funded Orthodox rabbis publish books that provide instructions on how and when to kill Gentiles; where half of Jewish youth declare their refusal to sit in a classroom with an Arab; and where mob violence targets Palestinians and African asylum seekers scapegoated by leading government officials as "demographic threats."
Immersing himself like few other journalists inside the world of hardline political leaders and movements, Blumenthal interviews the demagogues and divas in their homes, in the Knesset, and in the watering holes where their young acolytes hang out, and speaks with those political leaders behind the organized assault on civil liberties. As his journey deepens, he painstakingly reports on the occupied Palestinians challenging schemes of demographic separation through unarmed protest. He talks at length to the leaders and youth of Palestinian society inside Israel now targeted by security service dragnets and legislation suppressing their speech, and provides in-depth reporting on the small band of Jewish Israeli dissidents who have shaken off a conformist mindset that permeates the media, schools, and the military.
Through his far-ranging travels, Blumenthal illuminates the present by uncovering the ghosts of the past — the histories of Palestinian neighborhoods and villages now gone and forgotten; how that history has set the stage for the current crisis of Israeli society; and how the Holocaust has been turned into justification for occupation.
Review:
“Brash, gritty, personal and close to the ground, this is a report from an Israel and a Palestine we seldom see in the mainstream media. The sharp-edged scenes and portraits in this disturbing book shows why the chances for lasting peace in the region have gone from bad to worse.” Adam Hochschild
Review:
"It is about time someone wrote this book. Max Blumenthal has done a scrupulous and gripping job of portraying the reality of occupation, its terrors, its fears and its injustice. Anyone who thinks he knows what is happening in Israel and its occupied territories will think again after reading this great work." Charles Glass
Review:
"Armed with a critic's eye and a sharp pen, Blumenthal sets out to document what he regards as the fulfillment of Yeshayahu Leibowitz's darkest prophecy regarding the Israeli occupation. Exposure to the impressions from his journey through the Land of Israel-Palestine might be outrageous, unsettling, often heart wrenching. But especially those who fear for the image of this land would be well advised to respond to the challenge and to deal with his flowing descriptions of the struggles he witnessed and of the brave souls he met in one of the most divided and conflict-ridden places in the world." Akiva Eldar
Review:
"Israel defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state; but it is also, and no less definingly, a racist state. In this pioneering work, a blend of tough, contemporary reportages and their explanatory historical background, Max Blumenthal lays bare in rich and riveting detail the full, shocking scope and virulence of a cancer, both institutional and popular, which, unchecked, will surely do more to destroy Israel from within than its enemies — essentially of its own racist/colonialist making too — from without." David Hirst
Synopsis:
Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel is New York Times best-selling author Max Blumenthal's devastating journey through Israel and an anatomy of the extremist takeover of a nation. What Blumenthal finds is a country overrun by extremists, where the Jewish Right has hijacked constitutional protections for both minorities and those in the majority who dissent. Blumenthal investigates the roots of these cultural and political shifts, as well as the malign American right-wing funders who are bankrolling Israeli extremism. He finds that the country US officials regard as the only foothold of democracy in the Middle East — with which President Obama has said “[our] bond is unbreakable” — is teetering on the edge of authoritarianism.
Informed by intensive on-the-ground reporting, Goliath paints a vivid portrait of a society turning its back on democracy and uncovers the factors (political, demographic, and psychological) that have transformed a nation.
About the Author
Max Blumenthal is an award-winning journalist and bestselling author whose articles and video documentaries have appeared in The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Daily Beast, The Nation, The Guardian, The Independent Film Channel, The Huffington Post, Salon.com, Al Jazeera English and many other publications. His book, Republican Gomorrah: Inside The Movement That Shattered The Party, was a New York Times and Los Angeles Times bestseller. He blogs at maxblumenthal.co
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)No matter the source.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)writings. Thanks for your post.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It is chilling reading these comments.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I'm absolutely amazed that you are able to type as little as you can, over and over, in this thread without really typing anything.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)For many of us, all we need to know and see is right here in some of these posts. They're telling quite the story. That you need to see more to learn is your problem.
ReRe
(12,189 posts)... endless bibliography. Thanks, marble! 
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and millions of dead people, just the same.
NuttyFluffers
(6,811 posts)it was a remarkable interview, nuanced, informed, self-aware, and more than a touch lamenting. i highly recommend it if you are on the fence about reading this new book. i look forward to it on my reading list.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)Since even people in Israel have compared the Israeli military to Nazi's. people with numbers on their arms.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)There are a lot of groups who are against eating pork. Pink Floyd's use of flying pigs didn't have a religious connotation in the past, just about wealth and power. I think the whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. Or whatever.
1000words
(7,051 posts)At least when I saw them.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 14, 2013, 10:34 PM - Edit history (1)
Rastafari movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_restrictions_on_the_consumption_of_pork
The pig (pork) reference is being seized on for something else in this story, IMHO.
And isn't that the coolest flag?
1000words
(7,051 posts)The smoky haze wafting throughout the place tells me others were, as well.
P.S. Yes, that is a great flag
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)It was a great concert, I saw in 2010.
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)anti-semitism has never had anything to do with it.
ReRe
(12,189 posts)... I love pork. Like it better than beef (unless it's a slab of medium-rare prime rib, which makes my mouth water typing these words.) 
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)"Pigs on the Wing" is a two-part song by progressive rock band Pink Floyd from their 1977 concept album Animals, starting and wrapping up the album.[1] According to various interviews, it was written by Roger Waters as a declaration of love to his new wife Lady Carolyne Christie. This song is significantly different from the other three songs on the album, "Dogs", "Pigs", and "Sheep" in that the other songs are dark, whereas this one is lighter-themed.[1]
According to Nick Mason, and confirmed by Waters, it is a love song directed towards Waters' new wife at the time, Carolyne. She was really the only one Roger's friends had ever met who could hold her own in an argument with him; according to Mason you had to be very good with semantics to win an argument against him. Waters wrote the song because that's all he had been looking for all along: someone who could stand up to him, an equal. Carolyne, later noted by Waters, could not understand the strength, and consequently, the beauty he saw in her. The former piece of the song conveys a theme of despondency and isolation imposed upon the individual resulting from the societal pressures which work to separate the masses, a theme developed in the proceeding track, "Dogs". Waters conveys a hopeful theme in the latter portion of the song, illustrating the strength and emotional safety as a result of unity among individuals, a safety Waters felt quickly upon meeting Carolyne.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigs_on_the_Wing
The photoshoot for the Animals album cover was shot at Battersea Power Station in south London using an air balloon pig tethered to one of the chimneys. I can remember the hue and cry when it became unleashed and floated off south east eventually to be recovered in Kent.
I'd thought Pigs on the Wing was an allusion with "when pigs can fly" 
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)The interview
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/12/06/an-interview-with-pink-floyds-roger-waters/
The reaction
ADL sadly concludes that Roger Waters is an anti-Semite
http://www.timesofisrael.com/adl-sadly-concludes-that-roger-waters-is-an-anti-semite/
ReRe
(12,189 posts)... the concept of a First Amendment like ours. They just can't learn how to respectfully disagree with those who disagree with them, nor respect anyone else's religion, either at home or in the effing world.
Thanks, Jesus, for linking the Facebook interview! 
sendero
(28,552 posts)... when someone calls someone else a "murderer" and the best retort that someone can come up with is "anti-semite".
I've said it before and I will say it again, there are now no good guys in the Middle East conflict, a pox on both their houses.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Lets not lose sight that there a millions of good guy innocent civilians just trying to live their lives.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... but on the other hand all Americans will in some measure be held accountable for what Bush did, and Israelis accountable for their right-wing government.
starroute
(12,977 posts)Boteach is known for his flamboyance and self-promotion. In a comment he later described as only having been sarcastic, he was reported as saying "God gave 10 commandments at Sinai, and the 11th commandment, which they expunged but which has come down orally, is 'Thou shalt do anything for publicity and recognition.'"
Boteach is strongly supportive of Israel, and critical of American policy towards the country. Boteach has argued that the Obama administration is "bullying" Israel, arguing that U.S. Middle Eastern policy is "scandalous" and "disgusting". He is also supportive of Israeli settlements, including the Hebron settlement, the residents of which he characterizes as marked by a particular "warmth, friendliness and hospitality" and views as being "liberated from hatred".
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)His brother Bar-Kochba Botach runs bo-tach a arms supplier and his nephew Efraim Diveroli was convicted of selling bunk ammo to the US Military for use in the war in Afghanistan.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)If someone made such a statement in my presence I would say I agree. However when you compare what Israel is doing to the extermination of 6,000,000 people is when it becomes anti-semitism.
There is no action in the history of the world that compares to the Holocaust.
CrawlingChaos
(1,893 posts)It will be too late for the dead at that point, but oh well, sucks to be them, right?
Maybe it's morally wrong to hurl the anti-Semitism charge at those who speak out against the horror?
EX500rider
(12,581 posts)Which at current levels of Palestinian population growth would be.........never?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Jaw-dropping comments.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)killed off. They're brutalized, oppressed, and disenfranchised, but comments like that are dissociated from reality.
cali
(114,904 posts)population is, as it has done for the past several decades, expanding.
Maybe it's insane to talk of the genocide of a people when that population is growing rather than contracting. this is not rocket science, honey. It's 1st grade math.
Now if you and the esteemed Mr. waters wish to discuss the oppression of the Palestinians by the Israelis- the occupation and cruel treatment of Gazans, I'm in. Bullshit about genocide? Forget it.
CrawlingChaos
(1,893 posts)I was commenting on the absurdity and offensiveness of suggesting that until we hit a particular body count, it is somehow anti-Semitic to correctly characterize what is being done to the Palestinians. Talk about bullshit. But as can be seen in this very thread, that tactic isn't working so well anymore.
And if you don't like Roger Waters, how about Ilan Pappe:
"Not long ago, I claimed that Israel is employing genocidal policies in the Gaza Strip. I hesitated before using this very charged term and yet decided to adopt it. The responses I received indicated unease in using such a term. I rethought the term for a while, but concluded with even stronger conviction: it is the only appropriate way to describe what the Israeli army is doing in the Gaza Strip."
http://www.countercurrents.org/pappe280108.htm
840high
(17,196 posts)chuckstevens
(1,201 posts)The Gaza Strip = The Warsaw Ghetto.
Just because one opposes the actions of the Israeli government doesn't make one an anti-Semite. For the records, Prime Minister Benjamin N has been as disrespectful to President Obama as the Tea Party Republicans. Oh Yea, I went there!
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)I suggest you do some historical research.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)What was the Jewish body equivalent to Hamas that officially ruled the Warsaw Ghetto? Where are the trains to the Israeli version of Auschwitz leading out of Gaza?
Derp.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Judenrat and the Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I don't recall stories about the Judenrat taking up arms against the Wehrmacht, or blowing up buses of German civilians for that matter.
The need for people to seize upon obviously inapplicable analogies to the Nazis indicates a desire to rub Jews' faces in the Holocaust. It's certainly not based on anything logical or enlightened.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Did you ask, "What was the Jewish body equivalent to Hamas that officially ruled the Warsaw Ghetto?"
If you feel the need to qualify this question after the fact, that's on you.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)in charge of the Warsaw Ghetto.
That's the entire point.
postatomic
(1,771 posts)Usually at the beginning of every episode they would show someone die and that person would end up in the family morgue.
On this particular episode these two guys were filling Sex Dolls with helium for a porn convention. They put all the Sex Dolls in the bed of a truck with a net over it so they'd stay in place.
(switch) Woman is in car listening to a Religious Radio Show. The net that was holding the inflated Sex Dolls breaks and they start floating in the air. The woman in the car sees the Sex Dolls and mistakes them as Angels and some type of 'religious sign' and stops her car and gets out to look at the "angels". She is struck by another vehicle and dies.
I really liked that episode.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)I never really liked the show, but I saw that intro once, and found it hilarious. I thought the woman, however, was seeing it as "The Rapture"....
dawn frenzy adams
(429 posts)The West took the cowards way out when they took the problem created by Nazi Germany- and laid it at the feet of Palestinians. They did it because there is no Third World or developing nation they respect. So why not steal their land and take their resources? Why not take an entire nation and give it to another people? Israel may have a right to exist; but not in Palestine.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Absolutely stunning comments.
lostincalifornia
(5,349 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)boomersense
(147 posts)for not being afraid. This may cost you a trip to Heaven, but...oh, well...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)This is a sentiment you agree with?
boomersense
(147 posts)we make our voyages. More will understand by the end of next year when Iran is foolishly attempted.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I know I am.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Including the assertions of Waters' stage prop as evidence of anti-semitism
DavidDvorkin
(20,589 posts)
abq e streeter
(7,658 posts)Sickening but not the least bit unexpected.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But I guess standards are easier to carry if you set them down regularly.
Hey - guess which poster here in this thread participates in an anti-Arab hate site forum? You get three guesses!
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but who's counting besides as we're being told here Islamophobia can easily be conflated with antiArabism
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Was always a hoot to poke in and see what naughty nicknames they'd given DU'ers. I was sad that I never got one.
But then, what denigrating nickname can you give a guy who names himself after this thing:
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but for some reason it's not available for public view anymore either, you must be a registered member of that forum to view that section
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Might be they found a new rock to lurk under, but whatever.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts) geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)And I say this as someone who 'a convinced Israel is an apartheid state.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I know we don't always see eye-to-eye on Israeli/Palestinian issues, but I am glad we are on the same page here. I appreciate your comments.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Criticism of Israel, even over-the-top and hyperbolic criticism, isn't anti-semitism. It's criticism of a government and it's policies.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and using explicitly Jewish-themed criticism, it's gone beyond policy.
To put it another way, only a crude, witless hack feels it necessary to use Nazi Germany--out of all of the oppressive regimes in world history--as a comparison point for Israel.
Heck, point at the US treatment of Native Americans and you're a lot closer than the Nazi comparison. South Africa, China in Tibet, etc.
Nazis are famous for one thing: exterminating Jews.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I agree, the comparison of the holocaust to Israel is dumb and inappropriate, and South Africa would have been a much better choice. But hyperbolic comparisons to Nazi Germany are a dime a dozen. There's nothing anti-semitic about it. Could he have been trying to be provocative, trying to argue that the oppressed have become the oppressors? Maybe, maybe not, but that's still not anti-semitic.
Comparing what he said to Stormfront is also hyperbolic. Because actual racists say things like "____ are inferior" and "____ should be punished" and so on.
As far as I can tell, Waters's criticisms were purely aimed at the policies of Israel. If he said or implied something about how Jews are bad people, that would be different. But he didn't. Stormfront is overtly and proudly racist. Nothing that either Waters said or any of the reponses from DUers I've seen come close to that.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)about some of the responses in the thread.
I do think it's at best insensitive to use the Nazi comparisons given the history--there's a reason such comparisons are explicitly banned in the I/P forum.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Okey dokey, Smokey. Thanks for letting me know.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)obedience to Israel is.
Beacool
(30,517 posts)I imagined that they would be objectionable, at the very least.
Unfortunately, it's far from unexpected.
Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)
Post removed
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)And if there is "real" anti-Semitism it isn't the fault of the anti-Semite? Bizarre.
ETA: I have heard the same type of argument from the right in regards to racism.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)until no one listens anymore and the wolf comes. Is that the fault of the wolf?
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)Little boy cries rape are no big deal until no one listens and the rapist comes. Is that the fault of the rapist?
1000words
(7,051 posts)Random
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)here. If you cry wolf when there's a wolf, people will come to your aid. If you do it repeatedly and there is no wolf, they will stop doing that. I was alluding to a fable. Fables are intended to instruct. Once upon a time, charges of ant-Semitism were hurled at anyone who publicly criticized the conduct of a Jewish organization or of Israel. Such charges, by virtue of having been made, placed the burden of proof on the accused. That's been going on for a long time and people aren't buying it anymore. Be so instructed.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)I saw exactly how callous and ignorant it was. I am well aware of the fable, but what you are missing, is this is not about one person. There are certainly those who make false allegations, but you aren't holding them responsible, but anyone who makes the accusation, but you take it further to say that when anti-Semitism happens, it is the fault of those "false allegations" and not the actual anti-Semites. Your disregard for anti-Semitism was quite obvious with your title "So what if is a an anti-Semite?" That pretty much said it all.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)I don't know, but I'll try this one more time. Quit calling people anti-Semites and other names as a means to silence their criticism or to dismiss their arguments as you just did in your last post. Doing that turns people off and gives cover to real anti-Semites, you know, the ones who want to do harm. They shouldn't be conflated with those who criticize.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)Quit saying that the ones to blame for anti-Semitism are those who make false accusations; and while you are at it, quite minimalizing anti-Semitism by saying things such as "so what if he is an anti-Semite?" To further note, I never called anyone an anti-Semite to squelch criticism or dismiss their arguments; talk about irony.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)The world's full of bigots. There's plenty of anti-gentile bigotry going on out there too. Is one worse than the other? Isn't the way the Israelis treat the Palestinians a form of anti-Semitism or is the term reserved for Jews? Do you suppose that maybe the way those folks treat each other feeds their mutual anti-Semitic animosities? I'm sorry but I don't see bigots and racists of any type as necessarily devils incarnate. There is nothing ironic in that, or anti-Semitic. And no, I'm not blaming the victims. I am suggesting there are a whole lot of people who think they're victims who aren't and that there isn't always an anti-Semite under the bed because someone doesn't like what you say or what you do.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)Basically you are saying bigotry against Jews is acceptable in some forms. It isn't. No, the way the Israelis treat Palestinians is not anti-Semitism. That term solely refers to hate and discrimination against Jews. And while there aren't anti-Semites under every bed, they certainly exist and pretending they don't or making excuses for them or claiming "what's the big deal?" only allows it to fester and continue. It is possible to be critical of Israel, the Israeli government, or individual Israeli and/or Jews and not be anti-Semitic, but there are those who couch their anti-Semitism in criticism of Israel and to ignore it, is as ignorant as to claim that any and all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. Is criticism of Obama racist? Can it be racist? The correct answers: no, yes.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Since almost every flavor of anti-Arab hate seems to mirror classic tropes levied against Jews.
For instance, a poster here on DU - one I understand that you were guardian angel for as MIRT - has more than once called Arabs "Child-sacrificing death cultists." Now, even though hte targets aren't Jews, that's pretty much verbatim the sort of hate that's been levied against Jews for all these ages.
Ever heard the term "Pallywood?" it's the assertion that Palestinian Arabs control and manipulate the global media. Not just Hollywood, like the Jews are accused of - oh no, Hollywood's small tacos according to what the Palestinians are in control of!
Maybe you've heard the Halal soup garbage. sounds a lot like the "panic" over kosher certification. The latter's a "Tax to Israel" according to its advocates, while the former is "a dhimmi tax" according to those who propagate that idea.
Ever noticed how much anti-Arab caricatures resemble anti-jewish caricatures? same beaky nose, same baggy eyes, same scraggled beard, same over-the-top-look-at-how-alien-I-am headgear, same vices and lusts. Only difference is occasionally a camel gets thrown into the anti-Arab ones while the anti-Jew ones use the Magen David.
The two strains of hate are so very similar that there's really nothing to be gained by differentiating them. Also of note is how often promulgators of anti-Arab shit that mimics anti-Jewish shit, claim to be great friends of Jews and Israel - Pam Gellar, John Hagee, several posters on DU who I think you know quite well, and the like. I can only guess that the recycling of anti-Jewish tropes to use against Arabs is knowing and intentional
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)If it can be used to mock, dilute, or otherwise minimize anti-Semitism, it seems to have a following. Anti-Semitism means "discrimination or hate toward Jews." it really is simple. It is fascinating in threads about anti-Semitism how they become about "reverse racism" (anti-gentile) or the key-jingling about anti-Arab or Islamophobia.
"Ever heard the term "Pallywood?" it's the assertion that Palestinian Arabs control and manipulate the global media."
No, I have never heard that explanation, is it unique to you?
"Ever noticed how much anti-Arab caricatures resemble anti-jewish caricatures? same beaky nose, same baggy eyes, same scraggled beard, same over-the-top-look-at-how-alien-I-am headgear, same vices and lusts. Only difference is occasionally a camel gets thrown into the anti-Arab ones while the anti-Jew ones use the Magen David."
Gee, I wonder why?
"The two strains of hate are so very similar that there's really nothing to be gained by differentiating them."
Sure, they are similar, but they are still different and the motivations are usually quite different, so yes, there is something to be gained by distinguishing them, clarity.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)When you talk about antisemitism being mocked, belittled, or diluted, pretend you're talking to someone who has, with all seriousness, been called a "Nazi" for not buying sodastream goop. Trust me, I'm not at all worried about someone, least of all you obliquely accusing me of trying to belittle antisemitism 
In fact I'm more puzzled about why you figure that including hatred of Arabs under the term would have that result. 'Cause it seems to me it would have the opposite effect, y'know, including more people who are targeted by the same tropes, images, and intents having a net impact of making it more clear what a pervasive problem it is. I mean you can't really be like "well thank goodness people are only accusing Arabs of drinking the blood of children instead of Arabs and Jews!"
In fact, and I don't want to accuse 'cause I'm not in your head... but it seems to me that the only way including one could diminish the other, is if someone believed one of the two were actually justified or even made-up. Like somehow enfolding anti-Arab hate would make antisemitism more excusable or less important?
As for the thread topic? Well, you've been on DU long enough that i had assumed you grasped the notion that sub-threads often address sub-topics or subjects brought up in an individual post.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)I am in no way concerned with you trying to explain to me what anti-Semitism is and isn't. The only thing puzzling is why the word has to be encompassing. Islamophobia certainly isn't all encompassing, now is it? I have never heard of Arabs being accused of drinking blood...did you just invent that?
The way it diminishes the other is obvious, you have demonstrated as have any others who have ever tried to re-define the word. The most common one: Arabs can't be anti-Semites because they are Semites. That 'excuse' is trotted out to side-step the discussion of Jew-hate.
ETA: Good, I think I got in before another response. I have mostly ignored your misdirection techniques, but what in the Sam Hill does being called a Nazi for not buying sodastream have to do with the price of eggs?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Same tropes, same images, same accusations, same intent, and often the same sources. You can ad lib one for the other and nothing would be lost or confused. Anti-Arab hate is just antisemitism with some white-out here and there.
Except it's not a re-definition. Nothing is changed. Nothing is taken away, nothing is belittled or damaged. It's an acknowledgement that the same tropes, arguments, and accusations are used in attacks against Arabs as well.
Again the only way I an figure this could be seen as "lessening" the term somehow, is if one believes using these attacks against Arabs is legitimate.
Which is just bargain-bin ignorance, as you made a point above. Of course Arabs can be antisemites, just as Jews can, just as blacks can be anti-black, etc. This has nothing at all to do with recognizing that Arabs can be and often are targeted by the same garbage as Jews.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)Why is it so important? There is no "special" word for racism against blacks; it is simply called racism. The ultimate irony is that 'anti-Semitism' was born because of PC-ness, and now, it seems that change is being attempted again. To what end?
I am already explained the "lessening" factor, repeatedly, so no sense in doing it again as your mind is made and your accusations in place.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Which is a bit ironic, truthfully.
You're right, there is no special word for racism against blacks. I actually have a theory about this, if you're at all curious
As I said, it's not an attempt to change, so much as a recognition of what's going on.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)Then coin a new word; it is done all the time. I just find attempts, no matter the reason, to change the intent or definition of anti-Semitism as dishonest as those who do the same with the word "homophobia."
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Reflect on it, if that's how you do it, i guess.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Throw around a word frivolously, it tends to lose any real meaning. In my opinion, "racist" is following suit.
4dsc
(5,787 posts)I find nothing wrong with his remarks.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Literally going to be sick.
Tripper11
(4,466 posts)BBC HARDtalk - Roger Waters - Musician (19/9/13)
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)I didn't know that Roger was working on an album that might actually get released.
I wonder what David is doing.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)Everyone knows, and I mean everyone - the analogy is strictly speaking to the Government's brutal and racist policies and how those policies are enforced.
But of course, that's just too obvious and truthful to let stand on it's own merits.
We must deny what the Israeli govt has been doing for over 60 plus years and intends to continue to do with their own version of the "solution" sans holocaust/extermination vis a vis gas chambers.
No, they'll merely find other means to crush the Palestinians into complete submission vis a vis Gestapo like tactics/harassment/arrests and imprisonment, and/or military means.
Speaking the truth about these brutal tactics and policies is equated and responded to with accusations of anti-semitism. It's an old, tiresome and ridiculous tactic.. and I'm pleased to see that it's finally wearing very thin by most people with a modicum of common sense.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(10,484 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)people abusing the Nazi comparison don't reference the Holocaust, then you turn around and say crazy, anti-Semitic shit like the Israelis are committed to a Final Solution.
2banon
(7,321 posts)Response to 2banon (Reply #94)
Kurska This message was self-deleted by its author.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)as I am witnessing the collective sphincters of the hasbaradist pearl clutchers puckering uncontrollably.
Outrage away boys.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Israel Cranks Up the PR Machine
It’s deploying all its resources to fight the growing world movement against the occupation.
Max Blumenthal
In the post-Oslo era, as the strategy that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s inner circle refers to as “peace without peace” captured the Israeli consensus, human rights activists ratcheted up grassroots efforts to challenge the occupation of Palestine and Israel’s prevailing structure of ethno-religious discrimination. Popularly known as BDS, the movement to boycott, divest from and sanction Israeli institutions involved in occupation has generated shock waves in international pro-Israel circles and within the top levels of Israel’s military-intelligence apparatus. The government-linked Reut Institute has designated BDS as a key national security threat and produced a blueprint for sabotaging Palestine solidarity networks around the world.
While paranoia mounts inside Israeli policy circles about the rising tide of nonviolent global resistance, Netanyahu has grown obsessed with Israel’s withering image in the West. Under his guidance, the term “delegitimization” has become a household word signifying BDS and nearly everything done in the name of exposing Israel’s violations of international law. And thanks to Netanyahu’s instigation, Barack Obama has become the first American president to explicitly pledge to battle the pressure campaign.
Groping for a convenient solution to its public relations problems, the Israeli government has turned to hasbara. The literal meaning of this Hebrew word is “explanation,” but when put into practice, most informed observers recognize it as propaganda. The more the State of Israel relies on force to manage the occupation, the more it feels compelled to deploy hasbara. And the more Western media consumers encounter hasbara, the more likely they are to measure Israel’s grandiose talking points against the routine and petty violence, shocking acts of humiliation and repression that define its treatment of the Palestinians.
Under the leadership of Netanyahu—a professional explainer himself, who spent the early years of his political career as a frequent guest on prime-time American news programs perfecting the slickness of the Beltway pundit class—the Israeli government has invested unprecedented resources into hasbara. Once the sole responsibility of the foreign ministry, the task of disseminating hasbara now falls on a special Ministry of Public Diplomacy and Diaspora Affairs, led until 2013 by Yuli Edelstein, a right-wing settler and government minister who has called Arabs a “despicable nation.” (Edelstein is now speaker of the Knesset.)
Edelstein’s ministry boasts an advanced “situation room,” a paid media team, and coordination of a volunteer force that claims to include thousands of bloggers, tweeters and Facebook commenters who are fed the latest talking points and then flood social media with hasbara in five languages. The exploits of the propaganda soldiers conscripted into Israel’s online army have helped give rise to the phenomenon of the “hasbara troll,” an often faceless, shrill and relentless nuisance deployed on Twitter and Facebook to harass public figures who express skepticism about official Israeli policy or sympathy for the Palestinians. These efforts have been complemented by the office of the prime minister, the IDF spokesperson’s unit, and the ministry of tourism and culture, each of which hosts newly created hasbara units. Even the Jewish Agency, a state-funded para-governmental organization primarily engaged in absorbing and settling new Jewish immigrants, employs a full-time social media operative named Avi Mayer, who spends his days on Twitter attacking Palestine solidarity activists with usually baseless claims of anti-Semitism and deception.
(snip) much more.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)He hurts the Palestinians by spewing this shit.
Israel does a lot of horrible things in the Occupation, but this kind of comment is the worst possible response.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)would shut the fuck up....and for someone who proclaims he should in the manner you have....I think a comment like yours would just inspire him to use his free speech even more so in any way he pleases...as is his right. Anyone who tells anyone else to "shut the fuck up" is not someone to be listened to.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But hate needs to be called out. And people who criticize what the Israeli state does to Palestinians, or feel any solidarity with Palestinians at all, have a special obligation to be vigilant against any hint of anti-Jewish rhetoric or feeling creeping into anything that gets said in the "Palestinian-sympathetic" part of the spectrum.
The legitimate issues with the Israeli government and Israel as a country are:
A)The injustice of the Occupation and the West Bank settlements since 1967;
B)The continued collective punishment and repression imposed on all Palestinians in response the violence of some;
C)The need to address the injustice of the original dispersal of Palestinian noncombatants in 1948-which will require, at the very least, accepting the right of return of those Palestinians actually alive in 1948, and apologies, compensation, and acknowledgment of the reality of their identity as Palestinians(without physical RoR)for those born after that year.
The Jewish character of the State of Israel is not, and should not be, an issue, and neither the various forms of Judaism as a religion, nor of any of the various forms of Jewish cultural and/or ethnicity should be issues either. What matters is how badly Palestinians have been treated-and the need to establish a Palestinian state as the only possible way to end that mistreatment, since it goes without saying that the Occupation has never been just nor moral and the creation of a just, free, autonomous and democratic future for the Palestinian people can never happen as long as the Occupation continues and the illegal settlements in the West Bank continue to exist.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)And watch his BBC interview. He isn't a "hater".
Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)
Post removed
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Palestinian children killed by Israel since 2000, but I'm sure in your mind that's somehow different
http://www.btselem.org/statistics
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Granted I suppose this isn't a thread that's been prone to strong thought, but damn, if you're going to pretend to be better than people, you could at least try to sound smarter than them.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Perhaps it's best your participation is rare.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)their grandparents to death as part of a campaign of genocide is nasty, historically inaccurate, and at the very least borderline anti-Semitic. And I say this as someone with very little positive to say about the state of Israel.
obama2terms
(563 posts)But let's not play the "Palestine is completely innocent" game. They have both done horrible things to each other. Neither of them is more innocent than the other. You can criticize Israel's policies with out being anti-semitic, however you cannot say "The Jewish lobby is extraordinary powerful here ( The United States) and particularly in the industry that I work in, the music industry and in rock ‘n’ roll, as they say," and pretend you're not anti-semitic.
And to top it on all of that when confronted about his anti-semitism he claims he has a Jewish friend,how many times have we heard that when a bigot gets exposed? How many times have we heard "I have a (fill in the blank) friend" from a republican who gets their bigotry exposed? The claim that Jews are all powerful and control everything in America is anti-semitism to the core, and represents some of the worst of the many anti-semitic stereotypes that exist.
And not only that he's a hypocrite: “So for an artist to go and play in a country that occupies other people’s land and oppresses them the way Israel does, is plain wrong,” yet he plays in China, Russia, Turkey, Myanmar etc. when those countries have done the same thing? So why is it only the Jewish state that he has something against? What singles out Israel from every other country that has done this? And another thing, there seems to be a lot of anti-semites on DU. You are all so quick to jump on racism and homophobia yet when someone is an anti-semite it's o.k.? It seems when it comes to prejudice many democrats are no better than a lot of republicans. It only took one post to expose that this site is full anti-semites.
I dealt with enough anti semitism growing up Jewish in the south. And here I thought I found a website full of good people, I guess I was wrong. I want to delete my account from this site, I just wish I knew how.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Really thought your comment would represent the prevailing sentiments here in response to this, but, sadly, that appears not to be the case.
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)the i/p forum used to be populated by a handful of folks. we agreed and disagreed but never to the level of what i read now. i was given a time out twice during those early years for posting comments that are`t close to what i read now. this is the worse forum for discourse and is why i rarely post anything here anymore. the best places here at du is still the lounge and the speciality forums.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)is that it has been played 10,000 times. No one takes it seriously anymore and a lot of that has to do with the people who play it, most recently.
WW2 was 75 years ago. The world has moved on but Israel is stuck in that ideological past and constantly using that excuse. Do you seriously think that just because someone says they have a friend who is of a certain stereotype they must be a bigot in that regard? Because everyone has a friend in some group or another.
Personally I think Roger waters has jumped on that particular cause because it one of the biggest paradoxes of WW2 (in which his father died.) Here you have the ancestors of the people who were a large part of the victims of the conflict using similar policies on their adversaries that the Nazi's used on their ancestors. It points out something about human nature and I think underneath it all that is his larger message. All these wars are trite petty conflicts that blossom into major destruction and suffering. Roger is very good at pointing out what really dictates who wins and loses in war. The whole "Perfect Sense" DVD is focused on the Middle East and US/Israel/Neo Con aggression in the Middle East. Listen to "The Bravery of Being Out of Range". That whole period of his music is amazing but was largely missed by his "Wall" era fan base due to the fact that a lot of them were actually cheering on the war in Iraq. He wrote a song called "Leaving Beirut" back in 2004 so this isn't just some issue he hasn't given some thought to. He also wrote a beautiful song about a girl dying in Tiananmen Square around the same time called "MY Yellow Rose" so that negates your point about why doesn't he pick on other countries.
This is Rogers quote on the Jewish people in the music industry.
“This has been a very hard sell particularly where I live in the United States of America,” he said. “The Jewish lobby is extraordinary powerful here and particularly in the industry that I work in, the music industry and in rock’n roll as they say. I promise you, naming no names, I’ve spoken to people who are terrified that if they stand shoulder to shoulder with me they are going to get f*****.”
It doesn't sound anti-Semitic in any way. It sounds like he believes a group of people have power to punish those who don't agree with them and he thinks people who feel the same way as him may be afraid to speak out in regards to the cause. That is not a far fetch or anti-Semitic notion. I'm sure if Albanian dwarves had major control over his industry and they were conducting dangerous policies that he would be calling them out to. It's in his nature. Personally I'm glad it is. It helps bring to light these issues of war and suffering and if anything pays homage to all the innocent people who died under the Nazi's.
I think posters here would do well to research Roger waters entire discography. It's astounding and he has never faltered in his conviction to expose war and injustice.
obama2terms
(563 posts)I thought I made it very clear that criticizing Israel's policies isn't anti-semitic. But acting like Palestine is completely innocent is just plain ignorant, and I would say the same thing if he was saying Israel has done no wrong and Palestine is the only one causing harm. Just because "WWII was 75 years ago" doesn't mean anti semitism ended. It existed long before the holocaust and it continued afterwards, even in the U.S. Heck about three years ago this nut threw a Molotov Cocktail through our rabbi's window. The man was later caught and the man admitted that it was an anti-semitic attack. I don't think pretending like anti-semitism just ended after the holocaust, pays homage to any of the Jewish victims of the holocaust. Anti-semitism didn't end after the holocaust anymore than racism ended after the Civil Rights Act was passed.
And now to his comments on the so called "Jewish Lobby" You seem to be unaware of anti-semitic stereotypes. The particular one he mentioned about Jews being all powerful existed long before Israel did. It is a common negative stereotype about American Jews that even the Dept. of state mentions on their list of Contemporary examples of Anti-semitism. "Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as a collective—especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions."Dave Schneder wrote about this too: " "Three large clusters of traits are part of the Jewish stereotype First, Jews are seen as being powerful and manipulative. Second, they are accused of dividing their loyalties between the United States and Israel. A third set of traits concerns Jewish materialistic values, aggressiveness, clannishness."
"It doesn't sound anti-Semitic in any way. It sounds like he believes a group of people have power to punish those who don't agree with them and he thinks people who feel the same way as him may be afraid to speak out in regards to the cause." So are you implying that a bunch of Jews have the power to "punish" him if he says something they don't like? We have freedom of speech, so I highly doubt he's been persecuted. And another thing, we represent 2 percent of the population in the U.S. ( and that includes children) so saying we have all of this so called "power" is absolutely outrageous. So excuse me if I get offended when someone spews a common negative stereotype about Jews.
Think anti-semitism just disappeared? Think again!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2479003/Jewish-delivery-man-awarded-900k-damages-Nazi-gas-chamber-jokes.html
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2012/topic-pages/victims/victims_final
http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/international/c/global-antisemitism-2013.html
go west young man
(4,856 posts)The real debate is "when is it actually anti semitism and when it is just an excuse for condoning bad behavior"? Personally I agree that the opposition isn't faultless but it's easy to see that Israel controls what really happens in that region (along with the US which is heavily effected by Jewish lobbying) and they have been encroaching further and further, conducting more violent strikes and not abiding by international agreements. They have also become highly over reactionary and using excessive force when dealing with Palestinian attacks. Personally I think that has more to do with the Netanyahu admins messed up philosophy which has hurt Israel on the international stage. It may have seemed to help short term but it has hurt more long term. He took the main victim of WW2 (aside from the 26 million dead Russians) and turned them into bad guys essentially. No easy feat.
Waters is just reacting to what he sees now. Jewish people in general aren't going to like it because it is them and their government he is calling out.
There is also ample evidence that a lot of Jewish people are involved in the US media and the music and movie industry in particular. That's no secret. Sure there are many other nationalities represented as well, but Waters point is a simple one. He believes himself and others who support his beliefs may be financially punished in their industry if they speak their minds on that issue. That doesn't sound like anti semitism. That sounds like a reasonable belief in an industry with a large amount of Jewish influence.
Once again I think it is important to properly understand Roger waters entire creative catalog to understand his beliefs. There is no way the man who wrote all those important songs "just hates Jewish people" . It's a silly notion. He may think some of the outfits and religious rituals are silly but I guarantee you he loves plenty of Jewish people. More than likely people in the John Stewart/ Ben Stiller vein. People who can laugh and point the finger back at themselves without saying they are being persecuted because of their religion.
I think Roger probably would address Israeli's directly as Israeli's and not even say the word Jews except for the fact that the people he believes will cause him the most headache on this issue in the states are not Israeli's, they are simply just associated by their religion. Hence it puts him in a catch 22. Damned if he does. Damned if he doesn't.
obama2terms
(563 posts)Was originally a Christian idea. And that was long before the Zionist movement even existed. George Bush who was a Christian restorationist ( distantly related to the Bush family) believed that Jews should return to the "holy land" where most of them would be converted to Christianity. In fact the largest pro-Israel organization in the U.S. isn't even a Jewish group, it's a Christian one called Christians United for Israel. Many Jews I know, including myself don't like this group because of their unconditional support for Israel. They think Israel can do no wrong, which is absolutely outrageous. This group is based more on Christian guilt about the holocaust, than it is about making Israel a better place. Zionism wasn't even mentioned in the U.S. until Louis Brandeis (first Jewish SCOTUS Justice) was raising money to send to Jews in war torn Europe during WWI. It had nothing to do with even establishing a Jewish state.
Evangelical groups these days have more undying support for Israel than Jews do. Evangelical groups think Israel can do no wrong because they believe Israel was given to Jews by god. In fact 55 percent of U.S. Christians and 64% of Protestant Christians believe this. While only 40% of American Jews believe this, and when it comes down to secular Jews only 16% believe that.
Considering Christians have the largest pro-Israel lobbying group in the U.S. and that's just one I named. Wouldn't they be the ones that truly have more power and control? They surely make up more than a measley 2% of the population. This whole idea that Jewish lobbying is exclusively a Jewish thing is a common myth. With Jews making up less than 2 percent of the population when you exclude children there has to be outside influences, hence all of the Christian groups.
Personally I'm not a fan of BB Netanyahu or Shimon Peres. Frankly I am sick of all of the violence between Israel and Palestine, because it's not average citizens of either place doing this, it's their governments and individual radical groups. I'm a strong supporter of a 2 state solution, and I have been for a long time. I don't see it happening anytime soon because both places have to want peace, they can't rely on other countries to make it happen.
Now to Roger Waters, "Waters is just reacting to what he sees now. Jewish people in general aren't going to like it because it is them and their government he is calling out." What do you mean by that? I can't speak for other Jews but Israel's gov't is not "my gov't" the U.S. gov't is my gov't. I've never been to Israel and have no desire to go because of their policies I don't agree with, including how women are treated there. I've lived in the U.S. my whole life so I don't consider Israel's gov't my gov't, because I don't live there nor do I EVER want to go there. And Roger Waters is calling my people out? What exactly have I done to warrant this? I don't belong to any political lobbying groups, I live a pretty average life. And surprise surprise! I'm not involved in the music industry or any big industry in the U.S. for that matter.
What you said about this "he believes himself and others who support his beliefs may be financially punished in their industry if they speak their minds on that issue." He's worth 230 million dollars so it doesn't sound like anyone has financially punished him for his views. He sounds like a paranoid anti-semite who thinks Jews control every little move he makes. About Jon Stewart and Ben Stiller. If Jon Stewart ever does a segment on Water's comments he probably will make fun of Roger Water's paranoid views that Jews are out to get him for his views on Israel. I don't know what Ben Stiller would do because I've never watched his stand up, I think he's a better actor than he is a stand up comedian.
I would be more inclined to listen to his views on Israel if he didn't bring up age old anti semitic stereotypes in the process. I think the inflatable pig was more bad taste than anti-semitism. And in some ways inaccurate. He seems to equate being Jewish as automatically making you a Zionist which is not the case. I don't think he should have put a star of david on that pig, he should have put Israel's flag. By doing what he did he's singling out Jewish people as a whole not Israel like he should have done (which does not represent the views or beliefs of all Jews or even its citizens).
He had a good chance to make a huge political statement, but his own ignorance of Jews and our beliefs ruined the whole thing.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The fact that you repeatedly cite "Jews" instead of "Israelis" means yes Virginia you are peddling anti-semitism.'
Waters is just reacting to what he sees now. Jewish people in general aren't going to like it because it is them and their government he is calling out.
There is also ample evidence that a lot of Jewish people are involved in the US media and the music and movie industry in particular. That's no secret. Sure there are many other nationalities represented as well, but Waters point is a simple one. He believes himself and others who support his beliefs may be financially punished in their industry if they speak their minds on that issue. That doesn't sound like anti semitism. That sounds like a reasonable belief in an industry with a large amount of Jewish influence.
Once again I think it is important to properly understand Roger waters entire creative catalog to understand his beliefs. There is no way the man who wrote all those important songs "just hates Jewish people" . It's a silly notion. He may think some of the outfits and religious rituals are silly but I guarantee you he loves plenty of Jewish people. More than likely people in the John Stewart/ Ben Stiller vein. People who can laugh and point the finger back at themselves without saying they are being persecuted because of their religion.
I think Roger probably would address Israeli's directly as Israeli's and not even say the word Jews except for the fact that the people he believes will cause him the most headache on this issue in the states are not Israeli's, they are simply just associated by their religion. Hence it puts him in a catch 22. Damned if he does. Damned if he doesn't.
Are you an anti-semite? I don't know. But your comments are definitely anti-semitic.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Since the entrenched racism in Israel's politics places them in a privileged position above Israeli Mizrahi, Sephardi and African Jews. Not to mention Israeli Arabs and Bedouins.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/an-inconveivable-crime.premium-1.484110
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/12/israel-scraps-plan-uproot-bedouin-201312122002896127.html
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)tend to be those most willing to stick it to the Palestinians.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Your post is ironic in the sense that now you have played the anti-Semitic card, I too am considered no different that Roger Waters. Which of course is fine by me because like a lot of people in this thread you have no understanding of the man, for if you did you would know he is a person who works to help people in need and despises injustice. Listen to the songs. Read the lyrics.
The people in America who defend Israel in the media industry are not Israeli's, they are however Jewish. That is what Waters is pointing out. That doesn't make him an anti-semite. He doesn't attack their religion although I'm pretty sure he finds most religion silly. Instead he points out that they are ones pushing the Israeli agenda in the US. The only way he can address them is as Jewish. And when he does people scream anti-semitism.
Personally I think that old canard has worn out it's usefulness. It has been exploited way too many times and now the world is seeing Israel in an unfavorable light. It's chicken little syndrome.
Personally I think homosexuals are a lot more persecuted than anyone else these days. Governments the world over fail to give them equal rights. That is a much more serious problem than an issue that was major in the 1940's.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You mean like Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Chris Matthews, Brian Williams, Diane Sawyer, Scott Pelley, Bob Schieffer, George Stephanopoulos?
Oh, wait, are you talking NBCUniversal, CBS/Viacom, ABC Disney, and Rupert Murdoch?
No, you're just ignorantly blabbing lazy stereotypes and conspiracy theories about the Jews controlling the media, and acting as if Christian Zionism and the MIC and oil industry are irrelevant.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)I happen to agree with you on all those other categories you mention. Yet I'm the ignorant one. You just assume and blather. There's plenty of Israel blame to go around. It still doesn't make my point any less valid.
Let me do my impression of your O'Reilly line. "I give you the last word". As if it makes you or him seem reasonable.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Israel is a country with institutional racism. If you are pro-institutional racism then there is another(dying) political party where you might find your views more welcome. Just don't tell them you are Jewish.
That said, I don't disagree with all of what you have said. But criticism of Israel is not always antisemitism nor anti-Israeli, as evidenced by the many Israeli moderates who are working to move their country closer to the political center.
And if you feel that you can not handle your views being challenged, contact an administrator about closing your account. They will take care of you.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Certainly, Palestine is not completely innocent. Of course, all criticism of Israel and Palestine should be accompanied with a caveat about assigning responsibility for the actions of governments or terrorist groups to populations at large.
However, Israel does in fact have a powerful lobby in the US, with much more political and cultural sway than Palestine. I don't believe that pointing this out is anti-semitism.
And I flat-out disagree with your claim that there is a lot of anti-semitism on DU. There is a lot of criticism of Israel on DU. Some of it may be unfair, and some of it may be based on oversimplifications. But, if Israel were a Christian nation rather than Jewish one, there would be exactly the same amount of criticism, with the same amount of unfairness and oversimplification.
abq e streeter
(7,658 posts)such blatant anti-Semitism .Although, this is an Achilles heel of too much of the Left in general, not just DU.But there ARE many good people here too.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)What you said is true, but there are those committed to confronting the bigotry. Also, we have a Jewish Group you can visit. Things like this are always a slap in the face, especially those that defend or make excuses for it, but there is so much more to this site.
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)actually i could care less what he has to say. it`s his opinion not mine
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I think he's on the right track, although obviously the state of Israel hasn't done anything remotely as bad as the Nazis did starting in about 1937. But they're pointed in the same bad direction, and it's nice to hear Roger Waters call this out again.
vkkv
(3,384 posts)The Puritans got kicked out of both England and then Holland before coming to America because their brand of 'religious freedom' in Europe was to OPPRESS all OTHER RELIGIONS!
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)Beacool
(30,517 posts)Unless they are referring to another regime that systematically sent to the gas chambers millions of people, and not only Jewish ones either.
The comparisons are overblown and inaccurate, not to say repulsive.
lostincalifornia
(5,349 posts)attempt to even contribute to the discussion on a middle east, Israeli, and Palestinian path to solution.
but that of course is not what they want. Let's keep the flames of hate going is what they want
Beacool
(30,517 posts)What Hitler and the Nazis did to millions of people throughout Europe, the Pacific and Northern Africa and too, was pure and absolute evil. It affected millions of people and not all of them were Jewish. For example, the almost 900 day siege of Leningrad caused the death of a million civilians.
lostincalifornia
(5,349 posts)lostincalifornia
(5,349 posts)ArnoldLayne
(2,263 posts)ArnoldLayne
(2,263 posts)
Martin Eden
(15,622 posts)And who'll deny that's what the fighting's all about?
1000words
(7,051 posts)It's a battle of words, and most of them are lies.
Martin Eden
(15,622 posts)From the rear, but no one died!
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Worth examining.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Waters continued: "The Holocaust was brutal and disgusting beyond our imagination. We must never forget it. We must always remain vigilant. We must never stand by silent and indifferent to the sufferings of others, whatever their race, colour, ethnic background or religion. All human beings deserve the right to live equally under the law."
Iggo
(49,927 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)on a false premise.
If waters were to say that he hates Jews then I would have to condemn him for being a racist asshole.
Iggo
(49,927 posts) 
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)
ArnoldLayne
(2,263 posts) Bradical79
(4,490 posts)You can see the parallels (like forced relocation). I think it's a mistake to single out Israel though. Multiple countries have contributed to the current situation, and are fueling the mistreatment of Palestinians from both sides. It's not just an Israel problem, and is more complicated than Nazi aggression. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is an oversimplification.
ArnoldLayne
(2,263 posts)