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KeepItReal

(7,769 posts)
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 01:21 AM Sep 2014

Tanks at the school gates? San Diego school police acquires its own MRAP

Source: Guardian UK

The nation gaped at the sight of a military-grade Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle trundling through Ferguson, but it turns out that was relatively restrained policing. Relative, that is, to San Diego, where police will use a similar steel behemoth for the city’s schools.

The San Diego Unified School District Police Department has acquired its own vehicle, known as a MRAP, and expect it to be operational by October.

“I can totally see people thinking ‘Oh, my God. Are they going to be rolling armoured vehicles into our schools and what the hell’s going on?’” Captain Joe Florentino told local media.

Police intended to use it to rescue children – be it from rampaging gunmen or natural disasters, he said. “When we have an emergency at a school, we’ve got to get in and save kids.”

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/san-diego-school-police-mrap-armored-carrier



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Tanks at the school gates? San Diego school police acquires its own MRAP (Original Post) KeepItReal Sep 2014 OP
OMG. What the f-ck is up in this Country? Something BAD is brewing... blkmusclmachine Sep 2014 #1
Money for this but not education. F@ck militarization grahamhgreen Sep 2014 #2
Obama billhicks76 Sep 2014 #24
That shiny new paint makes it look so much less deadly. obxhead Sep 2014 #3
The US military won't use MRAPs on military bases. Half-Century Man Sep 2014 #4
Well once the school kids started planting landmines all over what did you expect. Exultant Democracy Sep 2014 #5
+100 christx30 Sep 2014 #12
I'll say it again, we didn't give all the war junk to the cops after WWII. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2014 #6
Yup... we sold it to civilians who opened whistler162 Sep 2014 #8
There was a "swords into plowshares" glee at going to a peacetime standing.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2014 #14
Yes, we did. happyslug Sep 2014 #15
50's era cops weren't dressing up as soldiers and driving tanks.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2014 #17
I agreed, but my point was there was such a program... happyslug Sep 2014 #18
There's a movie you have to check out if you haven't seen it yet called "The Pentagon Wars". Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2014 #19
I saw it when it first came out.... happyslug Sep 2014 #20
The moral of the movie for me was promotions are linked to contracts... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2014 #25
Yes, but wait! It's to save children!!! NBachers Sep 2014 #7
MDVs! RandiFan1290 Sep 2014 #9
Way too many guns, we need more butter. Snarkoleptic Sep 2014 #10
Precisely Sherman A1 Sep 2014 #11
Unreal... blackspade Sep 2014 #13
won't somebody think of the children? frylock Sep 2014 #16
So is that the workaround to impunity on military grade vehicles for law enforcement work? Earth_First Sep 2014 #21
This screams "Find a quick big-ticket purchase..." Blue_Tires Sep 2014 #22
The "after" images are photoshopped bananas Sep 2014 #23
Haven't studied this enough to delete_bush Sep 2014 #27
Aren't these the same geniuses procon Sep 2014 #26
 

blkmusclmachine

(16,149 posts)
1. OMG. What the f-ck is up in this Country? Something BAD is brewing...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 01:26 AM
Sep 2014
I have seen the enemy. And he is us.
 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
24. Obama
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 06:05 PM
Sep 2014

He could end this with a stroke of the pen. Still fooled by him? Don't need Congress to end this. He is Bush family poodle just like GW and Bill Clinton. How he ended up there is anyone's guess but those who make excuses for him in the face of facts are just more brainwashed lemmings who can't handle the truth and prefer sunny mindscapes to reality.

 

obxhead

(8,434 posts)
3. That shiny new paint makes it look so much less deadly.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 01:32 AM
Sep 2014

And it actually does.

I could see this awesome machine being used by heroic rescuers at the OBX to save Tue idiots that didn't flee from a hurricane. I can picture it and would cheer its existence.

However this will be used to terrorize children. I dread the day heavily armed police pile out of that vehicle to "control" some situation.

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
4. The US military won't use MRAPs on military bases.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 01:47 AM
Sep 2014

Because they are too heavy for the streets and roll over because of their high center of gravity. Seems like the perfect vehicle to use during an earthquake on marginally maintained infrastructure. Or bashing through a wall to rescue children trained to crouch next to walls in the case of a school shooter (at least that was what they taught my kid to do 10 years ago).

Good plan fuckwits.

 

whistler162

(11,155 posts)
8. Yup... we sold it to civilians who opened
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 07:05 AM
Sep 2014

war surplus stores.

Probably sold many a DUKW's, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW, to fire departments with bodies of water to support. Not to mention deuce and a half's, http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/complete-vehicles-sale/779804-military-m35a2-deuce-half-3500-a.html, to any taker and of course the Wileys. Tanks and aircraft, other than cargo planes not so much.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
14. There was a "swords into plowshares" glee at going to a peacetime standing....
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 10:55 AM
Sep 2014

These days it's all war, all fear, but do your duty and go shopping.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
15. Yes, we did.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 11:46 AM
Sep 2014

One of the reasons Police retain revolvers in the post WWII era was the Federal Government had purchased so much .38 caliber ammo that the Feds gave it away till the 1970s (The US used the ,45 Automatic, but the .38 was purchased as an auxiliary weapon for Colt and Smith and Wesson had production lines up for it and the US thought it might be needed. Some .38s were issued and used but the US had a lot of ammunition made up for .38 special that the US military never shipped overseas).

Please note WWII production quality was NOT up to post WWII standard so some of the ammo was just bad, would not fire. In an automatic that was and is a problem, no fire, you have to work the action yourself. In a revolver all you have to do is pull the trigger again and fire on an new round.

Most US surplus ammo was used for practice, the Police purchased other more reliable rounds for actual use. The problem was the misfires caused by the surplus turned off most police officers on to automatics till that surplus was used up (late 60s, early 70s) then took another decade or two for the police to embrace automatics and their greater fire power.

You be surprised what else the Military gave away after WWII, but most police departments put them in their storage area and disposed of them themselves 10-20 years later.

Now, if the item had been shipped overseas, the policy was NOT to bring them back. The reason was simple, it was to expensive and this is all before container shipper (which only came into use in 1958 and widespread use in the 1960s). Thus you had US Jeeps all over Europe and Asia. The Modern Japanese Auto Industry, through it pre dates WWII, received its big break rebuilding Jeeps for US use during the Korean War. The Jeeps had been kept in storage since WWII and needed to be overhauled for use in Korea and it was cheaper to get the Japanese to do it instead of shipping back to the US.

Furthermore, after WWII, while the Military down sized, it decided to embrace getting rid of the horse. The Horse and Mule had been kept during WWII, but as the war progressed the need for both was seen to have passed. Thus those units that still had Horses had to convert to Trucks post WWII (not many units, but enough to absorb all of the Trucks the US had and for the US to actually buy new trucks post WWII, through National Guard units used WWII Trucks till the 1970s).

Remember, most WWII Soldiers WALKED into combat. Desert Storm was the first war where NO soldier MARCHED to the combat zone. Thus the US had more trucks then anyone else during WWII, but we still did NOT have enough to move our troops by truck rather then by foot. Thus after WWII, while the number of TYPES of trucks was reduced, an effort was made to keep the most produced, the 2 1/2 ton truck. i.e. Ambulances and other vehicles that was based on vehicles other then the jeep or the 2 1/2 ton truck was sold off or given away as surplus. You see a lot of former army Ambulance trucks in movies and news film of the 1950s for this reason.

As to weapons, by the end of WWII, most US weapons were done and needed to be rebuilt. i.e, new barrels and general overhaul. The US was at the end of its supply lines by May 1945 and thus had a rough time keeping the troops supplied (one of the reason for so much 38 caliber ammunition was a desire to produce as much as possible, but then a finding that we could NOT move it out of the States, thus stayed in the US and released as Surplus after the War).

As to heavier weapons,, the US gave them to our allies or kept them in storage do to fear of a Soviet Attack. Thus the US still had Sherman Tanks in the 1950s, even after the Korea War and its production of the M47 tank and the later M48 and M60 tanks (The US had replaced most of its Shermans by the late 1950s, but those Shermans ended up with various allies of the US including Israel in the 1960s).

My points, while armor and heavy equipment was NOT transferred to the Police, other equipment, other then trucks, were transferred (including ammunition). This included Ambulances and other 1/2 tons trucks (most replaced by more modern designed by the police by the late 1950s). The items produced during WWII was only design for use during that war, there were NOT designed to last more then a few years. The Army 2 1/2 ton truck, the #1 vehicle produced during WWII, was the Standard GM Truck with four wheel drive train installed. Thus hard to tell the difference, once painted, from Commercial vehicles. Army Half tracks were also conversions of civilian trucks (White Trucks for most half tracks with an after market track system that replaced the rear wheels, after WWII used by a lot of timber companies, but many were converted back to regular trucks by replacing the track with wheels).,

Side Note: Army WWII Half Tracks started out as White Trucks with increased armor (removed in most post war usages) and the rear wheels replaced by an after market track assembly designed to fit the truck using the same mounts that conventional wheels are bolted to. Thus to convert back to wheels was easy, remove the track and install a wheel with tires that is all that was needed to be done (and remove the armor the Army added, but the Armor was NOT that thick).

We tend to forget most WWII transportation equipment was barely modified Civilian equipment. The big exception was the Jeep and the Jeep used a pre WWII Willy engine and transmission as its base (The body and frame was new, but NOT the wheels or tires, both were Civilian origin). Thus parts for these war surplus vehicles were readily available in the Civilian Market, for the vehicles themselves had started out as civilian vehicles.

In Iraq, the Humvee was replaced by various bomb resistant trucks that are now being released by the Army for the Army do no longer needs them. That is what most police departments are getting, vehicles to patrol a hostile population NOT a friendly population. The Police would like to get Humvees, in many rural areas they would be idea rescue vehicles, but the Army still has a use for Humvees, for it is a general purpose truck which can handle rescue duties, transport of supplies duties etc. The Humvees was NEVER design to operate in areas with hostile civilian population. Thus today's army can use the Humvee, they can NOT use these armored trucks.

Thus the Army is doing what it did after WWII, getting rid of vehicle he no longer needs, but this time it is not ambulances and 1/2. 3/4 and 1 ton trucks it is these large bomb resistant trucks. It is not horses and mules (Mules ended up being sent to Europe as part of the Marshall plan, when it was discovered the #1 shortage of farmers in Italy, Greece and Turkey was a lack of Mules do to high losses of mules during WWII for the Germans used Mules and horses to replace trucks when oil shortages hit the German Army starting in 1941). The US also used local mules in Italy, adding to the mule shortage in Italy among Italian farmers.

At the same time, US Farmers were embracing tractors and trucks and were willing to replace their horses and mules with war surplus trucks.

Thus after WWII the vehicle the US Military was unloading were almost all of civilian origin in the first place and replaced a lot of Civilian vehicles that had NOT been produced 1941-1945.

After the war in Iraq, the equipment the Military no longer has a use for were NOT converted civilian designs but military design from the wheels up and thus have little in common with Civilian vehicles including what you can do with them. Thus after WWII, the transfer of equipment to police and other government unit was easy for the equipment was compatible to what those government units was doing. i.e driving off road in jeeps other other similar vehicles. Today, what the Military is "giving" away has little use among civilians, we do not need bomb resistant trucks to drive to and from work or to fight forest fires. The problem is NOT the ideal behind the project, but what is being given away. After WWII what was given away was usable, today it is not.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
17. 50's era cops weren't dressing up as soldiers and driving tanks....
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 12:15 PM
Sep 2014

Much less treating peaceful neighborhoods like a war zone.

Actual soldiers are saying these idiot cops are going in with more gear than they use in actual combat.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
18. I agreed, but my point was there was such a program...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 02:31 PM
Sep 2014

The difference is most of the equipment used during WWII had started out as civilian equipment and then converted for military use, so conversion back was no big deal. This included Trucks, Jeeps, and even planes along with communication equipment (mostly radios and field phones). In addition to ammo originally made for weapons designed for Police and civilians but that the Military adopted as a war necessity (People forget that even POODLES where "drafted" into the K9 corps during WWII for guard dog purposes, you had a shortage of EVERYTHING during WWII and the gap was filled by Civilian Goods).

In Iraq, the situation was different, very little civilian equipment was used and as the guerilla warfare increased, light trucks, which have the most Civilian usage potential, were replaced by armored bomb resistant Trucks (which have limited or no Civilian Usage Potential). After WWII the Army wanted to get rid of the Civilian items for items designed for actual military use, thus the transfer of equipment was mostly giving away mostly barely converted civilian material.

The problem with Iraq what the Army no longer wants is NOT the Humvees or the new 2 1/2 tons trucks the Army manage to obtain while fighting in Iraq, but the special purpose bomb resistant trucks made to operate in an area with a hostile civilian population. These have limited civilian use for the simple reason they were design to operate when the civilian population not only want the operators of those trucks dead, they are doing ACTIVE things to obtain that desire.

As to clothing, after WWII, there was a severe shortage of clothing. Enlistees prior to Vietnam NEVER wore Civilian clothes. They were expected to wear their uniforms at all times. When they were released, they were ordered NEVER to wear those clothes again, but obtain Civilian Wear. The problem was at the end of WWII they was NO civilian Clothes to obtain, so discharged soldiers had to wear they uniforms for months after they were discharged. To address this problem the "Ruptured Duck" was invented. It was a sewed on Eagle that by its designed showed you had been discharged and no longer subject to Military authority even through you were still wearing a uniform.

Now most discharged veterans obtain civilian clothes as soon as they could, but in the post WWII era that could takes weeks and sometimes months. Thus you had men wearing "Military Uniforms" during the post WWII era. On the other hand the police saw no need to adopt such clothing for themselves for it was NOT the fashion to look like you some sort of Special forces to combat crime. Thus police did not wear military uniforms, but civilians did in the post WWII era.

Side note: During WWII if you went into combat you were expected to wear a tie for that was part of your uniform (Most front line soldiers discarded it, but Patton made a big deal of any soldier under his command who did not have a tie on). The uniform may be Green instead of blue but in many ways it was similar to what police officers were wearing. Paratroopers wore uniforms with large cargo pockets on their legs, like modern Battle Dress Uniforms, but regular soldiers did not. Thus post WWII Police wore a uniform much like what WWII soldiers had worn, right down to the tie (or open collar button).

About 1980 the US Army adopted its Battle Dress Uniform (BDU) and SWAT teams and other Police started to dress up in them. You can say this is new, but if you remember what the WWII Uniform was, the Police did the same thing during that time period, except they kept the uniform blue.

As to the tie and the uniform during WWII, it even made the cartoon in Stars and Stripes. One of the running lines during WWII was soldiers "Behind the front lines enough NOT to get shot at, but close enough to get away without wearing a tie". Yes ties were part of the WWII uniform even when soldiers went into combat. Most soldiers ignored that requirement but ever so often someone tried to enforce it.

http://www.awon.org/willie/willie2.html

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
20. I saw it when it first came out....
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 04:18 PM
Sep 2014

My favorite scene is when an Army Officer pulled in the Air Force Officer who was reviewing the M2 Bradley fighting Vehicle and told him to be careful "Given a choice between us, people who threaten a weapons program, and a Soviet Spy, they go after US every time".

The M2 Bradley has been a very successful program since it was introduced in the 1980s (And the Air Force Officers efforts made it a much better vehicle then it had been before his efforts) but its still suffers from some major shortcomings, mostly do to its Aluminum Armor.

Aluminium "burns" (Technically it is called Rapid Oxidation) at a much lower temperature then Steel (but much higher then magnesium). Thus if you make a vehicle from Aluminium it will "burn" if hit by a HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank Round). You have to design around that problem for Aluminum is four times stronger then steel of the same mass (But Alumunium takes up three times the volume of Steel, thus the same MASS of Steel and Aluminium means looking at an Aluminum block three times the size of the Steel Block of the same MASS).

Aluminum "Melts" at 1220.58 Fahrenheit, which is low for metal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Oxidation_state_.2B3

Iron "Melts" at 2800 Degree Fahrenheit, over twice the temperture of Aluminum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron

Magnesium melts at ​1202 Fahrenheit, through some alloy burn as low as 660 Fahrenheit:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-temperature-metals-d_860.html

Even today there is some question as to the ability of the Bradley to take a HEAT round. The last time I checked the changes made during the fight to get it into production gave the crew more time to vacant if they have to but that is about all.

The movie did have an error in it, it states that Israel was being given an improved version of the M2 Bradley. In the real world Israel used and is still using the older, all aluminium M113 Vietnam Era Armored Personal Carrier. Israel is looking for a replacement do to the affects of HEAT rounds on the Aluminum armor of the M113, but the M2 Bradley is NOT among the options Israel is looking at.

Israeli has instead opted for a conversion of old T-54 tanks to Infantry Carriers and building new infantry vehicles based on its Merkava Tank. The T-54 uses steel armor, the Merkava uses composite and reactive armor.

For more on the T-54 conversion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Achzarit

For more on the Merkava Infantry Fighting Vehicle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namer

Just a Comment that the M2 Bradley was only sold to Saudi Arabia, unlike the M113 which was and still use used world wide. The users of the M113 know its weaknesses and try to avoid placing it anyplace where a HEAT round can be used against it (The most common way is to use Steel APCs or Tanks to lead M113s into combat, thus the Steel APC gets any HEAT rounds fired).

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
25. The moral of the movie for me was promotions are linked to contracts...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 06:10 PM
Sep 2014

This not only turns colonels into salesmen. Then there's the bull sessions over the years that turned a taxi cab into a tank.

Snarkoleptic

(5,997 posts)
10. Way too many guns, we need more butter.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 08:16 AM
Sep 2014

The MIC has made massive profits manufacturing unneeded tools of war while we argue over cuts to school breakfast/lunch programs.

I recently heard a caller on the Thom Hartmann Program say he went to a fair in a town of around 4,000. At the fair, a friend introduced him to the police chief who said his department of 6 officers had recently received around 40 free assault rifles and the total cost was around $400 for shipping.

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
11. Precisely
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 08:52 AM
Sep 2014

The Pentagon needs less stuff, helping reduce the need to surplus the stuff. Anything that would be considered surplus needs to find its way to the Reserve or the National Guard.

Earth_First

(14,910 posts)
21. So is that the workaround to impunity on military grade vehicles for law enforcement work?
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 04:22 PM
Sep 2014

Paint 'Search and Rescue' on it and slap an International Red Cross symbol on the vehicle?

It's getting creepy out there, folks...

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
22. This screams "Find a quick big-ticket purchase..."
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 04:53 PM
Sep 2014

"...so we can justify our over-funded safety budget next year"

bananas

(27,509 posts)
23. The "after" images are photoshopped
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 05:54 PM
Sep 2014

The white paint, red cross, and text have been photoshopped onto the tank.

In case anyone else is looking for them, I just found them at KPBS.org, our local public radio station.

There are three photos in two news articles:
- a tan tank with no decals or text on it
- a green tank with a red cross and "Police", "Rescue", "San Diego Unified School District"
- a white tank with a red cross and "Search and Rescue", "San Diego Unified School"

Was the tank tan or green when it first arrived?
Or are there two tanks?
What color is it now?
The tan tank is on a flatbed, apparently when it first arrived?
A school bus is visible behind the green tank.

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2014/sep/10/san-diego-unified-new-mrap-not-tank/

San Diego Unified: New MRAP Is Not A Tank
Wednesday, September 10, 2014
By Matthew Bowler, Tarryn Mento
Aired 9/11/14 on KPBS News.

While some may call San Diego Unified's recently acquired military vehicle a tank, the school district says otherwise, and quickly called a news conference to say so.

KPBS media partner inewsource reported Tuesday the district received the mine-resistant ambush protected vehicle — or MRAP, as the Marine Corps calls it — through a U.S. Department of Defense program. It's known as the 1033 program, which lets the federal government provide surplus military equipment to law enforcement. All San Diego Unified had to pay was the just-less-than $5,000 shipping cost.

<snip>


An image shows the MRAP was painted tan when it was first received by the San Diego Unified School District.


An "after" image of San Diego Unified School District's MRAP shows the vehicle will be painted white with red crosses.



That article links to an earlier report which has decals photoshopped on the tank:
http://www.kpbs.org/news/2014/sep/09/san-diego-unified-got-armored-vehicle-under-milita/

San Diego Unified Got An Armored Vehicle Under Military Surplus Program
Tuesday, September 9, 2014
Joe Yerardi / inewsource

San Diego Unified School District recently acquired a tank.

Well, it’s as big as a tank, and it’s in the garage of Morse High School.

<snip>



A photo of the 2013 Caiman MRAP acquired by the San Diego Unified School District Police Department. The decals have been digitally rendered onto the vehicle.

<snip>

delete_bush

(1,712 posts)
27. Haven't studied this enough to
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 08:32 PM
Sep 2014

even have an opinion, but my gut reaction is they got something for essentially free and went for. Take the prize, figure out later why they need it.

I only commented because I'm also in San Diego, a supporter of the great KPBS, and it's TGIF!

procon

(15,805 posts)
26. Aren't these the same geniuses
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 07:05 PM
Sep 2014
who go ballistic over kid's hairdos and clothing?

"The vehicle should be able to pull down walls, ram through buildings and get to trapped victims."

Awesome! How many times in the last 20 years have I heard our local school police say, “Geez, I wish we had an MRAP to ram through buildings and rescue kids."

What idiot would authorize a bunch of Barney Fife wannabees to ram a gods be damned humongous tank through a classroom wall?
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