German TV: Snowden Says NSA Also Spies on Industry
Source: Associated Press
GERMAN TV: SNOWDEN SAYS NSA ALSO SPIES ON INDUSTRY
Jan. 26, 2014 6:05 AM EST
BERLIN (AP) — Former NSA contractor Edward Snowden claims in a new interview that the U.S. agency is involved in industrial espionage.
German public television broadcaster ARD released a written statement before an interview airing Sunday night in which it quotes Snowden as saying that if German engineering company Siemens had information that would benefit the United States — but had nothing to do with national security needs — the National Security Agency would still use it.
ARD did not give any further context and it was not clear what exactly Snowden accused the NSA of doing with such information.
Snowden faces felony charges in the U.S. after revealing the NSA's mass surveillance program. He has temporary asylum in Russia.
Read more: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/german-tv-snowden-says-nsa-also-spies-industry
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joshcryer
(62,270 posts)
Titonwan
(785 posts)There's a lot of vetting to do with this info and I'm sure people could be harmed if Glenn were to disclose it willy-nilly. (Just like the national security intelligence stuff).
Can't wait for the new website to be up and running at full speed.
http://omidyargroup.com/pov/FirstLookMedia
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)of the information provided to them by Snowden, at Snowden's insistence. He wanted to make sure the information was released responsibly.
Titonwan
(785 posts)And I believe they will. Too much to lose, otherwise, my dear.
bucolic_frolic
(43,146 posts)Be familiar with such storied practitioners as
"Reilly, Ace of Spies"
and the system that supports world economic growth
"Confessions of an Economic Hitman" (and other books) by John Perkins
IF the U.S. has been spying after all the times we have defended
intellectual and patent property from foreign intrusion
it would be a VERY Big Thing
Wars have been started over less
swilton
(5,069 posts)is to be credited for his courage in identifying the NSA.....Perkins book was revelatory.
If you want to read an example of investigative journalism on how industrial espionage works and its links to the CIA and State Department, I recommend Kwitny's Endless Enemies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Kwitny
Unfortunately, he died prematurely (age 57) of esophageal cancer.
Demenace
(213 posts)One of these days, these characters will ignite a serious international incident and some of us around here will bear the blame!
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)engaging in illegal acts, and simply allow them to carry on unimpeded?
Demenace
(213 posts)Is spying against foreign interests also illegal now? What is wrong with you people?
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)recording every aspect of our personal communications and lying to us about it.
Here's a guide to what is likely illegal about the NSA's activities:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/us/politics/watchdog-report-says-nsa-program-is-illegal-and-should-end.html?_r=0
Industrial espionage is certainly considered illegal by the FBI:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/counterintelligence/economic-espionage
I suppose you could take an "it's not illegal when the United States does it" stance, but that would be farcical.
Titonwan
(785 posts)How perceptive you are, compadre.
Demenace
(213 posts)I am not here arguing with you on possible NSA activities inside the United states, this is about foreign activities and if you cannot separate these, then I cannot help you. The FBI investigates foreign agents conducting similar activities here locally because the United states can say it is illegal for foreign parties to engage in it here.
It is however, not the same as the United states engaging in it overseas. Those countries have their own local laws that is why we call these activities espionage, you do not do it in the open!
My goodness!
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The NSA steals industry secrets from foreign companies like Siemens, then uses that information to prop up American corporate interests.
To Progressives, such close intertwining of corporate and government institutions is not in the interests of the poor, working or middle classes.
They call us "Progressives" because we want to move forward rather than, like you argue, to maintain entrenched interests and the status quo.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)The foolish idea that "gentlemen should not read each others' mail" has caused]/i] more wars & civilian suffering around the world than you can imagine. The fact is, it's part of the NSA's job to find this stuff out. And Snowden running around, spouting his mouth off makes that job more difficult - to America's great detriment.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)I prefer that my country not engage in illegal activity. I'm not one of those "My Country, Right or Wrong" types - that would be those people over there, on the Right.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)The naivete continuously displayed by the Snowden fans here is astonishing.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Nobody is excusing China et al. for their transgressions. There is no naivete.
I'll quote the Bible, which you Conservatives seem to like so much:
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Matthew 7:3-5).
We're concerned about the NSA breaking the law because it is our government that is doing it. As citizens in a democratic republic, that makes it our responsibility. We have no such responsibility for the actions of the Chinese, German, Japanese, French, Russian, Korean or Israeli governments.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Of course, yer average Teabagger has no clue just what a "socialist" really is. Just that they disagree with him (with no reasoning as to why). So he must be a socialist. You're using the same type of "reasoning" when you stoop to labeling as "conservatives" anyone who hasn't been bamboozled by Snowden - including the sitting Democratic President of the United States, and someone who's been posting on DU for over 12 years.
You ignorant Snowden Fans are so concerned about laws & rules, but the fact that Snowden broke those same laws & rules doesn't seem to phase you. In the real world, Lil' Eddie is no better that Dick Cheney. The story in the OP proves that.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)adjective: authoritarian
1. favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, esp. that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)They want to sell it off to the highest bidder.
Tell you what - I'll take that "evil conservative" Barack Obama. You can have those FREEDOM LOVING LIBERTARIANS Ed Snowden, Rand Paul & Dick Cheney. See how far that gets you.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)by admitting that you don't really have an answer for them.
I am more concerned about the threat to my personal freedom posed by the NSA's blanket surveillance program, and less concerned about how closely Snowden fits your imagined avatar of Emmanuel Goldstein.
So rail on about the "cowardly liar" who "fled to Russia." Each time you do so, your credibility slips.
Demenace
(213 posts)This probably from dudes who are presently engaging industrial thief of their own right now but cannot recognize it. These people probably have downloaded or are downloading materials illegally from the internet right now but do not see these activities as illegal and even when they do come to this realization justify it away as taking back from the big corporation while they come on here and put on their moral suites while defending a thief!
These people get told over and over that countries have to do some unpleasant things in order to keep their citizens living in comfort but I guess, it is hard to get across to them given the narratives they have bought into.
But we will keep trying!
Demenace
(213 posts)My goodness, I could get rich lecturing on this subject because I see a lot of very uneducated people around here!
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)then uses that information to prop up American corporate interests.
To Progressives, such close intertwining of corporate and government institutions is not in the interests of the poor, working or middle classes.
They call us "Progressives" because we want to move forward rather than, like you argue, to maintain entrenched interests and the status quo.
bananas
(27,509 posts)
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)
“Drawing production was the domain of design draftsmen seated on stools in front of large drawing boards. These drawing boards disappeared 15-20 years ago, and now everything is produced on networked PC based CAD workstations.” - See more at: http://sourceable.net/how-engineering-has-changed-over-three-decades/
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)What a waste of paper and pencils ...and those wonderful German steel tools.
Psephos
(8,032 posts)Spent many long hours becoming a wizard with Rapidograph pens and a K&E drafting machine.
A skill that has not served me well in the long run...but it *was* very cool working with precision equipment.
randome
(34,845 posts)No context, no evidence. He just saw another opportunity in which he could sound important. That's why he will be an outcast for the rest of his life. He will have the shelf life of a Palin but eventually the media will tire of him.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]
bloomington-lib
(946 posts)Demenace
(213 posts)We are saying this information is not his to expose and that its exposure has far ranging national consequence. Sometime ago, I stated on a thread here that soon the business community will begin to react to Snowden and his pals when their actives begin to directly hit the pocket books of businesses and wait for it, it is coming very soon.
You go ask Boing and Lockheed Martin how they get their new concepts? Sometimes, people who are sheltered and live a pampered life work very hard to destroy their comfort.
I read comments around here of people saying the NSA is about fighting Terrorists and I simple shake my head. When did we become this uneducated about what some of our government branches are for?
Newsflash - National security is not solely about Terrorists! In fact, it is a small share of the pie of the National Security focus!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)consequences." How about the NSA not do this? How about they don't commit industrial espionage? Then it wouldn't become exposed, and the exposure wouldn't harm the country. How about they don't vacuum up all the data in the world? Then it wouldn't harm them when it is exposed.
This argument is similar to, "how about you don't kill people?" Then you won't get in trouble when somebody finds you. Your argument is akin to blaming the person who reported the murderer.
Demenace
(213 posts)That my friend is not an intelligent argument because this is what governments do to give you the comfort you enjoy today where ever you are posting from. The people of the United states created the NSA through their elected representative to do exactly the things it is doing, some you may not like, some you benefit from and some you just do not want to know anything about!
That my dear friend is how the world works!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)that Congress created the NSA so it could break laws, in terms of spying on us all and committing industrial espionage? That's how the world works?
More specifically, Congress created the NSA to spy on all of us US citizens?
Demenace
(213 posts)The NSA did not catch Snowden stealing from inside its own house, the NSA is not interested in you in your comfortable palace wherever that is. The NSA does a whole lot more than collect information and yes it is doing so, I know you will be shocked, with the legal blessing of the government of the United states.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)Are you saying that the NSA spies on us, probably with the blessing of the government, and that, even though it's illegal, we should just accept and ignore it? It's a little bit difficult to discern what you are trying to say because you aren't saying it directly. For example, instead of saying directly what point I am missing, you say I'm "focusing on the news of the day and missing the entire forest." This is a very general statement that is wide open for interpretation.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)This is not in doubt. You object to Snowden making us aware of this fact, because Snowden broke the law in telling us.
adjective: authoritarian
1. favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, esp. that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.
Demenace
(213 posts)What kind rant do you people get into that leaves you sounding uneducated? Are you saying the American government should never engage in espionage at all? Which planet do you people come from. This story is talking about the espionage involving foreign industrial concerns and you still bring it back to America rights, what is wrong with you people and comprehension these days?
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)You know this. Yet you virulently condemn anyone who speaks up against these programs, whether it be blanket collection of information on Americans not suspected of any crime, or eavesdropping on the phone conversations of allied heads-of-state, or engaging in clearly illegal industrial espionage. At no point do you even consider the dangers to our democracy posed by these programs.
Your only objective is to berate us for questioning authority and to demonize the individual who alerted us to the abuses of power by the NSA. When I ask why your little cabal of pro-NSA posters do this, the only answer is that Snowden broke the law followed by a number of ad hominem attacks on his character.
You, collectively, are appalled at Snowden's disobedience to authority - "he violated his oath", "he didn't follow proper channels," "he ran away and didn't turn himself in" - yet express little or no concern for the dangers to democracy presented by the reality of blanket surveillance.
That is classic Authoritarian behavior.
Demenace
(213 posts)Questioning authority begins with knowing what it is you are questioning. I do not agree with the NSA monitoring Americans on American soil because that has always been the social contract in place.
That is however different from saying the Government of my country cannot conduct activities that are part of the nature of every nation on earth because I have chosen to worship an individual or group. You should reflect on how you swallow every word and action from your boy Snowden because from where I stand that is the stereo-typical lack of challenging authority, in this case, the authority of the one who has made himself the owner of information he willfully stole from the American people!
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Allowing that "the Government of my country" should be able to engage in illegal activities because of our superior moral position or some other shaky premise flirts with Nationalism, and I'm opposed to that as well.
I'm not "swallowing every word" from Snowden, I'm looking at the evidence he's released. Evidence the veracity of which the NSA has not disputed. Yes - this evidence should be looked at very closely, yet you and your cabal try and shout down anyone doing so.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/09/1222306/-The-NSA-and-commercial-espionage
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras
Titled "Private networks are important", the slide names Petrobras along with the Swift network for global bank transfers, the French foreign ministry and Google. Several other targets on the list, which may have links to terrorist organisations and other operations that potentially threaten the US, were redacted.
In a similar vein, it presented a "network exploitation" document from Britain's GCHQ, which works closely with the NSA, that affirms the importance of targetting companies in strategic industries. One slide, headed "Results – what do we find?", notes that private network traffic is collected from energy companies, financial organisations and airlines, as well as foreign governments.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131112/08223925211/if-nsa-isnt-engaged-economic-espionage-why-is-ustr-considered-customer-intelligence.shtml
But that's certainly happening. The NY Times' giant profile of the NSA's activities that came out earlier this month included a list of "customers" for the NSA. Pay close attention to the last two on the list:
This huge investment in collection is driven by pressure from the agency’s “customers,” in government jargon, not only at the White House, Pentagon, F.B.I. and C.I.A., but also spread across the Departments of State and Energy, Homeland Security and Commerce, and the United States Trade Representative.
Now, one can make a (potentially compelling) argument that of course it's US policy to try to improve situations for American companies. And that's perfectly reasonable -- but it seems like a clearly bogus argument for the NSA to say it "does not do economic espionage" just because it (allegedly) does not do one particular tidbit of economic espionage: directly handing companies information. If, instead, it's spying on foreign companies and then providing that information to the USTR, you can assure that two things are happening: economic policies that help the special interests that have a close relationship with the USTR are getting extra favorable policies in their place, and some of that information is seeping out of the USTR to those companies anyway.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)The "arguments" you are making rely heavily on very general statements, but more importantly they rely on snark, specifically referring to Snowden as "your boy" is an excellent example. That actually weakens (further) your argument, such as it is. If you can state it clearly, using definite statements as opposed to wandering into the territory of forest and trees and such, we might get somewhere.
What I strongly suspect is that your position is based heavily on ideology. Because of this, you can't make a consistent argument that says anything specific about your position, but instead hints at ideas of positions so that you can not be held accountable for them later.
You are failing the Turing test.
Titonwan
(785 posts)Either they're paid or extremely ignorant of the situation as it stands. You can not possibly be in another category at this late date in time. Turing test indeed, they fail on many levels, at this point. Willful ignorance because 'their team' is in power.
What naif's some have become.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)I think this person could very well be highly pro-America, and feel like it's a bad thing for Snowden or anyone to hurt the country. Unfortunately, what the government is doing hurts the country a lot more, especially in the long run. This creates the weird clash of arguments sort of claiming that surveilance is bad, but mostly arguing against us who loudly condemn it. Also, he or she is really bad at arguing is that they are using a lot of platitudes and a lot of snarky labels instead of arguing from a more factual/informational point.
Hence, it might be snarky of me to accuse him/her of failing the Turing test. On the other hand, the arguments sound more like a robot blatting out pre-formatted phrases, interspersed with "my boy Snowden." It would benefit them and their arguments greatly if they learn to make them better.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)when its really been about economic imperialism tends to make the other countries against whom we are acting pretty angry.
Everything from our covert and overt involvement in Central America at the behest of the United Fruit Company to our involvement in the Mid-East at the behest of Big Oil, has been wrong headed and disastrous.
The fury it sparks AGAINST the US is completely un-productive and NOT helping to keep us safe by any means.
Some of us happen to be interested in tangible evidence of our government committing great wrongs against the world in the name of economic imperialism.
And exposing that at great risk to you personal safety is heroic.
The NSA has already said they haven't stopped any terrorist attacks. Their raison d'etre is economic imperialism. This is not how the "world works" - the US stands pretty much alone in the scope and breadth of their spying both on Americans and the rest of the world.
Demenace
(213 posts)There things nations do that are unpleasant and nations do these things after calculating the risks involved usually from getting caught by the target nations. It is not usual that a citizen of the United states assists the target nations with providing the proof!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)He has sparked a global conversation about what lengths a country should go to in order to maintain that.
The US has engendered enormous hostility with its actions - overt and covert in pursuit of economic hegemony. The US's actions in Iraq and the Mid-East on behalf of Big Oil have been nothing short of disastrous for all of us for example. For as many millions of people around the world who marched and protested and demonstrated against it, the PTB ignored us all.
Snowden has somehow managed to grab the world's attention and shine the spotlight on our criminality for all the world to see. Its way past time to rein ourselves in. That would do more to help our national security than virtually anything else. He's gotten the MIC's attention and forced Obama to come out into the light and start that conversation.
Its nothing short of a fucking miracle. If we can wake up more Americans to what agencies like the NSA are REALLY doing, there may be hope for us yet.
Its too late in the ME imho to repair the damage. Its obviously WAY too late in Central and South American to repair the damage.
Titonwan
(785 posts)and those in question always defend this illegal search and seizure. Always. Beware of these DU trolls. Some of them have 100,000 plus posts! Can you believe that crap? I know- I've had two penalties in two weeks over opposing their status quo agenda. It's to laugh at.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)that this is just how things are and we shouldn't worry about it. That Snowden pointed out the criminal things that the NSA is doing doesn't mean we should get mad at the NSA, it means we should be mad at Snowden. I reject this position as being damaging to democracy and self-governance. Your position promotes apathy.
Unfortunatly, how you are making your point is by using broad generalities, like comments about forests and trees, rather than by clearly stating what you mean. Then you accuse me of being stupid (and not being an expert on national security) because I can't understand what you are saying through those generalized sentences.
randome
(34,845 posts)In fact, that is the sole reason for the agency's existence.
Funny how Snowden didn't know this when he volunteered to work for them.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]
Demenace
(213 posts)Last time I checked the United states Supreme court has not said this is illegal or criminal!
Things are not criminal or illegal because you think or say so, and again this has nothing to do with your rights unless you are a foreign industry in which case, accept my apologies!
Wow, the level of understanding by these so called experts in foreign relations.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Nor did Congress.
An independent executive branch board has concluded that the National Security Agency’s long-running program to collect billions of Americans’ phone records is illegal and should end.
In a strongly worded report to be issued Thursday, the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board (PCLOB) said that the statute upon which the program was based, Section 215 of the USA Patriot Act, “does not provide an adequate basis to support this program.”
. . . .
The divided panel also concluded that the program raises serious threats to civil liberties, has shown limited value in countering terrorism and is not sustainable from a policy perspective.
“We have not identified a single instance involving a threat to the United States in which the telephone records program made a concrete difference in the outcome of a counterterrorism investigation,” said the report, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post. “Moreover, we are aware of no instance in which the program directly contributed to the discovery of a previously unknown terrorist plot or the disruption of a terrorist attack.”
Lots more information in the article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/independent-review-board-says-nsa-phone-data-program-is-illegal-and-should-end/2014/01/22/4cebd470-83dd-11e3-bbe5-6a2a3141e3a9_story.html
This program is completely unnecessary. It is easy to get a warrant to obtain records when needed.
The Constitution requires a warrant. No administration can conduct a program as obviously unconstitutional as the NSA surveillance.
Wouldn't it have been great if an employee of Freedom Industries had come forward and told W. Virginians that the tanks that spilled the toxic liquid into the W. Virginia river could easily leak?
Isn't it great that one employee from a tobacco company had the honesty and courage to come forward and tell the American people that the tobacco companies knew their products were poison?
Whistleblowers are as much a part of the democratic system and our justice system as are our elected officials.
Demenace
(213 posts)In case, you missed this topic, it is about espionage against foreign entities!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)The people of the United states created the NSA through their elected representative to do exactly the things it is doing, some you may not like, some you benefit from and some you just do not want to know anything about!
It's disingenuous to accuse him of changing the topic when he's replying to your own statement.
Demenace
(213 posts)Stay focused, we are talking about the espionage against foreign interests. The local stuff we can take care of locally by changing the laws to ensure they do not happen!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)WHAT YOU JUST SAID, you brush off their argument by claiming it's off topic? Wow.
Demenace
(213 posts)It is just that I have learnt over time that we as a people have developed the capacity to muddle the waters of any discourse by widen the scope so that at the end of the day, we are no longer talking about the original subject but something else, which at the end, does not further the understanding of the original subject in the first place.
I work to keep the subject on the original so I can learn from it!
You could be right on the local stuff but we must agree this thread is about the foreign activities of the NSA which should have nothing to do with our local concerns. That is the point I am trying to make all day.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)You are the one who JDP was replying to, he was replying to your statement. If his reply didn't fit the original topic, it was because YOU said something that was off-topic. Don't blame him for YOU being off-topic.
Response to Demenace (Reply #30)
Name removed Message auto-removed
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Oh, wait, it's not lies or false accusations.
He has exposed what could be called the largest crime syndicate in history, the NSA, and it's backed by our government.
Giving private corporations the ability to collect data on anyone or any company, what could go wrong? Why would anyone think they would gather information from one corporation and resell it to another?
Demenace
(213 posts)The Germans wage such activities against us, only difference is their citizens are educated enough on national issues and loyal to their country to not take their country's business and expose them for the world to see.
It seems that is something that is alien to Americans around here, I mean the education on national interests part and loyalty to one's country!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)Link?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Go back to the first post in this thread, and re-read the entire discussion.
The poster was talking about industrial espionage.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)This sub-thread was Randome saying that it was all about Snowden trying to remain relevant, then the post I replied to was saying that Snowden released information that was not his to release. Rereading it hasn't given me insight into what you are referring to that I got wrong.
The claim of the post I replied to was that Germany was doing the same thing, just that Germans didn't rat out their government for doing it. Simply stated, the argument is that we shouldn't care that our government is committing industrial espionage since the German government is also committing industrial espionage. I have reason to believe our government is doing so, but none that Germany is, hence I asked for a link.
What part of the post that I replied to am I missing?
Demenace
(213 posts)The Telegraph [link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/] - 1/26/2014 - [link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10421835/Germany-France-and-Spain-were-all-spying-on-citizens.html]
The spy agencies of Germany, France and Spain have all developed mass surveillance techniques for phone and internet activity despite their outrage over the Edward Snowden eavesdropping revelations
Leaked GCHQ documents point to a relationship between Spain’s intelligence agency and an unnamed British telecommunications company back in 2008. Spain’s National Intelligence Centre (CNI) reportedly made “great strides” through their relationship with the company, which provided them with equipment and reported back to GCHQ.
The files show that the countries have their own methods for the bulk monitoring of communications and have worked closely with GCHQ over the last five years, the Guardian said.
The three European states have been among the strongest critics of the revelations surrounding the activities of the US National Security Agency (NSA).
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)creating an aparatus to collect phone/internet data. However, the claim of the post I replied to states that Germany is using it for industrial espionage, and I don't see anything in your post about that. Has there been any indication that Germany is using the data it collects for espionage?
Demenace
(213 posts)We may need to learn something about loyalty to ones country from them. And by the way, because you do not personally know how the Germans engage in industrial espionage does not prove they are not neck deep in it.
It only proves you just do not know about it!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)But I didn't make the claim that they were. There was a claim made earlier that Germany was doing it too, which was not substantiated. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.
Demenace
(213 posts)You only accept the reality that fits your mindset. The information I provided came from the same source you are quoting and swearing by against the NSA but when that same source undercuts your worldview, you simply ignore it.
If you believe Snowden on the NSA then by logic I need not provide any other proof of the Germans doing the same thing other than point to your pal Snowden who is talking about the United states and Germany doing it!
Sometimes, it is beneficial to accept when one has not thought something through!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)Is it buried in one of the sub-links off that page? If so, which one?
"Sometimes, it is beneficial to accept when one has not thought something through!" I couldn't agree more.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Your question was not "So, the Germans are committing industrial espionage, too?"
Your question, clearly stated, was a reference to the initial Snowden revelations about internet communications and phone numbers and things of that nature:
Unless, of course, the Germans do things differently than most countries, and they somehow "secure" their industrial secrets by chatting about them on the internet...?
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)My question "So the Germans are vacuuming..." was referring to the claim that Germans did it too, meaning they vacuumed up data and used it for industrial espionage. you are entirely correct in that the way I phrased the question - "using it to their advantage" - did not specify beyond a doubt that I was referring to industrial espionage, and I would like to correct that error.
The argument, as I read it, is that it's okay for us to commit industrial espionage because Germany is doing it to. So my question is whether there is any evidence Germany is committing industrial espionage. Granted that they, along with other countries, are vacuuming up data just as we are.
As a whole, the argument seems to be suggesting that this is just how the world works - countries spy on their people, their companies, and other country's people and companies. Therefore we shouldn't be mad about it happening. I disagree with that. We have laws that say the government shouldn't spy on us (it's citizens), and having a government commit industrial espionage would also be very damaging.
MADem
(135,425 posts)save those with direct skin in the game.
Excesses are certainly happening in this regard, I don't disagree with that at all, but to suggest that countries don't do this as a matter of course is naive. And plenty of them (cough-Pootie-cough) are quite aggressive and heavy-handed when they intrude. The Chinese have a very large military unit that does nothing but try to hack military and industrial computers around the world. It's a full time gig.
The reason that Germany, France, Brazil, etc. aren't continuing to fume after a quick little "wet hen" display for their own populations' consumption is because everybody DOES do it. Apparently the only one who doesn't know this is Moscow Ed.
Old article, but interesting: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/Backchannels/2013/1015/NSA-spying-Everyone-does-it
European Union "law does not explicitly protect against access by European intelligence services, but member states law and practice does," Ralf Bendrath, the senior policy adviser to a German member of the European Parliament, told Ars.
Elsewhere? Russia maintains a vast domestic surveillance state of its own. A report in Russia last week alleged that the government's FSB security service has installed a surveillance system that will enable them to intercept and read virtually every digital communication in Sochi during the 2014 winter Olympics.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)to hear that the NSA was doing industrial espionage. I have not heard of any other country doing this, except as speculation by people who, as far as I know, have no access to direct information. Snowden did have access. It also would not surprise me a whole lot if other countries were doing it, especially as you say, China.
In the context of the argument here, I contend that just because other countries are doing it is not a reason that we should, also. The correct response would be to try to limit what other countries are doing in terms of industrial espionage. The solution is to stop it, not to do it ourselves - kind of along the lines of two wrongs don't make a right.
For surveillance by a country of it's own people, specifically by the NSA of us (citizens, or consumers if you prefer), this is destructive to democracy or more generally, to self-governance in that people will be afraid to make their voices heard if it conflicts with what the government is doing. There have been some posts here linking to reports that reporters won't dig into stories for fear of retaliation. So in sort, I believe that the NSA spying on us is bad because it allows our government to become fascist or a dictatorship, or is leading in that direction.
The arguments presented here seem to be that we should not fight back against this which I, obviously, disagree with.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Pootie's FSB does the same thing. The only difference is, they recruit cyberwhizkids of the Snowden stripe to do their hacking for them, rather than put them through boot camp and in uniform. The result is the same.
It could be because I've lived in countries where spying was part of the landscape, but I've never felt that I had any "guarantee" of privacy on the telephone (you could hear the idiots from SAVAK breathing on the phone in Iran--they'd tap the frigging line with one of those hand held phone thingys that linemen use to check a line and the morons wouldn't take out the little disk from the part where one spoke into the handset). That low expectation translated to the internet for me--I assume some asshole is looking, and for this reason, I keep a low profile in terms of my personal details.
When we go outside our homes (either physically, or virtually) we expose ourselves to surveillance--you can't walk ten steps in downtown NYC without having your picture taken; and nearly as much in any major city. In London, it's more onerous than NYC.
I don't see this reducing, in fact, I see it going the other way as more and more people sign up for "personal surveillance" at the bargain price of twenty nine bucks a month!
It's not just video surveillance (and we all know about face recognition software), we "consent to be tracked" by carrying a cellphone with us. Is this good or bad? If someone is killing their spouse and trying to establish an alibi, those tower pings can "out" a liar. If someone has gone off the road and they're upside-down in a ditch in the freezing cold, those tower pings can save a life. If someone doesn't want the "government" to know what they're up to, they'd better put their cellphone in a lead lined box, or something!
And, if you're the "wrong" nationality in some parts of the world, you'll keep running into the same cab driver or street sweeper, no matter what part of town you find yourself in. Funny how that works! Some people who do that work are better than others--if you can't see your tail, that doesn't necessarily mean you're not being watched! No doubt we put our own HUMINT (hopefully they've gotten a little better than the clodhoppers from the FBI stumbling around mosques trying to sniff out the "suspicious characters" and not blending in at all) on people we have an interest in, as well. It's really not news, it's just that we haven't talked much about this shit (aside from a sustained but --slowly-- lessening indictment of all Muslims in the post-Nahn Wun Wun age) since, ostensibly, the Cold War was declared "Over." I've gotta say, I think we probably need to back that assertion up...it's not "over"--it's just shifted from a military to an economic sphere. He (or she) with the most "customer consumers" wins!
I think people can try to "fight back," I just don't know how much success they'll have, realistically. The willy-nilly collection of data might stop by USA, but the mantle will only be taken up by Russia or China--and if we think they wouldn't have any use for our "domestic" information, I rather doubt that they'd turn it down if they could get at it. Perhaps the solution is a different kind of internet--I've seen some discussions of that here; going the peer-to-peer route, for example, but I'm not tech-savvy enough to jump on any bandwagons that offer that as a solution.
We're living in different times, it's as profound as the period between, say 1910 and 1950, with all the changes those decades brought. The person who was born into a home without central heat, with gas lights if they were lucky, but no electricity, with no radio or telephone, by the time they were forty had all those things, and a motor car and easy access to air travel, to boot. It was a cornucopia of progress that seemed never ending--the sky was the limit. We're living in different (the Chinese would say "interesting" I suspect) times now, and I suspect that our future will be very different from the past. Will this be for better or worse? Hard to know. Time, as it always does, will tell!
Let me apologize for going on and on like this...I don't have any answers (as you can tell by my comments) but I think the discussion is interesting. There will always be a tension between freedom and security, one that is far more complex than old Ben Franklin, who didn't have a laptop or a cellphone, could have ever envisioned.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)So in response to your last paragraph, it's cool 
I agree that there's a lot of spying going on. However, I also think it hurts the country and the world, and we should fight against it or at least disagree with it. Honestly, I don't see it getting better and kind of fear what will become of the country/world because of it (the spying).
So yeah, really bad things happen in some countries. That shouldn't be the excuse to allow those same things to happen here - I'd rather we strive for the top rather than race to the bottom. "Well China does it" just isn't good reason to say we should do it. As you said, when we go outside our home we expose ourselves to surveillance. What can we do about that? I'm seriously thinking of going back to using cash, mostly because the Target data breach shows how vulnerable we are to just basic screw-ups by companies. But also, it would make tracking slightly more difficult.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I think the discussion is a good one to have, no matter what the eventual outcome. The only discussions we regret are the ones we didn't have, I think.
I am very reluctant to use plastic and only do so in a pinch (with the exception of occasional forays to Amazon). I usually go to the bank, get some cash, and spend it in brick/mortar stores. I'm pretty cheap, though, I don't do an awful lot of consuming.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)I'm quiet, so I get an idea and post it, but what I post is lacking a lot of background. Then people get mad and we have a debate. That's cool.
This debate is actually very good in terms of forcing each of us (or most of us) to carefully state what we mean, try to clear things up and such. Good practice all around.
Bricks are cool. Really cool!
Demenace
(213 posts)...the soapbox gets occupied by the dishonest or uneducated! We need to stop standing on the side lines. We need to engage these fake intellectuals so they understand their views are not the only universal truths!
Thank you for telling him/her what he/she cannot understand!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)This post seems to be kind of a generalized mash of agreement that I don't understand something, but lacks any specifics to which I can respond.
Demenace
(213 posts)If you cannot figure out the simply enough conversations we are having, how do I expect you to become an expert in the complexities of National security!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)or the point you are making. Instead, you are attacking me as being unable to "figure out the simply enough conversations" and therefore being unable to become an expert on national security, which somehow means you don't need to clarify the point you are trying to make - I am too dumb to get it.
Sorry, but when you can't make a point clearly in order to win over the people who disagree with you, the fault is yours.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I've got to get back to work mindwalker_i. Good luck with this. I'll check back in later...
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)I am making a conscious effort to reply strictly to the arguments being made, but it does take some effort to parse through some of this stuff. Unfortunately, asking for clarification has resulted in being, essentially, called stupid for not understanding it the first time.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)That always works out well...
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)What you wrote:
Yeah, this guy really wants to come home, doesn't he?
No context, no evidence. He just saw another opportunity in which he could sound important. That's why he will be an outcast for the rest of his life. He will have the shelf life of a Palin but eventually the media will tire of him.
Oh, no you didn't write that, that was randome's post. That's who I was replying to. How do you know what he was talking about? I see no mention of Germans or education. How can I know what you are talking about?
Let's take a stab at it though, you seem to be implying that because the Germans are better educated and have a stronger sense of country that is the reason they don't complain about their government spying. Do I follow you so far? Do the German people care if the German government spies on it's own citizens that have done no wrong? Do the German people know their government is doing industrial spying? Do you know the German government is doing industrial spying?
So if the Germans are spying, that means everything the NSA has and is doing is alright?
There is a difference between loyalty to one's country and what it stands for, and loyalty to the people that are perverting it. Something for you to think about.
Do I think you may be a sock puppet? Do I think you are just trying to create a diversion from the actual subject of this thread? Do you know what the answer is to these last two questions? I do.
Tippy
(4,610 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)Just like Julian will go to Sweden. They'll go when there is no other way to get the media attention.
fasttense
(17,301 posts)A lot of what Snowden exposed previously clearly shows that the NSA is nothing more than a tool for corporate power and control. The NSA even allows corporations to participate in collecting the data.
Capitalism and totalitarian governments fit hand and glove because capitalism is all about economic control by a few wealthy psychopaths. It's what our founding fathers rose up against at the Boston Tea Party - The control of the West Indian Tea Company over the Americas. So corporations using the NSA to do their dirty work is no surprise since corporations used the royals of feudalism to do their dirty work as well.
When Americans get tired of corporations controlling their every waking moment, much like the kings and queens of feudalism, maybe then they will revolt....or not.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)...is dipped in the well of fascism, there are no lines where business ends and government begins.
- They are one and the same.
K&R
Demeter
(85,373 posts)You need to be quoted early and often.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Hey ...will the NSA spy on itself too and report its findings to the people?
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)Oh shut the fuck up, Comrade Eddie.
You are a media whore...you were also said to be living a "quiet life" in Russia...but then you blather about returning to America.
You are a fucking MESS! And a TRAITOR to boot.
I'm sick of your self-centered bullshit.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Demenace
(213 posts)They just are not seeing anything at all! What is it about you not realizing your right is equally not safe in the hands of Eddie and his pals if he is sharing it with those who understand the true value of the information you are just yapping about?
I was told of instances in history when people have gladly cheered their own destruction but I never quite understood the reasoning behind the behaviors of such people, now a get it. People will gladly dance along to their execution if you give them a shiny object to follow. In this case, the shiny objects are the need to worship a thief and a self promoting advocate!
A sad commentary on a otherwise educated people!
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Demenace
(213 posts)I can deal it that. Just tells me your opinion is just that an opinion too!
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
treestar
(82,383 posts)so why believe them?
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Demenace
(213 posts)According to you, 'now, no conclusions can be made' but when Snowden makes his little trips from his hiding place in Russia, the Snowden truth squad will pop up to re-affirm his and their position while denying any views that challenge this positions!
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)That's true. Here your own government is commiting crimes (see recent reports on the legality of the program", and industrial espionage) and you blame the person who exposed the crimes. I think it's safe to say you don't care that the crimes are being committed, so the conclusion is that you're taking Nixon's position - if the government does it, it's not illegal. We should throw away that stupid piece of paper that limits what government can do.
Demenace
(213 posts)Please, provide a link to the pronouncement from the Supreme court of the legality of the NSA program. Until you do that, I will be here all week!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)have not ruled NSA actions illegal, that means they ARE legal?
SCOTUS who legally *cough* shut down vote counting in Florida in order to install GW Bush?
Or our own executive branch that legally *cough* summarily executes American citizens without trial?
Or our own legislative branch that legally *cough* overthrows Constitutional rights aka the Patriot Act?
I could go on and on.
The US has a long history of "legal" actions that aren't really. But you knew that.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)What I was referring to was the article in the NY Times which referred to the commission, set up by Obama, that concluded that the NSA spying was illegal. I can't find that article, but here is one that links to many other articles:
link
There have also been quite a few posts here on DU about it.
The core of the argument, generally, is that the collection of phone and data records by the NSA violates the 4th amendment, and the recent conclusion from the panel was that the section of the patriot act used to justify the legality did not, in fact, do so. That's the legal aspect. What I and may other people contend is that having the government spy on its citizens are very bad for democracy, specifically that people won't argue against what their government is doing because they are afraid of retaliation from that government.
The arguments presented in this thread appear to be brushing off concerns about the NSA spying, in effect saying that it doesn't matter for a variety of reasons: it's just metadata so it's not really spying, or in this case about industrial espionage, Germany is doing it too so we shouldn't worry about it. The conclusion is then that we (citizens) should let the government/NSA do whatever they are doing regardless of whether it will be damaging to the country or democracy.
But I'm sure I'm just too stupid to understand your argument.
Demenace
(213 posts)Because you think so?
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)From the very top of the article:
Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board –
Which Congress Made An Independent Agency in 2007, But Which Just Became Operational – Says NSA Spying Is ILLEGAL AND UNNECESSARY
Here, let me help you with more of the page:
Many experts – including congress members – say that the NSA’s spying program is illegal.
As does the official panel created by President Obama to review NSA spying, made up of top former White House officials and other government insiders, including the head of counter-terrorism under Clinton and Bush and former deputy CIA director Michael J. Morrell
I know, I know, they are not the Supreme Court. I addressed that in an earlier post but let me say it again: The supreme court hasn't gotten the case yet and they haven't ruled on it. It's fair to argue that laws should be readable to people, so the people don't need to always go to the supreme court to clarify the meaning of laws. In the case of the fourth amendment to the constitution, the meaning seems pretty clear. In other opinions, notably by the panel that Obama created, the justification for the mass data-collection is based on section 215 of the patriot act, and that panel concluded that section 215 didn't authorize it.
Demenace
(213 posts)The local activities may be declared illegal some day by the Supreme court but until that day, always add the line 'it may be' next to the illegal when you address the local issues. That my friend is the honesty that is missing in the discourse around here and note I said that this is in relation to the local stuff which is not the subject of this thread in the first place.
Did I help you out a little?
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)Demenace
(213 posts)...about the local stuff, right?
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Demenace
(213 posts)You know, sometimes in life you get things you do not like but learn to live with them! You really have to understand to life is not always about what you personally like and agree with!
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
treestar
(82,383 posts)No, many share that opinion.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)MyNameGoesHere
(7,638 posts)he is a traitor and should be tried for treason? I am sure your vast knowledge of treason trials in the USA can back that up right?
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)"Shut the fuck up," indeed.
jsr
(7,712 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
spin
(17,493 posts)that will supplement its budget.
More likely is that the 1% want to have the advantage of insider trading so they can become even richer.
nenagh
(1,925 posts)...
polynomial
(750 posts)Judas was a whistle blower
Some could argue that besides he took thirty silver coins so maybe not. He was engulfed in grief then hallucinated. Those were the days of open government and corruption. The basic theory of tyranny by crucifixion, laws of man made on the fly seems if anyone speaks freely against the Royal Phobia, You wind up hanging on a stick for all to view.
Gee at least in America in these modern times anyone whistle blower could flee the country then get trashed by the inferno of the mainstream media. Imagine the Government is spying on industry, yikes. Reminds me of the movie Casa Blanca with Bogart in his business called Ricks café. The gendarme walks in and says you mean there is gambling going on in here?
Yes, the government, no just certain creepy scoundrels are lurking with sophisticated science developed with money by you and me paid in taxes. What is behind closed doors is really trickle down technology, by Halliburton and Boeing IBM, Rockwell or those country favorite satellite companies like Russia, or China. They sure are not playing Johnny Cash music. Yep the NSA has the most advanced gestapo meter your taxes could buy.
Secret stuff no actually new ways to profiteer, and swindle the world not just American tax payers. Let’s play fair if you swindle cheat and lie do it to everyone. Or what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance", A quantum definition that relates to this secret Metadata collection can let all America know of the existence of God. So that’s what the big computer in Salt Lake city Utah is for. Sounds like its missing an automobile elevator. Better see if Romney is preparing a deal with China. Wow what an idea sell off Booze Allen and the Carlyle Group make some money ditching the political issue. Get rid of the Crawford ranch too, but make sure Bush Nazi family goes with the deal.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Where to place himself in NSA and guess what he did, he was a spy plain and simple. Now he is going to say something about other spying happening. I guess he "accidently" came upon this information while working in the NSA. This information is just another trail to proving he is a spy working for whom is not known but it will turn up one of these days. He will probably cross the wrong one and punishment will be swift and it will not be the USA.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)NSA my hero! 
Indi Guy
(3,992 posts)
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)German mainstream TV:
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts).
