Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:41 AM Jul 2014

MH17 Shootdown May Have Been A 'mistake' By Pro-Russian Rebels: US

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by DonViejo (a host of the Latest Breaking News forum).

Source: Agence France-Presse

Malaysian flight MH17 may have been shot down by 'mistake' by ill-trained pro-Russian separatists, US intelligence officials said on Tuesday, while dismissing Moscow's accounts of the incident as propaganda.

Evidence gathered so far suggests separatists launched the SA-11 surface-to-air missile that blew up the Malaysian airliner on July 17, but it remains unclear "who pulled the trigger" and why, said a senior intelligence official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

"The most plausible explanation... was that it was a mistake," and that the missile was fired by "an ill-trained crew" using a system that requires some skill and training, the official said.

The intelligence official cited previous incidents over the years in which both Russian and US forces have mistakenly shot down civilian airliners.


Read more: http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/mh17/mh17-shootdown-may-have-been-mistake-by-pro-russian-rebels-us/article1-1243522.aspx#sthash.JcfR5jLZ.dpuf

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
MH17 Shootdown May Have Been A 'mistake' By Pro-Russian Rebels: US (Original Post) Purveyor Jul 2014 OP
Yeah, no one that I've seen has said the idiots knew it was a Malaysian passenger plane with Cha Jul 2014 #1
Actually billhicks76 Jul 2014 #2
Please tell me what "credible sources" say Flight 800 was shot down. moriah Jul 2014 #5
Well the problem with that is how do you define who a terrorist is? davidpdx Jul 2014 #7
35000 feet would have made no difference. ColesCountyDem Jul 2014 #19
Crap davidpdx Jul 2014 #20
Yup. ColesCountyDem Jul 2014 #21
Terrorists don't distinguish between civilian and military. joshcryer Jul 2014 #16
I think the possibility that the idiots were drunk and decided to just shoot the damn thing off davidpdx Jul 2014 #8
Then how do you explain the U.S.S. Vincennes shootdown of the Iranian plane in the 80s daleo Jul 2014 #13
Mistake or not, I hope those who are responsible rot in prison davidpdx Jul 2014 #3
Precisely, david.. I don't know who would be in charge of that happening though since Russia Cha Jul 2014 #4
Maybe they should start hiring Chris Christie's PR firm davidpdx Jul 2014 #9
Yeah, RT.. what we say goes. End of story. Cha Jul 2014 #10
We snowjob you, you listen davidpdx Jul 2014 #12
So are we to assume Maynar Jul 2014 #6
SAM targeting is almost foolproof... heat seeking and proximity fuses lapfog_1 Jul 2014 #11
Even highly trained U.S. Naval crews have shot down civilian airliners daleo Jul 2014 #15
The flight profiles of an An-26 and Boeing 777 are hugely different. joshcryer Jul 2014 #17
I think it almost certainly was unintended. bluedigger Jul 2014 #14
It's questionable as to its benefits to Ukraine. joshcryer Jul 2014 #18
Locking... DonViejo Jul 2014 #22

Cha

(297,184 posts)
1. Yeah, no one that I've seen has said the idiots knew it was a Malaysian passenger plane with
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:47 AM
Jul 2014

hundreds of people aboard. Just one more "military plane" for them to shoot down.

 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
2. Actually
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:56 AM
Jul 2014

It has been implied it was a terrorist act. It's interesting the US is backing off suddenly. Our government lied about TWA800 which almost all credible sources agree was mistakenly shot down by a US missile during a training excercise. I personally know the engineer CNN brought on to dismiss this theory and he got in trouble for disguising end use research for fuel air explosions as elevator shaft dust explosions while doing military research previously banned at the university.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
5. Please tell me what "credible sources" say Flight 800 was shot down.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:07 AM
Jul 2014

Are they the same ones that think Bush LIHOP?

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
7. Well the problem with that is how do you define who a terrorist is?
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:11 AM
Jul 2014

They were talking about this on CNN earlier. The definition seems pretty sketchy at best. Osama bin Laden, no brainer. I would probably lean toward a more liberal usage of the word. Here is the FBI's own definition:

Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code

18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines "international terrorism" for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism”:

"International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.


The other issue is the choice to fly over Ukrainian airspace. While I don't blame the pilots or the airline, they were going through an area that was dangerous. Supposedly they were up high enough that they would have been safe, but as one of the guest said 32,000 feet was the minimum requirement, the pilot actually asked for 35,000 and was told no. Now why they were told no and whether it would have made a difference are questions that needs to be asked.

ColesCountyDem

(6,943 posts)
19. 35000 feet would have made no difference.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:33 AM
Jul 2014

The BUK system's missiles can reach altitudes of 72000 feet.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
20. Crap
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 06:39 AM
Jul 2014

Yeah it would have been toast either way.

ColesCountyDem

(6,943 posts)
21. Yup.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 07:36 AM
Jul 2014

MH 17 was also using an alternate flight corridor to avoid a large thunderstorm. How ironic that a decision by the pilot to ensure the safety of his passengers and crew led to their mass murder.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
16. Terrorists don't distinguish between civilian and military.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 04:37 AM
Jul 2014

Their failure to make the distinction makes them terrorists.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
8. I think the possibility that the idiots were drunk and decided to just shoot the damn thing off
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:13 AM
Jul 2014

should be considered. They are still murders all the same.

daleo

(21,317 posts)
13. Then how do you explain the U.S.S. Vincennes shootdown of the Iranian plane in the 80s
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:40 AM
Jul 2014

Everyone was sober, well trained and had the best equipment in the world. Why assume this shootdown was due to drunken behaviour, when there are several precedents of highly trained, sober, professional armed forces who shot down civilian airliners. It looks to me like mistakes can happen in combat zones, even when top notch troops are involved.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
3. Mistake or not, I hope those who are responsible rot in prison
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:57 AM
Jul 2014

The same goes for those who picked the victims clean of their valuables.

Cha

(297,184 posts)
4. Precisely, david.. I don't know who would be in charge of that happening though since Russia
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:04 AM
Jul 2014

is in major Chris Christie mode.. deny deny deny.. they know Nothing except when they let it slip.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
9. Maybe they should start hiring Chris Christie's PR firm
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:14 AM
Jul 2014

Oh wait, they have RT news.

Cha

(297,184 posts)
10. Yeah, RT.. what we say goes. End of story.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:18 AM
Jul 2014

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
12. We snowjob you, you listen
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:26 AM
Jul 2014

Maynar

(769 posts)
6. So are we to assume
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:09 AM
Jul 2014

that "Ill-trained crew" got "lucky?"

If thet were that badly trained it's more likely they would have missed altogether. You don't just point in the general direction and yell, "PULL!"

No, this excuse is bullshit and just the first of more to come. Fucking Russians downed that bird, and they knew exactly what they were doing.

lapfog_1

(29,199 posts)
11. SAM targeting is almost foolproof... heat seeking and proximity fuses
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:25 AM
Jul 2014

the crew simply needs to launch the thing and point in the general direction of a plane, especially one that puts out a nice heat signature and isn't doing any counter measures.

However, identify friend or foe is a much harder thing for these sorts of systems, when run by likely untrained non-military types (even with a few "advisers" along).

daleo

(21,317 posts)
15. Even highly trained U.S. Naval crews have shot down civilian airliners
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:48 AM
Jul 2014

So, clearly, identifying friend and for is difficult. I am glad that you are reminding us of that.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
17. The flight profiles of an An-26 and Boeing 777 are hugely different.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 04:40 AM
Jul 2014

Anything above 7,500 m should not have even been considered a target.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
14. I think it almost certainly was unintended.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:43 AM
Jul 2014

The only plausible benefactor would be Ukraine, but their capacity to perform such subterfuge is dubious. Lethal mistakes are still subject to review by international law, and the perpetrators should be held accountable.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
18. It's questionable as to its benefits to Ukraine.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 04:55 AM
Jul 2014

Ukraine is of course using the fog of war to inflict as much damage as possible on the rebels (with great success) but the civilian casualties (from both sides fighting) are enormous. This could brew lasting resentment in Ukraine. Especially because they are exploiting the situation to ban the Communist Party in Ukraine. Basically whatever they can get away with without anyone noticing.

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
22. Locking...
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 07:59 AM
Jul 2014
Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»MH17 Shootdown May Have B...