ismnotwasm
(42,674 posts)The ones promoting her "hawkishness" was amoungst the most purely sexist determinations. A man would not have been judged tat way. In fact, men were not judged that way.
forgotmylogin
(7,952 posts)under any other circumstances.
drray23
(8,754 posts)if she had been too "dovish" she would have been accused on not being tough enough to be the commander im chief. Dammed if you do, dammed if you dont.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)KitSileya
(4,035 posts)Those who are more akin to racist, misogynist Trump voters in that they wanted to only focus on the white (male) working class and their issues were also never going to support her no matter what. Doesn't matter that she had the best (most realistic!) policies for the working class, for raising the minimum wage, for giving people a chance to go to college without crushing debt - since she insisted on listening to all of the working class, not just white men, she was anathema to them. All they did was pick a reason to give for hating her.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)demosincebirth
(12,826 posts)DavidDvorkin
(20,589 posts)That needs to be repeated every time someone blames Clinton for Trump being in the White House.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)on fighting Republican voter suppression and purges.
If they had made as much noise about it after the 2000 election as they have after this one, there not only would be no Trump now, there probably wouldn't be a Republican Party.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)or at least "made noise" that SCOTUS should totally go back to their chambers and stay there until they changed that decision.
Just like they should have done when SCOTUS handed the election to GWB...
Totally fell down on that, didn't they?
yurbud
(39,405 posts)this is clearly in the second column.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And when I have presented information in that first column - you state that she should have been MORE bulletproof to all of the obstacles that no other candidate has faced.
But I'll play your game:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/10/how-hillary-clinton-won/?utm_term=.4d14d263f26b
"The FBI investigation seemingly behind her (and Clinton's resilience again proven), her discipline as a candidate and the rigor with which her staff approached the nuts and bolts voter ID, organization building, etc. of the campaign began to shine through.
Clinton was the far superior debater in each of the three debates. She was prepared and measured, keeping her cool as Trump tried to rattle her with attacks from all angles personal, professional and just plain odd. In a word, she looked presidential, while he did not.
Then came Oct. 28 and a stunning letter from Comey that emails pertinent to the Clinton investigation had been discovered on a computer belonging to former congressman Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.) and his wife longtime Clinton confidante Huma Abedin."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/02/in-nearly-every-swing-state-voters-preferred-hillary-clinton-on-the-economy/
"Clinton was generally preferred by those who said foreign policy was the most important issue, too, but Trump was preferred by those who saw immigration or terrorism as most important. The key is the margins. On average, about 13 percent of people in the 27 states said foreign policy was most important and they preferred Clinton by an average of 30 points. On average, voters who said the economy was most important preferred Clinton by 7.3. But on terrorism, rated most important by a fifth of voters, on average, Trump led by an average of 21.8 points. On immigration (most important to an average of 12.2 percent of respondents)? A huge 42.1 percentage point lead for Trump." (of course if HRC had played to the immigration/islamophobia fears of the white working class voters after 8 years of Obama, she would have been excoriated for that, too.)
She and the campaign slammed Comey for what they claimed was unprecedented meddling in a presidential election, effectively turning the conversation in the race to the FBI as opposed to her presidential campaign.
Simultaneously, Clinton's on-the-ground organization began to assert itself rolling up record totals in key Democratic communities in Florida and Nevada, totals that gave her campaign a massive leg-up Tuesday."
https://qz.com/833003/election-2016-all-women-voted-overwhelmingly-for-clinton-except-the-white-ones/


Igel
(37,535 posts)"wafer-thin margins of victory in a handful of key battleground states"
Going with majority or plurality for the country as a whole is also a system. There are other systems.
still_one
(98,883 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)the election come before the bogus Comey announcement.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-comey-letter-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/
"If three states key to Trumps victoryPennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsinhad suffered even a modestly lower casualty rate, all three could have flipped from red to blue and sent Hillary Clinton to the White House.
Wisconsins Voter-ID Law Suppressed 200,000 Votes in 2016 (Trump Won by 22,748)
https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsins-voter-id-law-suppressed-200000-votes-trump-won-by-23000/
yurbud
(39,405 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 20, 2017, 06:47 AM - Edit history (3)
She ran against the Kremlin, 25 years of GOP smears that the far left opened wide and swallowed, misogyny, Comey, voter suppression aimed at democrats, and the statistical improbability of a party holding the WH for more than two consecutive terms, and still got more votes than any candidate but Obama.
Overcame all of that. Got the voters that were concerned about economics in nearly every swing state, as well as those who were concerned about social justice.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/02/in-nearly-every-swing-state-voters-preferred-hillary-clinton-on-the-economy/?utm_term=.28621f57b9ad
A bad candidate wouldn't have been keeping Putin up at night.
No other candidate has done that. But hey, it's Hillary we're talking about, so she totally blew it...
yurbud
(39,405 posts)to Russia's security.
Her foreign policy record, pubic alignment with neocons, and even statements about what she would do in Syria made it clear Russia would be in the cross hairs if she won.
You have to think about how people in other countries would see things too, or do you expect Russians to shower our troops with flowers and chocolates after a nuclear war?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)a few swing states. Look at the thread if you don't believe me....
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't simply trying to attack a straw man.
Is that clearer?
You're welcome.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Which address the very real reasons that the WH was stolen from her.
"A bad candidate wouldn't have been keeping Putin up at night. "
The idea of a president Hillary Clinton kept Putin up at night - therefore she was going to be a threat to him if elected. He wouldn't have had to intervene if she wasn't a good candidate, one who did indeed get the majority of votes.
Is that clearer?
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)and that Comey announcement rocked ME to the foundation.
Who knows how many votes across America were sealed by that "one more thing?"
80,000?
yurbud
(39,405 posts)on me nor did Benghazi or any of the other Conservative scandals they made up.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)I know you have an agenda you are supporting here - but your notion that what Comey did had no impact, was inconsequential - I guess this is the revisionist history we all have to learn to dig through now in our new fact-free world.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)indeed reason to mistrust her other than the emails, which the questioner thought was so transparently a "false claim" to throw the election.
I believe you are being asked to confirm the argument that she should have been so popular, and so above any possible reproach that the Comey letter should not have shaken faith in her on anyone's part, despite the fact that the numerous investigations and smears that the questioner lists had the desired effect, particularly in an election where the misogyny and anger on the far left were weaponized.
Any thoughtful person takes new data, even that which challenges their confirmation bias, into account when presented. And an FBI director making the case that one candidate was under investigation is compelling, because we assume that the FBI acts without political bias.
We didn't know that at the time - and it caused something of a celebration on the far left, who used it as confirmation for their anger at the Democratic party for perceived wrongs.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)it is pretty hard to ignore the Director of the FBI when he says he has evidence of transmitted classified materials, and 11 days before the election a whole new source for more emails which could include more classified materials.
You'd have to be pretty jaded and cynical to ignore all that - and if you ever had any issue with supporting Hillary, what a deal-breaker that would have been!
"Misogyny and anger on the far left weren't weaponized?" Come on.
Now you're just yankin' my chain.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I think now you will see that I am indeed agreeing with you, and was explaining what the questioner was trying to get you to confirm.
I didn't even pay attention that you were not the source of the prior comment that irritated me so!
I was trying to support YOU up thread!
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Aristus
(72,182 posts)Russian hacking cost Hillary the election. Bottom line.
Is everybody forgetting she got three million more votes? In a normal world, that's WINNING an election, not costing an election...
BlueMTexpat
(15,690 posts)Le Gaucher
(1,547 posts)Solly Mack
(96,942 posts)wondered why the U.S. wasn't dropping nukes as a way to solve problems.
Regardless of your stance on the military and the use of the military, to think someone who gets giddy about dropping nuclear warheads on villages (and people) is somehow not hawkish (or completely unstable) is ludicrous.
"war fatigue" my ass from voters who voted for Trump.
No one - and I mean no one - is suffering from war fatigue who votes for a man who wants - who actually thinks it would be a good thing - to use nukes.
Spouse to a now retired (20 plus years) war veteran.
brer cat
(27,587 posts)Of all the excuses for trump voters, this one really defies reality. Just thinking about this CiC playing with his "toys" keeps me up at night. I am glad your husband is retired, Solly. Spouses of active duty military must live in terror of what he might do in a macho moment or when he needs a distraction.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)might have seen one candidate who at least said he didn't want to start a war with our only nuclear peer, and it wasn't our gal.
And the only thing that makes me suspect he might try to avoid war with Russia is that they probably do have some dirt on him or even more likely, mob hooks in him that make him afraid to do otherwise.
Also, didn't Trump make that nuke comment after he was elected?
kimbutgar
(27,248 posts)My husband pointed out the Russian meddling during the election and tried to convince his friend this was false. His wife was angry with her hubby that he voted chump. Recently he told my husband he realized he was duped by his friend who disappeared from Facebook after the election.
Me.
(35,454 posts)I wish there was an unrecce button
Squinch
(59,521 posts)ridiculous.