Ukraine's Poroshenko signs EU accord
Source: RTE
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has said the signing of an association accord with the EU marked a "historic day" that offered his ex-Soviet country a fresh start after years of political instability.
The accord will seal closer political and economic between Ukraine and the European Union.
Mr Poroshenko signed the accord this morning at a ceremony in Brussels.
He said it offered "an absolutely new perspective for my country ... it is a historic day, the most important day since independence".
Read more: http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0627/626861-ukraine/
Congratulations to the Ukrainian people, who just won a important battle in his fight for a free and prosper Ukraine !
Georgia and Moldova just did the same :
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28038725
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elias49
(4,259 posts)
newthinking
(3,982 posts)largest trading partner. Not to mention that despite all the hot air Kyiv the "15 point plan" does not appear to offer any real autonomy for regions which means more war.
For years I had hoped for Ukraine to become part of the EU! But this package coupled with allowing fascist groups into the government is trashing the country.
How is Ukraine going to pay back the loans? Especially given that they are going to end up spending much of the money simply staving off a depression? In addition, Yats and most of the regional and city governors are the simply more oligarchy in a different costume?
Ukraine will be lucky to even have anything near equality in travel. The poorer there still won't even be able to get visas to visit the EU unless they take a slave labor position.
This is not an equal partnership. Instead the illegitimate Kyiv junta sold the country into financial bondage for a ways into the future.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)EU's exports will increase whereas Ukraine's exports will diminish significantly due to restricted demand.
On the subject of visas - with the correct biometric passport type, assuming both they and associated holidays are affordable, the entire population will have Schengen Visas for 90 day max visits anywhere within the Schengen zone : currently foreseen to be 2015.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Lots of countries have trade agreements with many countries and trade with many other countries under normal trading rules.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)Putin has been trying to keep Ukraine from signing the EU deal.
He wanted Ukraine to join his Eurasian trading block instead.
pampango
(24,692 posts)If the US embargoed trade with Mexico because it signed a trade deal with, say, Venezuela that would not be mexico's fault. It would be our fault for acting like a bully towards a smaller neighbor.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)Just as we are in Central and South America.
Russia is acting like a bully here. That may play well inside Russia, but eventually, bullying behavior is not in the best interests of the bully.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)agreements and not really meant to create a favorable playing field for all.
And the fact is that though the media never provides a realistic look at things, a very large reason that Ukraine stayed afloat was because Russia was subsidizing Ukraine's industries.
pampango
(24,692 posts)does not stop it from trading with any other country in the world.
And Mexico has an FTA with the EU. That did not cause the US to threaten Mexico with cutting trade ties.
Whether Ukraine's trade agreement with the EU ends up being good or bad for Ukrainians in the long run, it certainly has a sovereign right to conclude such an agreement. The US should not tell Mexico whom it can negotiate agreements with and Russia should not do that to Ukraine either.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)much of which would breech EU rules so cannot be exported elsewhere by Ukraine aside from which Russia apparently isn't price sensitive - Ukraine charges what it feels like.
On agricultural produce very little of their output matches EU requirements. You would not believe some the EU's past antics http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1084904/Curly-courgettes-bumpy-tomatoes-EU-allow-misshapen-veggies-dinner-table.html I doubt that Russians give a fuck what shape a fruit or veggies is.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)RUSSIA
http://eeas.europa.eu/russia/index_en.htm
Use drop down list for all countries.
http://europa.eu/index_en.htm
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Poroshenko knows who keeps him and is Right Sector (read as Nazi) allies in power, so he will do what he is told.
The West may have his back, but our bankers and energy tycoons will pick the pockets of every working and middle class Ukrainian in return. The IMF will give a little money now and then, but they expect to run the Ukrainian economy "their way." It matters little what the people want or need, the piper will have to be paid.
Xolodno
(7,350 posts)First thing that will happen, Ukraine will lose access to Russian Markets (Less to sell to).
Then you have the obvious problem they will have to start paying market rates for energy (increasing costs of production).
They are in for a nasty recession.
But one silver lining...most of the Ukraine's eastern and trained labor force will emigrate or "refugee" to Russia. So unemployment won't be as bad as it could have. Russia will just build and set up modern facilities on their side and employ those workers which were already previously exporting to (of course now, they won't be importing from Ukraine).
Poroshenko is right, this is historical.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)And then fascists seize the power in Kiev through another violent coup? Who knows?
Xolodno
(7,350 posts)...but if it did, it will be an act of desperation which will either plunge the nation into chaos (and the EU will then beg for Putin to intervene). Or blow up badly in their faces (populace rages against political group viewed as responsible).
Those who are for this either are emotional with nationalism or happy because they "stuck it to that LGBT hater Putin"....reality is...
Putin has won. He's got Crimea and the "refugee's that have crossed into Russia" are no doubt the skilled workforce from East Ukraine. I'd bet a lot of important equipment went over the border as well.
Ukraine's choices for the future are:
1. A long term economically weak and poor country.
or
2. Return to the fold of Russia...which Poroshenko will lead should the populace finally scream uncle. Nothing better turns a populace against a popular nationalistic idea like severely worsening conditions as a result of it.
Why else would Putin call for a longer ceasefire?
http://news.yahoo.com/russias-putin-calls-long-term-ukraine-ceasefire-peace-095152451.html
He's got what he wants
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)And it isn't President Putin who is stopping government forces from taking them either.
Xolodno
(7,350 posts)...for a long, long time. Resulting in Kiev never being able to fully exploit, redevelop, etc. the industries there.
The neo-con view of the world is a myth....but a dangerous one none the less. In that it over simplifies world views and really appeases to "hearing what you want to hear". Thus, not really fully understanding or dismissing any ripple effects that could completely undermine what you were trying to attempt.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)That's 2% combined between the two party's respective cabinets.
And that Svoboda only represents 8% of the total parliament and holds only 3 relatively minor positions in the Cabinet, correct?
And that Right Sector holds zero--yes, zero--seats in either parliament or the Cabinet.
The pro-Russian spin of creating the great paper tiger that is Svoboda and Right Sector is quite amusing and yet quite pathetic.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)It is that they can assemble this kind of a group, in the center Kiev, any time they wish, and then count on them to perform any act of violence required. Note in the example offered below that none of the police officers present dares to directly confront any of the masked rioters. Want to guess why? Because they are members of Right Sector and Svoboda, and to mess with one of them can bring swift revenge:
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)I can't speak to exactly what happened in the video and the context around it (given that RT is the only source in which it is coming), but in the end, it doesn't matter. Any hooliganism aside, Right Sector's a non-factor in terms of Ukrainian politics.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)You simply are pointing out that the government in Kyiv is again, not representative, or Right Sector and Svoboda would not have the positions they have.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)And all Svoboda has is one of three Deputy PM positions and the Ministry of Agriculture and Natural Resources.
You make it as though Poroshenko and Yatesnyuk themselves are Svoboda or Right Sector.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Yet you still insist on a this dishonest narrative. Nothing will get resolved as long as Kyiv doesn't fix what are legitimate issues.
I imagine you do not support neo-nazi's in real life. Then why are you so tolerant and supportive of them on this board?
Granted, getting information regarding Ukraine (and keeping up) and it's government is not easy.
Though I did discover today that Poroshenko has replaced Oleg Makhnitsky (Svoboda), so hopefully Poroshenko may be working on removing the majority of these guys. Unfortunately severe damage has been done and it will be difficult to re-unite the country.
Andriy Parubiy - National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine - Co-founder of Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok
Dmytro Yarosh, second-in-command of the National Defense and Security Council - Right Sector neo-Nazi commander
Oleksandr Sych is one of three Vice Prime Ministers member of neo-Nazi Svoboda
Oleg Makhnitsky Prosecutor-General (Attorney General) member of neo-Nazi Svoboda
Education Ministry Serhiy Kvit member of neo-Nazi Svoboda
Andriy Makhnyk Ecology Ministry, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda
Ihor Shvaiko Agriculture Ministry, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda
Tetyana Chernovol, chair of the government’s anti-corruption committee, UNA-UNSO (half of the organization founded Right Sector)
Dmytro Bulatov, Minster for Youth and Sports, UNA-UNSO
This does not include lower level but still powerful positions which are reported to have many right sector and svoboda members as well.
Ihor Tenyukh was Minister of Defense until he resigned for unknown reasons the day after Oleksandr Muzychko was killed - Svoboda
Foreign Policy: Yes there are "bad guys" in the Ukraine government
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/yes_there_are_bad_guys_in_the_ukrainian_government
Today, Svoboda holds a larger chunk of its nation's ministries (nearly a quarter, including the prized defense portfolio) than any other far-right party on the continent. Ukraine's deputy prime minister represents Svoboda (the smaller, even more extreme "Right Sector" coalition fills the deputy National Security Council chair), as does the prosecutor general and the deputy chair of parliament -- where the party is the fourth-largest. And Svoboda's fresh faces are scarcely different from the old: one of its freshmen members of parliament is the founder of the "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" and has hailed the Holocaust as a "bright period" in human history.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)Its exports are reasonably industrial, which is good: http://atlas.media.mit.edu/profile/country/ukr/
List of Russia's. Nothing, almost, but petroleum and its byproducts: http://atlas.media.mit.edu/profile/country/rus/
In the short term it will be painful, but over the longer term it'll be much better for them. Russia has no future; under Putin it's become a shockingly primitive supply region for energy. The more they loosen their economic ties to Russia, the better.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)the Eurozone has no future...it will be gone in ten years or less--either blown apart by inequity or morphed into something that will be totally different than what it is today: a form of enslavement and exploitation of many for the 1% Elite, the Banksters, and Germany.
Poroshenko has signed Ukraine's death warrant.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)just committed political and countrywide suicide.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)But their economies are in way better shape than Russia's. It's not even close.
Look at this list of exports, according to the site I listed in my previous:
Crude Petroleum (37%), Refined Petroleum (17%), Petroleum Gas (13%), Coal Briquettes (2.6%), and Raw Aluminium (1.5%)
List of imports:
Cars (6.9%), Packaged Medicaments (3.6%), Vehicle Parts (2.8%), Computers (1.8%), and Broadcasting Equipment (1.6%)
Third world countries have that profile, not advanced industrial nations.
The US, for comparison:
Exports:
Refined Petroleum (6.3%), Cars (3.5%), Packaged Medicaments (2.5%), Vehicle Parts (2.4%), and Planes, Helicopters, and/or Spacecraft (2.3%)
Imports:
Crude Petroleum (15%), Cars (6.1%), Computers (4.1%), Refined Petroleum (4.1%), and Vehicle Parts (2.5%)
The thing to note is not just the products list, although that looks bad enough for Russia. If you take all of the exports of the US and add up the percentages, the top 5 don't come close to the percentage of Russia's dependence on its first in the list: crude petroleum exports. The US's exports are not only all processed products of some sort, there's also no overwhelming dependency on any one of them.
Russia's a primitive supply region. It has no future.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)other than helping the timely demise of the petrodollar recycling program and with that and the end of the US$ as a currency reserve.
Is the Dollar Dying? Why US Currency Is in Danger http://www.cnbc.com/id/100461159#.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)It's in far worse shape.
Your country, the UK, can still borrow in its own currency, even though it long ago lost its status as the premier reserve currency. It is still a reserve currency though, just not the first one. That's mostly due to just size: if a country holding pound denominated assets wants to sell those to defend its own currency, the amount it can sell is limited due to their being less liquidity in pounds.
The yuan will one day be a reserve currency, and may be the prime one in the lifetime of the younger folks on this planet. The ruble has never been and will never be as long as everyone knows Russia as a petroleum supply region.
You really shouldn't comment on stuff you so obviously have no clue about.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Like China, Russia is having a Renaissance in it's economy. While they will have challenges, this does not look like a dying economy.
Granted, Oil wealth is pushing hard, but Russia is spending heavily on infrastructure.
Russian debt:
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)Prior to their getting involved in Ukraine, this year was looking like a year where FDI was finally going to be directed more at non-energy related stuff. The initial reaction of the Western folks doing that investment was leaning heavily towards cancellation where possible.
A leader interested in the actual well-being of his people would have maintained the peace and allowed that FDI to do its work. Putin, obviously, isn't interested in that. He's interested in the outer trappings of military power. Oil wealth is a nice get-rich-quick scheme for acquiring that.
pampango
(24,692 posts)It's the EU that Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia signed this agreement with the EU not just with the Eurozone. So far Poland, Bulgaria, Romania and other eastern European countries have signed similar agreements with the EU. None of them have not died.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)Cyprus, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and soon, France and Finland. This is the future for anyone who isn't Germany.
pampango
(24,692 posts)While many citizens of those countries disagree with EU policies a majority do not want their countries to pull out of the EU. Those that do are predominantly right-wingers. Similarly I disagree with many US policies but I don't think Ohio would be better off out of the US.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)European Union Association Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Association_Agreement
Yes - with the EU : not the Eurozone.
Xolodno
(7,350 posts)Russia's economic comparative advantage right now is energy. They would be foolish not to use it. It would be like Saudi Arabia refusing to trade their rich oil deposits. There best bet is to trade with it and use the profits to redevelop other industries.
Much of Russia's industries are still recovering and modernizing from the inefficient Soviet era and Yeltsin boondoggle. That doesn't get fixed overnight.
For example, Machinery is 30% of their economy and used predominately within....and they still have a need to import Machinery.
The Eurasian Economic Union is essentially an industrial redevelopment program...which Ukraine (eastern Ukraine specifically) would be a part of. But as I stated in another post...Putin won. He's got warm water ports (Crimea) and has probably yanked the essential production functions from eastern Ukraine.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)But the thing is this: this is Putin's third term. Including Medvedev, he's either been Prez or Prime Minister for 14 straight years, so the import/export profile I displayed there is a direct result of his policies. It's not like Russia lacks the human capital; their educational system churns out excellent math/sci/engineering folks like their sausages. So the fact they can't sell processed goods abroad can only be because they have a gov't more interested in extracting the rents from the resources they sit on because they take up 1/6th of the land mass of the planet rather than follow policies that would allow those people to beat up on the tech stuff the West produces.
His taking the east would only allow him to follow through on maintaining Russia's position as the world's number two arms exporter, after the US. Another sterile pursuit, and another one that certainly doesn't advance anything except the cause of human misery. (There's four former Soviet republics on that list, which is certainly an outsized representation. One gets the feeling the EEU was meant - had he gotten Ukraine to join, as they're one of them - to be more of an arms export union than anything else.)
16 years of Putin, and more than two decades since the fall of the USSR. I think by now we're seeing the result of post-communist policy, most of it a version of neo-liberal claptrap (their flat tax is beloved of Western reactionaries, and I've already documented elsewhere their close ties to Europe's far right). It's not pretty.
Xolodno
(7,350 posts)Yes...arms exports. Which was their bread and butter during the cold war...and since its end, the US MIC has profited greatly due to little competition. They know they can compete on arms...so that's where they are headed. They haven't been devoted to making tractors since Hitler invaded...they don't know any other industry other than arms manufacturing (and I'm betting the US MIC is not happy about this).
Other than exporting Stolyichnya and Russian Standard, they haven't known much of a peace time economy (nor has the USA...how many awesome Zenith or RCA TV's have you heard about?). Arms export is the safe bet for now. Putin is not going to be in charge forever, Medvedev has shown to be more pragmatic and as you alluded to, they have plenty of smart people. Sooner or later, an industry there will rise that won't be energy or arms (assuming a nut job doesn't take power)...and they have been making all the right friends...the EU (hence why the EU had to hold its nose when implementing the sanctions...then again, they may be circumventing those right now), China, India, Brazil, etc. You can't expect a nation that was in economic tatters (couldn't even afford to feed its military) and indebted to the IMF to be a jewel in Europe in 16 years.
I don't see Russia becoming Soviet Union 2.0, they know all to well it failed. But the nation I do see following the Soviet Union tracks?....the one I'm living in.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)Arms exports are sterile; if anything they hurt a country's competitiveness by taking engineers who could be working on something useful and instead putting them to work designing stuff that destroys other stuff.
Putin & Medvedev have been in charge for a long enough time that the entire blame for the sorry state of Russia falls on their shoulders. If it's going to change, it will be when someone else with a different vision for the country is allowed to take over.
Bosonic
(3,746 posts)BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Ukraine signed on Friday an historic free-trade agreement with the European Union that has been at the heart of months of violence and upheaval in the country, drawing an immediate threat of "grave consequences" from Russia.
Georgia and Moldova signed similar deals, holding out the prospect of deep economic integration and unfettered access to the EU's 500 million citizens, but alarming Moscow which is concerned about losing influence over former Soviet republics.
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKBN0F20N420140627
A senior adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin has lashed out at Ukraine's president ahead of the signing of a controversial EU deal.
Sergei Glazyev said Petro Poroshenko was a "Nazi" and his endorsement of the deal was "illegitimate".
Mr Poroshenko is expected to sign the full association agreement at the EU summit in Brussels later.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28049565
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)No matter what happens, there will always people on the Russian side claiming the same things.
Ukraine holds presidential elections with heavy oversight by foreign observers, who deem the vote to be fair and democratic? No matter. The Ukrainian government will always be "illegitimate".
Candidates for far right ultranationalist parties in Ukraine only muster a 2% showing in the elections? No matter. The Ukrainian government will always be "run by neo-Nazis."
It's the same old tired song.
Billy Budd
(310 posts)
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko believes the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the European Union will not be ratified by the Ukrainian parliament in the current session.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poroshenko-rada-wont-ratify-association-agreement-with-eu-in-current-session-353762.html
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)An interesting fact about the Euromadian Protests is that they've come to be known by many Ukrainians as the "Revolution of Dignity."
When Yanukovych spurned the EU in favor of Russia last year, it was the tipping point for most Ukrainians. Let's not forget that Russia is a country ruled by a person who is widely reported to have denied Ukraine's very existence as a country. So the mere thought of Ukraine being further subservient to a country that doesn't even bother to acknowledge its existence was anathema to millions of Ukrainians, and they literally took to the streets in protest.
That is something that is completely lost on naïve westerners who go on and on and on about the EU and IMF and what they see as possible negative implications for Ukraine down the road. This was more than just about the EU for most Ukrainians. This was about their dignity as a people regarding their very existence.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Yes, the majority appeared interested in further integration with Europe. But not in this way.
Seriously, you would think that given:
A. The parties in maidan were not winning elections; the party of Regions coallation was the majority; and since there was already an agreement to move up elections they obviously did not believe they could win and thus jumped the coup.
B. None of the parties in maidan were succesful in the Presidential election, even though significant voters of the East either boycotted or could not vote, and despite the Party of Regions or structure having been heavily compromised by terror, firebombing, threat of jail, beatings.
Not even the press is presenting Maidan as a majority anymore.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)The Maidan protests were huge, ranging up to 400,000 people on some days. And that's not counting the demonstrations that were taking place in other cities in Ukraine (both in the west and the east) at the same time.
The sentiment behind Maidan had the support of the majority of Ukrainian population. Far more Ukrainians favored joining the EU over forming a trade alliance with Russia. Numbers don't lie:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/more-than-half-of-ukrainians-want-to-join-eu-poll-shows/495753.html
Additionally, at the time of Maidan, Yanukovych was already heavily unpopular and would have likely lost the next election.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/poll-yanukovych-to-lose-to-opposition-candidates-in-second-round-of-presidential-elections-334239.html
Furthermore, while Poroshenko was not a member of any one political party, he was a very active and vocal supporter of the Maidan protests. The second place finisher was Yulia Tymoshenko, whose Batkivshchyna party was heavily involved in the Maidan protests.
Regarding the situation in the East during the presidential elections, portions of Luhansk and Donetsk provinces not under pro-Russian separatist control did participate in the elections. There were attempts to have the city of Donetsk itself participate in the elections, but the seperatists interfered with the process and destroyed the voting equipment. Ballot boxes were destroyed and marked with placards reading "Trash". So it wasn't the Ukrainian government who was suppressing the vote in the eelcion.
The majority of Ukrainians do not want to be a vassal state of Russia. Period.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)That leads back to the black and white narrative which is completely untrue.
Most people in the US agree that corporations have to much power over government here, but that does not mean everyone would support any party with that platform. Yes, many people were interested in getting closer to the EU, but also many people were not, and a great many just wanted whatever gave their families the best life.
I am anti-war and so are many libertarians, but I sure as hell would not support libertarians in office.
Any way you crunch the numbers the Parties in power were a minority, because THEY LOST most ELECTIONS. Even the time they did win an election (because people wanted to give the "Orange Revolution" a chance) they were able to barely keep power, lost the next election, and they have not nearly won an election since. That is a history that clearly shows those parties did not represent the majority.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)And the majority of that opinion did support the causes championed in Maidan. There's no getting around that. Most Ukrainians do not want to live under Moscow's thumb, and were willing to support the alternative (association with the EU) instead.
Spin all you want.
fireflysky46
(224 posts)There not more economical inequality in Ukraine than in most european countries, and in fact the contrary :
Russia : 42
UK : 34
France 32.7
Ukraine : 27.6
About Gini coef :
The Gini coefficient measures the inequality among values of a frequency distribution (for example levels of income). A Gini coefficient of zero expresses perfect equality, where all values are the same (for example, where everyone has the same income). A Gini coefficient of one (or 100%) expresses maximal inequality among values (for example where only one person has all the income).
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Neo-Nazi's in executive positions in Ukraine's government:
Andriy Parubiy - National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine - Co-founder of Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok
Dmytro Yarosh, second-in-command of the National Defense and Security Council - Right Sector neo-Nazi commander
Oleksandr Sych is one of three Vice Prime Ministers member of neo-Nazi Svoboda
Oleg Makhnitsky Prosecutor-General (Attorney General) member of neo-Nazi Svoboda
Education Ministry Serhiy Kvit member of neo-Nazi Svoboda
Andriy Makhnyk Ecology Ministry, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda
Ihor Shvaiko Agriculture Ministry, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda
Tetyana Chernovol, chair of the government’s anti-corruption committee, UNA-UNSO (half of the organization founded Right Sector)
Dmytro Bulatov, Minster for Youth and Sports, UNA-UNSO
This does not include lower level but still powerful positions which are reported to have many right sector and svoboda members as well.
Ihor Tenyukh was Minister of Defense until he resigned for unknown reasons the day after Oleksandr Muzychko was killed - Svoboda
Poroshenko has replaced Oleg Makhnitsky (Svoboda) last week, so hopefully Poroshenko may be working on removing the majority of these guys. Unfortunately severe damage has been done and it will be difficult to re-unite the country.
Foreign Policy: Yes there are "bad guys" in the Ukraine government
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/yes_there_are_bad_guys_in_the_ukrainian_government
Today, Svoboda holds a larger chunk of its nation's ministries (nearly a quarter, including the prized defense portfolio) than any other far-right party on the continent. Ukraine's deputy prime minister represents Svoboda (the smaller, even more extreme "Right Sector" coalition fills the deputy National Security Council chair), as does the prosecutor general and the deputy chair of parliament -- where the party is the fourth-largest. And Svoboda's fresh faces are scarcely different from the old: one of its freshmen members of parliament is the founder of the "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" and has hailed the Holocaust as a "bright period" in human history.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=835803
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Those protesting were representative only of those protesting - not necessarily proportionate to their whole population.
Only parliamentary elections will now make clear what's what.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)the maidan.
But regardless, anyone trying to claim the parties in power represent the majority is living in a fantasy narrative. The only "majority" was the "majority of powerful and moneyed backers" and the sympathy and bias of the "majority" of the western press.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)Or that the issues they raised--political corruption, concern about Russian intergration--weren't real concerns shared by millions of Ukrainians.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)I don't disagree that millions in the country don't share the concerns about political corruption.
But as I said, individual issues cross political bounderies but that has little to do with the legitimacy of the kyiv junta.
just because millions of anti-war liberals and libertarians agree does not mean we would go for them forcefully taking control in washington and then disinfranchise and ignore our voice in everything else.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)And what are your sources?
And regarding your labeling of the interim government (and possibly the subsequent Poroshenko administration) as a illegitimate "junta", is it your opinion that any government that takes power following a revolution by a massive amount of people to be "illegitimate" and/or a "junta"? Wouldn't that render our own country's status illegitimate as well?
You've not shown thus far that what happened in February was in fact a "coup". If indeed it was along the lines of the revolution (as I believe it to be), would that in fact change the situation?
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)they wanted to be completely disenfranchised.
Even those who support the current government admit that the current government is not representative. They just think it is ok if it goes on for some time. Which is easy to say when it is *your* representation, or you are an outside party.
Just because liberals and Right wingers want justice for the dishonest bankers does not mean that we will be fine with the Right Wing taking power unless through a full democratic process.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)...and away from Russia.
Whether people who agreed with this principle actually participated in the Maidan protests or not--or whether or not they are members of parties that were pivotal in Maidan--is really beside the point.
The majority of Ukrainians wanted this to happen. Period.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)you have never traveled there?
I entirely disagree. Most wanted peace and a better life. But those in Kyiv they do not want. In fact at this point the only people who are happy with the existing government are only the hard core nationalists.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)I'm first generation Ukrainian.
What I'm talking about goes beyond the existing government and speaks to the direction of the country in general.
And yes, they do want peace and a better life. And a majority of Ukrainians do not see that happening if the country is under the shadow of Russia. Public opinion polls support this.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)like with any social group, you tend to hear from those in your own social group. Just like people who immigrate to another country often have different outlooks toward their home country than the general population. That is just human nature.
So is your family from the west? Can you make an honest disclosure about your families feelings toward Stephen Bandera?
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)But that particular fact about me has no impact whatsoever on public opinion polls that have been taken of Ukrainians all over the country, in both the east and the west. And the majority in those polls shows that more Ukrainians favor an alliance with Europe over one with Russia. And there's historical reasoning for such sentiment. You can attack me for perceived bias all that you like, but numbers don't lie.
Bandara's a highly controversial historical figure who's been dead for almost 55 years now. That pretty much sums up his relevance in 2014.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)But I am not so sure it is nearly so prevalent at this point.
TC, if you have been paying attention to the content of my posts I have always myself preferred Ukraine in the EU.
The problems in Ukraine are not about EU/nonEU/Russian Federation integration.
It is *what happened in Kiev*, and what Kiev has done.
Can't you try and empathize with what you are missing? If a minority of Right Wingers replaced the government to for something we all may have generally agreed on, say saving the economy, then proceeds to reduce and disenfranchise the Democratic Party, replaces the government with many fascists, and tolerates fascist groups on the group causing disorder and destroying people and property, and even welcomes them into the military, we would have no different response.
And we would be right in our response.
Cause and effect. Sorry, but in the liberal world Machievellian approaches are not acceptable.
Just because Neo-Nazi's want a strong Ukraine does not mean people want them in power.
This is all Kyivs fault. The Ukrainian people are very tolerant. If they would have swept in a way that showed tolerance and moderation towards the other half of the electorate, and *intolerance* for neo-nazi's, this would have been avoided. They likely could have been persuaded with assurances of future votes.
You need to get away from your unipolar understanding and accept that what happened was not democratic nor wise, and it is in danger of destroying what is supposedly believes in (as well as many innocents)
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)You keep on insinuating that what happened in February 2014 was some sort of a coup, and yet you haven't provided me with facts to back such an assertion up.
There was a regime change. By all appearances, it seems to fit under what is popularly known as a revolution. There were massive protests against the president, these protests did not subside even after a violent crackdown, and ultimately the president choose to leave the country under his own manpower rather than continue to face the ire of these protests. Which you should know isn't the same thing as a coup. Now if you want to go ahead and demonize all revolutions as being undemocratic and spawning illegitimate regimes, go ahead, but then we have to look at our roots as Americans in that case.
You insist on making the issue about Right Sector and Svoboda. Those are two small parties with little public support in Ukraine. Just look at the last presidential election there if you don't believe me. One has no representation whatsoever in the government, and the other holds three fairly insignificant positions in the Cabinet. Beyond that, the fact that these ultranationalist parties exist in Ukraine--what of it? It's a paper tiger and a red herring, and if you do in fact believe that the best choice for Ukraine is to move away from Russia and towards Europe, you're best avoiding such a false narrative propagated by the Russian media and supporters of armed pro-Russian separatists.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)I am very good at finding such things out as I have IT experience in search engines.
I stand by the list. I used Ukraine government sources to identify the people, researched their backgrounds, and researched the parties. Those are all definitely Neo-Nazi parties. Just because they have been taught by PR firms (maidan works with the Ukraine Crisis Media Center, a US PR firm, and Right Sector has infiltrated and strong in maidan at this point (I think they have to some extent driven out more moderates), they shifted some time ago how they describe themselves and are careful to groom a certain appearance. Ukrainians are a sophisticated people, even ones with broken minds.
The Italian mafia did the same thing. In many ways they modernized their image and have many legitimate business connections now.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,499 posts)But you've not done so. So how am I supposed to take you at your word if you can't substantiate your claims?
fireflysky46
(224 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)[center]''The EU is gonna let me join, even with the Cooties!''
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Sunlei
(22,651 posts)The full member countries enjoy open borders, no visas are needed to travel.