Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito lose Meredith Kercher murder appeal

[alp227]

Source: The Guardian

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have lost their appeal against convictions for the murder of the British student Meredith Kercher, a dramatic development in the long-running legal saga which paves the way for a possible extradition tussle between Italy and the United States.

Delivering its ruling at the end of the defendants' four-month-long second appeal, the Florence court of appeal upheld the guilty verdicts for both the 26-year-old American student and her Italian ex-boyfriend, who have protested their innocence for years.

The court sentenced Knox to 28 years and six months in jail, while Sollecito was sentenced to 25 years. Sollecito was deemed to be a flight risk and is to have his passport confiscated.

Though it is bound to come as a huge psychological blow for Seattle-based Knox, the verdict is not likely to have any immediate logistical impact on her as it will only become definitive if confirmed by Italy's top appeals court, and only then would Rome be in a position to request her extradition.

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/30/amanda-knox-raffaele-sollecito-lose-meredith-kercher-murder-appeal

---

Uh oh. Italy could use the extradition of Knox as a bargaining chip for trade agreements or other foreign relations. I hope Eric Holder and whoever succeeds him at DOJ stand up for Knox.

And I wonder if I'll ever set foot in Italy in my lifetime because of this.

[cab67]

1. I was supposed to attend a meeting in Italy this summer....

....but I am now reconsidering.

Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito aren't just innocent of this crime - they're obviously innocent. I am filled with sympathy for the family of Ms Kercher, but prosecuting two people who clearly had nothing to do with her murder accomplishes nothing except generate more ill will.

[flamingdem]

4. The Italians have made international fools out of themselves

You'll be fine but I understand your doubts about going!

[Jeneral2885]

8. what a stupid reason

go ahead boycott Italy. It's not as if American courts are the best in the world. And I doubt you give a tear for Meredith at all.

[cab67]

23. Your response is offensive.

As I stated, I grieve for Ms Kercher. She is the true victim here. No one ever said otherwise, and I would like an apology for the insinuation that I care nothing for her memory.

Nor did I claim our courts were necessarily the best. That being said, ours don't give prosecutors do-overs when they lose a case, which is an improvement over the system in Italy.

[Demenace]

121. No, it is not offensive...

How many Americans have had their cases dismissed here after committing serious crimes abroad? How many non Americans have been convicted without any real evidence except our fears.

Is this not the country that let George Zimmerman walk and is trying to execute a Mexican kid whose conviction is questionable at best?

Why is it that we are quick to dismiss the legal systems of other countries when an American is involved? You and I were not in the room or crime scene with the alleged crimes occurred, a judicial system has determined that this is the verdict, why are we trying hard to discredit their system?

After all, some here have decided this convicted American should just ignore the Italian judicial system if she was convicted as if that will solved the problem. Next time, you want an Italian to face the American legal system, you need to look yourself in the mirror and said you have that right to demand that it happens to way you want it!


Justice becomes meaningless when we can decide to ignore it when it does not fit our preference, just saying...

[cab67]

133. I'm still awaiting your apology.

I asked for the apology for your insulting insinuation that I didn't care about the victim or her family in this case. I do. Your assumption that I don't was offensive.

In any event, I never said anything about disregarding any country's judicial system. I cannot speak for others on this forum - please address what I said, not what someone else said.

Moreover, the fact that Americans have escaped punishment for crimes in other countries (including Italy - I'm well aware of the Cavalese cable car disaster and would agree that the pilots involved should be in prison) does not, in any way, justify the prosecution and conviction of a clearly innocent person who happens to be American.

There are several factors that led to this wrongful conviction. Most of them are universally present in the judicial systems of all Western democracies. Following a gruesome crime, the police focus on someone who, in their estimation, isn't behaving as they think she should. She barely spoke the language, didn't have a lawyer present, and made inconsistent statements following a long, aggressive interrogation - conditions known to prompt false confessions no matter where they occur. The prosecutor in this case doesn't seem to realize that the satanic ritual abuse scare ended sometime in the 1990's. The forensic team was incompetent to the point of evoking laughter during the first appeal when a videotape was shown of their operation. Meanwhile, the tabloids picked this up and ran with it, spreading wild and outlandish stories that, in each case, have been debunked. Police and prosecutorial incompetence and irrationality can be found in every country in the world. Media bias can shape juries here as well as anywhere. They just happened to occur in Italy in this one case, and it led to a gross injustice.

The one peculiarity to the Italian system that compounded the problem was the ability of prosecutors to appeal an aquittal. There was no legitimate physical evidence, and the scenarios dreamed up by the prosecutors didn't even pass a straight-face test. In most Western democracies, the acquittal following the first appeal would have ended it.

[pnwmom]

60. American courts wouldn't have convicted geologists for manslaughter for not predicting an earthquake

and they wouldn't have found Amanda guilty of this crime.

If a prosecutor tried to put forth a poop-in-the-toilet motive he'd be laughed out of court.

I have new respect for the US system of justice, at least compared to Italy's medieval, science-and-logic-free system.

[Scairp]

74. OMG

When I read that however many years ago it was, I thought it was a joke. That is the Italian justice system, totally fucked up.

[pnwmom]

80. No joke. They're appealing it now. n/t

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

172. it would help if the real reasons were disclosed

as usual, the U.S. media do a piss poor job of explaining stuff that happens in other countries. The geologists were not convicted because they didn't predict the earthquake - they were convicted because they purposedly and negligently withheld information about the severity of an earthquake which ended up causing deaths and destroyed a few small towns.

For over two weeks, these geologists did not release data that the civil protection agencies would have used to prepare emergency and contingency plans. There had been stronger seismic activity for quite some time, some of which - as revealed during the investigation - would have made any geologist think that a stronger quake was going to happen relatively soon.

Instead, these people held on to this information and, thanks to their negligence, people ended up losing their lives needlessly.

That's why they were convicted.

[pnwmom]

184. That is a lie. There was NO information collected before the earthquake that would have led any

geologist to suspect that a stronger earthquake was coming soon.

The science of geology hasn't developed to that point. Millions of people in California and Washington would feel much safer if there as a way to predict large earthquakes from small ones, but there is NOT. There wasn't anything hidden -- everyone could feel the swarms of small earthquakes. The question was whether they meant anything. And the scientists said that no, they weren't predictive because they were happening in an earthquake zone. Small earthquakes like that happened frequently and didn't mean there was an increased risk of a big one. The state of the art has NOT developed to the point where a geologist could have said anything more.

I got my information not from the mass media in the US but from reputable scientific organizations who were outraged by Italy's treatment of the scientists and sought to correct the misinformation about the state of the science.

http://www.geosociety.org/news/pr/12-76.htm

Boulder, Colorado, USA -- The following (revised) statement was issued today by the Geological Society of America. Scientists’ names have been corrected. GSA regrets the error.

On 22 October, 2012, an Italian court convicted six internationally respected scientists of manslaughter. The scientists Enzo Boschi, Giulio Selvaggi, Franco Barberi, Claudio Eva, Mauro Dolce, and Gian Michele Calvi have been sentenced to prison terms, barred from public office, and ordered to pay court costs and damages.

Their offense could have been avoided by precisely predicting the timing and nature of the tragic 2009 earthquake in L’Aquila. However, such precise, short-term earthquake prediction of the type evidently sought by L’Aquila is currently impossible. Because of the ungainly complexity of earthquake systems, knowledge of physical details is incomplete; the diverse expressions of earthquake processes deliver contradictory messages; and measurements of earthquake phenomena can be inaccurate. Glaringly, the indictment accused the scientists of having provided “incomplete”, “contradictory”, and “inaccurate” information.

The Geological Society of America objects in the strongest terms to bringing scientists to court for doing their job and decries this judgment as detrimental to future positive public communication and discourse. Even if an appeal to a higher court reverses the judgment, damage has been done. The very fact of the trial, and now the verdict rendered, has had a chilling effect on the geoscience community.

The actions of this court will harm interdisciplinary efforts to mitigate loss of life and property from earthquakes or any other natural phenomena. There is now NO incentive for Italian geoscientists to participate in national efforts to ‘forecast and prevent’ major risks. The task before us now is mitigating, in Italy and other nations and regions, the impact of this ‘court-rendered seismic shock.’ Through concerted repairing of institutional and professional damage, scientists must continue to engage in efforts to better understand potential damage from natural hazards and to better communicate the uncertainties associated with “prediction.”

Contact:
George H. Davis
President, Geological Society of America

[Scairp]

71. It's not a stupid reason

I had already decided to boycott Italy, a place I've been dying to visit, because of this. I would be afraid, especially if something happened while I was there. They have a person in prison for Meredith's murder. Wrongly convicting additional people, especially twice (or is it three times now?), does not give justice to Meredith or her family. They have zilch for evidence. The first prosecutor was under indictment himself and was still allowed to practice law. That is the Italian legal system, criminals try others for crimes. Totally corrupt and chaotic. And American courts, flawed though they are, are still way better than almost any other in the world, and miles better than Italy. It seems they don't know their ass from their elbow there.

[pnwmom]

81. I can't believe Americans keep sending their college students there. What loving parent

would trust that system?

[CTyankee]

109. there are some great programs from terrific schools there for college kids.

I am interested in one of the University of California in Siena for my grandson, who speaks fluent Italian. He is currently in a Foreign Language School (public) in Glendale, CA in which his classes are 90% in Italian and 10% in English. He is of Italian heritage on his father's side. Why shouldn't parents of students with a cultural heritage in Italy want their children to enjoy it?

[pnwmom]

111. My sister went to one of them -- in Perugia -- and so did my best friend. But neither of them

would send a child there knowing what we know now. The combination of anti-Americanism plus a screwed-up justice system makes it too much of a risk.

Amanda was a perfectly normal college kid. If this happened to her, it could have happened to any of ours.

[CTyankee]

113. I'm not afraid. I'll be on my fifth trip to Italy in mid March.

[Walk away]

132. My two college age nieces will not go to a Red State schools...

because of the deadly anti- women laws. My family doesn't even vacation in the backward states because a young woman could end up dead or hooked up to a machine and braindead because of a bad pregnancy.
We love Italy but it would make me think twice about letting them go alone.

[Scairp]

148. Before this I would have done

Who would have ever imagined something like this would occur? It's utter madness.

[question everything]

33. I thought that they actually found someone guilty

not sure whether it was the boy friend. But clearly it was not Amanda Knox.

[geek tragedy]

35. they did. they convicted a guy of raping and murdering her.

they gave him 16 years.

Shortened sentence so that they could also try to grab some headlines by throwing an American student in jail claiming a satanic sex ring.

[question everything]

140. This is really crazy

One has to wonder what the Italians themselves think of this kind of "justice" system.

[pnwmom]

58. I will be boycotting everything Italian. I wish everyone would.

Welcome to DU, cab67!

[liskddksil]

2. Remind never to visit Italy

what a crock.

[flamingdem]

3. I hope Sollecito can hightail it out of there

and that he has this planned.

[atreides1]

9. Nope

He attended the trial and had his passport confiscated by the Italian police when the verdict was announced! Looks like he's headed back to prison...

[Demenace]

124. This is what we have become now...

People who advocate that others become fugitives from the law!

[Renew Deal]

5. It's a joke

[madaboutharry]

6. Italy has disgraced itself.

What a sham.

[geek tragedy]

7. Italian judicial system is the worst joke in Europe nt

[another_liberal]

10. I know little detail about this case . . .

Why does everyone here think Amanda is innocent? No doubt a great injustice has been done if she is, but what is the case in her favor?

[geek tragedy]

12. the complete lack of evidence against her. not a single piece of evidence tying her

to the crime scene, plus bizarre, utterly implausible, and always changing theories from the prosecution (first it was a satanic sex romp gone wrong, now they claim the murder was committed because someone took a huge dump in a toilet--seriously).

[savalez]

16. The link says her DNA was on the knife.

[another_liberal]

19. A commonly used knife that was in her apartment for how long?

That hardly seems reason enough to jail her for murder. Personally, I would need a great deal more to vote for conviction.

[geek tragedy]

21. the victims' DNA wasn't nt

[cab67]

26. yes, it was.

It was a kitchen knife in her boyfriend's apartment. They cooked meals together there. It would be shocking if her DNA was not on the knife.

Tellingly, the victim's DNA wasn't on it. The prosecutors claimed that it was, but those claims were thoroughly debunked during the first appeal.

[StevieM]

32. And the knife in question wasn't actually the murder weapon. That was made clear by

the nature of the wound.

[another_liberal]

47. It was a knife in her boyfriend's apartment then . . .

Her DNA on it is still nothing in the way of damning proof.

[Demenace]

127. I will advice you check for yourself what the details are...

...because there is so much spin on this case from the American side of the narrative. I would not rely on folks around here to give you the details free of their preferred narrative!

[closeupready]

13. Because she's pretty? I can't figure that out either.

Also, these comments about the joke of an Italian judicial system are nonsense.

[geek tragedy]

22. Because there's no evidence and every theory the prosecution has offered

has been batshit insane--hard to tell which is worse, the claim that it was a satanic sex romp or that they murdered someone because a giant shit had been left in a toilet

[Chakab]

24. Oh...so you're fond of the Italian justice system?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/23/world/europe/italy-convicts-7-for-failure-to-warn-of-quake.html?_r=0

[closeupready]

30. OJ Simpson.

[Chakab]

40. You think that rich assholes getting away with murder is unique to American jurisprudence

and hasn't been a recurring phenomenon since time immemorial in every organized society that's ever had anything even resembling a criminal justice system?

The US justice system has plenty of problems, but generally, prosecutors who've been indicted for misconduct and have a history being obsessed with satanism aren't allowed to continue prosecuting cases.

I initially assumed that Knox was guilty, but after I did some research on the case, I realized pretty quickly that the entire thing was a farce. I suggest that you do the same instead of clinging to the assumption that this whole thing is just a bunch of ugly Americans sticking together. What happened to Knox and Solecito was a gross miscarriage of justice.

[sked14]

42. OJ Simpson?

He's sitting in a NV prison for armed robbery and kidnapping, rightly so.

[closeupready]

46. He is indeed, while Nicole Brown Simpson's murderer remains at large.

[sked14]

48. And of course, as soon as he's released,

he'll continue his search for the real killer.

[JustAnotherGen]

102. And The Zimpig

[maxsolomon]

25. that's one of the reasons she was CONVICTED

it's slut-shaming.

she
a. dared to have sex
b. admitted it
c. wasn't ashamed of it
d. dared to smoke weed
e. admitted it
f. wasn't ashamed of it

that 2 trials have now convicted them is shameful for italy. rudy guede raped and killed meredith kercher. to compound that tragedy by persecuting Knox and Sollecito is a travesty.

Guede will be eligible for parole by the time Italy figures a way to save face and stop persecuting these 2.

[StevieM]

50. Absolutely agreed. This is nothing more than sexual violence (eom)

[sked14]

34. Maybe because there's not a shred of of evidence against her,

no physical or forensic, and the original prosecutor was corrupt as hell.

[Demenace]

131. The typical American attitude to dismiss that which it cannot understand...

...but you ask the same people about the judicial system that has held Afghan kids and adults for over a decade without evidence nor trails about how theirs is better than the Italians!

[closeupready]

149. Thank you.

[maxsolomon]

183. Sweet Jesus I'm tired of that deflection.

Yes, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. We understand that the Italian Justice system is not ours. But we also see that it is reaching a conclusion that defies reason.

I would argue that it is the European inability to understand Americans that led directly to her conviction and Tabloid crucifixion.

This has fuck all to do with Guantanamo - which 99.99% of the posters on this website wanted closed the day it opened.

[sked14]

17. The DNA was tainted,

the original prosecutor was corrupt, there wasn't one shred of physical evidence that she had anything to do with the murder.

[leftyohiolib]

122. in fact she wasnt even there. u forgot that one

[Chakab]

18. Maybe you should do some research into the farce of a case that police built against her and the

prosecutor who was allowed to stay on the case in spite of the fact that he was facing charges for abuse of office and had a history of falsely accusing people of being involved with satanic cults.

[another_liberal]

45. Hmmmm?

That does sound highly questionable.

[msanthrope]

43. I'm a criminal defense attorney who can read Italian. She's guilty as hell.

Her parents were smart enough to hire a PR firm that likes to describe the Italian justice system as corrupt and inept, and that works for people who can't read the court papers....

But the DNA trail, combined with her behavior makes for a conviction. It's a bit of an OJ redux--you read Petrocelli and Bugliosi and realize that he evidence was there, all along.

Here's a pretty good website with very good legal sources.....

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

[another_liberal]

44. Thanks for the link.

I will check it out.

[pnwmom]

69. Here's a non-hate site to check out, with evidence from scientists and other professionals.

injusticeinperugia.com

and another: murderofmeredithkercher.com


And there's an ebook that can be "borrowed" for free on Amazon. "The Forgotten Killer."

[Chakab]

54. Does reading the documents in Italian place Kercher's DNA on the so-called

murder weapon or make it fit her wounds? Are you seriously here citing that European tabloid nonsense about Knox's behavior as proof of her guilt in spite of the fact that there is no physical evidence and that the prosecution's new theory is that Knox brought a homeless, illegal immigrant drug addict who committed several burglaries into their house and then murdered Kercher because she got mad about said drug addict not flushing the toilet? This is after they claimed that Knox murdered Kercher because she refused to participate an a satanic orgy with said drug addict and her boyfriend.

You must be some attorney if you believe that load of shit.

[msanthrope]

55. I would suggest you read the court documents, and not the tabloids. It reminds me of the OJ

case--those who read tabloids thought he was innocent, and those who read the court documents realized that the evidence was there, staring them in the face.

If you only read what the parent's PR firm has put out, you might think she is innocent. The link I gave has many non-tabloid sources that are pretty helpful.

[Chakab]

64. Are you fucking kidding me? You do realize that the "court documents" were written by the same

people who first insisted that the murder stemmed from a satanic sex game gone wrong and then claimed that Kercher was killed because Knox doesn't like flushing toilets, right?

What's more plausible? That Knox and her boyfriend teamed up with Rudy Guede, a transient, drug addict burglar, who'd been breaking into homes in Perugia, to kill Kercher because of a dispute over deviant sex or an unflushed toilet, or that Guede, the transient, drug addicted burglar, killed Kercher on his own in a robbery attempt gone wrong?

[pnwmom]

70. Exactly. Apparently in Italy the courts prefer the most complicated, unlikely scenarios.

They get to feel more like Sherlock Holmes that way.

[msanthrope]

90. Really? Which judge thought that? I was speaking of the judge reports that I think sum up the

evidence quite nicely.

[dipsydoodle]

63. Is double jeopardy relavent here as some claim ?

She was found guilty at the first trial the verdict of which was set aside at the first appeal.

The Court of Cassation then ruled that the appeal was flawed with inadmissable evidence which set aside the result of that appeal and ordered a re-trial.

At that point she remained guilty from the first trial. Its the appeal against her guilt which has been rejected today.

Apart from that there are exceptions to the double jeopardy rule in the UK and I think there are in the US too.

[msanthrope]

77. Seriously...I'm not sure. I have not done any legal research, but I think that

a US court would find that jeopardy has attached....but an EU court might not.

[dipsydoodle]

92. Thanks

[Lydia Leftcoast]

138. Most Continental European countries don't have double jeopardy rules anyway

You can be retried for the same crime even if found innocent.

[pnwmom]

67. You may be a criminal defense attorney but you're basing your opinion on lies from a hate site.

So your commonsense meter isn't working.

The independent court-appointed experts found no DNA or any other piece of physical evidence linking her to the crime. That's why the first appeals court found her innocent.

[msanthrope]

84. No..basing my opinion on the judge's reports. I think the DNA evidence

is pretty conclusive actually. What do you disagree with in the judge's reports?

[Gravitycollapse]

88. On appeal, an independent lab failed to find evidence of Knox's DNA on the murder weapon.

Or at the crime scene.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/24/amanda-knox-dna-appeal-threat

The report claims Stefanoni ignored international DNA protocols, made basic errors and gave evidence in court that was not backed up by her laboratory work, rendering the knife and bra strap worthless as evidence. But Stefanoni has vowed to fight back during three hearings devoted to the DNA reviews.

[msanthrope]

95. Do you have anything from the actual judge reports...or just tabloids? nt

[Gravitycollapse]

96. I have the Hellmann report right here...

Which is based on the 2010 appeal. That appeal involved the testing for forensic evidence by an independent lab.

http://amanda-knox.wikispaces.com/file/view/HellmannReportEnglish.pdf/439429474/HellmannReportEnglish.pdf

[msanthrope]

98. Hellman was overruled and retired due to infirmity...can you cite something more

recent?

[Gravitycollapse]

100. Excepting the possibility that you have the report overruling Hellmann...

Which I do not possess, the Hellmann report is the most recent official report by a judge I possess on the matter.

Do you have more recent documentation? I genuinely am interested in reading it as I have not been able to find it.

[pnwmom]

89. Did you realize that Judge Massei allowed the prosecution to withhold lab reports from the defense?

And that to this day, no judge ever required them to release the raw data files?

It doesn't sound like you read Judge Hellman's report (the judge in the appeals trial), because he was the one who appointed the independent experts who said there was so much contamination on the bra clasp that almost any man's DNA could have been found there, including the judge's.

Here is the Hellman report. (Click on the word "English.&quot

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/category/the-hellmann-report/

Here is the part specifically to do with why Judge Hellman threw out the DNA evidence against Amanda and Raffaele.

http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/contents/reasons-for-the-decision/expert-review-of-exhibits-36-and-165b/

[msanthrope]

97. Kindly cite what you are claiming...since Hellman was overruled and is now retired, can you

cite the most recent determination on the physical evidence???

[pnwmom]

106. The experts in the second trial, professors in forensics at a top university, gave the most recent

DNA evidence. You can read about it in the link to the Hellman report.

That DNA evidence itself was never thrown out -- only Hellman's final judgment of "innocent" was annulled. The high court ruled that he was wrong not to consider the "totality" of the evidence. That totality included both the DNA evidence introduced by the prosecution and the report of the court-appointed experts.

In the new trial, the only new DNA testing was of a speck of DNA on the knife taken from Raffaele's kitchen. It was proven to be Amanda's, which means nothing, because she cooked in that kitchen. The knife also contained some starch from bread.

The prosecution argues -- nonsensically -- that the presence of Amanda's (and only Amanda's) DNA on the kitchen knife strengthens their case that the knife (that had no blood) was used in the murder.

[maxsolomon]

72. you know, i don't believe you

regarding your profession or your language skills.

you're a well-known guilter of longstanding repute.

her parents were smart enough to mortgage everything their family owned to hire lawyers and a PR firm, or she'd be rotting in a cell till she was 50 while guede was cavorting in the sun for decades.

[msanthrope]

79. I will tell you what I've told other posters..since I've previously claimed to be an Obama

campaign attorney..if you don't believe me, alert admin. They have my name, and my state has an attorney lookup. I think claiming to be an attorney when you are not is a bannable offense here... which is why I have always been open to the idea of providing admin my bar number.

[maxsolomon]

82. michelle bachmann is an attorney as well

so it's possible to have a bar number and be a bonehead. congrats.

[msanthrope]

85. Backing down already???nt

[maxsolomon]

91. if that's what you call it

fine, you're an attorney.

but like every guilter on DU, you're blind to the obvious truth in this case. to motive, character, evidence, and most damningly, logic. just stone blind, and it's quite peculiar.

knox is lucky you're not her counsel.

[Gravitycollapse]

83. She wasn't granted a lawyer, she was verbally and physically abused by police...

Her statements and the statements of the police were not properly translated when exchanged. Signed statements were obtained under clear duress.

On appeal, an independent lab could not find any physical evidence (including DNA) from Knox on the murder weapon or at the crime scene.

There's essentially zero evidence of her guilt beyond "strange" behavior exhibited by Knox within a few hours to a few days of the murder. Most of that can be dismissed as misinterpretation. The rest was willfully manipulated by the media and police. For instance, it was claimed Knox went lingerie shopping at an inappropriate time, therefore indicating a lack of emotional sincerity in her demeanor. In actuality, she was shopping for underwear because she was unable to return home for clothing.

Knox is innocent by the evidence.

[msanthrope]

87. I don't think your summation of the facts is correct. Could you cite the court record they are

from???

[Gravitycollapse]

93. Why don't you cite your claims first. The link you provided is dead.

Unlike you, I'm not claiming to have a professional legal background as a means of establishing an authoritative voice on the subject.

All of my claims are gathered from press releases, statements made by multiple defense teams or lab reports (Conti-Vecchiotti).

[msanthrope]

99. I agree with the standing verdict. If you claim otherwise, it is up to you to prove why

the verdict is incorrect. Press releases??? Please.

FYI...the link I provided is not dead, merely overburdened.

[Gravitycollapse]

101. It's fine to agree with the standing verdict assuming you have the ruling.

Do you have the report?

[Gravitycollapse]

110. Still waiting on those reports.

[pnwmom]

129. I gave her a link to a court document showing Amanda's statement was excluded from the criminal

trial because she made it without an attorney.

Her problem is she's obviously never bothered to read the Hellman report.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

150. Do you really agree with the standing verdict ?

Last edited Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:00 AM - Edit history (3)

I should wonder if you have diplomatic ambitions . This case reminds me of another case over in Portugal. I am not an attorney but I have been around in the world. Never once had any issues with customs upon return either. The same can't be said for many lawyers,in fact many lawyers seem to think that they are special exceptions where it comes down to declaring goods being brought into the country. But don't take my word on that ,just ask any U.S. customs agent that works bridges or airport terminals.

So, a drug dealing transient running around with blood dripping down his knife.Just imagine how that would seem to the locals and to people from afar that just might not pay for their kids to go to school in such an unsafe place. And wouldn't that look bad ? Oh and wouldn't one wonder what kind watch the Italian authorities are keeping on terrorist operatives ? It gets a little political there.

This case is just as pathetic as the case presented in Portugal-regarding the McCann kidnapping case. I suggest you read up on that one. If you do and compare the two cases you might see something of a particular similarity.The McCann kidnapping case never made it's way to trial,in fact it was shelved-but it is a perfect example of a case built up through political paranoia.And it is quite perverted in how it came about. International attention of a not so nice kind was brought down upon Portugal at a point in time when the president of Portugal was holding the gavel in the European alliance. Or E.U. Oh and diplomatic communications were flying too.Lots of activity.

If you are not sure what I am getting at ,it is political-it is not about guilt or innocence-and there is no ethical or unethical and it's not about right or wrong. It is political. What matters in law is the win ,nothing else. And that is what is wrong.

Thus far Ms. Knox has not shown any signs of being a narcissistic sociopath and Kate & Jerry McCann did not chop up their daughter and hide her in very very tiny chill box in their bungalow until the most opportune time to scatter her remains.

Perhaps it's the heat that sustains the lunacy.

The bottom line here is simply this ,there is no standing verdict-it is actually a floating transient kind or verdict which is subject to reversal.

The O.J. Simpson case is what it kind of reminds you of ,is that right ?

The EU sure does have it's problems. And isn't Italy one of those ?

I imagine in the outcome there will be a political diplomatic verdict which will lean into innocence. Or maybe just maybe a special investigative team will be formed to find out what the facts are.Investigators from some place other than Italy but operating jointly. Because maybe the Italian authorities are incapable of investigating itself internally. I mean face it ,they wanted a conviction badly by political order.

Or maybe I'm just a dreamer.
On second thought they do need help.
I suspect political paranoia has something to do with it. Somebody mentioned something about saving political face. Well that is how it all got started-political paranoia set in and it became a face saving trial. And as far as I can tell it has come back around to them and keeps coming back.

Same in Portugal. When they apply political face saving measures, they always use those who have no face to begin with at the face of it. The ones that always end up being thrown under the bus. They were called once upon a time hatchet men, disposable types aka the dirty doers.
And than of course there are sacrificial lambs.

I fail to see why it is it is so difficult for some people to see that it is possible that the trial is and was a political scam designed to reach an end result in the best over all interests of Italy.

See, throw the American and one Italian under the bus so that our european travelers(tourists) and friends and business ties remain confident and relations are unstrained. Imagine that kind of talk in dark corners where political paranoia is evident. Never of course would such talk make it's way out of the shadows though. You see political paranoia is fear and when that paranoia strikes in the chambers -well,than those politicians believe they can handle it.

Is there no such thing as political corruption tied in with big business ?

It knows no bounds.

[pnwmom]

128. Here is a court record showing that Amanda was denied an attorney

and the high court (Court of Cassation) ruled her statement inadmissible in the criminal trial.

It is from the Hellman report. Yes, Hellman retired, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Court of Cassation made this ruling.

http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/contents/reasons-for-the-decision/calumny/

This Corte di Assise di Appello, while confirming the procedural ruling (ordinance) of the first-level Corte di Assise on this point, has nevertheless specified that, while they are usable with respect to the crime of calumny against Patrick Lumumba, they cannot be usable with respect to the other crimes against Meredith Kercher to the extent that, as the Corte di Cassazione has also confirmed (ruling no. 990/08, dated 4-01-2008), they are subject to absolute nullification in this regard (sono affetti, sotto questo profilo, da nullità assoluta), as having been given in the absence of an attorney by a person who had already assumed the role of a suspect (indagata).

[cpwm17]

94. The link doesn't work for me n/t

[MicaelS]

147. And what was their motive for murder? n/t

[pnwmom]

66. The small bedroom where Meredith was murdered was covered in blood,

and yielded dozens of physical pieces of evidence, including DNA, footprints, handprints, etc. Every single piece, including DNA inside and outside the victim's body, was connected to one man: Rudy Guede, a man with a recent history of burglarizing while carrying a knife. He had even carried out one burglary by throwing a rock through a window, just like in this case.

Unfortunately, by the time the police identified all this evidence, they had already made the mistake of announcing with some fanfare that they'd found the killers -- Amanda, her boyfriend Raffaele, and the black man Amanda worked for (the police had found a fiber they incorrectly thought was black hair, so they were on the lookout for a black man.) They told the press that they hadn't needed evidence to convict them -- they had done a psychological analysis and these people fit the profile.

Then the lab returned all the reports linking the crime to a whole different black man -- Rudy Guede. Oops. So, six weeks later, the police went back to the murder room and filmed themselves pulling a bra clasp out of a pile of rubbish on the floor, passing it between themselves (in visibly dirty gloves) and then putting it back on the floor for a photograph. Their lab then discovered some of Raffaele's DNA on it. (Along with so much contamination that a court-appointed expert later said that it could match almost any man -- even the judge.)

Not a single piece of evidence in the room connected to Amanda. The police explained this by saying that Amanda must have washed the room clear of all the evidence tying her and Raffaele to the crime, leaving only Guede's. Does that make any sense to you? That Amanda could have cleaned the room of all traces of her, and left all the blood, and all the DNA, fingerprints, etc. belonging to Guede?

This is why Amanda's supporters think she is innocent. This is why the first appeals court ruled that she was innocent. There was no physical evidence or any witness linking her to the crime.

[another_liberal]

166. If that is all true . . .

. . . Amanda has been put through hell, and had her reputation totally destroyed, for nothing at all but to save some cops much deserved embarrassment. How do you put that behind you and go on with your life?

[pnwmom]

170. It is true. That is why the first appeals court

ruled there was no evidence against them and declared them to be innocent.

She gave a very sad interview to the Guardian yesterday, saying she feels she is marked for life. And Raffaele, of course, is even worse off.

[6000eliot]

161. I do not follow this case at all, so I don't know most of the details,

but I have seen this woman interviewed on television, and I must say that I don't believe her. She may not have really done it, but she sounds like she's lying when she denies it.

[sharp_stick]

11. I don't think Knox will ever have to go back

The US has a double jeopardy rule and even though Italy doesn't there's a good chance it can be used to refuse an extradition request.

Strange strange legal system they have over there.

[jberryhill]

28. Yes, granting extradition is done only if consistent with due process rights

As this request would effectively be double jeopardy, it would not be granted.

[closeupready]

39. But she won't be able to travel to other countries with treaties

on extradition with Italy. Which is effectively most countries.

[dipsydoodle]

51. She's been found guilty under Italian law

US law has no meaning outside of the USA aside from which it is unlikely Italy would request extradition.

I've no doubt it will go back to the Court of Cassation anyway. Meanwhile she can't step foot in the EU.

The damages award to the Kercher family is a different matter :

He ordered that damages should be paid by the pair to the family of Ms Kercher. Ms Kercher's brother Lyle and sister Stephanie were present when the verdict was read out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25941999

That , if necessary, can be pursued through International courts

[Nihil]

168. "Strange strange legal system they have over there."

No more "strange" than your own, just different.

The USA has a pretty "strange" legal system too as the outcome depends
more on the income, skin colour, religion and/or nationality of the accused
(never mind the correlation with the fees charged by the defending attorneys).

And no, I very much doubt that Know will go back ... I really can't see Obama
(or any other US president) sending back a rich white kid in response to a
questionable verdict whilst not sending the host of other clearly & undeniably
convicted murderers, terrorists and assorted criminals that the US has
"protected" against other nations over the years.

Reciprocal behaviour? What's all that stuff?

[sharp_stick]

171. I meant strange as in

I don't understand it. It's different on so many fundamental levels.

[Gothmog]

14. I have no confidence in the Italian justice system

I do not think that this case could have made it to a US jury based on the evidence

[Chakab]

15. Absolutely ridiculous.

[bluestateguy]

20. They do realize they are wasting their time right?

She will never be extradited. And while I think she is innocent on the merits, there are also issues with double jeopardy that we as Americans take very seriously.

[davidn3600]

31. I dont know..the Snowden ordeal is a wake-up call over how much America loves these treaties

There is a double jeopardy exception in the treaty. But experts seem to disagree on whether it would apply in this case since no verdict has yet to be upheld.

The US was well aware of this justice system when it entered into agreement with them back in 1983.

[geek tragedy]

41. there is zero chance the DoJ will extradite her over this clown court's ruling nt

[davidn3600]

62. So openly violate the treaty?

We entered into agreement with their justice system back in 1983. At least at that point we considered them to have a sound and just system.

If a fugitive from an American court flees to Italy, we'd demand they be returned and under the treaty they would have to be. The Italians are going to expect us to hold up our end of the agreement.

This is a high profile case in Europe...especially in Britain since Kercher was a British citizen. The US is going to get hammered in the media over there.

Im not arguing about the merits of the case. I think it's complete utter bullshit. But we have an agreement with that country and if we violate it they are perfectly in their rights to throw the treaty in the trash can.

[geek tragedy]

65. double jeopardy. And, the opinion of voters here certainly outweighs

those of Europe.

And, anyone in Europe who complains can have a giant can of STFU if they complain, given that they're sheltering Roman Polanski.

Italian government will likely not even request extradition, especially with the fiasco they caused with India over their marines.

[TeeYiYi]

68. Italy has been known not to comply in cases of extradition...

re: "If a fugitive from an American court flees to Italy, we'd demand they be returned and under the treaty they would have to be. The Italians are going to expect us to hold up our end of the agreement."

They've refused based on the death penalty. We could refuse based on double jeopardy.

TYY

[rollin74]

27. Italian justice system is a joke

[StevieM]

29. This is disgraceful. Their innocence is beyond dispute. (eom)

[bravenak]

36. Of course they did.

Who wouldn't team up with a stranger to murder their roommate for getting upset about that stranger leaving poop in the toilet?

[Dr. Strange]

37. Clearly.

And who would drive them to do this?

[bravenak]

38. Glad we cleared that up.

Was getting confused until the third trial. Once I heard the new new new theory, it was an open and shut case. Satan+poop+no evidence+perpetrator already imprisoned= Guilty!! Makes sense if you get wet every now and then. And I don't mean swimming I mean angel dust.

[SurfingScientist]

49. The arrogance displayed here is shameful.

It's not like she was arrested in North Korea for "spying" while visiting, to be held as political ransom.

To state that, because it was an Italian court, it must all be a travesty and the poor girl must be innocent, *without knowing what actually happened*, is pretty damn full of arrogance and smells very much like looking down on a European country.

All while our courts still ruin lives for minor substance possession and keep sentencing people to death, some of whom, as we know, are innocent.

I'd expect better from a progressive forum.

Flame away.

[MicaelS]

52. So how many times should a person face trial ..

For the same crime? As many as it takes to get a conviction?

[dipsydoodle]

104. The first appeal was set aside by the Court of Cassation.

As a result of the appeal which ended today the original verdict of guilty has been upheld.

[bravenak]

53. So, let me get this straight.

You believe the theory that she and her boyfriend, who were not home at the time, teamed up with a strange man and killed her roommate, for some unknown reason that may or may not have anything to do with him leaving poop in the toilet.

That's cool.

[Chakab]

56. Sadly, the poop theory makes much more sense than the original one about Knox murdering Kercher

because she refused to participate in a satanic orgy with her boyfriend and a random drug addict/criminal that they apparently picked up off of the street.

I can't believe that the people who are defending the Italian courts on DU have anything more than a superficial understanding what happened in this case.

[bravenak]

78. It's been blowing my mind since the verdict.

I know they can read since they're obviously typing out messages, but maybe we have a reading comprehension problem in this place.
I don't think they even know about the poop theory. How did they miss the ' she and her boyfriend killed her roommate because some random dude didn't flush the toilet, and she nagged him, and they were like , let's team up with this stranger to kill her, cause how dare she yell at her random guest for leaving poopies, all while they were not even at home.'

[cab67]

57. My reaction has nothing to do with the location of the court.

It's based on knowledge of the evidence (or serious lack thereof) against Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito. Wrongful convictions are wrong no matter where they occur. They're just as tragic if they happen in an American court.

[Starry Messenger]

75. I choose to not believe in not-in-evidence satanic sex cults.

Especially in murder trials. So sue me.

[mainer]

178. The prosecutor is obsessed with satanic sex cults

He used it as a motive for another murder trial in Florence. He sees satan and sex everywhere he looks.

[pnwmom]

86. It wasn't a travesty because it was an Italian court.

It was a travesty because this Italian court discounted all the scientific evidence and even common sense in order to convict Amanda and Raffaele.

It was a travesty because the prosecutor was motivated partly by his own misogyny -- this all began as a witch hunt of a pretty girl -- and partly as a distraction from his own legal troubles (he was under indictment for tampering with evidence in other trials at the same time he was prosecuting this case.)

It was a travesty because the appeals court, after considering scientific evidence from INDEPENDENT court-appointed witnesses, decided there was no evidence linking Amanda and Raffaele to the crime.

It was a travesty because the new motive in the current trial was absolute nonsense: that the victim got upset because Rudy Guede (the burglar whose DNA was found inside and on her body) had left unflushed poop in a toilet -- and so Amanda, who had met Rudy once, and Raffaele, who had never met him, rose up and helped Rudy kill her.

[JustAnotherGen]

117. A small point

I mean no disrespect - but this all began with the murder of a vibrant, intelligent, beautiful young woman.

Knox won't be extradited.

This will keep the Brits coming to Italy - that's all. Look at the pound to the Euro vs the US dollar - and how few Americans have passports. It's a more valuable tourist. That makes more sense than anything. Pounds and Euros and dollars and cents.

[pnwmom]

119. I hope she isn't extradited, but I'm not confident. And what about Raffaele?

He's stuck there. And he's already served four years in prison rather than falsely testify that she wasn't with him at the cottage at the time of the murder.

You're probably right about the tourist money. Well, I'm going to contribute to that imbalance. I had wanted to get back there at least once more (I went as a college student), but not now.

[JustAnotherGen]

126. He's an Italian citizen

Subject to their laws . . . You would have to reach out to the Republic to change their laws but will have very little impact. They are stuck between an inquisitory and adversarial criminal code - started moving towards it in 1988. Rafaelle will have to go Hand to hand with the judge. He's back at square one.

Not going there won't change anything - going there won't change anything. This is a very sensational diversion taking people's minds off what my husband refers to as British and German terror tactics of shutting down hospitals in remote areas and cutting elderly pensions.

[pnwmom]

130. It's a diversion to you but not to those whose lives are involved.

People I know here know Amanda very well. She is a real, flesh-and-blood person who is suffering -- not a diversion. And Raffaele is a person who is suffering because he wouldn't hurt her.

[JustAnotherGen]

135. She's not suffering though

This might be a bother to her - but her life will go on. She didn't do this to Raffaele - the criminal code in Italy did. She shouldn't have one iota of guilt over that. He's a grown man - and an Italian man. He's being a "man" about this as his culture requires.

It's not a diversion to me. It's a shiny object in Italy to take people's eyes off the economy and the media is doing the bidding of TPTB over there.

People get murdered and people go through the justice system evey day there. The difference is - Meredith Kercher has the same advocates in Great Britain that your friend Amanda has here. Thats a piece of insight you can share with her . . . People loved and cared and miss Meredith. She has activists and advocates working this from their side.

Having had a close relative murdered (13 th Murder in Rochester NY in April 1991 - these dates are important) I understand their mindset. You never forget. You forgive - but you never let it go. It stays with you.

It might seem absolutely bonkers and insane to you - but if you can wrap your head around the HEARTS of the people she left behind - you will at least understand WHY this keeps happening.

Amanda and Meredith BOTH have advocates. My understanding is Meredith's family has not let up. Until they let up on the Italian justice system - this won't end.

Has anyone on your team tried to reach out to them? They are just people. Just like you and me.

[pnwmom]

142. YOU HAVE NO IDEA. She has a realistic fear of being extradited.

Of course she IS suffering. Many legal experts expect that she will be extradited. Why wouldn't that fear cause her to suffer?

And she doesn't have to feel guilty about Raffaele to feel pain over what he's going through because he wouldn't turn on her.

And what about the costs to her family? She'll have years more of legal bills, and she's had to spend most of her advance paying for the legal bills of the past 6 years.

Of course, Meredith's family has suffered, but that isn't Amanda's fault. They didn't attend the appeals trial, so they have no idea what the evidence was that was presented. They've allowed themselves to be completely bamboozled by the attorney they hired, who cares only about his payoff at the end. Remember, he's encouraged them to sue Amanda for millions -- he wants all her earnings forever, basically.

If Meredith's parents are really her advocates, then they should stop fighting to put innocent people in prison (and to take their future earnings) and ask why the person whose DNA was inside and on her body, whose fingerprints were left in Meredith's blood, was able to get a reduced sentence and will only serve 8 years before being released this year?

Everybody knows that Meredith has friends and family who cared for her deeply. But that doesn't give them the right to attack innocent people, or to be purposefully blind. They've made the choice not to learn what happened in the appeals trial. And just today, Stephanie was quoted as saying that they might never know who killed her sister. So why fight so hard to get their pound of flesh from Amanda and Raffaele?

[davidn3600]

152. The Kerchers seem like they will believe whatever the system tells them to believe

From day 1, Italy has been dead set on the theory that Guede didnt act alone regardless of what any evidence shows. And the Kerchers just follow right along with it.

[pnwmom]

153. I would like to think that the twelve million dollar lawsuit they filed has nothing to do with it.

But I'm certain that money is what is driving their attorney, who would never get paid unless Amanda and Raffaele were found guilty. He'll never get money out of Guede.

I don't think the Kerchers are consciously going after Amanda and Raffaele for the money; but I think it is part of what is driving them unconsciously. And it is all that is driving their attorney.

[JustAnotherGen]

160. Wait - advance?

Is she writing a book? Is that wise considering the circumstances right now? Her attorneys are allowing that?

I still don't think she will be extradited though. This is costing the tax payers there an awful lot of money. This is one last hail Mary attempt and then the case will die.

[pnwmom]

162. She wrote a book and even had a book tour. It didn't have any affect on the trial.

Why wouldn't her attorneys allow it? The appeals trial had ruled that she and Raffaele were "innocent" (a higher standard than "not guilty&quot and that there was "no evidence" of their guilt. No one expected that the high court would overturn such a definitive ruling. It is rare, in fact, for the high court to overturn an appeals court verdict.

Her book is called "Waiting to Be Heard" and she wrote it, in part, to pay her legal bills. I've read it and there is nothing in it that is in the least bit incriminating.

[JustAnotherGen]

164. Ahhh - I see - look at this -

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/30/amanda-knox-prison-meredith-kercher-murder

Amanda Knox: 'They'll have to pull me back kicking and screaming to prison'

It was only later that she discovered false confessions were commonly made by exonerees. "If you look at murder, 62% who are later exonerated, falsely confess. We all seem to think as innocent people we're not going to be screwed with enough psychologically to question everything we know … but goodness, that's not the case at all."

She said she now felt a responsibility to campaign for the wrongfully convicted and to publicise the risk of aggressive interrogation leading to false confession.

"The only thing I can do is testify to what happened to me. You don't have to believe me, but believe that it happens to other people. Until people realise that, they're not going to believe me, so all I can do is say what happened and show who I am and hope that that's enough." Yesterday, the court in Florence ruled that it was not enough.

^That will be her calling in this life.^

[pnwmom]

165. She has already begun.

She writes on this site, including about other people facing wrongful convictions.

amandaknox.com

[JustAnotherGen]

167. Good for her!

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

157. Thats it in a nut shell.

and because of it political paranoia set in . You are correct as can be. Travel is the big thing in europe.
Indeed those trains.

We over here are much smaller where the flow of currency is counted up.Don't know in exacts what the percentage is inso far as where the american tourist/traveler dollar stands but percentage wise it is most likely fairly low in comparisom to the european travel trade. And a visit to europe is quite costly . So yea we stand pretty much on the lower end in percentage capital over there.

And yer right we americans are pretty much homebodies,you know disneyland ,the rockies ,niagara falls

Yes well right, it is indeed about business and that is just why this perversion of justice is what it is. And it's nuts.

And make no mistake the murder victims family is being played in this political gamesmanship.
Which means they are being manipulated and have been all along.

By the way if the over all verdict is not guilty in the end ,is the transient dope dealer said killer who left his bodily waste in the toilet if that how it got there,-is he going to pay ? I think that answer is self evident.

But the prosecution on behalf of government would say,we did everything we could do.
Everything but the pursuit of truth.

[JustAnotherGen]

158. Only a third of us have passports

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewbender/2012/01/30/record-number-of-americans-now-hold-passports/

And having re launched outside of the US services and being tasked with expanding the revenue for a wireless carrier a few years ago - there's a reason why the plans for outside US are so killer when they include US, Mexico and Canada. And itHes nothing to do with folks coming over here from Mexico . . . We are addicted to skiing in Canada and beaches in Cozumel.


The top five countries outside of those two include Italy (Americans traveling to) but the people traveling there reguarly won't be put off by this case, anymore than they are about treatment of black Americans in Spain, the constant strikes in France. (I've been caught in three :chuckle , the bad food in Germany/England (they tie) or the price of a private club visit in Ireland.

But it's not just about business - a truly beautiful young British woman was murdered. There are many Americans who will head to Disney and Daytona this year. Me? I'll personally never set foot in Florida again. That's my choice. But I know my personal boycott is just that - personal. Political and reasonable to people that look like me - but to many they would say, "you can't fight the man".

Now if we can't impact the injustice system in every state in America - we can't impact the justice system in another country either.

Until we get it right and do it flawlessly - we live in a house of murano glass.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

163. It is about the murder victim Meredith Kercher

But I think it's about all the victims .We in America are not unwise to what it called a kangaroo court.I really think the authorities of Italy did a real number on brain washing the Kerchers.
I mean hay if I'm right who is going to compensate the Kercher family for that ? How would the political authorities of Italy apologize for that ? Or acknowledge wrongful doings ?

Knox was in effect water boarded. They had a twenty year old that didn't know squat about the ways of the world.

And they did not and do not have a case. So what did they do ? They made it look like they had one, so what it's made to look like is what counts,not what it really is.

It really isn't all about the power in perception in this case- and it doesn't matter how many different ways they flip it over, it comes down to the same thing. It is really almost too easy to see through.

And murder of the mind is cold blooded murder and that count falls upon the authorities of Italy.

There are many victims although only one lost her life-so far suicide hasn't happened as a result of it.

Again I don't think the American tourist er in Italy amounts to all that much in percentages.
So even if the polls showed big numbers in the American publics discomfort about it, really in percentages the gold is closer to home as the saying goes.

The murder case they built is a total fabrication .And it's political. Thats what I think .

About 1/3 have passports. That number sky rocketed. !

[tavernier]

175. Never set foot in Florida again?

Thank you!!!! xxxxx!!!!

Now can you convince about 30 million more people to do the same? My poor little island is tipping over from all the traffic, I can't stop in to the grocery store on my way home from work because 5:00 pm seems to be the most convenient shopping time for tourists and snowbirds, and I have a permanent tic in my eye after 4 months of hearing how much better things are done "up north".

[JustAnotherGen]

176. Naaah

It's not a southern thing - it's a Zimpig thing. I'm black! He's walking around with loaded guns. I have a 17 year old and a 20 year old nephews - I'm not taking them to Florida! He'll shoot them and get away with it . . .

ETA: Snorty Laugh - Maybe the game will take care of that Zimpig problem.
http://m.tmz.com/2014/01/30/the-game-george-zimmerman-boxing-trayvon-martin/

[tavernier]

179. Here is a line I bet you've never heard before:

Some of my best friends are black!

But it is true, although only one best friend, and I hope he never decides to leave us over a turd like Zimmerman.

hugs to you for being a good dad and uncle; it is a scary world for us all at times. For a while in our town, little white blonde haired boys were being stalked by a pervert who liked to molest children. As my seven year old grandson fit that category at that time, I was very paranoid and frightened to let him out of my sight, so I respect where you are coming from.

[JustAnotherGen]

181. No

I'm a black woman who got married to a white man from Italy - a sexy and rich one! And as black women do - we protect our families at all costs. Understand?

Actually your joke? My friend Truthn08 and I belong to another web site (non political in focus) and there's a very prejudiced woman there (she tries to play like she's not) and I always tease Truth that SHE has to be Own's ONE black friend she had once.

[StevieM]

105. This is nothing more than sexual violence (eom)

[brentspeak]

154. "I'd expect better from a progressive forum."

Maybe no one told you this, but progressives do not support double jeopardy.

Kindly stuff it.

[Gravitycollapse]

59. Double jeopardy. Knox is safe from extradition.

[TeeYiYi]

61. I have to wonder...

...why they (Italy) feel so sure that she is guilty. It defies logic that a country would endlessly expend resources to prosecute a case unless there was some incontrovertible proof that we (people in the rest of the world) are just not seeing.

Guilty or innocent, I'm glad she stayed home. I don't think I'll ever be truly sure of her culpability in this case so I'd rather see her guilty at home than innocent in a prison in Italy.

TYY

[mrmpa]

73. Ir's all about trying to save face.....eon

[CTyankee]

76. I will be in eastern Tuscany in March on an art intensive study...

and I think the Italian government is wrong in its assessment here. Looks like she is going to be a pawn in the trade agreements talks between the U.S. and Italy.

But I will be in a little medieval town called Anghiari and going to other small towns around it where the artist Piero della Francesca painted many of his early Renaissance masterpieces. These little towns derive some good income out of the art lovers who seek to find the inspirational location of an artist of incomparable importance in Western art. One can do worse than to go to their towns, eat their cuisine, stay in their inns and discover their culture.

I do not wish to deny these towns their rightful claim to the beauty and genius of Piero and my (modest) dollars to support that with my visit. Until the Americans got wind of this in a big way, the Brits had trekked for years to Piero's historic landmarks. Now these towns have gained a real tourist advantage for those travelers who are art inclined to do this. I want to encourage their cooperation. I would NOT like to see them forced to give up their art treasures to pay for their existence.

Italy's art is its heart and soul and her gift to Western civilization. We Americans should respect that.

[Mass]

103. Given the quality of the US judiciary system (death penalty, ridiculous imprisonment

of a huge quantity of black males for ridiculous reasons), I would avoid criticizing other countries, whatever your feeling for this young woman is.

[Dr. Strange]

107. Seems to me that someone who cares about justice...

would criticize both.

[pnwmom]

108. We haven't had a witch trial in a while. Nor have we convicted geologists of manslaughter

because they failed to predict an earthquake.

[CTyankee]

112. Nor have we painted the Mona Lisa or sculpted the David...

[pnwmom]

115. That doesn't make up for their inquisitorial justice system. n/t

[CTyankee]

118. Not saying that it does. But if we are making a comparison between cultures and histories we

have to balance the good with the bad. "Inquisitorial justice systems" also existed in our countries and for far longer than the Inquisition (which was Spanish in its conception). We had the Salem witch trials and hey, I live here in New England...

[pnwmom]

120. Yes, we had the Salem witch trials. It's time for Italy to move at least into the 20th century,

if not the 21st.

And they can start by understanding scientific evidence requires scientific procedures.

[CTyankee]

125. From what I have read, I have to agree with you on your point about scientifc procedures...

but I don't agree on your "cure" which seems to be an American boycott of travel in Italy. I would encourage you to see "Monuments Men" when it arrives in theatres around the country next week. It is about the extraordinary lengths that Allied (mostly American but also British) forces went to save the art of Europe from Nazi theft and U.S. bombing in the Italian campaign. We knew full well that Italy had been in the hands of Mussolini, our enemy, but we saved its art anyway. How could we not?

[Gravitycollapse]

114. Not that such a conviction is even relevant to this case...

But if you're going to make such accusations, at least know what happened. They were convicted for stating there was no danger of an earthquake when they knew there was. They were not convicted because they "failed to predict an earthquake."

Whether or not the negligence of their statements were worthy of a criminal conviction is a separate argument.

[pnwmom]

116. Not true. They were convicted for not saying there was an increased risk of an earthquake

and THERE WAS NOT. The earthquake occurred in a part of the country that often had small earthquakes. The fact that they were occurring did NOT mean that a big one was about to happen.

California is another place that has frequent small earthquakes -- and very few of 9 and above. Geologists have never figured out how to predict when a small earthquake means a big one is coming.

[Mass]

151. Well, executing prisoners is not my idea of a just society, but if it fits you.

As for the rest, I will not talk about what I do not know. From what I heard in the US papers, it seems the trial is not very good, but frankly, neither are quite a lot of American trials. So, may be the idiotic hysteria (not going to Italy) in this forum is really ridiculous, and has nothing to do with feeling sorry for Knox. Because otherwise, there are plenty of states in this country you would avoid.

[Common Sense Party]

123. Read John Douglas' latest book. He shreds the prosecution's so-called "case."

They have NOTHING. There is NOTHING to suggest she is even remotely guilty, much less beyond a reasonable doubt.

[mainer]

173. I would also add "Monster of Florence" by Douglas Preston

He had a run-in with the same prosecutor, who threatened to throw Preston into jail for asking too many questions on a different case. Preston said the prosecutor is corrupt and obsessed with satanic sexual rituals, which he seems to see everywhere.

[rocktivity]

134. Didn't she blame a black guy? n/t

rocktivity

[Gravitycollapse]

136. No, the police did. They found his DNA in and around the body and on the murder weapon.

Not that I necessarily trust the expertise of the police forensic team in this case.

[rocktivity]

141. ...A police interpreter testified that Amanda seemed relieved

when she finally changed her story to say that she was home and had heard Meredith's screams as Patrick attacked her. Amanda claimed Patrick was infatuated with Meredith; he maintained he had met the English girl only a handful of times.

Knox told police that she had met up with Patrick at a neighborhood basketball court the evening of the murder, and that they had gone together to the cottage around 9:00 p.m. She said that Patrick and Meredith had soon retired to Meredith's bedroom, and that she later had heard Meredith screaming, in response to which, Knox maintained, she had only plugged her ears. If this version is true, she apparently had forgotten all about it by the next morning, and didn't connect it to the blood-soaked apartment. Police arrested Amanda that night, in view of her inconsistent statements.

Lumumba was arrested the next day, but was quickly able to prove he'd spent the evening in his bar, and was released on November 20, 2007, for lack of any evidence corroborating Knox's account. He later sued the police for 516,000 euros in damage for false imprisonment (approximately $670,000 at the time). On March 16, 2009, an Italian court awarded Patrick 8,000 euros ($10,500). He's now suing Amanda for defamation.
link

The second lawsuit was filed by Patrick Lumumba against Amanda Knox for defamation. This lawsuit would prove to be extremely damaging to Amanda as it certainly influenced the murder trial. Lumumba wanted compensation because Amanda “accused” him of murdering Meredith. Early on, Lumumba had told the press that he was mistreated by the police and endured a brutal interrogation. You would think that his experience with the police would give him an understanding as to why Amanda described a “vision” during her interrogation that imagined Lumumba attacking Meredith while Amanda listened from another room...

As we know, Amanda endured an all night interrogation where she was repeatedly told that Lumumba committed the crime and she was told to imagine that it occurred. Shortly after the interrogation ended, Amanda recanted her statements stating that she was under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Amanda’s retraction had no influence on the police; they needed their trio of suspects to fulfill Mignini’s fantasy so they rushed out to arrest Lumumba anyway.
link

Somewhere between her version and his lies the truth, as the saying goes.


rocktivity

[Gravitycollapse]

144. Ah I thought you were referring to the one in prison, Guede.

[pnwmom]

145. Lumumba initially claimed police brutality,

which corroborated Amanda's claims that the police harangued her and hit her to she gave them the statement they wanted -- without an attorney present.

He later withdrew the police complaint and filed a big lawsuit against Amanda instead. Follow the money. And the power. Both of them were victimized by the police, but Lumumba decided it was more profitable to switch sides and join the police in going after Amanda and Raffaele.

[RedRoses323]

177. Agreed

Initially, Knox accused Patrick Lumumba of murdering Meredith Kercher…. And many people feel sorry for Knox ….Give me a break!

[cpwm17]

180. It appears that it was the police that accused Patrick Lumumba of murdering Meredith Kercher

and the police then coerced the alleged accusation from Knox.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

137. This points up a major difference between Anglo-American and Continental law

In Anglo-American systems, if you're once found innocent of a crime, you can never be tried for the same crime again.

In Continental-style systems (and this includes Japan), if you're found innocent and the prosecutor still thinks you're guilty, he or she can try you again and again.

One time when I was in Japan, I heard a news report about a prosecutor who had tried the same defendant for the same crime several times over a twenty year period until the Japanese Supreme Court told him to give up already.

[mbperrin]

139. If found guilty, extradition should be routine.

That's simple law anywhere, unless you support the idea that American millionaires who are convicted here should be able to go elsewhere and live with no fear of punishment.

If we expect Italy to extradite criminals to us, we'll have to do the same for them, exceptional as we (think) we are.

[Gravitycollapse]

143. There's considerable doubt as to her guilt. It would be insane to extradite her.

[mbperrin]

155. She's been convicted in a court of law.

She has one more appeal, if I understand the system. So there must be little doubt. It would be insane not to extradite criminals convicted of crimes if we ever expect others to return the favor.

But I don't buy the "she's American and cute, so she MUST be innocent" meme. Many do.

[Gravitycollapse]

156. That's a disgusting, bullshit, woman-hating argument.

Like she doesn't have enough problems, now there's a bunch of people shaming her body.

Seriously, you should be ashamed.

[mbperrin]

186. No, I have a sister who used this very method for years to stay out of jail for meth sales.

She was 4'10" tall and weighed 90 pounds. She had a written checklist on the fridge: "Wear pink to court, not your blacks."

The person who was killed has a problem as well. They're dead, so someone who's actually freely moving about the country of her birth has no real complaint that I can see.

And if you don't think there are people who think Murkans can do no wrong, you need to get out more. I didn't shame her, I was shaming the folks using that meme.

[davidpdx]

146. I was hopeful they would win this round

It is clear that the Italian court is going to convict the two of them despite the lack of evidence. My guess at this point is when it is appealed to the next level it will be upheld, pretty much ending the whole thing.

I hope the US doesn't extradite her. I've followed the case since the beginning and believe she is not guilty of murder.

[muriel_volestrangler]

159. Kercher murder: Sollecito 'stopped near border'

Italian Raffaele Sollecito has been stopped by police near the Austrian border following the reinstatement of his guilty verdict for the murder of Briton Meredith Kercher in 2007.

Sollecito was stopped between Udine and Tarvisio, near the Slovenia and Austria borders, Italy's Rai News said.
...
A travel ban was part of the verdict handed down on Sollecito.

He had been in court earlier in the day on Thursday but was not there for the ruling.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25978340

[pnwmom]

169. The word "stopped" is misleading. He was sleeping with a girlfriend in a hotel

about 25 miles from a border. Other reports say they had no information that he was going anywhere. And he couldn't be "stopped" if he was in bed, asleep.

[mainer]

182. And if he were really fleeing, he'd be all the way in Germany

No one checks you at border crossings. There's no logical reason why a fleeing suspect would stop just inside the Italian border, when it's so easy to keep going.

[mainer]

185. Here's why Italian justice is screwed up:

In Italy, the prosecutor directs the investigation. Meaning he can decide which avenues to pursue and which not to. This prosecutor decided immediately that Amanda Knox was guilty ... and set out to prove it.

By law, the prosecutor must be involved in the investigation process since its beginning. In fact, the police have the duty to report all known offences to the prosecutor in the shortest time possible (in certain cases, within 24 hours or even immediately) so to permit the prosecutor to gain the lead of the inquiry and to direct the investigative action (see Q 3).

Once the prosecutor is in full charge he gives instructions to the police, both generic and specific. In the latter case the prosecutor indicates which specific act to carry out and he can also impose to follow particular formalities.

The prosecutor can also personally discharge the investigations. However, in daily practice it is very unusual for the prosecutor to carry out directly all the investigative acts. This happens only for absolutely major crimes (e.g. terrorism). In general, the prosecutor gives instructions to the police: when the offence is a serious one he might prefer to give a specific instruction, otherwise he sets general guidelines and leaves the case to the police. In cases of minor offences it is not uncommon for prosecutors not to give any instruction and to leave the police complete freedom of movement.

However, there are some investigative acts that can be carried out only by the prosecutor himself or only under his impulse.

Only the prosecutor can question the person in custody. Only the prosecutor can take the initiative to adopt wiretapping. For doing so, he will file a request to the judge, asking to be admitted to such investigative act (though, materially, the act is made by the police). The judge can admit the request only if there is a probable cause (gravi indizi) that the alleged crime was committed and only if such pervasive act is absolutely necessary for the prosecution of the inquiry.

http://www.euro-justice.com/member_states/italy/questionnaire/7/784/

[deepblue9]

187. Court of Cassation

Amanda and Raffaele were involved in some way. The sheer weight of evidence puts that fact beyond dispute. Rudy's DNA was not "everywhere" (it was found in a handful of places, if that). DNA is not necessarily left at murder scenes, and if you accept Rudy's DNA was there, you must also accept Raffaele's was there (the contamination theory is a non-starter). And exactly how did Amanda's lamp (her only source of light) end up, fingerprint free, on the floor of Meredith's room? Are all the American airheads who believe in Knox's innocence honestly asking me to accept that Guede wiped the lamp with his hanky or something?

If one looks at all the evidence together, the case against Knox and Sollecito is considerable. This is why Cassation reinstated the guilty verdicts, slamming the incoherence, illogical and plain erroneous arguments of the Hellman appeal.