Cops: Gun Range Claimed Uzi Release Forms 'Were Blown Away By The Wind'

[DonViejo]

Source: TPM

By AHIZA GARCIA Published SEPTEMBER 3, 2014, 11:23 AM EDT

Staff at an Arizona gun range reportedly told investigators that the release forms signed by the family of a 9-year-old girl who accidentally killed her instructor with an Uzi last week were unavailable because they had been "blown away by the wind."

An investigative report released by the Mohave County Sheriff's Office to TPM and other news outlets on Tuesday included descriptions by a sergeant and deputy who helped investigate the fatal Aug. 25 shooting at the Bullets and Burgers shooting range in White Hills, Arizona.

The victim, Charles Vacca, was wounded in the head when the 9-year-old girl he was instructing lost control of the Uzi when the gun recoiled. The investigators spoke with the girl's family and the staff of the shooting range and attempted to get the release forms that had apparently been signed by the family, according to the report. Sgt. J. Thien described his attempt to get the releases in the report:



-snip-

Read more: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/fatality-shooting-range-police-report

[DetlefK]

1. Actually, the dog ate them.

[vlyons]

31. my first thought exactly!

Has that shooting range lost its firearms license and business license yet? It should.

[Enthusiast]

88. My first thoughts. "The dog ate my homework."

[factsarenotfair]

2. If they can't handle a few pieces of paper carefully, how could they

handle guns carefully?

[mahannah]

4. Guns are Religious Objects. Papers are just trees.

[amuse bouche]

24. That is hilarious

because it is true

[magical thyme]

40. well ever since the Constitution was declared a quaint piece of paper

or something like that...

[savalez]

23. They can't.

[Enrique]

3. poor Deputy Cassidy

he's obviously the guy that gets tasked with missions like chasing down papers that blew away.

[valerief]

5. "We keep all our important papers right here in a pile by this outdoor fan." nt

[CreekDog]

21. +1

[Roy Rolling]

6. yeah right

Forensic investigators can find a single human hair in a car's interior but papers blown in the wind are lost forever.

[Dont call me Shirley]

62. It's the desert, unless it rains, they can be found.

[KurtNYC]

7. How many roads must Deputy Cassidy walk down

before he finds release forms?
Yes and how many dogs ate my homework last night
before the check's in the mail?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

[Journeyman]

11. Ha, ha. My thought exactly when I saw the headline. . .

thanks for putting it so well . . .

[Joe Shlabotnik]

30. Duzy

[sulphurdunn]

65. +1

[EEO]

8. The Kaiser stole them.

[Scootaloo]

27. Who?

[EEO]

49. Grandpa Simpson, years ago when the Simpsons was actually good...

Last edited Wed Sep 3, 2014, 04:23 PM - Edit history (1)

"My story begins in nineteen-dickety-two. We had to say dickety because the Kaiser had stolen our word twenty. I chased that rascal to get it back, but gave up after dickety-six miles."

"The Curse of the Flying Hellfish"

[underpants]

58. I thought the Kaiser kicked it

[rurallib]

9. what's not to believe?

you remember - the wind that blew the sharks into Phoenix.

[TexasProgresive]

10. I don't think that's what Bob Dylan meant.

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
Yes, 'n' how many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

How many years can a mountain exist
Before it's washed to the sea?
Yes, 'n' how many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head
Pretending he just doesn't see?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

[TheCowsCameHome]

12. A good lawyer will shoot that excuse full of holes.

[RebelOne]

22. That's a given.

As the poster below said they better shut their doors now.

[leftynyc]

13. This range should just shut its doors now

Because the lawsuit(s) are surely going to bankrupt them.

[former9thward]

75. Lawsuits of whom against whom?

The parents made the request and the instructor made the mistake.

[leftynyc]

86. They best find that form

with the parent's signature on it but I'm not sure that'll be enough. I think it was negligence to even allow a child to hold an Uzi - it never should have even been offered. The range is supposed to have the experts on this kind of question and it looks like not only did they allow clearly negligent behavior, they now can't even find the form that the parent's signed. The state and the feds could also charge negligent homicide.

[former9thward]

89. The parents have expressed sympathy for both the instructor and the gun range.

They are not denying they gave permission. To prove negligence you have to prove there is a recognized standard of care. I would say that is very tough to do with a gun range.

[riderinthestorm]

90. Those waivers are virtually useless. In the end, producing that paper won't matter

(That's if they even can "find" it *cough).

The insurance carrier who has the gun range's policy will settle with the dead instructor's family. They'll offer to pay for the girl's counseling too plus any "damages" the family names.

Then they'll drop the range as a client and nobody else will insure them. Even if they somehow find somebody stupid enough to underwrite their policy it will be prohibitively expensive and their work men's comp insurance has now gone through the roof costwise.

I've seen this story a couple of times in my own area - high intensity horse sports. It's just how it shakes out....

[leftynyc]

91. I guess expecting something

other than a stupid response from these moron parents was too much.

[Sparhawk60]

95. The 9 Year old???

" The state and the feds could also charge negligent homicide."

Against who? The 9 year old girl who shot and killed him? If the girl would have killed any one other person, I think you would have a good case against the instructor. But with him as the victim, I just can't see it.

[leftynyc]

99. Against the owner of the range

I can't believe that rank negligence (and stupidity) has no penalty.

[Sparhawk60]

107. Capital Offense

In this case, the rank negligence (and stupidity) was a capital offense, the sentence was carried out immediately with no chance of appeal.

[reflection]

14. .

[oldandhappy]

15. Oh yeah

I have a bridge for sale.

[sarge43]

16. Damn it. That one blew up my crap detector, couldn't handed the overload. n/t

[riderinthestorm]

17. As the owner of a high risk sport horse training farm, everyone signs a waiver

I also have multiple signs prominently placed everywhere stipulating that everyone rides at their own risk.

That being so however, my lawyer tells me that if someone gets seriously injured on my farm, I'm still getting sued for big bucks. The waivers really don't mean shit when push comes to shove.

Even with the injuries that have occurred here, not a single insurance company has ever asked me for a copy of our waiver...

[tabasco]

51. Let's just say it's MUCH better to have a signed waiver

Generally, they will protect you from everything except for your own gross negligence.

[riderinthestorm]

84. Nope. No way. Liability insurance doesn't operate that way

The insurance company is going to pay that claim.

They won't ever issue another policy to Guns and Burgers or whatever they're called but they're on the hook for this case.

Frankly liability waivers are a bit of a joke says my attorney. If someone gets seriously injured you're going to get sued. Full stop.

The problem occurs after: nobody will insure you after the catastrophic event.

[bklyncowgirl]

87. I used to work for a riding stable that went out of business after one of those lawsuits.

You are right. Those forms are hardly worth the paper they are printed on. And a good lawyer can prove your negligence even if you followed industry standards. This shooting range is in a whole lot of trouble.

[riderinthestorm]

92. Yup. I've seen it happen to two acquaintances

They also did everything right. One of them was a barn fire where the hay caught fire in a separate outbuilding! But the wind carried the sparks and 30+ horses died and a groom was seriously wounded.

In their cases it was the workmen's comp policy costs and the fact that they couldn't get any decent coverage from any other carrier for liability that put them out of business.

Waivers are a feeble first defense and lawyers know it. Insurance carriers like mine don't even require us to have one though we do. Our attorney was blunt about the realistic nature of how much they could protect us if disaster struck. Zip.

This gun range clearly was at fault with their policies. The insurance carrier isn't even going to fight whatever settlement the family of the dead instructor wants. They'll quietly pay. Same with any $ the 9 year old girl' s family wants for pain and suffering.

And that range will (justifiably) never open again. Ever.

[tabasco]

100. I wasn't talking about insurance

I was talking about a suit for negligence and that's exactly how it works.

"Getting sued" and being found liable are not the same.

[riderinthestorm]

104. The attorneys will point to the NRA saying Uzis are fine for 8 yr olds.

See? No negligence.

"Industry standards" can be skewed by lawyers in so many demented ways. I know personally of a barn that got sued because their homemade mounting block was 2inches shy in height of a commercially bought mounting block. The woman's horse walked off as she tried to mount and she broke her ankle since it was in the iron already.

The mounting block wasn't a factor. The horse simply wouldn't stand quietly to be mounted.

That didn't stop her insurance company trying to find anyway to.pin fault on the "deep.pockets" barn owners (and their insurance company).

Fact is insurance companies ARE the players in these issues. Trying to separate them from the lawsuits is impossible.

[bklyncowgirl]

108. We are a litigious society--if people see money dancing before their eyes they'll sue.

I was once involved in a lawsuit back in my college days. I was leading trail rides to make money. One day I took a group of teenagers out for a one hour ride. One of the girls in the group wanted to gallop. I'd told told her absolutely not--I'd already tested this group at a slow jog and she'd been bouncing all over the saddle and had dropped the reins to grab the pommel. I kept the entire group at a walk. When we entered an open area she pulled a stick from a tree and started whacking on the poor horse like she was going down the stretch at Churchill Downs. The horse cantered a few strides, then, when he realized he was leaving the herd, broke into a trot. The girl bounced a few times then hit the ground. She was laughing, said there was nothing wrong with her. I put her back up, pulled out my lead line and ponied her for the rest of the ride. I suppose she did not like being a laughing stock--a few weeks later the barn was sued--back injuries and emotional pain and suffering.

When my testimony was backed up by other witnesses, the judge threw them out of court, but still the owners of the barn had to lawyer up, I had to go to court and was worried that I might have to get my own lawyer if my employer threw me under the bus. A different judge--different lawyers and it could have all gone very differently.

[KamaAina]

18. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

[msanthrope]

25. Nice. nt

[dickthegrouch]

19. At least they've admitted they collected release forms

I'm sure one insurance company or another is going to find a way to use that to deny coverage.

[George II]

20. Didn't Bob Dylan write a song about this?

[aikoaiko]

26. What is the implication? Is there doubt that the parents gave their permission?

Or that they didn't sign the form?

[C Moon]

28. I'll have to use that one next time I get a jury duty notice.

That's an obvious "fuck you, we're above the law" answer.

[Sienna86]

29. How does this place keep liability insurance?

I really don't know who would insure this place now.

[Kelvin Mace]

33. I would guess there is going to be a law suit

and then I would guess that most if not all gun ranges are going to see their insurance cancelled, or their premiums go through the roof.

[Lurks Often]

35. Why would the actions of this specific range affect other ranges?

Pretty certain other gun ranges, public or private, are not going to see their rates go up or their coverage canceled.

As for this gun range, the current insurance company will pay out as required if a civil suit is lost and then probably cancel the policy.

[Kelvin Mace]

39. If the dead man's family sues,

then the gun range could be out a lot of money. Insurance companies LOVE reason to raise rates, and if the danger is big enough, they love reasons to cancel policies that could cost them money.

This case is seriously high profile, with national attention. A PERFECT reason for insurance companies to raise rates and use the story as an excuse. Also, I am guessing that other gun range "accidents" are going to wind up in court.

Just my observations. YMMV.

[Lurks Often]

41. More often then not they do go to court

it just doesn't make national news like this tragedy did.

As for the rest of it, there is no one large insurance company covering gun ranges in the US, so I don't see rates going up or cancellations going out to the rest of the private and public gun ranges in the company.

[Kelvin Mace]

42. Insurance companies are very incestuous

and own pieces of each other. Then there is the entire "re-insurance" biz to "spread the risk around". It doesn't matter if multiple companies are covering ranges, they will all be able to point to this story and raise their rates. What choices do the policy buyers have? This incident is an excuse for them to goose their profit margins, so all they are doing is "maximizing shareholder value".

If this incident generates a major crop of suits, then the same companies can simply cancel policies of ranges by refusing to renew them when they expire. This is the standard modus operandi of insurance companies for decades.

[Niceguy1]

66. this is hardly the first accident

Can you point to cases where the insurance was raised or cancelled elsewhere?

[Kelvin Mace]

94. Again, the issue is the high profile of the incident

One drunk redneck shooting another redneck at the local gun range, not a big story. Nine year old killing an "instructor" with a weapon she had no business handling, all caught on video?

Big story. Lots of press coverage. Lots of lawyers coming out of the woodwork.

[avebury]

71. The police have already said that the negligence rested

with the now dead instructor. I don't see how his family could sue anybody.

[Kelvin Mace]

93. Oh, gosh

let's see, this is America and people can sue for the damndest reasons (of course prevailing is a different matter).

1) The family of the dead man can sue because the range didn't prohibit 9 year olds from shooting guns. Yes, he could have reused, but their argument will be he couldn't as he would have been fired.

2) The family of the little girl can sue for the mental trauma caused by the incident.

3) Other people can sue for mental trauma because of the danger the range owners placed them by handing a lethal weapon to a small child.

Now, none of these are likely to prevail, but the insurance companies don't care. Simply being sued means raising rates.

[avebury]

98. Based upon copies of items posted on the dead

guy's facebook page, he was a rabid pro-gun nut. I doubt that he had any problem with putting a gun in the hands of a child.

[NickB79]

63. Injuries and death at gun ranges are not uncommon

Every year people are killed somewhere in the US at gun ranges, either by accident, by suicide, or by homicide.

Remember the death of Chris Kyle, the "American Sniper" author a couple of years ago? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Kyle#Death

Googling "suicide at a gun range" came up with some eye-opening results as well: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/range-598714-suicides-ranges.html

The two recent suicides highlight a sobering pattern that's well-known in the gun industry but mostly out of the public eye. Between 2000 and 2012, authorities in Los Angeles, Orange and San Diego counties logged at least 64 suicides at more than 20 shooting ranges.

Any one of these incidents opened up those shooting ranges to lawsuits, and there have been thousands of them in the past decade. This one incident, as horrific as it is, won't have much impact on other gun ranges around the country.

[Sparhawk60]

97. Suicide at Ranges

I was surprised to learn one of the local ranges here does not allow a single person to rent a gun and a lane because of suicides. So I guess it happens more than you would think.

[Blue_Tires]

52. I'm thinking the insurance cost for all gun ranges will soon triple...

[AngryAmish]

68. How would his family win this lawsuit?

He gave a nine year old girl an uzi.

Or does she sue the range? Her parents would get 3d partied in.

This entire thing is a bucket of dicks.

[Veilex]

32. Forms 'Were Blown Away By The Wind'

Well then, that is as good as having never signed a release form isn't it? If you cannot produce a release form complete with signature, then you don't have a leg to stand on.

[sakabatou]

34. *headdesk*

[VA_Jill]

36. Yeah, right

Blew 'em right into the incinerator.

[appleannie1]

37. If they can't control a piece of paper, how did they expect a 9 year old to control an uzi?

[underpants]

57. Paperwork?!? Paperwork is for them Washington DC bureeecrats

Out here *BLAM BLAM* we just shoot that paperwork *BLAM BLAM* and ride our GIIIANT monster truck

[freshwest]

96. Good one.

[marions ghost]

38. never existed

probably

[Spitfire of ATJ]

43. This guy has a theory of what REALLY happened to it....

[The Last Dem.]

44. What!

What no "copy"?

[benld74]

45. Queue Dylan!!

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind
the answer is blowing,,,, YEAH RIGHT!!!!

[Orrex]

46. Frankly, my dear Lieutenant, I don't give a damn.

[burrowowl]

47. I had a friend who

was in the Israeli Army (it is mandatory), she was 5'-2" and weighed about a 110 lbs. She finally didn't have to train with the Uzi because each time she fired it it knocked her on her butt. She hated it.

[3catwoman3]

48. "Blown way"...

...seems a particularly ironic choice of words, given what happened to the instructor.

[Lenomsky]

50. LOL wut ...?

I'm still amazed that a kid was allowed access to an assault weapon - it's surreal.

I think it's a wee bit crazy that Gun Ranges offer noobs like me a gun and ammunition by signing a simple waiver. I did take an elementary 1 hour induction with a tutor but it wasn't a requirement to be on the range.

I'm from the UK so firing a few dozen bullets (.22 and .45) at a target was fun but I'm nervous about visiting again without proper supervision and the only day they have the induction with a tutor is a Sat morning. I've handled handguns literally for 2 hours in my life.

In FLA I had to join the club and have a person (a friend) supervise me but here in OH it's not the case curiously!?

[beevul]

53. It wasn't a so called "assault weapon".

It wasn't a so called "assault weapon".

It was a fully automatic firearm, which means when the trigger is pulled, it fires, and continues to fire, until the trigger is released.

A machine gun, in other words.

A so called "assault weapon" fires a single round when the trigger is pulled, and will not fire another until the trigger is released, and pulled again.

A semi-automatic weapon, in other words.

Its easy to get them confused, particularly with all the misinformation out there.

[jmowreader]

55. Strangely enough...

the NRA loves to claim the AR-15s, AK-47s and other semiauto-only military-style weapons sold in gun stores to the general public are not assault weapons because they don't have the selective-fire capability that true military assault rifles do.

An Uzi isn't a true machine gun; a true machine gun like an M-60 or a MG-42 fires only in automatic mode.

[beevul]

64. No, thats not accurate.

"the NRA loves to claim the AR-15s, AK-47s and other semiauto-only military-style weapons sold in gun stores to the general public are not assault weapons because they don't have the selective-fire capability that true military assault rifles do."

They claim they are not assault rifles because they don't have the selective-fire capability that true military assault rifles do.


"Assault weapons" is just a term that people who didn't like certain firearms coined.

[Sunlei]

54. doesn't matter, no waver in the world will forgive the negligence by the employee.

This 'old grand canyon area tourist attraction', range & burgers, may not even use a waver with that "it blew away" excuse.

They possibly are libel (at least) for any damages to the girl and family, and to the family of their employee.

[olegramps]

56. Looks like they blew it.

[Aristus]

59. A lot of things are getting blown away at that range.

Thank God I was spared the pathology of gun-mania...

[RoccoR5955]

60. So how many deputies are they assigning

to go look for it downwind?

[Dont call me Shirley]

61. I hope Vacca's wife sues both the range and the parents who allowed their daughter to shoot an Uzi

Sounds like contempt charges are in order for the shooting range for refusing to turn over the permission forms.

Gun nuts, be gun nuts.

[Niceguy1]

67. the parents shouldnt be sued

They were at business and the employee is the subject matter expert who created the unsafe situation. The parents should sue the business for damages and future care of the child as a result of the employee's negligence.

[avebury]

72. Are you serious?

The parents were irresponsible and negligent to begin with to even take her there and then agree to allow her to shoot the uzi in the first place. I am sick and tired of parents trying to blame everyone else but themselves when they make stupid decisions.

If I were on the jury of a civil case brought by the parents I would have a difficult time not laughing them out of the courtroom.

Parents need to "man up" and take responsibility for what happens due to their poor decision making skills. In my eyes, they are just as guilty as the instructor because, absent of their decision to bring the girl there and agree to her handling the uzi, this incident would never have happened.

[Niceguy1]

78. the parents arent

Responsible for the employee's death. It was a business and the business is responsible for ensuring the safety of their customers and staff. Shuould the parents sue? Thats up to them. If the instructors wife decides to sue it should be the employer not the childs family , who gets sued.

[avebury]

80. I don't see how the parents would have any

ground to sue the shooting range. Had they exhibited better judgement, they never would have put their daughter in the position of handling a weapon that she could not handle safely. The girl has said that she felt like she could not handle it. You wonder if she felt any parental pressure to continue trying to shoot the gun when she was not comfortable with it instead of speaking up and voicing her discomfort.

[Niceguy1]

81. that and why did the instructor give it to her,

And not be in a position to excert control ie behind her to the side? The parents were foolish but the instructor should have known better. And the range should have had safety policies covering this.

[frylock]

83. fuck the parents..

They, and they alone are culpable for any psychological issues the child may experience. fuck. them.

[avebury]

73. The wife can hardly bring about a lawsuit when her husband was negligent

in carrying out his duties. As a firearms instructor, he had no business letting a little girl let loose with an uzi set on automatic.

[Aerows]

69. Good heavens.

[Vine Gatherer]

70. If they ever lose their day jobs,

they have a bright future in slapstick comedy.

[armed_and_liberal]

74. Gone with the wind!

(Scarlet) Rhett ! "The signed releases blew away! Where should I go? What should I do?
(Rhett) "Frankly my dear I don't give a damn!"

[8 track mind]

76. this place is about an hours drive

South of Las Vegas. Id never step foot in the place, it's quite creepy to see.

[drray23]

77. kinda like

The dog ate my homework. It did not fly then , their lame excuse is not gonna fly now.

[elias49]

79. It wouldn't surprise me if that shoot shop closed before long.

Just too much scrutiny. The press, in one form or another, is going to drive them crazy.
Good.

[drray23]

82. it already has.

They close just a few days after the incident and after the owner was interviewed on msnbc. During the interview he vowed they would not close and thought they had done nothing wrong...

[thesquanderer]

85. I'm blown away by that excuse.

Which is far better than being blown away by a gun.

[99th_Monkey]

101. Maybe this is why I automatically associate lairs with gun nuts. ~nt

[DonCoquixote]

102. Must...not make Dylan Joke

How many kids must a madman gun down
before you stop arming that man?

How many tears must the white doves cry
before peace comes to the land?

How many rounds will assault rifles fire
before they are finally banned?

The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind,
the answer is blowing in the wind.

(with all due apologies to Mr. Dylan)

[Fred Drum]

103. sad this is allowed to happen

though, it does allow the contest to recover the wind blow documents

double bonus if you attended the burning man,

straight south thru the Arizona desert, look what i found

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

105. Gun nuts don't believe in all that paperwork n/m

[Psephos]

106. The IRS should hire him. n/t

[proverbialwisdom]

109. More.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/father-9-year-old-fatally-shot-gun-instructor-uzi-rich-wealth-advisor-new-jersey-article-1.1929642

[Omaha Steve]

110. I thought it was the employee blown away by a 9 year old girl?

They don't have any blank copies just sitting around to see what it says?

OS