US hints at Edward Snowden plea bargain to allow return from Russia.

[another_liberal]

Source: The Guardian

The attorney general, Eric Holder, has indicated that the US could allow the national security whistleblower Edward Snowden to return from Russia under negotiated terms, saying he was prepared to “engage in conversation” with him. Holder said in an MSNBC interview that full clemency would be “going too far”, but his comments suggest that US authorities are prepared to discuss a possible plea bargain with Snowden, who is living in exile in Russia.

Snowden, who took part in a live webchat at about the same time Holder’s remarks were made public, defended his leaks, saying weak whistleblower protection laws prevented him from raising his concerns through formal channels. “If we had ... a real process in place, and reports of wrongdoing could be taken to real, independent arbiters rather than captured officials, I might not have had to sacrifice so much to do what at this point even the president seems to agree needed to be done,” Snowden said.

He gave no indication in the live chat whether he would consider any plea bargain or negotiated return to the US. Asked under what conditions he would return to his native country, Snowden replied: "Returning to the US, I think, is the best resolution for the government, the public, and myself, but it’s unfortunately not possible in the face of current whistleblower protection laws, which through a failure in law did not cover national security contractors like myself."

(snip)

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/23/edward-snowden-nsa-plea-bargain-russia

---

That didn't take long! The Feds are already starting to cave.

Hurry home, Mr. Snowden. There are a great many of us waiting to welcome you as our hero.

[grasswire]

1. ticker tape!

But I wonder if this can be trusted.

[another_liberal]

4. It's The Guardian . . .

They're a reliable source. Better than the Times or WSJ at the very least.

[DonViejo]

12. Let's not forget the New York Post and Britain's Daily Mail...

neither of which is reliable.

[grasswire]

18. no no I didn't mean The Guardian

I meant the trial balloon from DoJ. If that did in fact happen.

[another_liberal]

20. I see.

It is only a toe in the water, no doubt. Holder has to go slow with drawing back from the early calls to send a killer drone after Snowden. This has been a big embarrassment overall. After public opinion was found to be not at all in line with the initial attempt to classify Snowden as the worst traitor since John Wilkes Booth, the DOJ had a little trouble squaring their early reaction with current reality.

[on point]

55. I am sure your summary is what is going on. Let's walk them back all the way from prosecution

1000+ for above

[msanthrope]

57. Why would you think a plea deal is a walkback from prosecution? nt

[on point]

59. Start of negotiating position admin gave an inch

Just to be clear I think he deserves a full upfront pardon AND the Medal of Freedom for service to his country. He actually honored the constitution while the rest of the NSA violated it

[msanthrope]

69. Not really...have you seen plea terms? A federal prosecutor is generally obligated

to offer a deal...promotes court efficiency. The offering of a plea isn't a sign of weakness.

[hueymahl]

151. Ha ha ha

Surely you jest. This is purely politically motivated. No prosecutor in the nation offers plea deals to fugitives.

[msanthrope]

153. Which is the point I made on another thread, and which is why Eddie has

no leverage....he cannot both flee and plead. He will have to capitulate.

[Vattel]

109. Since when has the Guardian been reliable?

[MrMickeysMom]

117. The Guardian's articles tend to be well referenced...

This one in particular is quoting the state of our DoJ's dialogue with Snowden based on an MSNBC interview.

I've had a good deal of respect for the majority of articles coming out of the Guardian when compared to the NYT or WSJ, journals which provided a good platform for writers who were little more than water carriers for the Iraq war.

I like well written and referenced news sources and see a good deal more of it in the Guardian.

[grasswire]

2. wait.

A plea bargain would likely mean no more information. Hmmm.

[another_liberal]

9. That is a point, I'll grant you.

Still, this may signal a major change in the Obama Administration's attitude toward whistle blowers. That can only be good.

[sendero]

53. Naa......

... they are scared shitless that Snowden has some really embarrassing documents, and they want to forestall their release.

They HATE this dude and everything he has done and they are taking this route in desperation, nothing more.

And I saw Holder on TV talking about this so the "is this real" stuff can be canned, it's real and it isn't the first time this idea was floated, they started talking this way a few weeks back. Again, they DON'T KNOW what all he took and they have some skeletons (national security related I'm sure they really do not want out.

All IMHO of course.

[Titonwan]

102. Pretty good assessment Amigo

[Gerhard28]

130. No, it isn't. Snowden no longer controls the info.

It's in the hands of Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras and other people.

[Titonwan]

149. I know that

and I don't mind you clarifying.

[Incitatus]

10. I thought everything he took was already in the hands of other individuals.

If there is more information they don't want to be released, how can he guarantee that?

[Titonwan]

33. It is in other's hands.

Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras and to a lesser extent- the Guardian- have these documents. Edward had nothing on him when he left Hong Kong.
Which makes this a curious situation.

"If there is more information they don't want to be released, how can he guarantee that?"

He can't. But I think that's a good thing. Glenn is a bull dog and the truth will come out. Drip by embarrassing drip. It's the bath this country is long overdue in taking. Still, Edward Snowden deserves amnesty.

[Incitatus]

35. Hey may deserve it, but I'm very skeptical that he could safely return anytime in the near future,

regardless of what assurances are made.

[Jerry442]

67. I don't doubt a lot of intel types would see it as a plus if he were whacked, even now. nt

[jmowreader]

38. Snowden left with nothing but digital files, correct?

You have a computer. You know how to copy files. And so does Snowden.

[Titonwan]

41. And?

Edward Snowden is a brilliant programmer and IT guy but he's no reporter or journalist- that's why he searched out Laura Poitras (who convinced Glenn Greenwald to interview him). I doubt Edward took anything with him when he flew out of Hong Kong. And even if he did- the encryption involved is unbreakable - even by 'brute force' methods. AES 128bit encryption would take over a billion years to crack and Ed was using better technology than that.
Ed knows a little bit more than how to copy files.

[msanthrope]

56. And full allocution and cooperation. If Eddie cops a plea deal, that means he sold out. nt

[nilesobek]

64. It makes one think it might all be an elaborate ruse

if the information stopped coming. Like a setup, propaganda takes the place of truth.

[democratisphere]

3. Still waiting to hear the rest of the story.

Snowden confirmed what we already knew and opened our eyes....even wider!!

[another_liberal]

5. Our President has had just about enough of the NSA . . .

Something tells me maybe our President has had just about enough of the NSA and it's Global Intelligence Empire.

[Psephos]

11. Judging by his actions, it's clear that he hasn't. n/t

[joshcryer]

37. I think more than anything he's pissed it grew so powerful under his watch.

And he probably got the briefings and he probably was in the inner circle he chose himself (just to be bi-partisan) who made him believe it was no big deal. He even went on to say it saved lives but reports are now suggesting it has achieved absolutely nothing in the way of attaining security for the US.

[Shemp Howard]

52. What are you talking about?

"Our President has had just about enough of the NSA?" Huh? As president, Obama is in complete charge of the NSA! He could change things tomorrow if he wanted to. No congressional approval would be needed.

There might be some very good reasons why Obama has done little to rein the NSA in. Who knows? But the NSA is his baby. He is not some outside observer.

[another_liberal]

100. "He is not some outside observer."

I would never suggest that was true; also, I would not suggest he can just, ". . . change things tomorrow if he wanted to." No President can do that without paying a high price. Power politics being what they are, a powerful, well-funded secret agency like the NSA is able to throw around a lot of weight, in the from of supporters in the House and Senate (not all of them Republicans either).

If President Obama wants to bridle the NSA, he will have to be both careful and smart about it.

[Titonwan]

104. Yeah, I remember

"If President Obama wants to bridle the NSA, he will have to be both careful and smart about it."

This is the idol worship that absolved Barack from reneging on his promise to filibuster the 'New & Improved! FISA Act©' and people (such as myself) knew right then and there he was a total sell out. AT&T fuckin' wrote their own damned 'get out of jail free!' when 'retroactive immunity' was put in the bill. Result: Cheney, Baby Bush and the rest are free to go. No war crimes at all. No civil liberties suits addressed.
I'm up to here with President Obama's spinelessness. He better start showing some balls or I'll work against this crap going on now. And yes, Ms. Warren has ten times the sack. Hoo yah!

[another_liberal]

106. I love everything about Elizabeth Warren.

As far as President Obama's performance in office, or any President's for that matter, one must remember that sage old saying:

"Politics is the art of the possible."

[The Stranger]

133. Boy, are you naive.

The NSA has the goods on Obama. That's how it works. Google J. Edgar Hoover.

Obama may eventually find a way out, but if you doubt for a minute they know everything he has ever done, then you're being terribly naive.

[Vattel]

110. hardly, he got caught with his pants down. and so has now proposed relatively weak reforms.

He loves the NSA

[Warren Stupidity]

6. If I were Snowden I would stay as far away from this alleged deal and US legal authority as I

could.

Plus one could always find oneself driving 100+ mph late one night for no obvious reason.

[bl968]

7. He should stay far far away

I agree...

U.S. Attorney: Your Honor, Any deal we made with Mr. Snowden should be considered as made under duress and as such null and void. We had to take this action to prevent release of further information which would endanger the United States, it's allies, as well as National Intelligence Operations and Assets. Further we move to seal this courtroom and the entire case under the National Security Privilege.

...

Inmate Snowden, welcome to your new life at Guantanamo Bay.

[The Stranger]

134. This.

The Neonazicons will pull the "security" shit and the judges will scatter like rats.

[1000words]

8. +1

There's no coming back. He must know that.

[another_liberal]

15. What makes you so sure of that?

It looks to me like he is winning on points, and adding to his lead.

[1000words]

21. If there is one person who knows what the U.S. is capable of ...

it's this guy. He's got them by the short and curlies, for sure. But any deal will mean he loses leverage, and then all bets are off.

[another_liberal]

24. Absolutely true.

There is little certainty for Snowden. He could still easily end up with a few grams of lead in his brain for all his trouble.

[grasswire]

17. there's that

I agree. Something smells.

[fbc]

39. I agree - he will be tortured.

[Titonwan]

42. What! But but...

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[MannyGoldstein]

13. Hopefully in a few years we'll have an Administration whose word can be trusted

And Snowden can safely return.

[another_liberal]

14. It will happen, and soon.

The NSA's empire of stolen secrets will not long stand. It is a house of cards, already visibly trembling.

[Purveyor]

16. LOL... I want some of that y'all are smoking/snorking... eom

[joshcryer]

36. Hey, Clinton voted against telecom immunity.

She could welcome him with open arms and say she was right all along.

[Titonwan]

43. That was a cynical vote

as she knew full well it'd pass whether she said yay or nay. Politics at it's worst.
You do know she voted for the AUMF and the invasion and occupation of Iraq, right?
She couldn't even be bother with reading the intelligence reports.

[joshcryer]

44. She sure did.

And was the only Senator to give a speech on it denouncing the use of force and pretending that she didn't think Bush would invade unless it was absolutely critical to our security (that makes her seem naive, but that's that).

But her telecom immunity speech doesn't have and baggage behind it. She can legitimately claim she was against spying on Americans and if you don't believe her you will have a hard time trudging up proof. It's classic politics.

[Titonwan]

47. Russ Feingold

was the only Senator to vote against the AUMF. The rest just talked a good talk.
When I heard her talk about 'running from sniper fire' I knew she was full of it. And still is.
Gimme Sanders or Warren or I sit at the house. Dynasties are for feudal societies.

[joshcryer]

48. Wish Russ would run again.

But I doubt it.

[karynnj]

75. When did she give that speech? It wasn't before Bush invaded.

If you mean her IWR speech - the fact is MOST Democratic Senators who voted for the IWR in their speech spoke of the process that Bush had proposed - which would have gone to war only as a last resort. At minimum, Kerry's IWR speech was more "antiwar" than hers - and he DID speak out against rushing to war in January 2003 - unlike Clinton. Harkin, who voted yes, spoke out before the war as well. In fact many could have given the SAME speech as to why they were voting NO. They were asked to put politics aside and give the President leverage to diplomatically deal with Iraq. However, the IWR allowed Bush to define if the conditions to go to war were met. The problem with the IWR is that it gave authority to go to war - and that meant trusting Bush - and they should have refused to vote authority until a case could be made that war was justified. (In fact, by March 2003, there was NO reason to defend attacking - because the inspections were proving there were no WMDs. At the time of the vote, inspectors had not been in Iraq for 4 years. If the resolution did not give approval prematurely - very few Democrats would have voted yes for it in March 2003.)

(Note that under Obama, without a resolution from Congress, but with a Presidential declaration of intent to do a targeted strike, the administration was able to use that leverage to get chemical weapons out of Syria. This shows that the idea of giving a President leverage COULD allow him to accomplish things not likely without it. In fact, it did create invasive inspections the results of which could have enabled the US having comfort in allowing the harmful Iraq sanctions to end. (Biden has explained that their scheduled ending was part of what was happening at that point. That, of course would have assumed that Bush was acting in good faith. )

Just as it was - to his obvious, painful regret - always a fact that Kerry did vote for the IWR - no matter what his motives were, so it is with Hillary Clinton.

This is not to say that she will not be the nominee if she runs. It is very hard to see how she loses - either the nomination or the Presidency. The vote was a very long time ago. The real question is whether we know - even now - what her philosophy is as to when we should take military actions and especially when she would commit troops. Consider that this WAS one of the questions asked of Kerry in a debate with Bush. (His answer was the the one that spoke of teh global test, but which really boiled down to a secular stating of St Augustine's just war.) I assume that this will be one of many areas where she might have a major speech. (alternatively, it may well be something she addresses in her forthcoming book on her years as Secretary of State.)

[olddad56]

65. Hopefully in a few years we still even have a planet.

[frazzled]

19. But he must plead guilty first

The Guardian is such a saucy puppy. They had the ability to report this more explicitly, but apparently chose to curtail their quotes. Actually, there's not really much new here at all:

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. said Thursday that the United States was willing to discuss how the criminal case against Edward J. Snowden would be handled, but only if Mr. Snowden pleaded guilty first.

Mr. Holder, speaking at a question-and-answer event at the University of Virginia, did not specify the guilty pleas the Justice Department would expect before it would open talks with Mr. Snowden’s lawyers. And the attorney general reiterated that the United States was not willing to offer clemency to Mr. Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who has leaked documents that American officials have said threaten national security.

“Instead,” Mr. Holder said in response to a question at the university’s Miller Center, “were he coming back to the U.S. to enter a plea, we would engage with his lawyers.”

...

I absolutely think the tide has changed for Snowden,” Jesselyn Radack, a legal adviser to Mr. Snowden and a lawyer with the Government Accountability Project, said last month. “All of these things taken together counsel in favor of some sort of amnesty or pardon.”

Mr. Holder ruled out that possibility on Thursday. “We’ve always indicated that the notion of clemency isn’t something that we were willing to consider,” he said, adding that any discussions with Mr. Snowden’s lawyers would be the “same with any defendant who wanted to enter a plea of guilty.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/24/us/politics/us-willing-to-hold-talks-if-snowden-pleads-guilty.html?hp&_r=0

I doubt these are the conditions under which Mr. Snowden would agree to come back. Unless of course, Russia is even worse than we thought. The message of this was, plead guilty to a certain number of charges (which would mean some definite prison time, probably) and we'll talk about dropping some other charges.

[another_liberal]

22. That is the message now . . .

We'll have to see what Mr. Holder has to offer after the next batch of revelations is made public.

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. What does 'plea bargain' mean to you?

I've never heard of a plea bargain that involved the defendant pleading 'not guilty' to everything.

[msanthrope]

58. A federal plea deal means Eddie will be ratting everyone else out. I wouldn't call

that 'winning!'.

[muriel_volestrangler]

62. I'm not talking about anyone 'winning'; just that the Guardian put 'plea bargain' in the headline

and therefore can't be said to be downplaying that this would involve pleading guilty to something, which frazzled seems to think they were glossing over.

[Titonwan]

63. Edward hasn't ratted anyone out.

But of course you do know what's getting revealed is mostly credited with Glenn Greenwald, right? He's doing the vetting- making sure that not one individual would be harmed in the disclosures. Edward don't have no files, anymore. Comprendes Amigo?

[msanthrope]

68. If he cops a federal plea, he will have to. nt

[Titonwan]

72. Edward won't cop to a plea.

I wouldn't either. That'd be like fuckin' with the mob and expect to get back in their good graces. I'm just glad Russia has extended his asylum.

[msanthrope]

80. Yeah he will. and Russia hasn't extended the asylum..it's still on the original one year..

[jeff47]

128. You don't have to "rat" anyone out for a plea deal.

Sure, it's a common way to get a plea deal, but it's not the only way.

A plea deal would help in two ways:
1) Get him back in the country instead of talking up how exiled he is.

2) Get around the problem that it isn't actually illegal for a civilian to leak classified. UCMJ has a law about this, but civilian federal law does not. A civilian has to hand the classified over to another country, or for compensation. Snowden didn't hand over the classified for money, and he did not do it at the behest of another country. The laws regarding espionage don't actually cover publishing the information to everyone for free.

Sure, he'd have been fired and lost his clearance, but it's not clear he could be convicted....except that he fled. Now it can be argued Russia's asylum is compensation - they are feeding and housing him, after all. But he could argue that was after-the-fact and not the reason he leaked in the first place.

A plea deal cleans up that potential mess.

[msanthrope]

138. I have never seen a federal poly deal that does not have significant " terms of cooperation"

which includes allocution and significant cooperation against co-conspirators. I can tell you right now that if Mr Snowden whishes to serve short time, he's going to be producing documents in testifying as to ethe nature of those documents.

[jeff47]

139. There aren't many cases like this one.

Last one I can think of would be the Ellsberg case (Pentagon Papers). That didn't go well for the feds.

[msanthrope]

144. But for FBI conduct, Ellsburg would have gone to prison. Snowden doesn't have much leverage..

without agreeing to substantial cooperation.

[jeff47]

147. The problem is well beyond FBI conduct

The FBI fucked it up precisely because they didn't have a crime under which to charge him.

[Whisp]

143. I wonder if dear GG is sleeping well these days.

GG, the guy who is willing to sell stolen classified property for personal gain.

Hmm, I think he might need some Nytol, no?

[msanthrope]

145. GG will never allow Eddie to take a deal, if he has anything to say about it...and he should be

sweating. Travel through the US is going to be very interesting for him.

[Whisp]

146. GG should sell his flop sweat in tiny little expensive vials to his adoring fans. n/t

[HatTrick]

23. Snowden would be nuts to believe them

[another_liberal]

25. When he's ready to deal . . .

He had better get it all in writing before he steps foot on the plane.

[RC]

81. And the plane will develop engine trouble* and land in the Pacific, off course somewhere.

Too bad about the 250 passengers and crew.
I would not trust anyone in our government, especially the too many hold overs from the bu$h administration, that are still there.

*Sidewinder missile or equivalent.

[blkmusclmachine]

27. If they get ahold of Snowden, he's a DEAD MAN.

[blkmusclmachine]

28. You don't snitch on the State, and live to tell about it...

[another_liberal]

29. Like the man said . . .

"We all gotta die, it's only a matter of when."

[jeff47]

129. Please inform Daniel Ellsberg that he is dead. (nt)

[Thinkingabout]

30. Snowden's argument of weak whistle blower protection is not a defense for the actions he has

taken. He is totally over the top, not the legend in his mind.

[grasswire]

31. sez you

....and it appears you are on the wrong side of history on this one.

[Thinkingabout]

32. Don't think so, I bet the defense of weak whistle blower protection would go over like a lead

balloon.

[Titonwan]

34. He's already a legend!

Edward (with the help of Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald) has forced the WORLD to pay attention. And for some strange and creepy reason- people have this notion that Ed's a narcissist and/or in it for the money. Like he's the only person on TV or in the media who isn't in it for publicity. I don't understand this envy of the man.
The only thing I'm envious of Ed is I'm not nearly as brave or as patriotic. And I've been down a few trails in my long life.

[Thinkingabout]

40. a legend in his mind, a thief in truth

[Titonwan]

45. No thief- a liberator.

Matt Taibbi, Jeremy Scahill, Chris Hedges, Digby, Daniel Ellsberg and a host of other well known and fearless people happen to think he's a patriot and hero.
Still time to get on the right side of history...

[Thinkingabout]

60. When you steal you are a thief. maybe you love a thief, I don't. One does not have the right

to take what does not belong to them. Like as in rape the answer is NO until there is yes. Maybe a LIEberator. Far the present time Snowden is charged with espionage and theft, you may need to understand the charges.

[Titonwan]

61. The Espionage Act of 1917

has been used more by this administration (8) than all previous presidents, combined.
It has laughed at the FOIA and threw out every civil rights case regarding war crimes and mass surveillance of the previous administration (and this one)- until now.
Because of a one Edward Snowden.
I hope the EFF and ACLU flood the courts with lawsuits against these assaults on the Fourth Amendment.

[grasswire]

71. Belated welcome to DU

Thanks for your thoughtful posts.

[Thinkingabout]

86. A good reason for the ALCU to tie up our courts. The Constitution was written before 1917, guess

The ALCU can file against it also because it is older.

[Titonwan]

95. No sense

whatsoever. Glenn Greenwald is very much like the vaunted ACLU- he fights for Constitutional law. Now, if you claim to believe in freedom of speech, then sometimes you have to defend asswipes. Everyone is entitled to an opinion (even here, at an ever increasing leaning to the rightwing- ugh) and unless you are shouting 'fire' in a theatre, you can say what you want.
You know the old sayin' "I may not agree with your opinion but I'll fight to the death for your right to say so" (paraphrasing- sue me).
Problem is, you see is the mainstream corporate media wants me to buy a Boeing 792 while being be blown by supermodes® while Exxon© will lube it all up for free (nah, I keed I keed!).
The tragedy of your thought process is what makes human rights such a hard process. Who gets to choose what one may say? Consensus, my man. Shame on the dimwits that cut their noses to spite their face. Your thoughts could become unpopular. Imagine the repercussions without the terrible ACLU.
This is called 'bitin' the hand that feeds you' gig.

[Thinkingabout]

98. The point of my post was to point out just because a law was enacted in 1917 does not

Remove the ability to continue using the law, such as in the Constitution is still being used. Some sections has been defined further but yet the Constitution is still followed. Perhaps you might rethink your post pointing out the Espionage law of 1917 is still a law. We do not get to pick and choose, it does not matter what a citizens opinion of the law might be. Until the law is repealed it remains a law.

[Titonwan]

99. And what a facetious law it was.

Wilson enacted that law to suppress Your 1st Amendment rights. What he did was basically putting people in jail for protesting the involvement in WW1.
Just like this fake democrat is doing now. Eight times, this administration has prosecuted the Espionage Act and that's more than all other presidents combined. From the 'most transparent government ever®' we've seen the most covert administration in modern times (ask the press about WH access). The attacks on whistle blowers is paramount to authoritarians who need the status quo to ensure this corporate welfare. (Hi $hillary Goldman-Clinton!)
This coup is happening slow and incrementally- like a boiling frog- and most don't or won't be bothered with history. Or last year. Or last month.
Point: This stupid law is an aberration on constitutional rights. The oath to service is to serve and PROTECT the Constitution. Seeing the rights of the people being violated compels one to violate the 'rules'. Fuck rules against the Bill of Rights.


"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

Or this little ditty...


"Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
- Mark Twain "Chronicle of Young Satan"

Kinda like the nativist hate for a patriot that sought to wake Americans up to what has creeped in- fascism. That patriot be a one Edward Snowden.

[grasswire]

70. Nieztsche applies here

"Beware those in whom the urge to punish is strong."

[Titonwan]

73. Right on!

Either they're vindictive, envious, ignorant or a combination thereof.
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Chronic hate will do that to a soul.

[Thinkingabout]

87. This must apply to Snowden since it is evident he chooses to punish.

[grasswire]

88. seeking truth is punishment?

Only in some grotesquely twisted world.

[Thinkingabout]

89. Go tell Snowden.

[A Simple Game]

112. Your argument confuses me.

You say you don't love a thief but you seem to be defending the government when they are the thief and were in possession of the stolen property before Snowden came along to inform on them.

So if your car was stolen and I discovered who was the thief that took your car, you would defend the thief and condemn me for telling the police about the thief?

[Thinkingabout]

113. I this case Snowden is clearly the thief, admitted he took the files. Would you want to

Tell the police who stole the files? If you are referring to the phone call records, these are records belonging to the provider and not to the ones buying a service. BTW, the records was not stolen from the providers, there was a warrant issued to collect the records. You have not kept up with this issue if you think your records was stolen. You should do some research and not listen to tabloids', their information has apparently not given you the truth.

[A Simple Game]

115. Well you have a point, someone is clearly not keeping up with the news.

Here's a link to get you started. https://www.google.com/#q=nsa+and+legality

I kept the search as unbiased as I could: nsa and legality. As you would say, educate yourself.

I will give you one concession and call Snowden a trafficker in stolen goods, but it is obvious to most that what the NSA was and is doing is illegal.

[Thinkingabout]

116. You think I am not keeping up, when has the collecting of phone call data gone to the SC

And been ruled unconstitutional? Hasn't happened. I don't know where you did your research and BTW your link did not show any information but takes me to google search. I went further and several listings on google says NSA collecting of this data is legal.

[A Simple Game]

124. You were surprised! It said google right in the link. You went further and saw that

the older links said the collecting was legal, what did the newer links say? Did you notice the second link? Said the White House didn't believe the review board findings, well that settles that, doesn't it! The accused say they are innocent, must be true!

You do know that a case can't go to the Supreme Court until an incident of harm is officially known don't you? Now that Snowden has verified what many have know for years a case will probably be started soon.

[Thinkingabout]

125. Which opinion will be official, the rulings in courts or statements from the WH?

Do I know about the process of going to SC, why yes, that is the reason I stated the Espionage Act has not been overturned. You may not have read about my post on SC overturning acts, I do not use statements by the WH, ALCU or newspaper articles. The google searches of opinions made by judges are official. Several have ruled.

[A Simple Game]

127. I'm not going to waste any more time with you nor am I going to post

a lot of links. Look google, or any other search engine, is not that hard to figure out. Once you learn that you will be a more informed poster.

One last link: https://www.google.com/#q=court+rulings+on+nsa Not 100% conclusive, but as you can see, you seem to be losing.

[Thinkingabout]

136. I am quiet informed, losing, no, I continue to be informed, follow the case through the courts.

I read and listen to Rand Paul, but his opinion is not the one which counts.

[LiberalLovinLug]

140. Since you went there already...

So if you or someone you knew was being raped in a house, and someone saw it happening from the street through a window, you would understand perfectly why the observer would choose to walk by and not commit a crime (break and enter) to save you. Have I got that about right?

Or if he did break and enter and save you, there would always be a dark stain on his so-called heroic act. In fact his breaking and entering is what we should all be focusing on, not the attempted rape. In fact he should go to prison for that before the rapist ever does, because, you know, the rapists was only doing what rapists do.

[Thinkingabout]

142. In this case, Snowden stole files, he is charged with theft and espionage. He has admitted to

Doing this, those in charge have taken action. If you are thinking the Supreme Court Snowden has witnessed a crime, he is not in position to make this judgment. If we were to find an agent for another country was in fact spying within our agencies, it would be a crime also. He has nit "saved" anyone, he has not rescued anyone. He should get his time in court and if he is a hero then it will be recognized. He ran, left the US more than likely because he knows he has committed espionage. He is the charged one.

[MrMickeysMom]

118. What top?

Over the top? What legend do you think he's been spinning?

[Alamuti Lotus]

46. if he came back, I think many on DU would be first in line to crucify and torch him

"The Feds" are not--and are categorically incapable of--caving in on anything. It is wishful and dangerously delusional thinking to assume that the environment has positively changed in the slightest.

[joshcryer]

49. I'd only do that if he got a slap on the wrist.

Because that would indicate LIHOP. The blowback so far has been minimal.

[davidpdx]

50. He wouldn't take it even if it were offered

All he has to say is "it's not enough".

[on point]

54. No plea pardon negotiations. Offer him a full complete pardon Obama and rein in the NSA.

[bemildred]

66. You all need to remember the dead man switch Snowden set up.

He still has leverage. If he dies in any way, there you are. The clock is ticking. At some point, having him "safe" at home and the dead-man switch dismantled starts to look interesting.

[Titonwan]

74. Just like Julian Assange

When you have spooks out there ready and willing to do wet work, it's the only sane thing to do. (I, along with many many others still have the decryption download if Julian just happens to 'fall' or something).
Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras also protect themselves that way. (I love it!)

[bemildred]

76. Snowden has far more leverage than the others.

He really is a problem, they can't risk killing him, and they can't risk letting him talk, and they can't stop him from talking.

Of course, it's wasting asset, his leverage, once it's all out in the open, his protection (such as it is) is gone. This is one reason you keep the really ugly stuff in reserve, and dribble things out.

So the preferred solution is adequate reforms, the worst of the info stays "private" to the government, the stuff is returned, various parties are held to account, and Snowden gets a medal and a book deal.

But of course, that's ridiculous.

[Titonwan]

77. I don't know if you read Digby

but she's got an interesting article out now regarding Mr. Snowden-

"I guess reporters had no time to follow up with the Attorney General about why he feels so adamant about punishment of this particular "crime" when the wealthy criminals who crashed the global financial system are still free and living like kings and the sadists who violated the law and the constitution with torture and indefinite detention are walking around with impunity."
http://www.digbysblog.blogspot.com/2014/01/justice-is-in-eye-of-eric-holder.html

I really admire strong Democrats who see injustice regardless of party. (And the RNC is trying to get ahead of this by announcing their disdain for the NSA. It'd be far better for Democrats to nip this in the bud than to have growing sentiment that mass surveillance is wrong and keep resisting change)

[bemildred]

78. I do think the Dems better take this issue away from the wingnuts while they still can. nt

[Titonwan]

79. Not only does it make political sense...

... it's the ethical thing to do.

[bemildred]

82. LOL!!! Republican Party Demands Investigation Into NSA Spying

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024383650

I rest my case.

[woo me with science]

84. All Americans should unite against spying.

This is not a partisan issue. We need the 99 percent.

[bemildred]

85. Seems unlikely to me.

I was more concerned that the Republicans might use the issue to beat us like a gong in the next election. If we let them. Which they seem to have figured out.

[Titonwan]

93. And the Thugs-R-Us will...

... unless we get democratic leaders to admit the security agencies (NSA in particular) have gone way past their constitutional restraints.
I know, we got all sorts that froth at the latest tooth paste commercials and funny antics of sports people to keep most distracted but I find solace that all of Edward's secrets are not yet known (thanks to brave intrepid journalists). And it's driving the guilty absolutely insane. You know, the secret government.


Air Force Intelligence
Army Intelligence
Central Intelligence Agency
Coast Guard Intelligence
Defense Intelligence Agency
Department of Energy
Department of Homeland Security
Department of State
Department of the Treasury
Drug Enforcement Administration
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Marine Corps Intelligence
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency
National Reconnaissance Office
National Security Agency
Navy Intelligence

Is there anything else on the menu but eggs?

[Titonwan]

90. I'm feelin' ya, man

I don't know why liberals would want to fracture over this bullshit issue of what's right and what's clearly fuckin' wrong. These asshholes at the top are grade A mafia and corporatists are runnin' the gig. Then, you get the ignorant, the devoted and the sand baggers that come here trashing their own god damned rights (willingly!).
I'm sick and tired on how people have become so gullible. All my brothers are VN vets and not only did we fight but a lot of us came back to protest this MIC adventure/profit/naked boobs. I'm a scooter rider and I've never taken an ass beat down like I did when protesting that god awful war. Never bled that much out of 'the world' either.
This stupid divide between all libertarians because a few are jerks doesn't mean we might just share a few strengths, you know, like freedom from illegal search and seizure.
Divide & Conquer© is a classic way to keep people- people that should think of all of us as a tribe- apart and fearful.
My only hope, in these my final days, is that the flow of information reaches enough people to realize the truth. Before they pull the plug, that is (thank you, Net Unneutrality).

For security reasons (for my buddy), I won't tell you his name but I saw what unnecessary conflict does to a soul. He served in the newly formed helicopter advance unit mimicking the exploits of General George 'kill em all' Armpit CustardPie- the 5th Calvary. The battle of the la Drang Valley was made into a shitty movie- "We Were Soldiers Once… And Young". I don't know first hand because I wasn't attached, but according to my compadre in arms- it was a murder house. They didn't get out of there with dignity- they barely fuckin' got out- period. All for a strong point that didn't mean jack strategically. All to make Winchester-Western, Olin Brass and all the other rich jack-squirts who profit on death and destruction.
Yeah, I agree with you, brother/sister. We have got to do better than this crap.
My brother suffers intense PTSD to this day. Incessant 155 mm cannon fire will do that to you. He served as an attache to the brass but volunteered to go in on the third day to reclaim the dead. Their limbs would tear apart from attempting to pull them onto a gurney. That's how far they've rotten, after three days of jungle heat.
So yeah, I have a heart warming fuck you to all of those that would want us to succumb to a police state when stupid bastards like me enlisted because 'I thought' it was the right thing to do. You can be terribly wrong sometimes. Be a human and fess the fuck up.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic*; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I got lot's of problems with this, especially inciting a sky god for inspiration but it doesn't say a fuckin' thing about protecting a bunch of skeered whiners over an incident (911) that doesn't compare at all to other fatality statistics whatsofuckin'ever. It's a mosquito blemishing the chrome on a Cadillac, yet we let the media lead us into mass god damned hysteria and Islamo-Zombies were climbing over the wings of every jet (and hang glider) heading this way to kill each and everyone of us- twice!. (I didn't buy it for a damned minute and I don't buy it now)
So, in closing, I've read your verbage before and very much admire a critical thinker. Cheers
*and domestic- The NSA and their Gestapo like tactics/strategy.

[Luminous Animal]

91. That was a great read! Thanks!

[Titonwan]

92. Back atcha, LA

I like yer style, also. Class.

[bemildred]

94. I had lots of buddies that served in Nam, grunts.

I was a father at 19, so I got a deferment.

I've seen pictures of necklaces of ears, I've seen the drinking and drugs and nightmares. Take care of your brother. I worked in a sawmill at that time. The guys that had seen combat always jumped when you'd drop a big board. That kind of fear does things to you.

Thank you for your service.

[Titonwan]

96. You're damned skippy it does

I'm a spooky kind of a guy even among bikers. Whiplock reflexes on bullshit noises.
Quite tedious, but instinct. I hate that the most. A human tried to kill me and I fell into the belief that all humans are like that. No, they're not, gladly. Most folks are communal and would naturally like each other if the groups were small. I'm not by no means saying divide into racial or religious lines- I'm mostly Chickasaw with a little Irish/English- but by commitment. To help each and every one.
How we solve survival in big cities is a problem I can barely fathom. Life's gonna get a lot more grim if the 0.01% tell us how far they can ram their dick into humanity as a whole (or hole if your a republican't).
Wow, I need to throttle back on my Peyote intake.
Thank you, bemildred for having the fortune of not experiencing a totally cynical act of power by a nation gone mad. 58,000 men and women could have been building bridges, improving national parks or anything else to increase the prosperity of our country but a select few decided their bottom lines needed bottoming threw them into a meat grinder. "War is a Racket"- Smedley Butler

[Vattel]

111. AWESOME!!!!!! I love your reality-based rant!

edited to add: you mean battle of La Drang, right?

[Titonwan]

114. Yeah, thanks for the correction. Drunk fingers.

[bemildred]

83. Republican National Committee Denounces NSA Spying, Calls For Special Congressional Investigation

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024383559

I rest my case.

[treestar]

97. They've abandoned all pretext of journalistic objectivity

By using "whistleblower" as if it were a fact. He did not use the whistleblower protection law.

As for "welcoming him as our hero," how pathetic.

[another_liberal]

101. He is though.

And now you've hurt my feelings. (sniffle)

[Titonwan]

103. Me too

That people don't even know whats good for them. Kinda like the Gnus at the river who drank a little too long.

[FiveGoodMen]

105. I wouldn't trust 'em, Ed!

[malthaussen]

107. Ha, if I were Snowden I wouldn't come near anywhere they could grab me.

I can understand if he's homesick and would like to come back, but I'd demand iron-clad assurances before I would go anywhere the Feds could get their hands on me.

-- Mal

[Titonwan]

108. Here's a good read on 'leakers'

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/feb/06/three-leakers-and-what-do-about-them/?insrc=toc
Pretty good argument, imo.

[another_liberal]

121. Thanks for the link.

I have friends who sincerely think Snowden is a traitor; however, I believe just as strongly that if we do not defend our privacy rights, we will have Big Brother at our virtual shoulder.

[Titonwan]

122. Julian Assange, Chelsea Manning and Thomas Drake

are but three examples of why Edward pursued the actions he took. Plausible deniability is no longer a defense since the NSA has been caught red handed (after Clapper and Alexander lied to Congress), thanks to Glenn Greenwald's disclosures of Ed's findings.
The Constitution trumps a private employee contract when that business is clearly breaking the law. The NDAA has so many loopholes in it, you could interpret it practically any way you choose. This privatizing of national intelligence should outrage an informed public. Like private prisons, there's too much room for abuse.

[arely staircase]

119. great post. keep encouraging him to come back

for his hero's welcome and parade.

[another_liberal]

120. You doubt he'll get one?

He may have to wait a few years before the legal hurdles can be cleared, but I am reasonably certain it will happen.

[arely staircase]

155. hell yeah he will get one

All he needs to do is show up. Americans of all stripes are just waiting to lay palm leaves in the street.

[another_liberal]

156. Snowden is not the enemy.

The enemy is an out-of-control surveillance empire called the National Security Administration. Snowden is our ally.

[Madmiddle]

123. plea bargain against a kangaroo court that has

Already convicted him? He better stay where he is because what exactly was his crime. Telling the American people they are being spied on???

[ladjf]

126. I don't think he is coming back. He doesn't trust the U.S. Gvt. to keep their word. nt

[another_liberal]

135. If I had a warm hotel room in Moscow . . .

If I was Edward Snowden, and if I had a warm hotel room in Moscow, I'd stay until I heard the words, "Complete amnesty."

It would be nice, though, if that were to happen sooner rather than later.

[catbyte]

131. He may have done a good thing exposing NSA abuses, but I personally think he is a Ron Paul loving,

gun nut, Obama-hating creep. I've been reading interviews where he was only "concerned" once Obama was elected, donated to Ron Paul, hates Social Security & thinks old people are nothing but leeches "sitting in hospitals collecting their checks." It's despicable.

"Later in the same session, Snowden wrote that the elderly “wouldn’t be f***ing helpless if you weren’t sending them f***king checks to sit on their ass and lay in hospitals all day.”

"Somehow, our society managed to make it hundreds of years without social security just fine"ES

"Magically the world changed after the new deal, and old people became made of glass." ES

He's also a showboating drama queen where it's ALL ABOUT ME and it's creepy. If he were an actual "hero", he would face the consequences instead of hiding out in Russia.

http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2013/07/08/meet-edward-snowden-gun-nut-obama-hater-foe-of-social-security-fan-of-government-spying/#axzz2rcNQmjmV


Sorry, but he is despicable.

[another_liberal]

137. F. D. R. was our greatest President and possibly the greatest individual of the 20th Century . . .

But he cheated on his wife, and with several different mistresses. No one is perfect.

[catbyte]

141. There's a difference between cheating on your wife & wishing ill on millions of

people.

[another_liberal]

150. I don't believe that was Snowden's motive at all . . .

If anything, he was "wishing ill" only on the criminals who have wantonly violated our Constitutional Rights to Freedom From Unwarranted Search and Seizure.

[Tippy]

152. Absolutely DESPICABLE

He should be arrested and put in prison TREASON is treason.

[The Stranger]

132. But the Neonazicons have so fucked up the law, would it be enforced?

Or would they claim some "security" bullshit and send him to Guantanamo or a military brig?

[struggle4progress]

148. He won't be handed a get-out-of-jail-free card unless he turns out to be a US double-agent

Otherwise, I suppose he might get immunity on metadata collection -- but only if somebody figures out a political path to Congressional defunding of metadata collection, and that's not looking very likely right now. And if he's not a double-agent, nobody's going to consider letting him walk on his more general efforts to tell the world about US spycraft

[another_liberal]

154. I doubt if he is any kind of an "Agent."

He appears to be just a very talented computer programer, although also one with strongly-held opinions and political beliefs.