Ukraine's Southeast seeks to restore constitutional order, thousands gather in Kharkov.
Source: RT News
The public gathering of deputies from local councils of southeastern Ukraine have declared they are taking responsibility for constitutional order in the country, as thousands of people have assembled in the city of Kharkov. “We, the local authorities of all levels, the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Sevastopol region decided to take responsibility for ensuring the constitutional order and the rights of citizens on their territory,” their resolution said.
The Kharkov public gathering has announced a number of measures local authorities should take in response to the developments in Kiev. They should take full responsibility for all decision in respective regions with no regard to authorities in Kiev until the constitutional order in Ukraine is restored, a resolution of the gathering says. They authorities should take measures to protect arms depots and prevent their take-over and looting by radical opposition activists.
The deputies have criticized the decision adopted by the Parliament (Verkhovna Rada) in the last few days, saying they are raising doubts about its legitimacy. The gathering says the legislative acts may have been passed involuntary and are neither legitimate nor lawful. The resent decisions of the national parliament were taken in conditions “of terror, threats of violence and death,” the resolution says. Meanwhile, citizens are encouraged to form local militias to protect public order. Local authorities are to fund and support those militias. Over 10, 000 people have gathered at the city’s Sport Palace, where a total of 3,477 deputies have been holding a meeting.
(snip)
Read more: http://rt.com/news/thousands-gather-eastern-ukraine-252/
Looks like another power block has emerged within the Ukrainian nation. It is, of course, too early to speak of what Americans might call "secession," but this is certainly an indication of the deeply felt divisions within that troubled country.
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RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)The Crimea seceding and seeking to join up with Russia has been an ongoing potential worry for Ukraine.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)He did win Ukraine's last Presidential election with a real majority of votes cast, and he is anything but without allies. It would be foolish to think he is just going to accept what happened in Kiev, and quietly go away without putting up any resistance.
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)in a mess like today's Ukraine. Just different interests, and people willing to go to (or urge their supporters to) engage in varying levels of violence to further their agendas.
It ain't pretty.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Ukraine remains a true powder keg:
Some say the World will end in fire
Some say in ice
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire
. . .
Robert Frost
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)in this situation to put their lives on the line for their convictions. The videos of people with makeshift shields advancing on small groups on armed and firing security forces are... remarkable. One goes down, he or she is hauled off for treatment, and the rest advance, driving off the security forces.
How many keyboard warriors in the US would put their lives on the line to restore electoral integrity, free from the ownership of big money?
valerief
(53,235 posts)
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)I'm sure his mouth waters at the resistance he'll get from trying to take Crimea.
Russia is probably setting up contingency plans as we speak.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)That will have to make an intervention of some kind by the Russian Federation more plausible.
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)he will probably get out while the getting's good. I doubt he's unaware of Morsi's situation in Egypt or Maduro's growing problems in Venezuela. Legitimately winning elections does not immunize you against the wrath of popular uprisings (or mob rule, depending on your perspective).
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)The insatiable greed of powerful Western economic/military interests. They seem intent on allowing no one to remain outside their sphere of hegemonic control.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)They are so afraid of western hegemony that they overreact and do stupid shit. Like laying siege on a city with paid mercenaries and killing dozens. Kiev should've been ignored. The anti-protest law was stupid. It didn't even become anything but old nationalists standing in the cold until the anti-protest law came around and invigorated the masses. Too many memories of Holodomor lingering.
Seriously they non-violently protested for months before that law came into effect. It was so stupid.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Well said.
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)government against relatively powerful protesting blocs. Tell someone they can't protest, and you give them a fantastic opportunity to prove their level of commitment and gain a larger audience than they had before.
Such laws only work when the government has very clear control over the people who will have to do the killing when the trigger is pulled. (China in Tienanmen, for example...)
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)It's part of the big game. The Russian oligarchs and Western billionaires are no different from each other in that respect.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)Much less dividing up the rest of the country:
This will be felt as a win for ethnic Ukrainians.
Crimea needs to watch it as much as the secessionists in the US should watch it. Such actual efforts would be met with serious consequences. The Tatars have just a bad history with Russians as ethnic Ukrainians.
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)the Crimea with open arms. At the core of the conflict is young people and Westerners who very much think of themselves as European, and Easterners who very much think of themselves as Russian. Russia would support a Crimean secession as a means of reducing the likely gains of the Westerners that will come out of this mess.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)They got several thousand to appear magically? Nah, they planned it in advance. No wonder the Kiev protesters were caught off guard when they found the buildings unoccupied.
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)engaged with Russian envoys/agents in hopes of coming out of this with Russian support and/or secession.
Can't say I blame them. The East/West divide is not a small thing in countries like Ukraine and Georgia. And Russia keeps seeing its range of political influence decline in favor of European leanings. The memories of Napoleon and Hitler are part of the national consciousness (or great tools of rhetoric to be deployed when the citizens need to be riled up).
Hope Ukraine comes out of this with its current territory intact, but I wouldn't bet on it without really good odds...
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Still, in this case economic self-interest may prove to be thicker than even blood, at least for the industrialized Southeast of Ukraine.
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)survive a crisis like this intact in our chaotic world...
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)But how that would be received by the international community is debatable. Since the country now has no leader it would be the most opportune time to do it.
If anything happens it happens soon. 3-6 months tops. You can bet now that Yulia Tymoshenko is free she will be talking with the State department and whatever other allies she can to rush elections.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)If she ever gets her hands on him!
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)either. Regardless, I doubt she'd seek personal vengeance. Others would, though... Such as the pals of the people who were shot by snipers in the Maidan. They'll want blood.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Was certainly a boost for her standing.
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)a nightmare, and Putin knows it. Ukraine isn't Georgia, and the Crimea isn't South Ossetia.
There will be no outside military interventions in this mess. There may be some rhetoric, but it will only be puffing.
Paula Sims
(913 posts)Crimea is a military strong hold (and had the area with the coolest city name ever -- Bachchysaray -- Бахчисарай in Ukrainian) and Ukrainians are more willing to let the Tatars be Tatars than the Russians are. And according to the map (great map, by the way), there's a huge swath of Ukrainians in the east and I worry for them.
Ukrainians just want their land back (I'd settle for the pre-WII lands but really want the stuff going back to 988, but that's OK) and to govern as Ukrainians, with their language being the official language and their rightful place as humans. We have not been allowed that under the yolk of all and we're just tired. Enough.
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)Yanukovich just fled Kiev to somewhere in the country's East.
So, he'll try to muster some support, then hightail it when he fails.
Paula Sims
(913 posts)Yes, the south-east is highly Russian and that is due to mass re-population efforts during the Soviet era and before. However, Ukrainians are sick of being torn apart and have their lands taken away. The Russians want the Crimea for it's military position and that's not going to happen. I've said it in many posts, we are ready to go to the death on this one. If we allow Kharkiv (with an I, please), to go, then that's akin to just time when the rest of it goes. Too many natural resources to give away there, and they know it. We've already given up our language (Russian and Ukrainian are the official government languages), we're not going to give up our land.
Yes, Yanukovich may have "democratically elected" but not without high levels of fraud. I know the elections were declared "free" but I also know how heavy of a hand Moscow/Putin had in it. It's worse than the Koch brothers and much more blatant.
Now I don't what Tymoshenko will do or how this will turn out, and frankly, my friends and relatives don't trust anyone in government (even the "good guyes" -- whoever they are).
And now that the Olympics are winding down, it will be interesting to see what happens. I hope the Ukrainian athletes, initially not allowed to wear black armbands during the games, will wear them during the closing ceremonies. Sochi isn't that far from Ukraine and we need to send a message to the world.
The only thing that REALLY scares me is that Hayden Panettere might the sister-in-law to one of the leaders -- that freaks me out.
PS -- Sorry the US hockey team lost. The steaks were even higher --- the loser got to keep Justin Bieber!!!
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Last edited Sat Feb 22, 2014, 06:50 PM - Edit history (2)
And I don't want to encourage anyone to become violent or radical, but I know what I would do if someone tried to make off with part of my country. I would resist, nonviolently if at all possible, and through the ballot box preferably, but I would resist any way I had to. My family had to one hundred fifty years ago, and I would feel less than worthy of that ancestry if I didn't do the same.
Paula Sims
(913 posts)I apologize if I had misstated your previous posts or intentions. Sometimes when you have NOTHING else to lose, your life becomes another "thing" to lose for the greater good. Sometimes, you just hit that point. . .
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)And don't give up. A better day is dawning, we have to believe in that.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)I have only all good wishes for Ukraine, and I worry.
On a lighter note-
Having to suffer with Justin Bieber is much worse than having lost a hockey game.
Thanks for the condolences--for Bieber.
Paula Sims
(913 posts)
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Reminds me of Azerbiajan's elections.
Published: October 10, 2013
Observers Differ on Fairness of Election in Azerbaijan.
BAKU, Azerbaijan — A prominent delegation of international election observers on Thursday sharply criticized Azerbaijan’s presidential election as unfair and rife with fraud, amid aggressive efforts by the Azerbaijani government and its allies to portray the vote as legitimate.
>
According to official returns, President Ilham Aliyev overwhelmingly won a third five-year term in Wednesday’s election, securing 84.6 percent of the vote with nearly all the counting completed. The best established of nine opposition candidates, Jamil Hasanli, won 5.5 percent.
Mr. Hasanli’s campaign, however, alleged that there had been election violations throughout the country, and observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said they had also documented widespread irregularities, including ballot-box stuffing and what appeared to be fraudulent counting.
The observers also said the election was deeply unfair from the start, tilted to Mr. Aliyev’s advantage because of his domination of state-controlled news media and his use of official efforts to suppress the opposition.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/11/world/asia/observers-say-azerbaijan-election-marred-by-fraud.html?_r=0
Whereas the US whose interests differ said :
But observers from other delegations, including a group of former members of the United States House of Representatives, said the voting on Wednesday was clean and efficient. Mr. Aliyev, thanking voters in a televised statement, called the elections “free and transparent.”
Former Representative Michael E. McMahon, a Democrat from Staten Island, called the vote “honest, fair and really efficient.”
I'm aware of the situation there because the mother of a Canadian friend was an election observer there at an earlier date when the US simply turned a blind eye to the observers being kicked out.
Tom Rinaldo
(23,187 posts)There is a potentially peaceful end game that might keep the Ukraine together as a nation. There is a justification for saying that the recent parliamentary actions, however necessary they might have been, were not constitutional. The eastern region may be trying to strengthen it's hand in whatever deal making is involved in all sides signing off on the next constitutional order and national government.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)"A potentially peaceful end game," sounds wonderful. For one, I am reasonably confident the majority of Ukrainians don't want to see their nation divided, especially with the two halves likely to be at each others' throats. I imagine they want a peaceful solution to the crisis.
I would hope our government and its allies now work to calm down the aggressive tendencies of a now truncated, and protester controlled Parliament. They have only been in power for a day, and they have already moved to impeach and remove the democratically elected President, name his successor, issue arrest warrants for his former ministers, outlaw opposition parties and censor foreign press they feel has been insufficiently supportive of the Maidan protests. Surely we can't approve of and back a minority power garb of that magnitude?