Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
Mon May 16, 2016, 12:50 PM May 2016

Hereís the Thing So Many Americans Canít Grasp About Bernie Sanders

Here’s the Thing So Many Americans Can’t Grasp About Bernie Sanders

The U.S. likes to brand itself 'the land of opportunity'—yet our poster boys for innovation go to Harvard

By Pete Ross • 04/25/16 2:30pm

Watching this year’s presidential nomination process from Australia has been a very interesting affair. I can’t say I’ve followed every single speech or piece of news, but I’ve certainly kept abreast of what is going on and have seen plenty of articles and commentary from people on my feed putting their opinions forward. What interests me the most are the people and media pundits who emphatically denounce Bernie Sanders and his supporters. The reasons all generally boil down to the fact that he is the reincarnation of Karl Marx and he wants to turn the U.S. into a communist state. That he is so far left of centre that he’s basically off the chart.

For those people, here’s a reality check.

Around the rest of the world, Mr. Sanders represents a point on the political spectrum that is mildly left of centre. His “wacky” ideas of free (and we’ll get to that term a bit later) education, free healthcare, regulating banks and corporations and so on are all actually staple ideas of many of the happiest and most prosperous countries in the world. Don’t believe me? Take a look at the happiest countries in the world index for 2016. The U.S. doesn’t make the top 10—but almost every single country that does has the kind of policies Mr. Sanders is promoting at some level. Looking at the other candidates, Hillary Clinton would in most countries be considered right of centre, not left. Donald and Ted? Man, those guys are so far right of centre you couldn’t plot where they exist—they’re pretty much off the spectrum.

But back to Bernie. Throughout the nomination process, Bernie’s critics always seem to be asking the wrong questions. The most common one I see is “how is he going to pay for all of this?” This question misses the point entirely. Even if economists say that he can’t, does that really invalidate everything he’s aiming to achieve? If he can’t pay for all of it and the only thing that actually gets passed is universal college education and a reinstatement of Glass-Steagall, is that such a horrible thing? Why does it have to be so all or nothing? That’s why it also baffles me when people say that they don’t want the kind of revolution Mr. Sanders is pushing—the reality is that even if he is swept to victory, the amount of change he’ll actually be able to implement won’t be half of what he wants to do.

Continued at:

http://observer.com/2016/04/heres-the-thing-so-many-americans-cant-grasp-about-bernie-sanders/

118 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Hereís the Thing So Many Americans Canít Grasp About Bernie Sanders (Original Post) KoKo May 2016 OP
Thank you. This bears repeating: NewImproved Deal May 2016 #1
She does have the super delegates wallyworld2 May 2016 #14
Thank you! This should be in it's own thread zentrum May 2016 #24
What do Hillary supporters have to say about this travesty? chwaliszewski May 2016 #41
That the source here is Trump's son-in-law's (Jared Kushner's) "Observer" and everything it says pnwmom May 2016 #52
Wiki list of Democratic Party Super Delegates wallyworld2 May 2016 #55
So? n/t pnwmom May 2016 #57
It's still the primary wallyworld2 May 2016 #62
The vast majority of super delegates are Democratic officeholders. And all the super delegates pnwmom May 2016 #63
where did wallyworld2 May 2016 #64
. . . pnwmom May 2016 #66
I suppose wallyworld2 May 2016 #67
719 / 4766 = 15.08602601762484% baldguy May 2016 #84
you really need to wallyworld2 May 2016 #99
and you really need to baldguy May 2016 #118
+1 Gman May 2016 #102
Lots of lobbyists- Bluntly the whole SD system is INSANELY UNDEMOCRATIC- Baobab May 2016 #114
Anyone who was an astute OBSERVER knows that Trump's son-in-law's rag is suitable for MADem May 2016 #56
Stick to the issue NJCher May 2016 #71
The issue is the OBSERVER is run by DONALD TRUMP's son-in-law, and anything published in it MADem May 2016 #73
Wrong again NJCher May 2016 #74
Consider the SOURCE..... MADem May 2016 #75
I'm going by what is taught in higher ed NJCher May 2016 #80
Thanks for the post. I myself have been guilty of declaiming about Bohunk68 May 2016 #81
She Can't do that Gore1FL May 2016 #101
It doesn't make FlaGranny May 2016 #108
Usually, Bernie Bros are vicious, sexist and racist, etc. Bernie needs to go away because Feeling the Bern May 2016 #60
They say it will not influence Hillary's decision making. Enthusiast May 2016 #86
Sickening. Arugula Latte May 2016 #45
Separate thread I agree. Most informative about the revolting characters appalachiablue May 2016 #49
Please make a separate thread with this very picture... chwaliszewski May 2016 #68
That's absolutely disgusting. It really should be its own OP. closeupready May 2016 #104
DUH puffy socks May 2016 #26
There is something ghoulish about for-profit health insurance JDPriestly May 2016 #70
I still don't get how people can be happy we now have a mandated system by which truedelphi May 2016 #76
I'm on Medicare. It's great so far although I nearly got into the doughnut hole on JDPriestly May 2016 #113
By January of next year, I will be on Medicare. truedelphi May 2016 #115
"Should we bind for-profit insurance companies to the Hippocratic oath?" Enthusiast May 2016 #87
Thanks. I should have used a sarcasm tag. Thanks for making it clear. JDPriestly May 2016 #111
DLC/New Dems are to the right of Richard Nixon and even Reagan on some issues. yurbud May 2016 #117
actually, I don't think if you looked at the entire world Sanders would be mildly left of centre Fresh_Start May 2016 #2
Obama is not left of center. You don't have to take my word for it ... Scuba May 2016 #3
The operative part of Obama's statement...is back in the 1980s. Fresh_Start May 2016 #4
The report you're referring to was not an honest assessment ... Scuba May 2016 #7
+ a whole bunch for the "consider this" part. nt Lucky Luciano May 2016 #16
The problem being puffy socks May 2016 #28
Dishonest assessments abound because they were created to protect an undeserved Enthusiast May 2016 #90
Well done! Enthusiast May 2016 #89
Nice Republican talking points newthinking May 2016 #40
Huge +1! Enthusiast May 2016 #91
Agree. ananda May 2016 #11
Obama is left of center? Dyedinthewoolliberal May 2016 #38
Around the rest of the world, Mr. Sanders represents a point on the political spectrum that is mildl Fresh_Start May 2016 #39
You maybe right on where the voter is today rpannier May 2016 #65
They are only successful at winning because Republicans vote in midterms while Enthusiast May 2016 #92
That is untrue. Enthusiast May 2016 #88
America Has Moved Right after a Massive Investment McKim May 2016 #5
The propaganda we've been fed beltanefauve May 2016 #13
Social Darwinism has made a comeback. Feeling the Bern May 2016 #59
Agreed lastone May 2016 #19
The reality. appalachiablue May 2016 #50
I can't grasp the fact that Cryptoad May 2016 #6
count past 2000 AlbertCat May 2016 #25
If what that writer says is true, then Bernie has failed in getting his message to ... NurseJackie May 2016 #8
The media has blacked him out. OwlinAZ May 2016 #9
Indeed. tosh May 2016 #12
It may take a revolution to course correct WHEN CRABS ROAR May 2016 #27
No they haven't. NurseJackie May 2016 #20
Yeah, really. How dare he stay on message anyway? mac56 May 2016 #22
That man has stayed on message since he entered college. WHEN CRABS ROAR May 2016 #30
+1 appalachiablue May 2016 #46
he says the same thing every time. AlbertCat May 2016 #31
Whatever is polling well this week is Hillary's position. bvar22 May 2016 #116
They have certainly FlaGranny May 2016 #110
If he can't convince Democrats... Beowulf May 2016 #29
Clearly, not enough people are voting for him. NurseJackie May 2016 #32
Sacrifice principles to the lowest common denominator. Gotcha! Feeling the Bern May 2016 #61
The unfortuante reality is that most voters hold "we can't have nice things." Scootaloo May 2016 #36
This piece was published in the Observer, which is owned by Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner. pnwmom May 2016 #53
It is because maindawg May 2016 #10
^ A post for our times. forest444 May 2016 #23
It's just not America that's being held hostage WHEN CRABS ROAR May 2016 #34
Accuracy! Enthusiast May 2016 #93
Pretty much. closeupready May 2016 #109
K&R mountain grammy May 2016 #15
Hillary Clinton would in most countries be considered right of centre, not left.... No shit. RATM435 May 2016 #17
That's what I was thinking, "No shit!" Enthusiast May 2016 #94
"Where to invade next" Michael Moore's movie Mira May 2016 #18
EVERYONE SHOULD Buy The CD, It's Quite An Eye-Opener... ChiciB1 May 2016 #44
Move On is now offering the DVD for a $27 donation thanks to Michael Moore appalachiablue May 2016 #47
Do you think Hillary stole three million votes? creeksneakers2 May 2016 #54
I Think There's Been SOOOOOOOO Much OBFUSCATION Going On ChiciB1 May 2016 #112
The same thing is happening now. This is the most critical election of my life and they're cheating. Enthusiast May 2016 #95
Aim left is like a variation of aim high IronLionZion May 2016 #21
This^ AlbertCat May 2016 #33
The elected compromisers get it all too well. They know exactly what they are doing. stillwaiting May 2016 #37
Thanks, KoKo ReRe May 2016 #35
Huge +1! Enthusiast May 2016 #96
Thanks for expressing this clearly. ozone_man May 2016 #42
THANK YOU KoKo For Posting This, It's What I've Been Hearing From ChiciB1 May 2016 #43
K&R Paka May 2016 #48
The reason Americans are so clueless is because we have a media dedicated to misinformation. Enthusiast May 2016 #97
You are being played. The Observer, your source, is owned by Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law pnwmom May 2016 #51
How are we being played by an accurate article, pray tell? Hydra May 2016 #58
Played isn't the right word JustAnotherGen May 2016 #77
As much as I cringed when it happens, Pat Buchanan was right on occasion Hydra May 2016 #103
I've read quite a few of his books JustAnotherGen May 2016 #106
k & r . must read for encounters of the hopemountain May 2016 #69
No, nothing in the Observer is a must read. SunSeeker May 2016 #72
American exceptionalism. Exceptionally dumb that is. Especially about how it is in the rest of the highprincipleswork May 2016 #78
I'm filing this one under "Reality Check". nt silvershadow May 2016 #79
We are ALREADY PAYINF for universal health care. We just aren't GETTING it. n/t eridani May 2016 #82
Huge +1! Enthusiast May 2016 #98
I've grasped him and still don't like him. leftofcool May 2016 #83
+100. (nt) Paladin May 2016 #100
K&R! This post deserves hundreds of recommendations. nt Enthusiast May 2016 #85
Anything Bernie can do will be a good start. Much of what he's proposing has worked well in this brewens May 2016 #105
political compass has hill PatrynXX May 2016 #107
 

NewImproved Deal

(534 posts)
1. Thank you. This bears repeating:
Mon May 16, 2016, 12:53 PM
May 2016

"Take a look at the happiest countries in the world index for 2016. The U.S. doesn’t make the top 10—but almost every single country that does has the kind of policies Mr. Sanders is promoting at some level. Looking at the other candidates, Hillary Clinton would in most countries be considered right of centre, not left.

From Goldwater Girl to Goldman Sachs--behold the Rainbow Oligarchy...

pnwmom

(108,871 posts)
52. That the source here is Trump's son-in-law's (Jared Kushner's) "Observer" and everything it says
Mon May 16, 2016, 10:52 PM
May 2016

is in the service of helping Trump's run for President.

wallyworld2

(375 posts)
62. It's still the primary
Mon May 16, 2016, 11:53 PM
May 2016

You need to get out of the general election mode

She's still running against Senator Sanders in the current ongoing primaries

Senator Sanders is being supported by Democratic working people, who are daily being taken advantage of, by people who are represented by lobbyists/super delegates.

Those lobbyists/super delegates do not have Democratic voters at heart.

They have their employers interests at heart

Democratic voters need to know this and keep this in mind during the upcoming primaries.

Like in Oregon and Kentucky tomorrow

pnwmom

(108,871 posts)
63. The vast majority of super delegates are Democratic officeholders. And all the super delegates
Mon May 16, 2016, 11:56 PM
May 2016

put together comprise only 15% of the delegates.

Bernie would be far behind now even if there were ZERO super delegates, because his wins were almost all in low-population states.

Super delegates are not his problem.

wallyworld2

(375 posts)
64. where did
Tue May 17, 2016, 12:04 AM
May 2016

you get that 15% number?

Super delegates are hills problem

It's who they are and what they represent

They don't represent the will of the people

They represent the establishment, business as usual class

They tell Democratic voter their votes don't matter if they don't vote the 'right' way

pnwmom

(108,871 posts)
66. . . .
Tue May 17, 2016, 12:06 AM
May 2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Democratic_Party_superdelegates,_2016

This list tracks current support for given candidates among the 719 unpledged delegates (commonly known as superdelegates) who will cast a vote at the 2016 Democratic National Convention, to be held July 25–28 in Philadelphia.[1] The 8 unpledged delegates from Democrats Abroad carry half-votes at the convention, yielding a total of 715 votes.[2] Unpledged delegates represent about 15% of the overall convention votes (4,770 delegates, 4,766 votes) and come from several categories of prominent Democratic Party members:

438 elected members (with 434 votes) from the Democratic National Committee (including the chairs and vice-chairs of each state's Democratic Party)

20 distinguished party leaders (DPL), consisting of current and former presidents, current and former vice-presidents, former congressional leaders, and former DNC chairs

193 Democratic members of the United States House of Representatives (including non-voting delegates from DC and territories)

47 Democratic members of the United States Senate (including Washington, DC shadow senators)

21 Democratic governors (including territorial governors and the Mayor of the District of Columbia).
 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
84. 719 / 4766 = 15.08602601762484%
Tue May 17, 2016, 06:06 AM
May 2016

In answer to your question "where did you get that 15% number?"

It's called "math".

MADem

(135,425 posts)
56. Anyone who was an astute OBSERVER knows that Trump's son-in-law's rag is suitable for
Mon May 16, 2016, 11:32 PM
May 2016

wiping one's ass in a pinch, and little more.

I can't BELIEVE the poster brought this wingnutty source here with a straight face.

It's like the fall of Rome! Desperate times! Fling anything against the wall! Partner with Trumpians!

NJCher

(35,132 posts)
71. Stick to the issue
Tue May 17, 2016, 02:07 AM
May 2016

You're condemning thoughts when you should be dealing with the issues raised in the article.
Cher

MADem

(135,425 posts)
73. The issue is the OBSERVER is run by DONALD TRUMP's son-in-law, and anything published in it
Tue May 17, 2016, 02:24 AM
May 2016

Last edited Tue May 17, 2016, 03:06 AM - Edit history (1)

that casts any political opponent to DONALD TRUMP in anything approaching a negative (or freakishly positive) light is SUSPECT.

That IS the issue.

Shall I bring crap from STORMFRONT over here, so we can discuss "the issues raised in the article?"

Please--you know better than that. One of the "issues" that always needs to be considered is THE SOURCE.

NJCher

(35,132 posts)
74. Wrong again
Tue May 17, 2016, 03:06 AM
May 2016

The issues are the thoughts posted in the article. If you want to discuss the publication, start a thread on the publication. This is basic critical thinking that you should have learned in high school.

Want to discuss stormfront? Go start your own thread.

Stop this kind of broad strokes thinking. You are taking the level of discussion to third grade.


Cher

MADem

(135,425 posts)
75. Consider the SOURCE.....
Tue May 17, 2016, 03:10 AM
May 2016

You can insist that I'm wrong, but I'm not.

"Basic critical thinking" tells you that if your enemy is trolling you, they don't have your best interests at heart.


Why you think it makes sense to take their bait is beyond me.

That's not "Third Grade" discussion--it's POLITICS 101.


The Observer is The Donald's Stormfront. Capisce?

NJCher

(35,132 posts)
80. I'm going by what is taught in higher ed
Tue May 17, 2016, 05:06 AM
May 2016

Because that's what I do. First you look at the claim. The source is considered. but one does not make a decision about credibility solely on the source. Think about what kind of thinking would result if we just categorically discarded a written piece based on where it was published. It would result in black/white thinking. By your line of thinking, everything published by X newspaper would be bad or good. No one should have to tell you this! This is basic reasoning. As an example, there's some very good material in the NY Times, and there's some very biased material in the NY Times.

Sorry, you're going to have to work a lot harder than what you'd like. What you're doing is thinking peripherally when you need to think centrally. You can read up on this communication theory; it's called elaboration likelihood.

Another thinking error you're committing is found in cognitive dissonance theory. You are having a hard time believing that a source you don't consider credible might publish some valid points. You seek dissonance reduction because it doesn't add up to you. Again, that's the lazy way out.

Now, why did I go to all this trouble to write this out when I know you'll just shrug it off? Nothing will change your thinking. It's because you and quite a number of other people on this board are making these errors on a regular basis. I will just cut and paste this post every time I see it.

Be aware that there are thinking people here and you're not convincing (or impressing) anyone with your grade school level line of reasoning.


Cher

Bohunk68

(1,364 posts)
81. Thanks for the post. I myself have been guilty of declaiming about
Tue May 17, 2016, 05:33 AM
May 2016

the source. You are quite right, occasionally, there is the stopped clock. Thanks for the reminder. We all need it from time to time lest we forget.

Gore1FL

(20,942 posts)
101. She Can't do that
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:25 AM
May 2016

That poster has fallen a long way in credibility scale since the 2016 primary season. It's all about alert trolling, and being generally nasty now.

FlaGranny

(8,361 posts)
108. It doesn't make
Tue May 17, 2016, 09:36 AM
May 2016

any difference who owns the paper. Every word in that piece is true. Norway, Britain, Germany, Australia, Canada, et al. They have all the things that we can't have. Why can't we have them? Because people have been convinced we can't afford them - us, the richest country in the world, we just can't afford what most other countries do. Also people have been convinced that somehow social programs are communist.

 

Feeling the Bern

(3,839 posts)
60. Usually, Bernie Bros are vicious, sexist and racist, etc. Bernie needs to go away because
Mon May 16, 2016, 11:47 PM
May 2016

he isn't a real democrat. . .love live the queen and if you don't support her, you're a trump person in disguise.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
45. Sickening.
Mon May 16, 2016, 09:26 PM
May 2016

I'm disgusted by the newer breed of "Democrats." They are as bad as the Republicans of yesteryear.

appalachiablue

(40,857 posts)
49. Separate thread I agree. Most informative about the revolting characters
Mon May 16, 2016, 10:24 PM
May 2016

and groups that determine how we live and die.

 

puffy socks

(1,473 posts)
26. DUH
Mon May 16, 2016, 03:50 PM
May 2016

Now name which of these other countries already had a capitalistic system in place and how long did it take them to switch over to the single-payer system and who lost who paid a big price?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
70. There is something ghoulish about for-profit health insurance
Tue May 17, 2016, 01:19 AM
May 2016

and for-profit prisons.

I imagine the person who owns a company that produces a toxic substance that makes people sick for a profit investing in for-profit health insurance and then profiting from that. It probably happens.

How ghoulish.

We used to have not-for-profit private insurance companies. That kind of makes sense. But profiting from health insurance????

Ghoulish. Just ghoulish.

Do health insurance companies make more money when people die quickly? Or less? Is it more profitable to deny care to a patient, to deny tests to a patient?

The moral questions that the concept of for-profit insurance raises baffle me.

Should we bind for-profit insurance companies to the Hippocratic oath?

I think we should. After the doctors whose bills they pay are supposed to obey that oath.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
76. I still don't get how people can be happy we now have a mandated system by which
Tue May 17, 2016, 03:24 AM
May 2016

We consumers are penalized if we don't know our income for the year. (Very hard for most of us small business people to figure out at the beginning of one year what we will make the next.)

And yet the enenties to which we are mandated to pay have basically NO regulations to follow. They can deny this and deny that, and not a single penalty for them. Just for us.

Over the last ten days, the Chronicle in San Francisco has had an extensive article on how difficult it is for small business people and indie contractors to deal with the California Covered version of the ACA. And then a local TV affiliate had a broadcast on about all the many denials that shocked people, who truly thought that once they finally had insurance they would {GASP} be insured and covered and get needed treatments.

Apparently that is not the deal. We consumers can pay, but whether any services are delivered seems to be pretty much up to the Big Insurers.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
113. I'm on Medicare. It's great so far although I nearly got into the doughnut hole on
Tue May 17, 2016, 11:59 AM
May 2016

prescriptions due to a condition that would sound minor to you.

We need a Medicare system for all. I still have a private provider, Kaiser. But my healthcare is automatically paid for. I realize that if we had Medicare for all, the annual rates would rise in some years more than the Medicare rate does.

As I have so often mentioned on DU, I lived in various different European countries due to my husband's work, had two children there and loved the universal, single payer health insurance there.

The system is a little different from country to country and not everything you might want is always covered. There were very small co-pays for medications. But other than that I loved it. It was possible to get special permission for medicines that had not yet been officially approved. We did that for a medicine for one of our daughters. The healthcare was excellent, and dental care was automatically included in our insurance.

That was, granted, years ago, but it shows how the underlying principle of single payer, universal insurance can mean different forms whether non-profit insurance companies or a government company, but work much better than our horrible for-profit insurance.

Thanks for your post.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
115. By January of next year, I will be on Medicare.
Tue May 17, 2016, 03:06 PM
May 2016

Your experience matches what I have noticed with my spouse being on that program, and what friends tell me.

I can't wait til I am on it!

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
87. "Should we bind for-profit insurance companies to the Hippocratic oath?"
Tue May 17, 2016, 06:22 AM
May 2016

No, we should abolish the concept of for-profit health insurance altogether.

Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
2. actually, I don't think if you looked at the entire world Sanders would be mildly left of centre
Mon May 16, 2016, 12:57 PM
May 2016

and in the USA, he is left wing.

Now since I'm very left, I don't think that is definitionally bad.
But I'm not deluded enough to believe its where the American voter is today.

Obama is left of the center in the USA...but in the politic compass, that the bernie supporters post.
Obama is in the upper half of the right quadrant.

take that same chart and make Obama left of center...and you will see that Bernie is very far to the left of the electorate.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
3. Obama is not left of center. You don't have to take my word for it ...
Mon May 16, 2016, 01:23 PM
May 2016
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/272957-obama-says-his-economic-policies-so-mainstream-hed-be-seen-as-moderate-republican-in-1980s

"The truth of the matter is that my policies are so mainstream that if I had set the same policies that I had back in the 1980s, I would be considered a moderate Republican," he told Noticias Univision 23 in a White House interview.



Then there's this ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/03/04/one-study-explains-why-its-tough-to-pass-liberal-laws/

Broockman and Skovron find that legislators consistently believe their constituents are more conservative than they actually are. This includes Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives. But conservative legislators generally overestimate the conservatism of their constituents by 20 points. “This difference is so large that nearly half of conservative politicians appear to believe that they represent a district that is more conservative on these issues than is the most conservative district in the entire country,” Broockman and Skovron write. This finding held up across a range of issues.


Finally ...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/senator-bernie-sanders-policy-platform-presidential-campaign

America's Views Align Surprisingly Well With Those of "Socialist" Bernie Sanders

Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
4. The operative part of Obama's statement...is back in the 1980s.
Mon May 16, 2016, 01:41 PM
May 2016

but its no longer the 1980s

and the surveys on support for liberal goals tend to fall rapidly once those liberal goals are specified in more detail.
There was another OP today...where the information about support for medicare for all...falls rapidly when you explain to people what they will have to sacrifice in order to achieve it...on that OP people didn't like it impacting their taxes...impacting their current health insurance employer sponsored programs...and longer wait times occurred.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
7. The report you're referring to was not an honest assessment ...
Mon May 16, 2016, 02:08 PM
May 2016

... of what people will "have to sacrifice" to achieve, for example, Medicare for All. It was a push-poll full of mis-information.



Consider this: If America was really a center-right country, Repubicans would want everyone to vote.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
90. Dishonest assessments abound because they were created to protect an undeserved
Tue May 17, 2016, 06:41 AM
May 2016

largess for a profit taking parasitical insurance industry. Misinformation is rife! And little wonder. Some people are still claiming "long waiting times" and other, similar health insurance pirate talking points.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
40. Nice Republican talking points
Mon May 16, 2016, 08:30 PM
May 2016

You should do a little more reading and get informed:


Debunking Canadian health care myths

By Rhonda Hackett
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12523427

ananda

(28,691 posts)
11. Agree.
Mon May 16, 2016, 02:35 PM
May 2016

Obama is right of center economically and foreign-policy wise.

He is slightly left of center socially.

Dyedinthewoolliberal

(15,392 posts)
38. Obama is left of center?
Mon May 16, 2016, 04:50 PM
May 2016

I don't see him that way. I say that 'cause I'm left of center and he's not even close to me! So no, Mr. Obama is a centrist and a moderate and that is not a bad thing, but he's not left of center. However I'm old and my definition of both left and center may be different from yours...

Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
39. Around the rest of the world, Mr. Sanders represents a point on the political spectrum that is mildl
Mon May 16, 2016, 04:57 PM
May 2016

I don't believe Obama is right of center when you include Asia and Africa... or eastern Europe for that matter.

If the post had compared to the subset of countries which are in fact liberal..maybe he'd be accurate.
But not when you compare the the rest of the world.

rpannier

(24,246 posts)
65. You maybe right on where the voter is today
Tue May 17, 2016, 12:05 AM
May 2016

But, if you go back to 1978, Paul Wolfowitz, then working for Senator Henry Jackson (D-WA) said, "Americans are conservative socially, but liberal economically."
The economics changed and were pushed along by the Reagan Administration, aided by a team of strategists that sold those policies
It takes a President/Governor willing to push the agenda and fighting for it
Having been to talks given by Richard Viguerie, the man who helped usher in Jerry Falwell, who was a strategist for Reagan in 1980, Bush I in 88 and the younger Bush in 2000, I would argue that it is political malpractice at this point not to seize the moment.
The President, for all the good things he has done, lost the momentum from the beginning by not being more aggressive in policy pursuits and defending his positions

on edit: Viguerie's strategies are still used by Republicans running for office today. Most Republican governor's use his strategies and philosophies.
I would argue it's why they are successful at winning and holding on even in less friendly environment

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
92. They are only successful at winning because Republicans vote in midterms while
Tue May 17, 2016, 06:48 AM
May 2016

Democrats stay home. Look at the voter turnout records. Additionally the entire media is united in protecting the status quo.

He isn't right about where the voter is today. His is a right wing bullshit talking point. It's a fucking shame we have to read it on DU.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
88. That is untrue.
Tue May 17, 2016, 06:29 AM
May 2016

Bernie is not very far to the left of the electorate.

On the issues Bernie is centrist. A majority of the American people want single payer. A majority of the American people want Wall Street abuse reined in and want a new Glass Steagal. A majority of the American people want the wealthy to pay more in taxes. Bernie is dead center and no amount of claiming he is some radical leftist will change that.

McKim

(2,412 posts)
5. America Has Moved Right after a Massive Investment
Mon May 16, 2016, 01:48 PM
May 2016

America has moved to the Right after a massive investment by the Right in think tanks, newspapers, media, and through churches, universities and other institutions which it has infiltrated. The loudspeakers have been out for decades blasting right ideology and alternative news, ideas and institutionsof The Left have been squashed and attacked endlessly. The result is that Public opinion has been massively impacted and you see the effects of this reflected in the electorate. This how Trump has come to own such unearned power. Most regrettably, the drumbeat of No New Taxes has been sold to the Working Class as they have been carrying a large tax burden that formerly fell to the wealthy. Unfortunately money talks and money walks here.

beltanefauve

(1,784 posts)
13. The propaganda we've been fed
Mon May 16, 2016, 02:37 PM
May 2016

dictates that we admire the rich (regardless of how they got there ) and aspire to be like them. And if we're not making it, well, that's our fault.

 

lastone

(588 posts)
19. Agreed
Mon May 16, 2016, 03:15 PM
May 2016

Last edited Mon May 16, 2016, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)

The right has been hijacking the institutions you've named for years, all the while undermining anything even slightly left of "center", which is right anyway.

Sanders is the only candidate that is not a conservative / corp shill.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
8. If what that writer says is true, then Bernie has failed in getting his message to ...
Mon May 16, 2016, 02:22 PM
May 2016

... resonate in a believable and realistic way with enough voters. If he can't convince Democrats that he's the best choice, he'd have a very difficult time in convincing everyone else. The "system" and critics that challenge him during the primary process would only get worse during the general election. Rather than blaming voters, the candidate and his supporters should be a bit more reflective and look within and acknowledge his (and their) faults and shortcomings ... figure out what was successful and build on that ... admit what failed and improve on that. Weak candidates blame the media, the system, red-states, Confederate states, and "dumb voters".

WHEN CRABS ROAR

(3,813 posts)
27. It may take a revolution to course correct
Mon May 16, 2016, 03:51 PM
May 2016

We have been lied to for so long.

How can someone paying ten thousand dollars a year for health care complain about paying two thousand more in taxes while saving eight thousand a year under universal health care. Do the math.

And we're not even talking about how much cheaper and simpler it will be for businesses to deal with it, you would think that they would be all for it, it would show up as a deduction on the employee's paycheck and that would be that. No more of the employer looking to find the cheaper health care plan.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
20. No they haven't.
Mon May 16, 2016, 03:20 PM
May 2016

He's getting a free ride. If they fail to cover his every appearance, it's because he says the same thing every time. Nothing new nothing newsworthy. That's his fault.

WHEN CRABS ROAR

(3,813 posts)
30. That man has stayed on message since he entered college.
Mon May 16, 2016, 03:56 PM
May 2016

I'm the same age as him and we have been singing the same song together.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
31. he says the same thing every time.
Mon May 16, 2016, 04:02 PM
May 2016

What has Hillary said this week?

Does anyone remember?


Is it the complete opposite of last week?





Maybe Sanders should compare schlongs with Trump? Or talk about being under sniper fire?

Then he'd get on the news.

He draws huge crowds and it's not reported on the news. Anyone who thinks he's gotten equal or even his fair share of coverage is delusional.

FlaGranny

(8,361 posts)
110. They have certainly
Tue May 17, 2016, 09:50 AM
May 2016

ignored him for the first 8 or 9 months of his campaign, while talking up Trump 24/7 and Clinton about 1/5th or less than Trump's time, and Sanders on occasion. Most of the country had no idea who he was and he certainly did not get "known" until the last few months. 100 percent of that is the fault of the media's kowtowing to Donald Trump first and ignoring Sanders because, of course, Clinton was certain to be the Democratic nominee.

Beowulf

(761 posts)
29. If he can't convince Democrats...
Mon May 16, 2016, 03:54 PM
May 2016

The Democratic elite soil themselves when encountering a true progressive. The Clinton wing of the party came into existence to render progressives inconsequential in the Party.

People really need to give Thomas Frank's latest book a serious read.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
32. Clearly, not enough people are voting for him.
Mon May 16, 2016, 04:02 PM
May 2016

His message and promises do appeal to many ... just not enough to overtake Hillary in the primary. He and his supporters need to adjust the message, or adjust their expectations (neither of which seems likely at this late date.)

Oh well. Lessons learned ... maybe.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
36. The unfortuante reality is that most voters hold "we can't have nice things."
Mon May 16, 2016, 04:22 PM
May 2016

And if a candidate comes along proposing that we get nice things, he's decried as a shyster. You ought to know Jackie, you've been at the vanguard of calling Sanders sneaky and deceitful.

It's not "the voters' fault," but to ignore the impact of propaganda on the way people think and view the world is to ignore reality. If propaganda didn't work, you would never see a commercial on TV.

pnwmom

(108,871 posts)
53. This piece was published in the Observer, which is owned by Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner.
Mon May 16, 2016, 10:53 PM
May 2016

The editor is a Rudy Guiliani henchman.

Need I say more?

 

maindawg

(1,151 posts)
10. It is because
Mon May 16, 2016, 02:25 PM
May 2016

Our media is nothing but a propaganda ministry. And there are no reporters any longer. Only syncopants who sing the company songs. Now that the demon er Donald has captured the GOP the evil oligarchs are all up in their right whiteys some are sceeming to incorporate the deom er donald into their own evil plans wondering if he will behave worrying he won't. Some are seeking to unseat him and I am sure there is some deep evil who would do harm to demon er Donald trump.
It's all very ugly here in America these days. Since the president has done such a good job with zero scandals the GOP has lost its mind. They need those scandals to divert attention away from their criminal behaviour. Because they are all criminals. Hillary , Bill ,the demon er Donald, the drug his sidekick dick , condi and colon. They are all very rich criminals . American is being held hostage by a criminal cabal that controls the Government completely including the CIA along with many other criminals and secret police all over the world . It's a big club and you and I ain't in it. Bernie ain't in it either. It's 10 times deeper and worse than your worst fears. It Orwelian and it's real.
Enjoy the last days my friend .

forest444

(5,902 posts)
23. ^ A post for our times.
Mon May 16, 2016, 03:38 PM
May 2016

Thank you for that, maindawg. We can only hope enough people see our current state of affairs for what it is before that last sentence comes true.

WHEN CRABS ROAR

(3,813 posts)
34. It's just not America that's being held hostage
Mon May 16, 2016, 04:06 PM
May 2016

but the entire world economy and population.

It's sad to see it come to this and not voting is not a solution.

ChiciB1

(15,435 posts)
44. EVERYONE SHOULD Buy The CD, It's Quite An Eye-Opener...
Mon May 16, 2016, 09:03 PM
May 2016

We keep hearing that Hillary has XXXXX more votes, but unfortunately there's too many questions about whether those votes were gotten legally or not.

Keep spouting the numbers, it's going to take a long time to find the truth, but as it was back in 2000 when BUSH REALLY DIDN'T win the same thing seems to be happening now.

appalachiablue

(40,857 posts)
47. Move On is now offering the DVD for a $27 donation thanks to Michael Moore
Mon May 16, 2016, 10:13 PM
May 2016

who mentioned it on Bill Maher last Friday. Heard of it of course and just received an email from him/them who got my name so I finally ordered it yesterday. Can't wait to see it; and I still like hard copies for some media.

Tommy Frank's Listen Liberal! should be required reading like many other greats, Naomi Klein, Hartmann, Zinn, Carson, Sinclair, Lewis and more.

ChiciB1

(15,435 posts)
112. I Think There's Been SOOOOOOOO Much OBFUSCATION Going On
Tue May 17, 2016, 11:57 AM
May 2016

that it's left far too many people seriously DOUBTING whether their votes have ACTUALLY been counted, and IF they did actually get counted did A MACHINE spit it out the way a voter actually voted????

Then add the fact that SUPER DELEGATES pledged for Hillary BEFORE we knew about ANY OTHER PERSON decided to become a candidate! The unfairness of this situation has made far too many people feeling that supporting anyone other than her was going to be a monumental trek up a mountain. BUT, there HAS been an opponent and one who has captured such immense support, extremely large ENERGETIC crowds at his rallies and we see THIS DEMOCRATIC PARTY do everything they can to stop him that it's created serious suspicion about REAL FAIRNESS being applied!

Has she done this alone? Of course not! When a person pledges before any vote was cast it's not a stretch to think that they also have their own agenda.

No, don't know HOW but I know I'm not alone in thinking this way. This election has opened the eyes of MILLIONS of people and there's a real feeling that we're being force fed something WE DON'T WANT!

This can't all be INCOMPETENCE or machine failure and if it is so much damage has been done that's it's hard to BELIEVE she has actually gotten these votes fairly.

I honestly believe this and I'm not happy that I have so little faith in our system, so I'm kind of infuriated that I find myself feeling this way. I didn't create this mess, but it is a mess!

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
95. The same thing is happening now. This is the most critical election of my life and they're cheating.
Tue May 17, 2016, 06:54 AM
May 2016

They're cheating to such an extent that the media could expose it all but not a peep is heard.

IronLionZion

(44,994 posts)
21. Aim left is like a variation of aim high
Mon May 16, 2016, 03:29 PM
May 2016

the goals have to be ambitiously liberal, because even if we don't get all of it, we will end up miles ahead of where we were before.

This is what many compromises don't get. We shouldn't start by compromising. We should start with aiming for the good stuff and see how far we get.


stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
37. The elected compromisers get it all too well. They know exactly what they are doing.
Mon May 16, 2016, 04:38 PM
May 2016

Occam's razor.

When they give up so much before the bargaining even begins it ensures that PROGRESSIVE legislation will be blocked.

Just like they want it to be blocked.

I just can not believe that these ambitious individuals don't understand the art of negotiating. They are highly educated individuals. They know.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
35. Thanks, KoKo
Mon May 16, 2016, 04:21 PM
May 2016
K&R

I wish everyone would read this article all the way through. We've been beaten down so far in this country, it's difficult to make any sense out of anything anymore. Common sense is what this article is about. Common sense. We need to open our eyes and think

Open eyes and read this message from Australia!

ozone_man

(4,825 posts)
42. Thanks for expressing this clearly.
Mon May 16, 2016, 08:48 PM
May 2016

This is the essence of what Bernie stands for. The basic human needs for a healthy society. He gets attacked for this, and within the Democratic Party. We have have to change that, to take back what was once a party built on the same ideals that Bernie represents.

ChiciB1

(15,435 posts)
43. THANK YOU KoKo For Posting This, It's What I've Been Hearing From
Mon May 16, 2016, 08:56 PM
May 2016

my friends in other countries too! I belong to a group that's made up of many nationalities and this is exactly what I've heard from them, but some are from countries that offer their citizens even MORE! And they call it Democratic Socialism! Go Figure!

This country has LOST IT'S LUSTER for so many, but because of TPTB have so much control too many people can't see the forest for the trees! Their feet are stuck in cement and they're willing to fall in line AS THEY'RE EXPECTED to do by a Democratic Party that's pretty much Repub LITE! And who knows how much further they're willing to go to keep our voices from being heard!

As long as they can keep fooling so many they will NEVER find ANY NEED to change! The status quo is what they want and they're more than willing to throw those of us who support Bernie out with yesterday's trash!

What they don't realize is that after this November SHOULD HILLARY WIN and that's doubtful right now, the Party will lose many people who have been Democrats all their voting life! I've never been anything but a Democrat for about 40 years and this election is the last one that I'll be able to fall on my sword to vote for someone I simply don't trust or believe in.

Thanks again, just too bad that other countries are able to clearly see what so many in this THIS COUNTRY are unwilling to even look at!

Paka

(2,760 posts)
48. K&R
Mon May 16, 2016, 10:15 PM
May 2016

I live outside the US and travel a lot so I meet a cross-section of foreigners, and it does baffle them how Americans can be so clueless.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
97. The reason Americans are so clueless is because we have a media dedicated to misinformation.
Tue May 17, 2016, 06:59 AM
May 2016

It really is that simple. Foreigners wouldn't believe how bad our media is.

pnwmom

(108,871 posts)
51. You are being played. The Observer, your source, is owned by Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law
Mon May 16, 2016, 10:50 PM
May 2016

and the editor is a Rudy Guiliani henchman.

Trump wants Bernie to run third party to increase Trump's chances of winning the general.

Everything positive about Bernie in the Observer is being written toward this end.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
58. How are we being played by an accurate article, pray tell?
Mon May 16, 2016, 11:36 PM
May 2016

Does Hillary really have nothing she is willing to offer the left?

JustAnotherGen

(31,468 posts)
77. Played isn't the right word
Tue May 17, 2016, 03:28 AM
May 2016

Jared Kushner is the uber wealthy husband of Ivanka Trump. She is Donald Trump's daughter. If Sanders is victorious - this op article/Observer - puts Jared Kushner's opinions of Sanders on the table as valid - they won't be because he (Kushner) is against us. Some of us are disgusted by all things Trump - and Kushner's Observer is one of those things.

It might as well be written by Pat Buchanan.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
103. As much as I cringed when it happens, Pat Buchanan was right on occasion
Tue May 17, 2016, 08:42 AM
May 2016

I took it as a sign of how bad things had become that he was an occasional voice of reason.

The truth should never be shied away from, no matter the source.

JustAnotherGen

(31,468 posts)
106. I've read quite a few of his books
Tue May 17, 2016, 09:29 AM
May 2016

State of Emergency? I took with a grain of salt - and considered the source. It's almost as if Donald Trump lifted it 'word for word' with talk of invasions by brown hordes.

I've never 'bought' one of his books though - only out of the library.

In the meantime - I refuse to give one click to a Trump publication.

And truth at DU? Well - that's sorely lacking. This site can't handle the fact that the vast majority of black folks aren't on welfare, many of us are well educated, and many of us do indeed want to hold onto what we have. Even if it means poor white racists supporting Trump and their little brats go without.



SunSeeker

(51,045 posts)
72. No, nothing in the Observer is a must read.
Tue May 17, 2016, 02:20 AM
May 2016

This piece was published in the Observer, which is owned by Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner.

The editor is a Rudy Guiliani henchman. 

The piece is pushing a Sanders third party run to help Trump. You are being played.

 

highprincipleswork

(3,111 posts)
78. American exceptionalism. Exceptionally dumb that is. Especially about how it is in the rest of the
Tue May 17, 2016, 03:52 AM
May 2016

world.

And for all of you who say "we are being played", "play this!!!!!!!"

Your one defense is to criticize the messenger, no matter how accurate the message is. You really should get a life.

brewens

(13,197 posts)
105. Anything Bernie can do will be a good start. Much of what he's proposing has worked well in this
Tue May 17, 2016, 09:21 AM
May 2016

country before. We used to do better with health care too. Too many people were left out, but a lot of us had a way better deal with our health insurance than we do now. Anything like Glass Steagle and no college tuition that was fine for decades in the past has to be possible now.

PatrynXX

(5,668 posts)
107. political compass has hill
Tue May 17, 2016, 09:33 AM
May 2016

right in their area but is the one just a tad to the left what is the difference is she's less Authoritarian than the Repukes running. Provided Political Compass takes Donald Trump at his word. I don't. Bernie is way across that middle line (forgot got what one is X or Y )

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Editorials & Other Articles»Hereís the Thing So Many ...