Peskov: Russia cannot persuade self-defense forces in east Ukraine to disarm
Source: Kiev Post
Russia has effectively lost influence over self-defense forces in Ukraine and cannot settle the situation on its own, Russian President's Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov said.
"Western sponsors (of the Kyiv authorities) are making a reservation all the time that self-defense forces in the southeast of the country are armed and show armed resistance. From now own Russia has effectively lost its influence of these people, like any other country has, because it will be impossible to persuade them to disarm and end resistance in the face of a direct threat to their life," Peskov told reporters on Saturday.
All this is driving the situation into a deadlock, he said.
"Despite its coherent attempts to follow the path of resolution, the path of dialogue, Russia has encountered provocative actions not only from Kyiv, but from its western sponsors as well," the spokesman said.
Read more: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/peskov-russia-cannot-persuade-self-defense-forces-in-east-ukraine-to-disarm-346098.html
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7962
(11,841 posts)That might work.
Its amazing that in this day and age, they actually think people will still believe stuff that they used to get away with 50 yrs ago.
But on the other hand, I guess they are getting away with it
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)"Never said that."
I don't remember when it occured (sometime when he was vice-president) or what it was about, but that sentence was proof that Dick Cheney wasn't ready for a 21st century world. Back in the 1980s, every news-story was basically he-said-she-said: The politician could always accuse the journalist of lying. But today we live in a world where everything is recorded and stored. Shooting back "Never said that." at a journalist isn't going to save you.
Likewise Putin is stuck in the past. He's a secret agent, a patriotic warrior, but also a relic of the Cold War. He thinks that military power is key to international power. (I guess, he doesn't remember the eruption of european anti-americanism during the Iraq-War.) He thinks, the world is still divided whereas it really is connected by trade and information-technologies. And nations threatening the stability of said network quickly become outcasts.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)Now if they didnt have any gas to sell, it may be a different story
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Given he wants to recreate the Soviet empire. I think time is not on his side though.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Sure it will, because the stenographers, I mean media, will never call them on it. EVER.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)
Turbineguy
(37,285 posts)Mr Putin has an exit.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,262 posts)The Kremlin’s announcement came after weeks of declarations from Russian officials that if Russian-speakers in restive eastern Ukraine came under threat, they would consider intervening in a conflict that has left several cities in the hands of pro-Russian separatists. On Friday, nine people were killed when the Ukrainian army launched its first major assault on a rebel stronghold and 34 died in clashes between pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian mobs in the Black Sea port city of Odessa.
“People are calling in despair, asking for help. The overwhelming majority demand Russian help,” Kremlin spokesman Dmitri Peskov told reporters Saturday. “All these calls are reported to Vladimir Putin.”
The Kremlin, however, has not yet decided how to respond, Peskov said. “This element is absolutely new to us,” he said, according to the Interfax newswire service. He said that Russian authorities have lost their ability to influence pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine and that they would not be able to resolve the increasingly violent situation alone.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/kremlin-says-it-is-weighing-response-to-thousands-of-pleas-for-help-from-ukraine/2014/05/03/da27fec6-d271-11e3-937f-d3026234b51c_story.html
I think Putin would like to be Obi Wan Kenobi - "help us, Vladimir Vladmirovich Putin - you're our only hope!"
Russia said Saturday it would be "ludicrous" to hold presidential elections in Ukraine amid the rising tension and growing violence in the country.
"After what happened in Odessa, against the background of the unwinding spiral of confrontation in the country's southeast, we do not understand what elections Kiev, European capitals and Washington are talking about," Xinhua quoted Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov as saying.
He accused Ukrainian authorities of being "direct accomplices" in the events in Odessa, in which at least 46 people were killed and over 170 others injured when pro- and anti-government protestors clashed Friday, saying "their hands are full of blood".
http://www.newindianexpress.com/world/Russia-Mocks-Ukraines-Presidential-Elections/2014/05/03/article2203827.ece
Igel
(35,270 posts)These would have been held under unsettled conditions. And be more important than just electing a president.
Russia was of the firm opinion that the elections for 5/11 would be perfectly valid.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,262 posts)nationwide, at least. You need a few weeks of calm and stability for candidates/proponents to make their case in a fair media environment.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)go home"--but of course, why would Russia do that? Putin wants instability and violence, now he's got it.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)the plan. Maybe, Putin is exactly where he wants to be. He was the one that called the meeting of the Security Council (maybe another should have done that). The sanctions upon Russia will be approximately useless. Because of NSA spying you having NATO stalwarts, like Germany, whose people favor Putin by 80 per cent. That was just posted here yesterday. A deal has to be reached soon, however, or there will be only one outcome. And preventing that outcome will cost a hell of a lot more than 17 billion from the IDF, plus whatever they can get from the "cash-rich" NATO countries.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)I'm pretty sure that everything in that post, other than Putin meeting with the Security Council, is wrong.
That's impressive.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)what the final denouement will be.
Response to ballyhoo (Reply #23)
Adrahil This message was self-deleted by its author.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Reminds me of Tariq Aziz's pronouncements on Saddam's Iraq.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)At least 42 people were killed in street battles between supporters and opponents of Russia in southern Ukraine that ended with dozens of pro-Russian protesters incinerated in a burning building, bringing the country closer to war.
---
It also spread the violence from the eastern separatist heartland to an area far from the Russian frontier, raising the prospect of unrest sweeping more broadly across a country of around 45 million people the size of France.
---
About 2,000 pro-Russian protesters gathered outside the burnt-out building, chanting: “Odessa is a Russian city.”
---
Oleg Konstantinov, a journalist covering the events for a local Internet site, said bullets had flown in the melee before the blaze: “I was hit in the arm, then I started crawling, and then got hit in the back and leg.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/dozens-killed-in-ukraine-street-battles-and-building-fire-1.1783207
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)put an end to this tomorrow by demanding restoration of the democratically elected government of Ukraine it helped topple. It could then begin negotiating with Russia for the return of Crimea. Otherwise, these dickheads (theirs and ours) are going screw around until they start WWIII.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)heavy weapons. Russia will never return Crimea. This would put them at death's door as a country. Why do you think the West facilitated the Kiev riots in the first place? They want to control all of Ukraine themselves directly or indirectly. No, if Putin is going to give in and let Russia fold, he may as well go down fighting. We will know what is going to happen very soon. And every meeting Russia has with China leading up to the new banking laws on July 1 will give clues as to how long NATO will survive.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)oil and natural gas producers on earth. It has the worlds 9th largest GDP, 5th largest military and is the world's 2nd largest nuclear power. I doubt it will collapse anytime soon. On the contrary, it is emerging from the dissolution of the Soviet Union and has, thanks to the greed and stupidity of our leaders, begun reclaiming its empire.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)offense intended suphurdunn.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)laurent
(57 posts)And I don't think anyone can unscramble it now. So the doomsday clock ticks closer to midnight.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)see that also. What kind of deal could be made to not have a declining superpower and a re-emerging one not lose face? I've put it on a PERT network and I can't see any options where all parties could be somewhat satisfied. The world bankers want war, and they pretty much control everything.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)And also, now that violence is spreading, does anybody have the means to get it back under control?
Not unrelated questions, I might add.
We should find out the answers real soon now.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)in these threads that has said about the same. At this point, what do you think will happen? This dilemma might even give Churchill pause.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)1.) There has been quite a bit of spontaneous public support from both sides right along in this dispute.
2.) The Kiev gov't doesn't have the means to restore order by force now, and never has had it.
3.) Yet it seems intent on doing just that.
So I expect more violence and disorder, probably for some time yet.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)is all leading to something else and is really scripted.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)People are meddling, but none of them have control.
The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)Regarding force, I suspect both sides are bluffing. I remain of the opinion Putin does not really mean to engage in a cross-border invasion, only at most a 'walk in' at invitation from puppet groups which hold unchallenged sway in the desired areas. I agree that the Kiev government may not have a wholly reliable instrument at its disposal to apply force. But if they resolve to act, as they seem to have done, and stick to it, I think they have a decent chance of prevailing. And I do not think Putin will send in regulars if he thinks they would meet resistance from regulars.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I'm still not inclined to think I know what Putin thinks. But I do think a lot of this is theatrical in nature, on both sides, and the danger is that it gets out of control, and I'd say we are just about there.
The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)The authorities in Kiev therefore have more room to actually move.
At this point, Putin can rely on a degree of reluctance by west European powers to take steps that would wreck Russia's economy, though those steps are well within their power. Roll an armored column west over the border into Ukraine, and that reluctance would evaporate like morning fog on a summer day. No one thinks Russia has a right to invade Ukraine.
No one outside the hard core of Putin cheerleaders disputes that the authorities in Kiev have a right to attempt to bring secessionist rebels to heel. They may feel their attempt to do so is botched or bungled, or even that it is a forlorn hope likely to fail, but not that they have no right to make the attempt. So their making the attempt to employ force to shut the rebellion down does not cross any lines which would make the situation into something it is not already.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Except it didn't, and there won't be two tries at it.
Putin, near as I can tell, doesn't have to do a thing, and it would be a mistake for him to do much more than blather and watch. It is the Kiev government that has something to prove and not much time to prove it.
King_Rat
(26 posts)The regular Ukranian Army, eviserated by desertion before this got started, has shown no desire to fight the people and were the Russians to cross the border they would probably give them the green light.The forces currently on the offensive seem to be National Guard, which is to say Right Sektor and Svoboda, which is to say Nazis.
Should these uniformed thugs encounter real regulars they will run away just as their Nazi ally forebearers did when they encountered the Red Army.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Unfortunately for those in the Red Army who lost their lives, and those of my family who died in concentration camps in the Baltics during 1941-1944, the Nazis did not behave as you describe. For nearly two years they were on the offensive against the Red Army. They did not "run away...when they encountered the Red Army".
My father will always be grateful to the Red Army for liberating him as will I for without them I would not exist. But your mischaracterization of what happened on the eastern front in the second world war insults everyone involved.
King_Rat
(26 posts)Yes, the Nazis were formidable, especially the first year or two. After that their effectiveness declined as the losses inflicted by the Red Army took their toll. But here we are speaking of the 'national legions' of the SS, the dregs of Europe in black uniform. Though a few had their moments generally they were only good for terrorizing civilians and performed poorly when faced with real soldiers.
Sorry you took that wrong, I have the greatest respect for the people of the Soviet Union, their sacrifice and achievement.
EX500rider
(10,798 posts)wtf? Don't know much about WWII on the Eastern Front I take it?
Between 1941 and 1945, the Axis powers took about 5.7 million Soviet prisoners, and the Soviets captured 3.5 million Axis servicemen.
Nobody did much "running away".
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Of course, he couldn't have gotten away with it. Soviet citizens knew well how deeply into the USSR and Russia the Germans had advanced.
The great patriotic war (how the Soviet Union described it) wouldn't have been particularly great or patriotic if the Germans had run the moment they saw the Red Army.
The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)They were still throwing pitched battles against Interior Ministry forces into the fifties, long after the Germans were gone and done....
King_Rat
(26 posts)by genocidal thugs kept in the field by OSS/CIA. As were Nazi 'stay-behind' operations. Meet the new boss.......
The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)Obviously, everyone in Ukraine, except a few dupes and agents of the CIA, positively adored the Soviet Union and communist leadership in the decade after WWII....
King_Rat
(26 posts)Though I daresay that relieving the surviving population of those genocidal swine might garner some appreciation.
There is considerable distance between being an unhappy camper and the beast Bandera who these clowns celebrate.
The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)To the degree your comment could be said to convey any coherent meaning, that meaning was that opposition to the Soviet Union under Bandera's banner in Ukraine after WWII only occurred because of the efforts of the OSS/CIA. That is nonesense.
King_Rat
(26 posts)The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)Said assistance did not create the resistance, nor was it essential to it. In fact, owing to Soviet penetration of western intelligence agencies, it is an open question whether their efforts did not help the Soviet more than they did resistance to them.
King_Rat
(26 posts)I chuckle.
As to CIA ops being counterproductive, that is legendary. Regardless, they aided those scum, as the US does today.
The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)Resistance was widespread, and rooted in a partisan movement numbering in the hundreds of thousands. That partisan movement itself was rooted in reaction to genocidal actions by the Soviets, and to a bitter and lost war for independence a generation earlier. Foreign intelligence agencies cannot create such things, nor can they sustain them; foreign intelligence agencies simply ride the wave and tell themselves and the people who give them their budgets that they did it all by themselves.
Response to The Magistrate (Reply #81)
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The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)If you devote enough time to it, you might actually learn something, and develop some understanding of the events.
At present, you are just plucking up factoids like shiny pebbles on a beach, and while there is some truth in the mystic's refrain that the whole of the universe may be discerned from a grain, this cannot be done by the method you are adopting....
When you could write yourself, out of your own studied knowledge a coherent short account of Ukrainian history from, say, the October Revolution to the death of Stalin, or the Twentieth Congress speech, there might be some possibility of a serious discussion with you.
Response to The Magistrate (Reply #83)
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The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)
Education you will have to provide for yourself, and you are making a very poor display at present. It is quite clear you know nothing of the history of the region, and in particular know nothing of the history of resistance there to the Soviet Union.
Response to The Magistrate (Reply #86)
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The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)I would expect better from a high school sophomore.
You seem to think crying "Nazi!' is enough establish you are not just indisputably right, but indisputably in the right, and it is not, particularly in this part of the world.
Among other things, Stalin by any count killed about twice as many people as Hitler, and killed them just as hard. Granted he had a bit more time and for most of it a larger pool to work with, but when the choice lies between Hitler and Stalin, as it did in Ukraine for quite some time, there is not much in the way of clean and clear choices available.
Response to The Magistrate (Reply #88)
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The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)Your confession of your ignorance, and of your inability to think coherently on either history or ethics, is duly noted, with the comment that so completely self-discrediting as statement as you have just produced is seldom encountered.
You have taken your moniker from a pretty decent book, though if you ever did read it, you show no sign of having understood or appreciated it.
"And he was King, not by strength alone, but King by cunning and luck and strength together."
King_Rat
(26 posts)particularly by allied and quisling troops, and Germans too. Else how did the line end up on the Elbe?
This is not to deny much hard fighting, but once a certain momentum is reach fronts collapse like a house of cards.
The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)I do not believe this gambit for an instant.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)and also believe Russia has nothing at all to do with the unrest in eastern Ukraine, they're lying to themselves.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)are partly associated with imminent massive job losses the east having been wholly reliant on exports to Russia - everything from arms to white goods. There are no substitute markets for those goods in the EU as they stand for a variety of reasons.
SolutionisSolidarity
(606 posts)Ukraine is clearly caught in the revived cold war between the US and Russia. The fact that Ukraine was in the Russian sphere and is being dragged into ours ought to tell you who is instigating the unrest, but Russia is clearly the bad guys because they don't like gay people, or something.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)down a Union building and torturing 30 people to death?
Of course they now want to defend themselves in East Ukraine against these armed murderers.
What great physical harm were the occupiers of a building doing anyway to deserve to be burned to death?
It is enlightening to see how many people even at DU can be so easily conned into one set of beliefs, and then how they hold on to those beliefs so dearly.
It is OK to quit wrong actions. It is Ok to quit wrong thinking.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,145 posts)What happened in Odessa was horrific, it was mob violence at its worst, and no one should have died.
But you frame it as though the Pro-Ukrainian side marched over unprovoked to the trade union building and burnt it down.
In fact, the day began with a peaceful pro-Ukrainian march, those protesters were attacked with sticks and rocks by the Pro-Russian side, the Pro-Ukrainian side started to throw sticks and rocks back at the Pro-Russians, and then the Pro-Russians started firing guns on the Pro-Ukrainians from the rooftops, killing several of them. After the police came up to disperse the situation, the Pro-Russians retreated to the trade union building and that's when the fire happened.
A horrible course of events. But it was escalated mob violence from both sides, not an unprovoked massacre as you claim.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)nice slant you put to it only blaming one side. Do you think it was right for the pro Russian side to shoot unarmed protesters?
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,145 posts)All I said was there was plenty of blame to go around for both sides.
You act as though the Pro-Ukrainian side just spontaneously went up to the trade union and burnt it. That's just not the case. There was a lot leading up to that point. And yes, there were Pro-Russians shooting people from the rooftop. I saw it live on TV with my own eyes.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)So, I agree with you.
There was someone on here yesterday claiming the pro-Russian side did not throw Molotovs off the building when clearly the pictures showed otherwise.
I doubt old "hit and run Freddy" will be back to actually acknowledge that he made a mistake.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,145 posts)Putin: Yeah, mmm, I was just wondering...if perhaps you could, mmm, you know, tone it down a bit, okay? Because that would be greeeaaaat.
Pro-Russian Militants: (Long silence, crickets chirping)
(Both start laughing hard)
Putin: Seriously though, say hello to our guys over there.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)"From now own Russia has effectively lost its influence of these people..."
I had been led to believe these "self-defense forces" were homegrown Ukrainian ethnic Russians. When did Mother Russia wield any influence over them? (Rhetorical, FTR.)
Essentially, Russia did not expect Ukraine to fight back. They are "surprised", per another thread. Hard to believe that resistance wasn't in their calculus, but it's clear that they are now backtracking as it's also clear that they are being viewed as the aggressors.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)at all. Don't confuse backtracking with "pause". Why would Putin make a reactive move without knowing what the West is going to do next after Odessa?
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)This was a response by the Ukrainian military. When did they become the "West"?
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)thinks all this started spontaneously? I am not as interested in the cause for the most recent battle as I am why all of this started. And I know this. And why did the Ukrainian military suddenly get so active?
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)cupcakes and bread made them do it, we all know that
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)That was clearly initiated by Ukrainians angry that EU integration, as had been promised, was shelved.
As for the Ukraine military, I can only guess. But I presume that they became involved as the "self-defense" mobs began to dramatically ramp up throughout the east and south. Why do you think they engaged?
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)with my perception and now weeks of study, we can no longer continue this discussion. When it is all over, you will firmly know who caused what you call the "Euromaidan". It has already been well documented. Later.
SolutionisSolidarity
(606 posts)They insult everyone for failing to angerly proclaim how awful it is that Russia is supporting the Eastern separatists, but are completely blind to the actions that their own government took to instigate and support the Maiden movement. This is not that complicated a situation, both the US and Russia are pursuing their own interests in Ukraine. The difference is that Russia is reacting to our actions. This was an obvious consequence to extending the borders of the West to Russia itself, as obvious as the fact that if Russian backed forces seized one of "our" countries, we'd be supporting the opposition forces the next day.
Liberals are about as useless at ending the Neo-liberal/Neo-conservative Pax Americana movement as they are at dealing with climate change, supporting workers rights, or ensuring a just distribution of income. For almost a decade I let my hatred of Bush and the Republicans convince me that supporting the best positioned anti-Republican candidate was the best that could be done under the circumstances. Now it's hard to tell why to bother, since the worst of the policies will continue regardless of who is in office.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)after the assault by the West. Your last statement is now gospel.
EX500rider
(10,798 posts)Dang that's almost funny!
I know, the secret assault by NATO where they sneaked troops across the border into the Crimea to stir up trouble.....wait, that's not what happened AT ALL.
The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)okaawhatever
(9,457 posts)to teach us the "truth" about what happened. Completely blinded to the truth. It's all the West's fault. It was all planned by the West/Bankers/Oil Companies. Truth is, the 5 Billion was since 1991 and has been accounted for in all the program budgets. Most of the money went to health and security programs. Not only that, Obama had pretty much let Europe handle the Ukraine situation. That is one mistake he did make. I think it's obvious that we didn't have a plan where Ukraine was concerned and should have. Europe may have had a plan, but it didn't work well for them.
Yanukovych was running a corrupt government. Shortly after reelection he switched back to the pre-2006 Constitution. The one that helped cause the Orange Revolution because it gave the President too much power. If someone is re-elected and does the same thing that caused a revolution the first time, chances are it won't end well.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)is inevitable in the so-called 'West'.
PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The short version is, "Advising and encouraging" is something that tons of countries do and is legal. If the Russians advise and encourage the militia movement to engage in a civil war here in the US, that would not entitle us to invade the oil rich regions of Canada or to invade Cuba.
Armed invasion and annexation is a war crime.
Various countries have PACs here in the US that attempt to influence us to do all kinds of things. One of the more talked about ones is AIPAC. AIPAC is not illegal.
Those who defend Russia's actions here are using strikingly similar arguments to the post Iraq war arguments used by Republicans to justify the Iraq war.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Which Putin probably didn't foresee. He is so surrounded by sycophants that he didn't think there would be significant blowback.
truthisfreedom
(23,138 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Chris Christie has a bridge he would like to sell you.
truthisfreedom
(23,138 posts)Weak, putrid, drunk...
RedFury
(85 posts)...dictating the terms of the conflict and confidently standing up to the US & their NATO acolytes.
