Gunpowder residue found on 18-year-old in St. Louis police shooting

[philosslayer]

Source: Los Angeles Times

The black 18-year-old man who was shot and killed by an off-duty St. Louis metropolitan police officer last week had gunpowder residue on his hands and clothes, according to forensic information released Tuesday.

Vonderrit Myers' death on Oct. 8 has drawn intense scrutiny in St. Louis and in the national media after his family claimed that he was holding a sandwich and not a gun when an officer fired at him 17 times, hitting him seven or eight times.

The gunpowder tests were carried out by the Missouri State Highway Patrol and showed residue on Myers' hands, shirt, and the inside of his waistband, according to a release from the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department. The department stated that the residue was not necessarily definitive proof that Myers had fired a gun.

"Individuals shot at close range can have gunshot residue deposited onto their hands," the statement said. "The presence of gunshot residue on the jeans and shirt could be from being in the environment of a discharged weapon or coming in contact with an object with gunshot residue on it."

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-st-louis-shooting-20141014-story.html

---

Well the police clearly learned a lesson after Michael Brown's murder. Very "convenient" evidence... and so quick!!

[scarystuffyo]

1. It's not a test that takes very long to administer

I'm glad they did it and put this question to rest whether he had fired at the police.

[philosslayer]

2. Nothing was "put to rest"

There is no proof that Vonderrit fired at the police officer. The article says as much.

[branford]

8. It proves enough for now.

Via a very quick and simple forensic test that can be confirmed independently, we now have conclusive evidence that, at the very least, Myers had an illegal gun on his person at the time of the incident, as well as some evidence that he fired a gun. This alone makes the case very different from the Michael Brown matter.

I would also note that one cannot ignore the fact that Myers was out on bail awaiting a November trial for illegal weapons possession and resisting arrest, wearing an anklet, and supposed to be under house arrest on that evening and, of course, could not possess a handgun.

[Hoppy]

16. I think you need to re-read the last paragraph of the report.

[branford]

17. The unsupported allegation of an apparently self-proclaimed "activist" is not evidence.

Ironically, Mr. McKesson, implicitly concedes that Myers was armed with an illegal firearm and therefore dangerous (apart from any issues concerning Myers violating bail conditions and house arrest).

If that is so, as it thus far appears to be, any claim by the officer that he witnessed Myers with a firearm, no less that he may have been going for his weapon, is in fact supported by the evidence.

Your point is also confusing. If the officer had reason to suspect or actually witnessed Myers with a firearm, are you actually alleging that he wouldn't have probable cause to approach and investigate, regardless of the suspect's race? Moreover, even if the officer approached without sufficient probable cause for a full search, but with some suspicion, Myer's alleged sudden flight would likely then provide the requisite probable cause to pursue, detain and thensearch. In any event, absent actual evidence that the officer sought to intentionally murder Myers, nothing would have justified shooting at the officer.

Minority youth are unjustifiably suspected of criminal conduct far too often. However, not every incident between a while officer and black youth is the result of racism, and unless the evidence begins to take a radical turn, the Myers case was not such an occurrence. Linking his death with cases like Brown, where the circumstances and evidence appear questionable at best, ultimately weakens the efforts of those seeking to eliminate racial disparities in the justice system.

[KingCharlemagne]

39. We have no such thing. We have a report in the LA Times of a release from the

St. Louis PD reporting supposedly the results conducted by the MO State Highway Patrol.

Why isn't the State Highway Patrol commenting on this? Why isn't that old whore the LA Times doing its job as journalists and instead functioning as little more than whores for the St. Louis PD?

And why are you so uncritically accepting and propagating the pigs' line? Are you a cop?

[branford]

48. I am not a cop. I am a trial attorney in NYC with no personal or professional connection

to the incident or St. Louis PD. I also stated that I am awaiting the official release of the full investigation. However, the purpose of the thread is to discuss the impact and importance of the released information. If the GSR report is not true, we will learn soon enough, and to the extent necessary, alter our opinions.

I also assume that the Highway Patrol is not commenting because they did not officially release the report and a very short time has expired since the leak.

However, from the aggressive tone of your post, I assume that you've already decided what occurred that evening, and my posts are an unwelcome intrusion on your preconceived notions about "pig" cops and "whore" journalists.

[KingCharlemagne]

51. This LA Times report proves absolutely NOTHING. Zip! As a lawyer, you should

know that.

[branford]

59. If true, the report is very important.

If the leaked report does not contain the alleged information, which we will discover soon enough, it makes the Highway Patrol look foolish.

However, there either is or is not GSR on Myers. If there is, such evidence is very good for the officer, and more importantly, is the actual topic of this thread.

Nevertheless, even if Myers clothes and autopsy are reviewed by independent experts, I doubt you'll concede any finding that might exonerate the police officer.

Your objection simply appears to be that we would dare discuss any exonerating information at all. Is Myers upcoming trial for weapons possession and serious bail issues also an impermissible topic?

[KingCharlemagne]

60. Actually, it makes the old whore the LA Times look foolish for uncritically printing

utter propaganda from the St. Louis PD.

The LA Times report in and of itself PROVES NOTHING! Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Except in the minds of those who've already made their minds up, aka 'confrimation bias.'

The LA Times is considered a joke out here in the progressive community.

[intaglio]

79. You really want police violence to be ignored, don't you?

BTW the other "quick and easy" test would be fingerprinting the weapon and rounds and comparing them to Myers fingerprints. Funny how the results of that test have not been trumpetted.

[branford]

81. Depends if the "police violence" was justified or improper.

The information that we currently have available thus far supports the officer's account and indicates that the shooting may have been justified, both appropriate and legally permissible. Not all incidents between white police officers and black youth are evidence of racism. If an officer is killed or injured in the line of duty by a violent minority assailant, as is also all too frequent in our society, is that evidence of "black violence?" Facts matter, and generalizations are dangerous.

There is certainly information yet to be revealed in a full investigation, including fingerprints, ballistics, autopsy results, toxicology, witness statements, identification of the two individuals with Myers, etc. Circumstances can change. If they do, I will gladly alter my preliminary opinions. I have nothing personally or professionally vested in the outcome.

I most certainly will not ignore evidence or information that may either exonerate or implicate the officer simply because it may not fit my initial assumptions or a prevailing narrative. Will you do the same, or have you already determined that Myers was an innocent victim and the officer a criminal?

And for those who complain the test results are not credible because they were first reported by the LA Time, numerous sources are reporting the story, and the police union had an official press conference. The attorney for the family has also responded.

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/police-union-myers-family-react-gun-residue-findings-shaw-shooting

I assume that the investigation will be plagued by piecemeal leaks given the current unrest, vested interests in the results and strong emotions by all sides. That unfortunate, but not unexpected. I nevertheless hope the investigation remains professional and completed with due and deliberate speed.

[KingCharlemagne]

37. They "put the question to rest" in the minds of people like you who already

had your minds made up.

WTF?

Does anyone trust anything coming out of Missouri law enforcement? If so, i have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

At this point, I only trust results from the Civil Rights division of the U.S. Department of Justice.

[GGJohn]

38. So you agree with them that there's no case against Zimmerman

and support their decision not to bring civil rights charges against him?

[KingCharlemagne]

41. Zimmerman? Please do try to keep up. I have no idea whom you

are referring to.

[GGJohn]

44. You did hear about George Zimmerman killing Trayvon Martin

didn't you?
You do know that the Civil Rights Division of the DoJ was looking at whether or not to charge him in that killing after Zimmerman was found not guilty by a FL jury?

You did say that you only trust the CRD of the DoJ?

[KingCharlemagne]

45. At this point, I'm not sure I fully trust even the CRD of the U.S. DoJ. But I still fail to see

what possible connection there is between a possible DoJ inquiry into the killer Zimmerman and the killer cop who extra-judicially executed Myers.

[GGJohn]

50. I get the feeling that even if there was video of Myers shooting at the cop

you would still claim the cop excuted Myers.
Well, thank the good lord that your proclamation doesn't affect the investigation, which is, with the latest evidence, looking more and more that this was a justifiable homicide.

[KingCharlemagne]

53. Are you a cop? This report in the whore publication the LA Times proves

absolutely nothing except in the minds of pig lovers who've already made their minds up.

[GGJohn]

56. Are you fair minded?

Are you willing to wait for the official report before passing judgement?
At this point in time, I would say no, you seem to have a big hard on for law enforcement.
Have a great life with your closed mind.

[branford]

61. "Pig lovers" "Whore publication" It seems you're the one who's already made up their mind.

[KingCharlemagne]

62. I'll bet you believed the LA Times when it reported in 2002 that Iraq had

WMDs.

See, once the LA Times failed on that, it lost credibility, just like the NY Times.

Except in the minds of the already convinced, aka, the pig lovers.

[branford]

52. We'll just have to bookmark your post for when the feds fail to charge the charge

the officer in the Myers shooting for lack of evidence of any wrongdoing.

Who do you trust? What evidence will you accept?

How do you know what happened?

[KingCharlemagne]

54. See. You've already decided that this spurious report PROVES that

the Myers' execution was justified.

You're a lawyer? Yipes.

[Lurks Often]

3. Gun powder residue on the inside of the waistband

would very strongly suggest that Myers was armed at the time of the shooting

[LiberalArkie]

4. Or had been armed with a gun that had been fired.

[Lurks Often]

5. I merely stated it indicated that Myers was armed, nothing more or less.

[LanternWaste]

94. No more and no less than it indicates he was shot at close range...

No more and no less than it indicates he was shot at close range by someone else who was armed...

“Individuals shot at close range can have gunshot residue deposited onto their hands,” the statement said. “The presence of gunshot residue on the jeans and shirt could be from being in the environment of a discharged weapon or coming in contact with an object with gunshot residue on it.”

However, I do recognize that individual biases may often deny us the ability to see more than the one possibility which validates that bias...

[Lurks Often]

95. It was the residue found INSIDE of the waistband that strongly indicates he was armed

not the residue on the clothes. I find it exceedingly unlikely that residue from the police officer's weapon could have found it's way to the inside of the waistband.


"However, I do recognize that individual biases may often deny us the ability to see more than the one possibility which validates that bias..."

Maybe I'm not the one with the bias

[KinMd]

6. Since Myers had a pending gun charge

if he got got arrested AGAIN with a gun, he was going away for awhile. So he had a big motive not be arrested.

[DreamSmoker]

7. What if you were on the Jury???

Going on just what is posted..
It is enough for me to be convinced

Now check and see if the Powder was on the top of the hands or the backside..
Top side is a indicator the Suspect did fire a weapon.. Powder would be concentrated on the top skin of the hands and very little if any on the inside as it was covered by holding the grip of the Gun...

If you put your hand out as defense.. Powder would then be concentrated on the inside of the hand.

[branford]

9. The full and official autopsy report should be enlightening. nt

[cstanleytech]

10. I personally want to see what the fingerprint tests come back with on the gun.

If they find the kids prints on the gun and on the ammo inside it (assuming they think to check it) then it would be difficult to argue with the officers version of events.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

12. I'd like to see who's prints (if any) are on the shells....

It's too easy to make a dead hand plant prints on a throw down gun in the field.

[branford]

13. The GSR was on Myers hands, shirt and waistbant.

That's a lot more than just fingerprints on an allegedly planted gun.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

18. Thats enough to make white people feel good about another dead black youth.

[branford]

20. Are you suggesting that regardless of the evidence, the shooting was unjustified,

or any evidence that doesn't support your perceptions is the result of some racist police conspiracy?

If so, you and those like you are most definitely not helping the cause to eliminate racial disparities in the criminal justice system.

Moreover, don't be surprised that when you generalize all "white people," particularly that the patently offensive suggestion that they "feel good about another dead black youth," you actually end-up justifying similarly racist perceptions of all "black people."

[Spitfire of ATJ]

23. Are you suggesting the only way to "eliminate racial disparities in the criminal justice system",...

...is to deny it exists EXCEPT where it pertains to the unjustly victimized WHITE people?

[branford]

27. And you obviously did not read any of my posts . . .

I'll ask again. Have you already decided that the Myers shooting was unjustified and proof of racism, and that no actual evidence can change your perception or any evidence that doesn't fit your perceptions must be somehow tainted?

As I stated, it is a fact that minorities are often treated poorly in the justice system because of race. However, not all minorities are treated unfairly by the system, and not all incidents between white police officer and black youth are the result of racism.

If you actually want to eliminate racial disparities, defending individuals who likely were not unfairly treated, will have the opposite effect. Similarly, accusing all whites of heinous beliefs will do nothing but alienate potential allies and supporters, and is, in fact, also racism.

If you want racism in the criminal justice system to continue, you are free to advocate fringe theories and accuse all whites of racism, all the time. I and others will rely on actual evidence and protest and take peaceful action when truly warranted.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

84. Are you sure you're not Ned Flanders?

[Adrahil]

85. That's a bit unfair....

.... if the shoot was justified, it was justified, regardless of the color of the victim.

Having said that, it'd be much easier to accept the justified shootings if shooting that weren't justified weren't seemingly so common.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

89. Bingo. Trust is the key and they violated that trust.

[cstanleytech]

14. Well they can always check which hand the prints came from and how they were positioned on the

weapon itself, while it wouldnt eliminate the possibility of the prints being planted 100% it would put it more into the area for those who keep insisting they were planted yet have nothing that proves it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

11. Ah,...so that explains why the cops were all standing around snickering....

Right?

[branford]

21. I assume that you have credible evidence of your allegations as it pertains to the Myers shooting?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. I have credible evidence that the entire police force should be fired for sheer STUPIDITY.

[GGJohn]

24. Then post your credible evidence that the entire SLMPD should be fired.

Ferguson PD? Hell yes, but what sheer stupidity is present in the Myer's shooting?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

25. I already said....

With tensions the way they are you have a bunch of white cops SNICKERING at the scene.

You know,....like it's funny as hell.

[branford]

28. Again, where is you evidence of the alleged "snickering" after the Myers shooting?

Your allegation is not evidence, no matter how badly you believe it to be true.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

31. Did you watch the live feeds that night?

[GGJohn]

29. Do you have any evidence that the cops were snickering at the scene?

Video? Audio? Witnesses? Anything?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

32. It's was captured on live feeds.

[GGJohn]

35. And you yourself heard this?

Links?

And even IF that were true, why would you have the whole SLMPD fired? Was the whole dept there at the scene?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

40. I was online here and there were links to people on the ground providing live feeds....

I saw the cops run off by the neighbors too. One of the cops cars had a rear window busted out by something thrown as they were leaving.

Guess what?

They didn't stop.

[GGJohn]

46. Then we were watching far different feeds.

The cops conducted and finished their crime scene investigation, had the Fire Department hose down the scene and then left, they weren't run off by the neighbors.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

87. I followed the links on this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025650640

Bassam Masri is great.

[GGJohn]

92. I'm a little confused here.

Are you talking about Ferguson, MO, or St. Louis, MO?
Those live feeds all seem to be about the protests in Ferguson, not St. Louis.
Were those for the Myers shooting or Mike Brown's unwarranted shooting?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

93. Both. You have to look by date. Some archived clips are over an hour.

This one is where the cops are run off:

http://upmv09-ntt-upmv.ustream.tv/0/1/53/53742/53742953/1_18956568_53742953.flv

[GitRDun]

15. Just my opinion

but my thinking is this new information will not convince the public this kid was holding or fired a gun.

There is no trust. People will say the evidence was planted.

After seeing officer go fuck yourself and a myriad of others tear gasing innocents, I can't say that I blame them.

In my opinion, this case and Michael Brown will result in no charges and an out of court settlement on wrongful death suit. That seems to be the pattern, sadly.

[branford]

19. If there was a high definition video with sound, filmed by the Pope and Obama,

of Myers unjustifiably shooting at the officer, I believe many of the activists will still claim the officer was in the wrong.

We, of course, still need to wait for the full investigation. However, I believe that for some, it not about the evidence, rather not letting a tragedy go to waste. Sadly, if the actions of the officer were appropriate, it makes those activists look foolish before the general public, weakens good faith efforts by everyone to eliminate actual racism, and will result in people believing officers' testimony in the future when the evidence is far less clear. I would analogize this to some high profile rape or other serious criminal allegations that have been discovered to be false. It makes the allegations of every other rape suspect also suspect in cases that are already difficult to prove. Unless we wait for the evidence, we could be stuck with another Tawana Brawley or Duke LaCross-type scenario.

The cases of Brown and Myers are appear significantly different from one another. I believe that in the unlikely event the state grand jury does not issue an indictment in the Brown matter, a federal case is a distinctly possible. However, thus far there appears no justification for any case relating to Myers, criminal or civil.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

26. I suppose a mom saying, "Armed with a sandwich" tends to stick in the mind too.

[GGJohn]

33. It would if that were true,

but the mounting evidence would suggest that Myers did have a gun and did shoot at the officer.

[branford]

34. Although I empathize with Myers' mother's grief, she is not a witness to the incident.

The fact that a mother lover her son is not evidence, for if it was, virtually no one would be guilty of crimes, regardless of race.

It reminds me of the innumerable stories of those caught or killed in the middle of a serious crime like burglary, and the mourning parents proclaiming that their son, usually with a criminal record, "was a good boy" "who would never do anything wrong," and the incident is "just a misunderstanding."

In any event, a sandwich does not leave gunpowder residue, no less on a waistband, and Myers could have had both an illegal firearm and a sandwich in his possession.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

36. Funny how these shootings produce people franticly denying it's racial too....

You know,...like it's important to keep things calm and maintain the status quo...

[Igel]

86. Moms say all kinds of things to defend their kids.

Especially when they feel threatened.

When I was a kid a neighbor shot one of his acquaintances in his front yard. The mother said her son was innocent. Everybody else assumed that he was a fence and dealing drugs and the deal went sour.

The mother continued to say he was innocent. When his prints were found on the gun. When witnesses--biased, all of them--said he had done it. When ammo for the gun was found in the son's bedroom. With illegal drugs in quantities larger than end-users typically have sitting around. And things that had been reported stolen during burglaries over the last couple of months.

The mother continued to say he was innocent during the trial, guilty verdict, appeal, and denial of appeal. Eventually the family moved to be closer to the prison where their son was going to be living for a while.

Many mothers in proclaiming their sons' innocence are correct. Many are not. And there's not an obvious immediate test to see which ones are accurate. Opinions are nice, but pretty much worthless. For this, we can wait for facts instead of preaching and proselytizing, and denouncing people as heretics. It's a discussion board, not a church.

[Adrahil]

88. I'm sure.

But keep in mind a few things:

1) Witnesses, especially in this instance are not necessarily unbiased.

2) Even when trying to actually be objective, eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable.

I think the residue evidence should at least lean towards doubt that this was a mere innocent bystander, even if you still believe the shooting was unjustified.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

90. Keep this in mind too...

The nearly all white police have been shooting black youth all over Ferguson for YEARS. Michael Brown was the last straw as he was trying to surrender. Then the cops lied about it. They didn't even fill out an incident report until the Feds demanded to see one and it was mostly blank. They didn't even want to reveal the officers NAME and they let him leave town. Now they have members of their force wearing provocative armbands. Their response to the neighbors being outraged was to go full tactical including a cop on top of a tank pointing a machine gun at them, only to then to simulate a war zone at night. The cops treated everyone like they had no rights imposing an unlawful curfew and arresting people for standing still.

In this atmosphere you expect to play "sensible woodchuck"?

Good luck with that.

[Red State Rebel]

100. How many have been shot and over how many years?

I live in St. Louis. Saying the St. Louis Police need to be replaced is over the top in my opinion. The Meyers case began to fall apart quickly and now with the evidence of the gun residue it's a goner.

I'm waiting to hear the evidence in the Brown case. Unlike some who prefer to call justice only a ruling that agrees with their opinion, I know how hard it is to serve on a jury and how stressful it is. After having done that, I vowed NEVER to jump to conclusions regarding court cases unless I heard every word of the evidence myself. Staying calm and using common sense saves a lot of stress

[Spitfire of ATJ]

101. Hell, I've been the FORMAN on several juries myself...

And I have to tell you that "evidence" is compiled by very people who are trying to back up their side of the story to gain a checkmark on their list of successful convictions.

Evidence is often cherry-picked or out and out fabricated. What would be really COOL would be for there to be ZERO connection between those who gather the evidence and those who prosecute crimes. Like a division of a citizen's review board.

[Kalidurga]

30. I am sorry you are taking so much heat for a logical opinion

I think the cases are very different as well. There are still a lot of weirdness that needs to be cleared up. I find it odd that Myers bought a sandwich and six minutes later he was shooting at a police officer. The absence of a hoody on the video footage is strange as well. I am still don't have enough evidence one way or another to have a strong opinion on what happened. But, this evidence if it hasn't been a case of tampering does strongly suggest the shooting happened and the odd juxtaposition of events may eventually turn out to have a logical explanation or at least a timeline.

[branford]

42. The circumstances of the Myers and Brown shooting appear to be very different.

The presence of a sandwich does not negate the possession of a firearm, and a sandwich does not leave GSR, no less on the victim' s waistband.

As I stated before, I will await the full investigation. However, a story of a shootout that did not occur would be odd, at best, from a police officer who would know of the extensive forensic evidence that would be left after such an event. The fact that Myers was on bail for a weapons charge, and likely violating his bail conditions, and that any arrest or charge by the officer that evening could result in his incarceration for many years, is certainly a pertinent context when evaluating the situation.

Unfortunately, some believe that accepting evidence that a particular case may not be the result of racism, is actually supporting racism in the system. I and most others will not avoid discussion because of some foolish and shortsighted views.

[Kalidurga]

47. I will wait as well.

I have no emotional stake in believing any one group is always wrong. In fact I would prefer to believe that the police act in good faith most of the time. I know that there are too many cases where they do not. I think we need to have a different way of investigating police shootings. That so much is done by the department that the officer involved in the shooting comes from is wrong for starters. But, that being said the preliminary facts coming out do indicate Myers did in fact at least fire a weapon that day.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

43. According to the locals there was a foot pursuit and he was mistaken for a perp.

[Kalidurga]

49. Yes I realize that

I am going to avoid a knee jerk reaction to every shooting that occurs. I think at least half the time the situation could have been handled differently. I don't know if it could have been in this case. It's hinky, but I will wait and see what turns up.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

67. For the sake of the community the police need to be replaced....

I'm sure there are some places that will welcome them.

[KingCharlemagne]

57. Myers was mistaken by the pig for one of the perps he was pursuing. That's

why the sandwich Myers had just purchased and was holding became a 'gun.'

The LA Times isn't worth the paper it's printed on, btw. It's considered a joke out here in LA.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

70. The OC Register is worse.

[KingCharlemagne]

71. I'd like to say that some readers on DU are merely credulous, giving them the

benefit of the doubt, because I don't want to think worse of them.

The LA Times is suitable for bird-cage liner and little more. Only print chain in the U.S. still worth reading is McClatchy. (It got the Iraq WMD story right a month before Shocking and Awful started, the only print chains to do so.)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

73. Yup, saw it on Knight Ridder back in 2002 prior to the merger....

http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/wrong-on-iraq-not-everyone/

[Red State Rebel]

102. I live here in St. Louis and I haven't heard that.

From all reports, the officer recognized him from prior contact in the neighborhood. I'm amazed at some of the outlandish things you are reporting as fact and I don't see you posting any proof of all of these allegations.

I live about 1-1/2 miles from where the Meyers incident happened. I get my news locally and from the neighborhoods themselves.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

103. Did you join the protests? I got it from the live feeds of people on the ground.

[KingCharlemagne]

55. Fair Warning: the LA Times reported that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction back

in 2002.

Caveat emptor

[GGJohn]

63. Maybe if you did a little research, you would realize that it's not only the LA Times reporting this

http://article.wn.com/view/2014/10/15/Gunshot_Residue_Found_on_St_Louis_Shooting_Victim_Lab_Result/

[KingCharlemagne]

64. Please elaborate on the journalistic credibility of RIA Novosti.

[GGJohn]

66. Please elaborate your proclaimation that the police officer executed Myers.

You accuse us of being closed minded, yet your doing the same exact thing here, so, at this point, any further conversation with you is worthless.

[KingCharlemagne]

68. Oh, 'execution' is putting it politely. How about 'gunned him down with

17 shots like a dog.'

What's the name of that killer cop, btw? Or are the SLPD too chickenshit to release it?

[Enrique]

96. not only a lame argument

but it's not even true.

[KingCharlemagne]

99. You can make that assertion, but it's contradicted by the LA Times'

Doyle McManus himself:

Even Al Gore believed that Iraq had WMDs, said Doyle McManus, who covered the period for the Los Angeles Times.“The consensus was universal,” he says.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/on-iraq-journalists-didnt-fail-they-just-didnt-succeed/2013/03/22/0ca6cee6-9186-11e2-9abd-e4c5c9dc5e90_story.html

Call it a 'lame argument' if you want. Progressives in Los Angeles openly laugh at the LA Times. I canceled my sub to them when they fired Bob Scheer and brought on the serial fabricators Jonah Goldberg and Max Boot.

[merrily]

58. Last line of the OP = my first thought on seeing the thread title.

Not saying I am correct. I am saying it was the first thing that popped into my head. And I was not alone. That is a problem that society is going to need to address. And bashing people who have that reaction is not "addressing" the root problem.

[KingCharlemagne]

65. Funny how if the execution of Myers was so righteous, the SLPD can't release the

killer pig's name. Probably b/c the SLPD is helping aid and abet his flight, much as the Ferguson PD did with the killer cop Wilson (whose name had to be drug out of them).

Righteous extra-judicial execution by anonymous pig.

[GGJohn]

69. Pig this, killer pig that?

You do know that the 60's are long gone don't you?

[KingCharlemagne]

72. Tell that to the youth of Ferguson and St. Louis, why don't you?

[Deuce]

78. Fine...now how did it get there?

[freshwest]

80. My first impression on this story, before going to the link matches the link:

Last edited Wed Oct 15, 2014, 06:06 AM - Edit history (1)

“Individuals shot at close range can have gunshot residue deposited onto their hands,” the statement said. “The presence of gunshot residue on the jeans and shirt could be from being in the environment of a discharged weapon or coming in contact with an object with gunshot residue on it.”

If the officer (who was not a police officer acting as law enforcement but as a private security guard) was upclose or the young man held his hands up, it might account for the GSR.

And we are speculating from what is in media reports and not the official reports nor what would be used in a trial. We still don't know, no reason for the vitriol down thread.

This may mean nothing at all to culpability when it's fully reviewed, and we probably will not get all the facts to discuss it even then.

Until then, we still obliged to regard this shooting with great suspicion.

EDIT for branford: The company the shooter worked for also has a record of not following the best practices. Companies do not pay out settlements to make people happy. See the link:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/11/security-firm-involved-in-st-louis-shooting-has-history-of-lawsuits

The young man who is dead, whether or not he was the criminal some say he was, cannot speak for himself now.

And the grief of his family and the harm to POC for centuries of terrorism committed against them in the USA will play a factor.

EDIT for branford: I did NOT say the factor would be in play at the trial. The grief of his parents didn't do a thing for Trayvon Martin's trial (he was clearly on trial in the media, while Zimmermann was lionized) and it hasn't even effected an arrest in the Michael Brown case. But it is a matter in the court of public opinion, and ubiquitous. And the context of that statement is:

A social revolution at the ballot box is the only way to change this, but only after people first admit there is a systematic problem. This is not part of the 'post racial' society that some may want to view this event in.

EDIT for branford: coming in contact with an object with gunshot residue on it may very well mean his hands had GSR and he put them in his pants.

And anyone can be viewed with suspicion. No one gets a free pass in matters of life and death. EOM.

[branford]

82. That would not account for the GSR on the inside of his pockets or waistband.

And when you say the "shooter also has a record of not following the best practices," are you referring to the police officer. If so, could you kindly provide a credible citation for that allegation. His name has not even been released, no less his records. If you are referring to his status as a special duty officer, it has not been contested that the officer was in his police uniform, lawfully engaged it he security work, and maintained all rights duties and obligations as when he was "on-duty," and therefore does not constitute evidence of any wrongdoing.

As with any shooting, you are certainly entitled to view it with any level suspicion you wish. However, I would hope your (and everyone's) opinion changes with the facts.

I am, however, very troubled by you assertion that the grief of Myers family of past societal racism should play a "factor" in the outcome of the investigation. The only pertinent facts and circumstances are of the particular encounter between the officer and Myers. The officer is not more or less guilty because of general societal racism or family grief, and should only be responsible for his own actions under the law, not a sacrifice to the mob if the evidence indicates that the shooting was justified.

The GSR information and some updates:
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/police-union-myers-family-react-gun-residue-findings-shaw-shooting

[freshwest]

83. We are on a message board, not in the streets as a mob, and not in court. EDITED for you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014917979#post80

You may want to consider that if you reply to me, but most likely I won't answer. Participation is voluntary online, not serious matters in RL. This is VL.

[branford]

98. A few quick points

1. Companies pay-out civil settlements all the time, even when they believe they are not liable, for any number of reasons. I should know, I'm a commercial trial attorney.

The most common reason is the costs of litigation, and that as most matters are defended and settlements paid through liability insurance, the business decision is only tangentially controlled by the company.

More importantly, I don't see how these settlement would be relevant unless they dealt with conduct similar to the evening in question, and it involved the same officer.

2. You cited only part of the GSR evidence, while ignoring the portions that did not support your views (e.g., GSR on waistband and inner pockets. That's a little to "slippery" when discussing whether someone's a killer.

3. Do you still believe that the grief of the family, or history of racism in the USA, is determinative of the officer's actual guilt, whether in or out of a courtroom?

[Bacchus4.0]

91. There won't be any trial n/t

[freshwest]

97. You may want to tell branford that, as I only answered his concern that opinion would influence one.

Public opinion or outrage has not resulted in a trial for Darren Wilson, and this shooter may also never be charged. The company he worked for may be sued, just as it was in other cases. EOM.