Civilian killed in Ukraine shelling despite truce

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-EXCITE

DONETSK, Ukraine (AP) — One civilian was killed in shelling in the Ukrainian port city of Mariupol and large explosions were heard near the airport in Donetsk early Sunday, raising fears that a cease-fire signed two days ago is on the verge of collapse.

Blasts from the area near the airport were powerful enough to be heard in downtown Donetsk, the main rebel-held city in eastern Ukraine.

A spokesman for Ukraine's national security council, Volodymyr Polyovyi, said at a briefing in Kiev that rebels appeared to have tried to attack the airport, which has been under the control of government troops since May and has come under unremitting attacks from pro-Russia separatist rebels since then.

The cease-fire had appeared to be holding for much of the day on Saturday, but shelling started late at night. A rebel statement said Ukrainian forces violated the cease-fire by firing on their positions in six locations on Saturday, including near the Donetsk airport. The statement said several rebels were killed.

FULL story at link.



A Pro-Russian rebel stands next to his car with a heavy machine gun in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, Sunday, Sept. 7, 2014. Strong explosions were heard early Sunday on the outskirts of the main rebel-held city in eastern Ukraine near the airport, raising new fears that a cease-fire signed two days ago is on the verge of collapse. Blasts powerful enough to be heard in downtown Donetsk came from the area near the airport, which has been under the control of government troops since May and has come under unremitting attacks from pro-Russia separatist rebels since then. (AP Photo/Sergei Grits)


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20140907/eu--ukraine-4dc7e19824.html

[7962]

1. Looks like the rebels are just like Hamas. Cant keep to a truce

[Duckhunter935]

2. They seem to be attacking Ukrainian positions at night now

Nice to have those Russian night vision devices delivered. Funny only Ukrainian positions damaged and Ukrainian held area shelled. The Russians just keep pushing, hoping for a reaction.

[newthinking]

30. Considering the Ukraine military batalians there are Neo-Nazi's it is hard to be certain who may be

inflaming what.

Certainly it will be difficult to keep factions of rebels from finishing off the fascist brigades in Ukraine's militia after all that has happened.

Also, just as there is an internal fight in Ukraine over the peace plan, there is infighting in Donbass as well. It will take time and work to really achieve peace. It won't happen overnight.

[Duckhunter935]

34. Seems to be at least one side not abiding by agreements

On Aug. 29, Vladimir Putin called on rebels to open a humanitarian corridor for trapped Ukrainian fighters to leave Ilovaisk alive. Dnipro Battalion commander Yury Bereza, who suffered shrapnel wounds in Ilovaisk and spent three days walking through the fields to escape, said he negotiated with Russian commanders to let them out in exchange for releasing Russian prisoners. But the corridor would turn out to be another trap.

Lyudmila Kalinina, one of the Donbass Battalion's five women volunteers, was one of the fighters to who made it out. Speaking from her hospital bed, where she was being treated for shrapnel wounds, she said she was driving a truck full of soldiers out of Ilovaisk when her convoy suddenly came under artillery fire. The volunteers ran for cover but orders came in over the radio demanding they return to their vehicles. After a lull, the convoy began moving again, only to come under even heavier shelling.

Kalinina said she saw a fiery streak fly into the vehicle in front of her before it exploded.

Kalinina said she saw a fiery streak fly into the vehicle in front of her before it exploded. The fighters ditched vehicles in the corn field and ran into a village. As machine-gun and sniper fire tore into them, they took shelter in local houses and started to shoot back.

The volunteers were out collecting their dead and injured when shrapnel struck Kalinina in her forehead. "I heard a tank shot, and I don't remember anything after that" until waking up that night in the basement of one of the homes, she said.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/09/06/anatomy_of_a_bloodbath_ukraine_volunteer_battalions_ilovaisk_donetsk

[another_liberal]

3. I've seen reports the pro-Kiev fighters trapped at the Donetsk airport are mercenaries.

They refuse to evacuate the facility (as called for in the ceasefire agreement) and are described as being of "undetermined nationality."

They could well be some of Mr. Prince's Academi (formerly "Blackwater&quot hired killers. A large number of such mercenaries are fighting in east Ukraine, in the pay of wealthy western Ukrainian "Oligarchs."

[Igel]

4. I saw a report that described Bigfoot.

And recently a report that said Putin is possessed by Satan.

Have brain, will use.

[another_liberal]

7. No one seemed to believe reports of a Separatist offensive either . . .

At least until it got so big and scored so many successes Western media couldn't deny the facts any longer. Russia Today News was reporting on that story for nearly a week before any main stream American service even mentioned it.

[Duckhunter935]

11. quite easy for a turn around

when supplied with new weapons and troops from Russia. A few weeks ago the separatists were trying to get old museum pieces operational.

[another_liberal]

24. Some people say that . . .

I haven't seen anything yet:

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/08/how-can-you-tell-whether-russia-has.html

[Igel]

27. I've been assigned the status of "nobody"?

It was quite clear when it was happening. The NRBO maps indicated it quite clearly. If you read the Russian media the only thing you got was "opolchentsy counterattack" and "victory." If you read the Ukrainian news, you get "terrorist counterattack, assisted by Russian resupply, intelligence, artillery strikes within 20 miles of the border, and probably planning."

The current counteattack was largely denied because it started miles away from the nearest rebel armored vehicles and artillery. The first land taken was around Uspenka. Then it moved west and south a ways. The next bit of land was east of Novoazovsk, but no armor moved from just south of Ilovaisk down to Novoazovsk. Some fighters did, in land rovers and hondas. That was reported. As was the heavy artillery shelling in the area--it started intermittently weeks ago, and ramped up. Then suddenly the border post was taken and dozens of armored vehicles appeared as the "rebels opened another front." As with Uspenka, either tanks and APCs engaged in some pretty serious one-directional quantum tunnelling or they crossed the border. Many would prefer to believe in rather large macroscopic quantum effects.


There have been, however, numerous "counterattacks." Almost every other day for a while. Even as the rebels were retreating. Those, also, were documented in the DPR and LPR websites and Novorossiya press agency, but vanished into the Lethe. The follow-ups that were failures never made it into the Russian press. (By "Russian press" I mean the DPR/LPR and Russian-Federation press, not necessarily the Russian-language press. A lot of Ukrainian press, including the largest channels, is only in Russian or have mostly parallel Russian/Ukrainian sites and reported them--one reason that the Ukrainian press was an early target of the infowarriors in the DPR and LPR. That funny split is, of course, a serious problem for those who insist the Ukrainian government wants to ban all Russian-language everything. At least those who are aware of the facts. What's the saying? Ignorance is bliss?)

The latter weren't so much denied as openly mocked. It took a lot of reinforcements and supplies to equip that army. Putin the Timid didn't commit for a long time, unless it was clear he was up against a moderately committed foe in Ukraine (which goes passive/aggressive) and bunnies in the West.

We saw that before. And it ended very badly before. On the other hand, the Leader had his supporters in the US, just as the new Leader does these days. Slava vozhdi! Slava batyushke!

[newthinking]

31. The Svoboda censored Ukrainian news as your source?

That's a laugh.

[Duckhunter935]

5. do you have a link to the

ceasefire agreement?

I have not been able to find it

[another_liberal]

8. Sure thing . . .

Try this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025499672

[Duckhunter935]

9. well thats not it, but an RT story

I found it and wonder if since they signed it the pro-Russian separatist side will abide by point 10. It is nice they will have to follow Ukrainian law for the early elections, don't you think?

http://www.osce.org/ru/home/123258?download=true

[another_liberal]

13. As long as Kiev removes its troops and militias from Separatist territory . . .

I think that covers the problem of hostile forces being on the territory of another signatory to the agreement. Has anyone ever suggested Separatist units are active outside the Donetsk and Lugansk republics' borders?

[Duckhunter935]

16. except that is not what the agreement says

point 10 says out of Ukraine not out of some made up area.

[another_liberal]

20. Do you not realize what gaining "Special Status" implies in this context?

They are not merely "some made up area."

They have kicked the Ukrainian army's teeth in, and they have won the right to govern themselves.

[Duckhunter935]

22. yes I do

and that is not it.

It means they are part of Ukraine, have special language rights., More autonomy but remain a part of Ukraine.

MOSCOW, September 7 (RIA Novosti) - The Ukrainian law on the special status should establish the status of the Russian language and Kiev’s obligations not to interfere with economic relations between Russia and the republics, LPR head Igor Plotnitsky told RIA Novosti on Sunday.

"It has to establish the status of the Russian language and Ukraine's obligations that it will not interfere with the free economic relations of our republics with Russia,” Plotnitsky said.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140907/192708837/-LPR-Head-Ukraines-Law-on-Special-Status-Should-not-Hamper.html

“The law on the special status does not mean abandoning the idea of independence for the LPR and DPR. But we understand that in order to restore peace and security, economic and social ties, we have to make compromises, and, when necessary – to bring ourselves closer to the Ukrainian society. The law on the special status will confirm Kiev’s course for a peaceful settlement of the conflict. We do not reject this dialogue, but it must be equitable and inclusive,” Plotnitsky said.

Protocol on the results of consultations of the Trilateral Contact Group signed in Minsk on Friday and published on the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) website entails Ukraine adopt the law on special status for the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in addition to holding early elections.

http://newseurope.me/2014/09/07/luhansk-head-consent-adoption-law-special-status-rule-independence/

So the breakaway republics for now agreed to be part of Ukraine.

[newthinking]

36. Despite the rhetoric all along special status would have been accepted from the beginning

and this bears that out. This could have been solved months ago.

I wonder what other points in the narrative were not accurate?

[newthinking]

33. Notice it says "Ukrainian Territory". That means Donbass *and* the rest of Ukraine

[Duckhunter935]

37. So the illegal

militias and the regular and irregular Russian soldiers need to disarm and get their weapons out of Ukraine. And as the leaders of the rebellion state they are not a separate state as per the agreement, It means the current borders of Ukraine. The only legal armed people should be the government of Ukraine sanctioned entities.

[newthinking]

39. You are way off (and not being rational) here trying to forcast how this will play out

according to your pre-conceived bias.

It is going to evolve. Item 10 was put *after* the elections for a reason. What will be the options in that election are yet to be determined.

This is just a general mapping out. There will have to be assurances of some kind or other that Kiev cannot simply come back in and start shelling it's cities. Maybe UN peacekeepers. Who knows. Certainly you don't know.

[Duckhunter935]

6. found the agreement

Last edited Sun Sep 7, 2014, 11:27 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.osce.org/ru/home/123258?download=true
:large
Where does it say "They refuse to evacuate the facility"

Seems like point 10 is not yet being followed by the separatists.

[another_liberal]

10. Oh they are most certainly "refusing to leave," and then some . . .

As mentioned in this update:

07:26 GMT:

Ukrainian forces are concentrating a large number of troops and military hardware near Gorlovka, some 47 kilometers from the city of Donetsk, reports the RIA news agency citing local militia’s headquarters. A long convoy of military vehicles is moving on the road connecting Mironovka and Debaltsevo settlements.

Self-defense militia forces intel has information that the Ukrainian troops concentrated near Donetsk possess at least 47 tanks, 15 Shilka armored self-propelled anti-aircraft vehicles, 7 Tochka-U (NATO designation – Scarab) tactical ballistic missile complexes, 6 Grad multiple rocket launch complexes and one Smerch heavy multiple rocket launcher.

There have been reports about skirmishes near Donetsk international airport, where a group of armed men of unknown national identity has been holed up for quite a time.



http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/

[Duckhunter935]

12. point 10 of the agreement

when are they going to follow that?

[another_liberal]

15. Don't be so impatient . . .

I already answered you in a reply to the first time you asked that question.

[Duckhunter935]

18. the first thing should be to stop attacking

at least one killed in Ukrainian held city of Mariupol. I guess you and RT would say the Ukrainian military is shelling a town they control.

[newthinking]

38. Notice it is *after* elections.

The actual implimentation will evolve and not look exactly like this document. Fortunately negotiators are more experienced than people on this board. They understand how these things really work unlike armchair warriors. Get prepared, because it is not going to be simple nor will it be without serious bumps along the way.

And despite your thoughts on this, a cease fire treaty is not a surrender. Of course Donbass will not remove their defensive measure completely until there is enough assurance that Kiev will not break the ceasefire and take advantage of it.

Of course the rebels always have their armored birds (ptichkas) ready and waiting (I don't think I will ever forget that, still puts a smile on my face)

[Duckhunter935]

14. and I ask again

where does the signed agreement say they have to leave?

[another_liberal]

17. In the wording, maybe?

Seriously, what else could it possibly mean?

[Duckhunter935]

19. please post the point in the agreement

[another_liberal]

21. I don't think you are serious . . .

What are you trying to suggest here? Are you saying that the peace agreement allows for the continued occupation of Separatist territory by Ukrainian forces? The Separatist representatives would never have agreed it were that true.

[Duckhunter935]

23. I just read the agreement

and what it says.

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. Yes, the peace agreement allows for the continued occupation of Separatist territory by Ukrainian

forces. That's obvious. It calls for decentralization and local self-governance, not independence. Therefore, the Ukrainian military is still allowed to be in any part of Ukraine.

"The Separatist representatives would never have agreed it were that true."

Well, less than a week ago you were claiming that "the Separatists have never asked for anything but autonomy within Ukraine". If you had really believed that, you would have accepted that Ukrainian forces could always have remained in the areas under discussion.

[another_liberal]

35. Your opinion is welcome . . .

Concerning the nature of what degree of autonomy a victorious independence movement like that in Novorussiya may be forced to accept we seem to disagree, but thank you.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. That's OK, I'm a native English speaker

and I thought you needed it explained to you. By the way, "victorious" is the wrong word to use there. After all, the agreement so far is not about 'independence' at all. You haven't seemed to understand what the word 'independence' means so far, either.

[another_liberal]

47. Poroshenko and his fascists finally agreed to a ceasefire because they were winning, right?

If that is what you want to argue, go ahead and be my guest. Of course, "a week ago" you weren't even admitting the Separatists had staged a successful counter offensive. Remember that?

I guess our hopeful dreams of conquest die a hard and slow death sometimes.

[newthinking]

41. Calm down. This will take some time and it is not a surrender. All parties will have to act

in good faith and there will need to be reassurances based on more than just the word of either the current government or the rebels.

Just use common sense.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. What in my post was either not 'calm', or lacking in 'common sense'?

Or did you mean to reply to another post? I said nothing about 'surrender', or the word of either side.

[newthinking]

45. Sorry, I think I did reply to the wrong post. Yours was a calm rational response

Been a bit and I can't remember which I had meant this to go under.

My bad mv

[Duckhunter935]

44. Separatists shelling the airport from inside the city with Grads after the cease fire

RT reporter embedded with the Separatists. That is a dangerous place to be, maybe that is why some of the reporters have been killed by return fire.

[newthinking]

46. I see something we agree on! Miracles never cease ;)

I agree that reporters best not embed with the rebels or stay back out of the ground operations. That is what the embeded reporters on the Ukraine do. Of course it is more difficult to report accurately that way, but there are other ways to check facts.

Having said that, most of the reporter deaths in the east have not been related to this kind of reporting, many while reporting on civilians and they were killed when civilians were under fire or killed.

[OilemFirchen]

25. Are you suggesting...

that the Ukrainian military is an "illegal armed group"?

Simple question, BTW, answerable with a "yes" or "no".

[Duckhunter935]

26. crickets nt

[Igel]

28. That's been the assertion from the Russian/pro-Russian side.

The entire national guard is nothing but fascists. (A nice whole/part fallacy.)

That becomes, in typical Soviet-press style, the "soldiers" are nothing but fascists. With fallacies, in for a penny, in for a pound. Okay, in for a kopeck, in for a ruble.

That yields "The army is also nothing but fascists."

So all military units are illegal, all the more so because the entire government was overthrown and replaced by armed maidantsy.

Even though the Rada ("Soviet&quot was all elected and continued from at least last year, and Poroshenko was elected in carefully monitored elections in May.

In Russia, you're persecuted and even arrested for suggesting having a discussion of federalization. In Chechnya, there were a couple of wars to suppress federalization and secession--with some of the DPR folk engaged in them, decrying the evils of federalization. But in Ukraine, for Russian-speakers, it's a human right. Russians have rights, everybody else has duties.

[OilemFirchen]

29. Hence "the pro-Kiev fighters trapped at the Donetsk airport are mercenaries."...

who "refuse to evacuate the facility (as called for in the ceasefire agreement)".

Because to admit that the Ukrainian military is guarding the airport against "separatists" is to admit that Ukraine, in this instance, is abiding by the agreement. Which is obvious, of course, but which would tip the hand of our interlocutor. Or not, as he's, as yet, failed to answer a simple binary question.

[newthinking]

48. Kiev does have a lot of mercanaries fighting. And there were 300 Polish and Georgian Mercs holding

the Luhansk Airport when it was taken by the rebels.

[OilemFirchen]

50. Bullshit.

Prove it.

[newthinking]

42. This is all premature speculating. That item is #10 and after elections

either way let's move into the **real** world. A quickly thought out 12 point plan is not what it will look like in the end. There is a lot of work to do in the meantime and it will evolve. The more important factor is that both parties stay engaged and realistic.

[OilemFirchen]

49. The line items in the agreement are not dependent on one another.

The agreement consists of its component points en toto. Simply because one item follows another doesn't suggest that they are to be followed consecutively.

I actually feel embarrassed having to explain this. Would that you were as embarrassed for suggesting it in the first place. Over and over, as it were.

[Duckhunter935]

51. since item 12

seems to not be dependent on the others of course you are right. Unless that can not be accomplished until all of the others are.

[geek tragedy]

52. Ukraine might as well cede those territories

to Russia now, revoke the citizenship of everyone there, draw a new, fully militarized boundary, and join NATO.

The Ukraine of 6 months ago no longer exists.

[Duckhunter935]

53. Very possible

But I do not think Russia will be content until they get the entire southern border area to Moldova. Gives them a land bridge to a couple of there conquered areas. Gives them all of those offshore rights and more navel bases and ports. This will be a long term slow burning fight after the permanent cease fire and borders are agreed to. They will just foment more uprisings and go in to "help".

[geek tragedy]

54. No, but they have time to harden their defenses there.

Getting real military equipment is a start.

Only thing they are getting in these negotiations is time. Russians won't honor any agreement they make anyways, so it's a matter of preparing for their next round of treachery and aggression.

[Duckhunter935]

55. Look at the map and see where these are

#Gubarev: it's not only #DNR and #LNR, we say about all #Novorossiya, Zaporozhye, Kherson and other districts

https://twitter.com/TKulakowski/status/508899180166017024

Amazing these guys all have free movement in Russia and can hold press events.