Protests temporarily close malls, shut down trains

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-Excite

By JIM SALTER and TOM FOREMAN Jr.

FERGUSON, Mo. (AP) — Demonstrators temporarily shut down two large malls in suburban St. Louis on one of the busiest shopping days of the year Friday, as rallies were held nationwide to protest a grand jury's recent decision not to indict the police officer who fatally shot 18-year-old Michael Brown in nearby Ferguson.

Several stores lowered their security doors or locked entrances as at least 200 protesters sprawled onto the floor while chanting, "Stop shopping and join the movement" at the Galleria mall in Richmond Heights a few miles south of Ferguson, where officer Darren Wilson fatally shot Brown, who was unarmed, in August.

The protest prompted authorities to close the mall for about an hour Friday afternoon, while a similar protest of about 50 people had the same effect at West County Mall in nearby Des Peres. It didn't appear that any arrests were made.

The protests were among the largest in the country on Black Friday, along with rallies elsewhere in the country including Chicago, New York, Seattle and northern California, where protesters chained themselves to trains.

FULL story at link.



About 200 people demonstrate at a plaza near the historic water tower, located along Chicago's Michigan Avenue, on Friday, Nov. 28, 2014, in Chicago. The protestors called on people to boycott shopping on Black Friday as a show of solidarity with protesters in Ferguson Missouri. At one point the demonstrator lay down on the cold ground in a silent protest. (AP Photo/Sara Burnett)

Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20141129/us-ferguson-99187fa219.html

---

Chicago, New York, Seattle and northern California!!!!
Associated Press writers Phillip Lucas and David A. Lieb in St. Louis, Mae Anderson in New York, Sara Burnett in Chicago and Kristin J. Bender in Oakland, California, contributed to this report.

[PosterChild]

1. "Stop shopping and join the movement" ....

.... how moving. 200 protesters? 50 at another location? Pretty pitiful. This is a movement that isn't going to move very much further.

[Bjorn Against]

4. How many people do you expect there to be?

These are not national marches, not every protest has to have thousands of people. 50 people protesting at a single store is more than enough to be noticed. Most of the sit-ins at segregated restaurants during the civil rights movement had less people than that, but nobody can claim they did not make a difference or that their crowds were too small because they had more than enough people to pull off the action they were organizing to pull off.

[PosterChild]

28. To compare this protest to...

...the sit ins at segregated lunch counters during the civil rights era isn't appropriate. It is at best self-aggrandizing, and at worse insulting.

First and foremost, the Greensboro and subsequent sit-ins were targeted to a very specific, well-recognized, and easily identified injustice. The protesters were actually defying the injustice they sought to overcome and were putting themselves in jeopardy of arrest and mob vengeance. They were provoking an overreaction on the part of the segregationists that dramatized the injustice and compelled people who were complacent to take a stand and turn against segregation. The were heroic and effective.

In contrast, what injustice are these protesters confronting and defying? Holiday shopping? Apparently so, since their slogans and statements demand us to "stop shopping", " think twice before spending that dollar" and to eschew "materialism". In other words, people who are literally just going about their business and enjoying the holiday spirit are being specifically targeted for going about their business and enjoying the holiday spirit. If these folks had any inclination toward sympathy for or understanding of "the movement" they most probably have made up their mind against it.

"Materialism" may not be an entirely virtuous life-style choice, but it is not an injustice in and of itself, and it doesn't make one complicit in the injustices of Ferguson. Confusing and conflating concrete and manifest injustice with something so abstract as "materialism" and to punish the general public for it is a losing "strategy". If "strategy" actually has anything to do with it at all.

[Bjorn Against]

33. You seriously don't see any injustice?

Are low wages not an injustice? Is it not an injustice for the retailers to deny their employees health care? Is it not an injustice that they retaliate against employees who attempt to organize the workers? Is it not an injustice that the Walton family is worth more money than all their workers combined?

You just clearly showed that you have no clue what these protests are about, your opinion comes from ignorance.

[PosterChild]

34. You think I'm confused?

Of course low wages, lack of health care and unfair labor practices are unjust. That's why I support the Organization United for Respect, OUR Walmart.

So what, exactly, does that have to do with playing dead in a mall, demanding that shoppers stop shopping and expecting the general populace to give up "materialism" for... for what? Instead, such actions and demands are objectively contrary to the material interests of the retail workers you claim to be concerned about.

Did I say "material interest"? Holy cow, isn't that "materialism"???? Well, yes it is. High wages and good benefits are materialistic values. Are retail clerks sinful for wanting a decent living? If materialist consumers aren't out shopping - if they "think twice before spending that dollar today" and feel guilty about it, where will those high wages and good benefits come from?

And exactly what does "materialism" have to do with Ferguson and Michel Brown's death? Are these shoppers responsible for that? Is blaming their lack of spiritual purity and making them feel guilty for this incident going to help that situation in any way? Or might they resent being accused for something they had nothing to do with and decide to just ignore the whole thing. And go back to shopping.

Antagonizing, vilifying and alienating the people you (I assume) hope to convince and bring to your side doesn't seem like a good strategy to me.

The OUR Walmart organization, however, is a different story. They have a concrete, focused and easy to understand set of interrelated core issues: low wages, poor benefits and lack of representation. They have an easy to identify "bad guy" who they are against: Walmart. And, as far as I can tell, they are trying to create solidarity and sympathy with the general populace, not antagonize, vilify and alienate them. That's the way it should be done.

[Live and Learn]

35. Never heard of it. I guess that is working well. nt

[PosterChild]

37. Are you referring to OUR Walmart? Here...

... is a recent OP by Omaha Steve, the OP author for this thread, specifically about it. That's one reason why I mentioned it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014954115

Here is their web site: http://forrespect.org/our-walmart/about-us/

OUR Walmart Vision

We envision a future in which our company treats us, the Associates of Walmart, with respect and dignity. We envision a world where we succeed in our careers, our company succeeds in business, our customers receive great service and value, and Walmart and Associates share all of these goals.

OUR Walmart Mission

OUR Walmart works to ensure that every Associate, regardless of his or her title, age, race, or sex, is respected at Walmart. We join together to offer strength and support in addressing the challenges that arise in our stores and our company everyday.

If you search "OUR Walmart" in the DU site search you will find quite a few mentions.

[Bjorn Against]

39. Yes you are confused, these protests are not about materialism

The protest in the OP is about the Michael Brown shooting, the one I participated in was to fight for better wages and working conditions. If there were any protests about materialism yesterday they represented a very small fraction of the protests. The fact that you pretend these protests are all about materialism shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.

[PosterChild]

51. I'm simply quoting...

...from and responding to the news article linked to in the OP. This tells us that "rallies were held nationwide to protest a grand jury's recent decision" and reports how the protesters have turned "their attention to disrupting commerce".

At the Galleria protest, presumably about the Michael Brown shooting:

the protesters sprawled onto the floor while chanting, "Stop shopping and join the movement".

At the Magnificent Mile protest:

a member of the Let Us Breathe Collective, which has been taking supplies such as gas masks to protesters in Ferguson called Friday "a day of awareness and engagement. We want them to think twice before spending that dollar today," she said of shoppers. "As long as black lives are put second to materialism, there will be no peace."

What does shopping have to do with the Michael Brown shooting? And how does vilifying shoppers lead to better wages and working conditions?

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20141129/us-ferguson-99187fa219.html

[Bjorn Against]

53. No one is villifying shoppers

And quoting one protester who mentioned materialism does not make the whole protest about materialism.

[PosterChild]

60. You are right, there was only one protester....

...who explicitly used the term "materialism". There were quite a few who indirectly did through references to shopping and by specifically targeting commercial facilities and activities. That was the basic theme of the article, and from the examples that were given, that seems to be a recurring theme of the protests that were reported.

Contrast that to the NAACP's week long "Journey for Justice" and the message that is coming across in the press:

* "This is a non-violent march. This is a peaceful march and we're seeking systemic, fundamental reform of policing in this country"

* "We need equal justice for everyone. Whether you're white, red, black or green it doesn't matter. Equal justice all the way across the line"

* "We want to stick together as one. Not as African Americans and Caucasians but as one family."

The reported actions at the malls projected a much different, antagonistic tone and the message was not focused and on-point for either the issues concerning criminal justice or income inequality. Rather than be defensive about this and simply denying it, I think you should consider the implications for how our issues are being presented to the public and how they are being received. If you aren't, you won't be successful in reaching people, educating them and effecting change.

[Bjorn Against]

61. I was actually at one of the demonstrations

I am quite certain I know a whole hell of a lot more about what these demonstrations are about than someone who posts a quote from a single protester who mentioned materialism and then tries to pretend the whole protest was about materialism.

If you don't even understand what the protests are about then you have no credibility.

[PosterChild]

64. Its not about me....

If I, a DUer who follows the issues and reads posts from folks who actually participate in the protest, can't understand what these protests are about, what hope does the general public have for understanding, sympathizing and being convinced?

In the end it's not about me and whether or not I have credibility. It's about the general public and what they make of it, having experienced the protest or having read about it in the newspaper. If you aren't concerned about that, if you don't control and shape the message in a proactive and positive way, if you come off as antagonistic and threatening, you won't be successful.

The choice is yours to make. You can take my observations and criticism as constructive and give them some consideration, or you can be defensive about it and ignore it.

[Bjorn Against]

65. You are actively working not to understand what the protests are about

You have continued to harp on"materialism" even though that was not what was being protested, then you tried to claim that the protesters were villanizing shoppers without giving even a single example of how they have done so. You clearly have your mind made up despite not having the facts to back up your negative opinion, the rest of the public does not necessarily jump to conclusions like you do.

[PosterChild]

68. Consider this from a different perspective...

... from the perspective of the general public that most definitely is not actively working to understand what the protests are about. That is 99.999% of your audience out their in the real world. People who don't understand and who are not actively working to understand the issues. In other words, shoppers.

Your job, as an activist, is to reach these people, get their attention for a brief moment, and to give them that understanding whether they are working towards it or not. And, believe me, they are not. They are shopping.

If people have to "work to understand" they will not understand. That takes work! If people feel antagonized and threatened, they will not understand. That takes much more than work. If you want people to understand then YOU have to do the work for them, and YOU have to make them feel good about it.

My impression from the OP is that the protests and the protesters reported on did not make that effort and probably did little for the cause, if not harm.

[Bjorn Against]

69. So you believe that 99.999% of shoppers are not actively working to understand the issues?

I hope you realize that you just insulted shoppers far worse than the protesters did. You just told us that 99.999% of shoppers are not actively working to understand the issues. I am sure a whole lot of the people shopping would take offense if you told them that they are not actively working to educate themselves.

Were you at the protest? If not how can you claim the protesters did not make the effort to reach out to the people in a positive way?

[PosterChild]

71. Actually I probably insulted 99.999999% of...

...the entire human race. However, the facts are the facts. Most people, shoppers or not, are not actively working to understand the issues. They have other things on their mind and don't want to be bothered.

My judgement of the protester's actions and the effect they may have had is based solely on the newspaper article and my previous experiences in similar situations. I'm sure they made an effort. I hope they were successful in it. However, I seriously doubt it.

[Bjorn Against]

73. Speak for yourself

You may not care about the issues that effect our world, but many people do. You may not work to understand the issues, but I can assure you that some people do try to get educated about these sorts of issues. I can ensure you that far more than 0.000001% of the people of the world make an effort to educate themselves. Just because you don't make an effort to educate yourself about the issues does not mean that everyone else actively avoids educating themselves like you do.

[PosterChild]

75. Perhaps...

RE: I can ensure you that far more than 0.000001% of the people of the world make an effort to educate themselves.

Perhaps. But if it were actually a truly significant number we probably wouldn't have to be staging die-ins at the mall.

[Feral Child]

59. You're *deliberately* misinterpreting the situation.

To think that this struggle isn't the same struggle is to minimize and trivialize the deaths that have sparked the latest battle in the ongoing war against oppression.

Black youth is being killed. Do you not get that? Black children are being chosen as targets of availability because they are most vulnerable.
The present struggle is a continuation of the resistance of the '60s against the war of attrition against the black race. The heroic black soldiers and their white counterparts face death and prison just as before. Heroes abound, just as before.

"...what injustice are these protesters confronting and defying?" You can't be that stupid and inhuman. You can't fail to understand that these protesters are confronting the organized and officially sanctioned murderers of black children; hence, you're being deliberately dishonest.


Your belittling of this struggle is telling. The Oppressors have always used that tactic. I believe you're supporting the Oppressors because you're a member.

Economic tactics are the best weapon we have in this war. I've been quoted in this thread and I'd like to remind you:
"Like all oppressed people through-out history, they (black people) realize that a mob can't over-run a cohesive force of well-armed, government supported troops, no matter how poorly trained and disciplined those soldiers may be."

Boycott and disruption are tactics of resistance, tactics you and your ilk fear above all else. You're terrified of being impoverished and on an equal economic level as your victims.

FUCK your "holiday spirit". There's a fucking war going on and you want everyone to ignore it because of the "Baby Jesus" Don't you care at all about the actual babies dying around you as daily events?

Rhetorical, of course. I know what you care about. And your going to lose.

[PosterChild]

62. You don't have to convince me...

... you have to convince the people who were antagonized and vilified at the mall.

When you shout "FUCK your 'holiday spirit'" they have a choice. They can decide to stop shopping and join the movement or they can call mall security. I'm wondering how many harts and minds the reported protests won over.


Contrast that to the NAACP's week long "Journey for Justice" and the message that is coming across in the press:

* "This is a non-violent march. This is a peaceful march and we're seeking systemic, fundamental reform of policing in this country"

* "We need equal justice for everyone. Whether you're white, red, black or green it doesn't matter. Equal justice all the way across the line"

* "We want to stick together as one. Not as African Americans and Caucasians but as one family."

[Bjorn Against]

63. How is asking the shoppers to join them villifying the shoppers?

Before you were upset that they asked the shoppers to "stop shopping and join the movement", but asking shoppers to join them is not villifying shoppers it is reaching out to them. If the protesters wanted to villanize shoppers as you claim they do then why would they want to be joined by the people you claim they are villanizing?

[PosterChild]

66. You are right, it could be interpreted that way...

...or not. I think you have to put yourself in the place of the shoppers and consider what they might make of it and how they reacted.

Did they set down their shopping bags and join the protest? Was there a spontaneous show of support and solidarity? Or did they call mall security and move out of the area as fast as they could?

That's what counts. What they made of it and how they reacted to it. Not a dictionary definition of the words in the slogan.

So, honestly, what do you think the typical shopper made of it? Did they experience it as an invitation to join hands with other like-minded folks in an important project of equality and justice? Or did they experience it as an off-putting personal put-down?

[Bjorn Against]

67. Why would anyone view being asked to join as a put down?

Seriously? You think asking somebody to join you in solidarity could be viewed as a put down? Not only a put down in fact, you previously claimed asking them to join them was actually villifying the shoppers.

You clearly want to find a reason to take offense so you are trying to find a way to spin a call for solidarity as an attack.

The protesters are not villanizing the shoppers, you are villanizing the protesters.

[PosterChild]

70. I'm sorry for being so critical...

... and villanizing the protesters. My first post was pretty much a spontaneous expression of dismissal. I hope to have provided some bit of reasoning and explanation for my initial reaction. Discussing it with you has helped me to clarify my stance, but to be honest, it has not changed my mind. I think the reported protests were a net negative and that these particular protesters have a ways to go in their understanding of effective activism.

You are right, the slogan "Stop shopping and join the movement" can be taken to be an invitation of solidarity. It can also be, and in my opinion, actually would be taken as an antagonistic put-down by the shoppers who were experiencing the protest. That is a matter of perception and subjective interpretation in the context of the protest - it is not a matter of fact based on the literal dictionary meaning of the words. I think that is something that must be understood and accounted for in any activity that seeks to reach out to others and change their minds.

I think the example of the NAACP's march is a useful contrast. What do you think of it?

[Bjorn Against]

72. I see no reason to pit this protest against the NAACP march

I support the march the NAACP put on, and I support the protesters at the mall as well. Not all protests have to use the same tactics and I think both marches and die-ins are effective tactics, I support both groups.

[PosterChild]

74. That's a fair response....

... and one I don't fully agree with. I don't think all protests are equally effective, and I think some of them may be detrimental.

It is a matter of judgement, but I think the NAACP has a lot of experience and has had a lot of success and that they exemplify the better approach.

[KingCharlemagne]

9. Thanks for your concern. - nt

[Feral Child]

23. 'Morning, KingCharlemane.

How was your holiday?

[KingCharlemagne]

27. The lingering sadness over Michael Brown's death and

assorted related matters tempered the festivities and tinged them with this soul-sucking sadness. I could not stop myself from thinking about how little Michael Brown's parents had to be 'thankful' for this year and so I did not feel I had much to be be thankful for either.

Still my wife and I put together a nice dinner with all the fixings, although we cheated and bought a rotisserie chicken from our local grocery store.

Did you have a nice holiday?

BTW, I've quoted you ("Like all oppressed people through-out history, they (black people) realize that a mob can't over-run a cohesive force of well-armed, government supported troops, no matter how poorly trained and disciplined those soldiers may be.&quot on several occasions here, on DailyKos and on FB. Your quote has stuck with me.

[Feral Child]

58. Thanks, KC.

I'm glad that the phrase has been useful to you. It's good to be able to communicate with someone.

We had a decent holiday, nothing too elaborate since there is only the two of us.

I wasn't able to log on to DU for several days; much to angry over the injustice in Fergusen. I refuse to post angry, too much chance of the trolls controlling the dialogue and alerting me into oblivion.

I'll catch you later, friend.

[PosterChild]

29. You are welcome. (nt)

[Odin2005]

19. LOL, whatev.

[PosterChild]

31. Sure, let's LOL...

... why not? That, and a certain amount of puzzlement, is the likely reaction of the general public to protests against holiday shopping.

[Feral Child]

22. Care to elaborate

on why you want to disrespect the protests?

Or are you just another Drive-By Shooter?

[PosterChild]

30. Please see my response (28) above....

... and I would be happy to elaborate further if you have any follow up questions or comments.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=954593

[Bjorn Against]

2. A couple hundred of us got Wal-Mart in St. Paul to lock its doors today.

Wal-Mart doesn't mind large crowds of people trampling each other to get a television set, but bring a couple of hundred peaceful people to shop for higher wages and they lock the doors on their busiest day of the year. I never thought I would have such a great experience going to Wal-Mart on Black Friday.

[Omaha Steve]

3. Enjoy a well deserved cold Grain Belt

That was my brew before I had to give it up.

[Bjorn Against]

5. Thanks, not much of a beer drinker but I will have a margarita

[NutmegYankee]

7. Good job!

[Brigid]

10. And don't tell me, let me guess . . .

No media reports, right?

[Bjorn Against]

11. There were a couple of cameras there but I am not sure which news outlets they were

[Bjorn Against]

12. I did find this one...

http://www.startribune.com/business/284174151.html

It does not mention that they locked the doors, but they did.

[Brigid]

14. But here's what they did mention:

Closely guarded by police on foot, bikes and in squad cars

The article also made a point of saying that thd police moved the protesters along and that many shoppers were unaware of their presence.

[Bjorn Against]

15. I am pretty sure the customers noticed the locked doors and the hundreds of people along the road.

The article is certainly not the best description of what happened, but I know not to expect much from corporate news sources.

There were lots of cops, they were actually more friendly than usual though. It seems cops tend to be more supportive of the protesters at union protests than they are at protests over other issues, they are all union as well so they pretty much let us do everything except go inside the store without hassle.

[Brigid]

16. I get the impression . . .

They were trying to minimize the protest.

[Bjorn Against]

17. Of course, Wal-Mart is a major advertiser of theirs they won't do anything to upset them

[Odin2005]

20. YAY!!!

[daleanime]

76. Good work....

[NutmegYankee]

6. Now this is a smart way to protest.

I couldn't believe the idiocy the other day with a few people advocating stopping highways. Liberals do not endanger peoples lives with a protest, and stopping traffic quite possibly could cause more accidents upstream as traffic slams to a halt. What good is our message if an innocent child is killed in a traffic collision caused by the protest?

[yeoman6987]

18. I agree

Although this might have I intended consequences too. If Black Friday is a bust get ready for pink slips as the CEOs won't take the hit.

[Iamthetruth]

25. They don't care about the people

It's a message they care about and damn the small guy trying to feed his family.

[appalachiablue]

8. For a perfect holiday movie about American consumerism with humor and activism WATCH:

"What Would Jesus Buy" 2006, online, by Rev. Billy and the Church of Stop Shopping. Performance art, activism portrait of Americans at Thanksgiving and Christmas during Black Friday stampedes, burned out Middle America downtowns and ultimate Disneyworld consumerism. Bill Talen, his choir and activists are pure talent on the anti-consumer message of our time.

[riversedge]

13. kick

[enough]

21. k&r (nt)

[Iamthetruth]

24. I wonder how many hourly workers

Will lose their jobs this year due to poor sales from this weekend, which by the way can make or break many retailers. But hey, screw those guys right?

[Travis_0004]

26. I would imagine seasonal employees will be laid off sooner

The bigger impact will be felt even sooner by workers. When protestors shut down the mall, a lot of employees were probably sent home 4 hours early. If the train doesn't run due to protest, some employees miss a day of work.

If you are living paycheck to paycheck that hurts.

[Iamthetruth]

32. Yes

I'm not talking about the Walmart employee, I'm talking about the small business guy who started a business in the mall. But hey, all business owners are bad on this board.

[Live and Learn]

36. Ah yes. I am certain that you really care about the poor and the small businesses.

Sorry you are having to witness such hardships. Hope it doesn't mess up your weekend. Are you taking the yacht our for a spin?

[Iamthetruth]

38. No, it's a 44 foot meridian

Not really a yacht, but it's been winterized so no more boating for now.

But I do care because I am one of those small businessman. How many employees do you employ?

[Live and Learn]

40. Me, none. I am one of the wage slaves.

It seems you are quite happy with the status quo so I really don't expect your support for any movements.

Is yours really a small business by any real definition of the term? If so, you really should be concerned about the way things are going.

[Iamthetruth]

41. I am

I own a small real estate advisory firm, my average employee makes six figures. I'm not concerned for them at all. I am concerned for my brother who owns a Jimmy johns franchise that would go bankrupt if he had to pay his high school age employees $15 an hour.

[Live and Learn]

42. Oh my, a Jimmy Johns, seriously?

I don't think you'll find much sympathy for a Jimmy Johns owner here.

[Iamthetruth]

43. Do tell

Let's hear your knowledge.

[Live and Learn]

44. Why not try a simple site search? You might actually learn something from it. nt

[Iamthetruth]

45. That is what I thought

You have nothing.

[Live and Learn]

46. You mean you are really too lazy to do a site search for Jimmy Johns?

What aspect of their unfair worker practices would you like me to explain to you?

I really don't think it worth my typing though since it has all been posted before and someone that thinks $15 is too much to pay workers would probably never understand.

[Iamthetruth]

47. I'm waiting

Please list all those unfair labor practices. You're damn right $15 per hour is too much to pay a 16 year old kid making sandwiches.

[Live and Learn]

48. Already answered in the other thread.

And $15 is not too much. It is simply what the minimum wage should be if it kept up with inflation. Perhaps your wage is the one that is too much.

[Iamthetruth]

49. You mean

Where the Huffington Post said not one instance hS the non compete been enforced?

No way a 16 year old kid should make $31,200 a year, more than the salary for a Sargeant in the army. You can't be serious.

[Live and Learn]

50. Perhaps the army should pay a bit better too.

But you think it is fair that you make so much, right?

They have no right to make them sign the pledge. Do they state on the pledge that it won't be enforced? Don't be ridiculous.

[Iamthetruth]

54. It's simple really

A contact is unenforceable if you are under 18, so I am certain most of them don't sign them because they never see them. Do I think it's fair, no because I know 99% of non competes are unenforceable. Non impetus are more for someone who has access to sencative I formation that the company owns or someone in sales who could take clients when they leave.

As for how much money I make, you better believe it's fair. I make what I bring in. There have been years that I made below $25,000 and other years that have been better. I'm not guaranteed to make anything so the risk is on my side. The key word there is RISK.

[Live and Learn]

57. So risk is the operative word here. You think those willing to gamble deserve riches

while those of us that think gambling is not such a good thing don't?

You never answered the question as to why they are forcing people to sign contracts that you yourself (and i tend to agree) are unenforceable. You don't see anything wrong with that?

[NobodyHere]

52. A Sargeant also gets BAH and BAS

which bumps his paycheck by about $15000 or more.

[Iamthetruth]

55. And a sargeant also is not

Under the age of 18 or going to college.

[Live and Learn]

56. And college costs a hell of a lot these days. nt