Putin says 'threat of ultranationalists' forced him to intervene

[steve2470]

Source: UK Telegraph

Ukraine live: Putin says 'threat of ultranationalists' forced him to intervene

Vladimir Putin has spoken to Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, and said that the "threat of violence from ultranationalists" forced him to intervene. In a sign of Putin's reach, Ukraine's head of navy has defected - and been charged with treason. All the latest news from Ukraine here

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10669670/Ukraine-live.html

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19.23 More detail from Putin's conversation with Merkel - the first comments we have had from him since the ouster of Viktor Yanukovych,

Putin told German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Sunday that Russian citizens and Russian-speakers in Ukraine faced an "unflagging" threat from ultranationalists, and that the measures Moscow has taken were completely fitting given the "extraordinary situation", the Kremlin said.
In a telephone conversation during which Merkel expressed concern about developments in Ukraine, she and Putin agreed that Russia and Germany would continue consultations in bilateral and multilateral formats to seek the "normalisation" of the situation, a Kremlin statement said.

same link as above

[steve2470]

1. head of Ukraine Navy defects to Russia

18.24 We're getting more statements from Kiev about the circumstances surrounding Denis Berezovsky's defection to Moscow. The head of the navy announced within the past hour that he is switching sides.

Viktoria Syumar, deputy secretary of Ukraine's Security Council, said:

During the blockade by Russian forces of the central headquarters of the navy, he declined to offer resistance and laid down his weapons.

The prosecutor's office has opened a criminal case against Denis Berezovsky under statute 111: state treason.

Another admiral, Serhiy Hayduk, was placed in charge of the navy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10669670/Ukraine-live.html

[TwilightGardener]

2. Ultra-nationalists made you invade? Not WMD, not actual violence and instability, no

threat to your border or interests...nope, ultra-nationalists in a government that formed last week and can barely tie its shoes right now. Does he think the world will buy this?

[Warpy]

5. It's rather a poor translation

for what Svoboda really stands for: fascism and quite possibly a type of ethnic cleansing that would evict Russians, Jews and Russian language speakers from the whole country. At least that's the fear stemming from reading their propaganda.

Wikipedia's got a decent article on them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29

[TwilightGardener]

9. No, I know what he's getting at. I'm saying the new transitional government

isn't entirely represented by such people, and even if they were...you can't invade another country because you don't happen to like their political bent. Silly rationale, but because Ukraine has shown restraint so far, it's all he has as pretext. Of course, it's a sham. He's grabbing land and assets faster than the world can react, and then it's too late to contest it.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

10. Some people around here seem to be in denial about it.

I don't understand it, personally. You have a group of self described fascists who are the descendants of the pro-NAZI elements in Ukraine being put in charge of the domestic security of the country, yet some people on this forum are acting like there is some kind of non-violent people's movement in charge right now.

[cosmicone]

13. Tell me about it ... the whole "uprising" was a scam

and they do not have the support of a vast majority of the population.

The Svoboda people could never get elected to office and are now in power.

[pangaia]

14. Am I too off the wall to make somewhat of a comparison

to the Teapartyistas and the Kochs, et al?

[cosmicone]

15. Not at all

Some of the new "leaders" in the government would make Michelle Bachmann and Louis Gohmert appear rational and moderate.

[pangaia]

16. In the sense that the Kochs et al

are using the blind 'nationalists' to try to take over the country,,

[okaawhatever]

17. No, those of us who aren't paid propagandists know the truth. First that the leader of

Svoboda was formerly in Yanukovych's party and that Svoboda is one of three coalition partners. The right wing football clubs aren't from either party and are mostly just against corruption but they are right wing nationalists If you read more accurate sources you get a better picture. You see, we know how PR companies are hired to promote government causes. It happened in this country for support for Kuwait. Knowing that, I'm very suspect of what I read and the information I rely on. What I don't rely on is anything promoted by a bunch of people who have been here a few months.

[go west young man]

20. Try the BBC.

Ukraine: Far-right armed with bats patrol Kiev

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26394980 Interesting interviews and a somber aspect.

[joshcryer]

21. Only 0.1% of Ukranians feel discriminated against by nationality.

Which means that the supposed "ethnic Russian oppression" is a facade.

Page 154 in this study: http://i-soc.com.ua/institute/Ukr_ta_Evro_eng.pdf

It is quite literally the new baby incubators.

[go west young man]

22. Very interesting study.

Just had a quick glance. Thanks. Far too large to read tonight but I'll definitely be reading up on it. The BBC report gives a pretty sober assessment of the nationalist bent which pretty much goes hand in hand with the study you put up. Judging from how fast and violent the initial uprisings were (I was watching LiveLeak videos from day one of the riots) it's easy to understand that these were not regular citizens. They were far to aggressive and violent from the get go. They seemed more like soccer hooligans. The Bercut riot police seemed to take a pummeling in the earlier videos back in November. That seemed to embolden the nationalists who continued pushing. Then I think part of the general Western Ukrainian public started backing the movement as did the West as it looked like a chance to break away from Russia. I think those that got on board within the country didn't realize what the consequences might lead to. The nationalists aren't gonna go away nicely.

I think the West will find it difficult to deal with the new interim leaders and soon be looking to Russia to help stabilize the country again. I think in less than 2 years this whole ordeal will be right back at square one. Why wouldn't it be? Half of Ukraine identifies themselves as Russian speakers. Throw in the fact that Moscow is giving all the police and military immediate Russian citizenship with benefits. Hence the reason Ukraine has called up reservists.

Benefits that include $10,000 for having a baby and a flat 12% tax rate in a country that is economically improving unlike Ukraine. There are a lot of small realities being missed by those that just get their info stateside.

[go west young man]

23. Couple that with.

Josh, you do some serious research to have found that page in that large a study. Hat tip to you.

[joshcryer]

24. To be fair I used Control+F "nationality".

That study is also quite important in that Ukrainians are some of the least politically involved people in that region. It doesn't help that the oligarchs literally run everything.

It just seemed odd that people were claiming there was some ethnic divide because normally when you have two ethnicities going up and intermingling you have lots and lots of spats. You see this in African states that the British chopped up (leaving really crappy colonial borders). You don't see it in Ukraine.

[go west young man]

25. Yeah I didn't buy the ethnic divide theme either.

Especially since Ukraine has been on a continuous monetary decline since 91' and even the CIA fact book cites that Russian connections have helped Ukraine (mainly oil and gas, as well as other goods and commodities) since 2008 to improve economically. I don't doubt the corruption aspect to things. I just think the overall nationalist picture doesn't quite add up. I imagine older Ukranians who have had it so hard for so long are asking themselves "what now?"

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/up.html

Excerpt: Output by 1999 had fallen to less than 40% of the 1991 level. Ukraine's dependence on Russia for energy supplies and the lack of significant structural reform have made the Ukrainian economy vulnerable to external shocks. Ukraine depends on imports to meet about three-fourths of its annual oil and natural gas requirements and 100% of its nuclear fuel needs. After a two-week dispute that saw gas supplies cutoff to Europe, Ukraine agreed to 10-year gas supply and transit contracts with Russia in January 2009 that brought gas prices to "world" levels.

[joshcryer]

26. Russia charged more, 'someone' stole huge amounts of gas.

And the people had to pay. It's hard to say who the 'someone' who stole gas was. Ukraine admitted to having stored a lot of the gas, but Russia no doubt has inspectors working on the pipelines. Oligarchs in either country get to get rich off of it, and again the Ukrainian people have to pay.

[joshcryer]

28. Yeah?

Which side are your relatives on?

The anti-war side being beaten and jailed in protests?

Or the pro-Russia contingent who has been doing a lot better off than ethnic Ukrainians? The side inundated online and in Russian language media with pro-Russia propaganda? The side that would welcome their Russian liberators?

[frazzled]

3. Yeah, he's been saying that (but it's largely just propaganda)

Posted last night, but for those who didn't see it, well worth the (long read):

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

[Benton D Struckcheon]

8. Thanks for posting that.

A nice palliative to the incessant apologias for Putin's revanchism that keep getting posted around here.

[Iliyah]

4. What are Ultra Nationalist?

[RobertEarl]

6. They are like our teabaggers

Remember how they shutdown the government recently?

And the opposition leader, Boehner, claimed the teabaggers made him do it!

[SolutionisSolidarity]

11. That's not fair to the teabaggers.

At least they didn't revere the NAZIs. They lacked the historical knowledge to understand the NAZIs, but they didn't revere them. With Svoboda running security, civil war was inevitable.

[sakabatou]

7. Riiiight...

[iamthebandfanman]

12. I see it like this..

If a part of the Ukraine would like to leave the Ukraine and start its own country, or in this case rejoin with Russia (the region in question predates the soviets as far as Russians controlling it)... that's their right. I don't think anyone should intervene in any way.
I don't think any of the partys involved are handling it correctly but that's easy for me to say as an outsider.



the russians have tons of strategic reasons to want Crimea back.. the more non-ice navel ports you have the better

while I can understand folks in the rest of the Ukraine aren't going to like it, I think maybe they should just accept it. it seems to not only be the will and want of Russia, but of the majority of people of that region.

[okaawhatever]

18. That's the whole thing, it's not the will of the majority. There are only 17% ethnic Russians in the

entire country. When a poll was done in 2011 72% of Ukrainians said they felt "ethnic Ukrainian" regardless of language spoken. You're buying into the propaganda. In the Crimea, only 58% are ethnic Russians. Since the younger voters tend to not favor annexation to Russia you likely wouldn't have a majority. Why do you think there's a "new" government in the Crimea? Hint: Putin's plant. Ditto the troops. They're not there to protect anyone, they're there to scare people into giving Putin his victory.

[freshwest]

19. Thanks for posting. Will read all at the link tomorrow. n/t