Is It Time for Me to Leave America?

[Jilly_in_VA]

Wajahat Ali

Is it time to leave?

I’ve caught myself asking my wife this question several times over the past year. We were both born and raised in America, a country of opportunity for our immigrant parents who left Pakistan with little more than hope and belief in a dream that anyone, even brown-skinned Muslims, with some luck and hard work, could make it and be accepted. But that dream is becoming a nightmare.

If you’re a person of color, it seems foolish and reckless to not, at least, have an exit plan when looking at the political and cultural landscape.

This is not a flippant or hyperbolic thought exercise, and I’m not the only one to increasingly ponder the question: “Where else can we go when this country turns on us?”

Earlier this week, New York Times journalist Farnaz Fassihi was trolled and harassed on Twitter for simply stating the following: “I’m a child of immigrants. When I was a kid, everyone I knew wished they could raise their children in America, now, everyone I know wishes they could raise their children outside of America.”

If you’ve traveled and talked to people over the past few years, her statement wasn’t extraordinary, it’s a sadly common utterance. Most people around the world aren’t rejoicing at America’s self-inflicted downfall, they’re looking at us with pity, sadness, and a desperate hope that we get our shit together. After all, the United States is still the most powerful and wealthy country in the world, and a doorstop against rising authoritarianism.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-it-time-for-me-to-leave-america?ref=home
____________________________________________________________________________
Long and thoughtful piece by a journalist I admire. I've asked myself the same question, and I'm white.

[bucolic_frolic]

1. The exodus will make hurricane evacuations seem like child's play

and the question is, who will take us? It's not like anybody is screaming for citizens. Except maybe Russia.

[Jilly_in_VA]

2. I have a better idea

Deport the MAGATs to Russia. They keep claiming they'd rather live there anyway.

[FoxNewsSucks]

6. Best idea there is.

Send them to Russia, Somalia, China and anywhere else that has a murderous dictator they love.

[Rebl2]

33. Agreed

They like that type of government, then let them move.

[leftieNanner]

3. We have had this conversation in our house

We are white as well.

My husband and I are retired, and that can be an issue in some countries.

When our two adult daughters come home for a friend's wedding later this month, I plan to raise the subject over dinner one night. I could not imagine living an ocean away from my children (and potential future grands).

But I always circle back to the question - shouldn't I stay here and fight?

[Wednesdays]

4. Amen to your last sentence.

The article is another form of defeatism, which seems to be rampant on DU lately.

[Jilly_in_VA]

7. Did you note

that the author and his wife decided to stay and fight? OR did you just read the part I posted? HMMMMM?

[shrike3]

11. I came upon a paywall when I tried to read the whole article, much to my disappointment.

[Chainfire]

17. One of my heroes of the past was a Berlin professor

of science. He was a famous pacifist and he believed that no one should submit to being inducted into a military, that no one should train in the use of weapons and that an international organization should be empowered to settle all national disputes. He was extremely steadfast in his beliefs until he saw what was happening during the rise of the Nazis. As a dedicated scientist, he was able to accept new data an revise his way of thinking about the subject to fit the facts. He knew that in the absence of the world-wide arbitrator, that is was necessary for people to arm and train to protect civilization. If it was good enough for Dr. Einstein, who am I to argue? I may have to go, but I will not go gently into that good night.

[wnylib]

29. Sometimes fighting in exile is an alternative.

People who leave for their own well being can advocate in other countries for changes in the US

There were people in exile from Nazi occupied countries who helped from the outside to get those in most danger out to safer places.

Not an option for me. I am a retired senior of no renown or great wealth. But it has occurred to me that, if I were visiting another country during a coup, I might be able to get at least temporary asylum.

[SCantiGOP]

5. We've looked into it

Greece and Portugal will take you if you buy and continue to own at least $250,000 of property. Canada wants proof at least $2 million in assets to bring with you, or that you have a full time job. South American countries have lower requirements but you may not find the level of infrastructure you are used to.
So there may not be a lot of options for middle class people. And, none of this automatically includes health insurance, since they do not want to add people who have never contributed to the system.

For us, there is no real consideration because of our children and grandchildren.

[Jilly_in_VA]

8. Same here with kids and grandkids, but

apparently there are a lot of English-speaking expats in Ecuador, Costa Rica, Belize, Uruguay (my choice), Chile, and certain parts of Mexico. Urban areas of those countries are pretty well developed so infrastructure may not be as bad as you think.

I told my daughter to be sure that all members of her family have passports, just in case. Everyone in the family except her is a person of color.

[shrike3]

10. Just found this regarding Portugal

If you’re a non-EU citizen, you need to require your residence permit from the Portuguese consular office in your home country. The requirements to do so are:

Having a valid passport;

Proof of income;

Proof of health insurance;

Criminal background check.

You may also get a temporary permit that allows you to live in the country for 5 years before requesting permanent residence.

You can also retire in Portugal through the Golden Visa scheme, but you must meet one of the following requirements in the real estate sector:

Make a purchase of real estate with a value of at least 500.000€;

Purchase real estate with a value of at least 350.000€ to renovate (the property must either have construction dating back more than 30 years or be in areas of urban regeneration);

Make a purchase of 280.000€ in a low-density area.

[Jilly_in_VA]

14. My nephew and his wife are living in Portugal currently

They are refugees from Ukraine---she is a Ukrainian citizen, he is American but has lived abroad for the last 16 years, 10 in China and Japan and then he met and married Olena and they moved to Kyiv which is her home town. They left there when Russia invaded because she was pregnant and they didn't want the baby born in the middle of war. I think they have friend in Portugal. Anyway, they are living in Faro and the baby, a girl, was born there this past Thursday. They are on renewable yearly visas, I gather. He is employed with a European company. Their now 3 year old is beginning to be trilingual and has started preschool there!

[shrike3]

19. I am so glad your nephew and his wife got out. Wonderful.

We have tossed around the idea of leaving, but it would be very difficult for my husband, since he is so close to his child.

[not fooled]

18. France requires minimum income

[link:https://www.frenchentree.com/living-in-france/retiring/retiring-to-france-visas-path-to-permanent-residency/|]

Proof of sufficient income

Visitor visas have strict requirements on sufficient income– you must be able to prove that you can support yourself without any help from the French state. Sufficient funds are typically based on France’s minimum wage (SMIC), so in 2021 this would have been a monthly net income of more than €1,269 or €15,228 annually. Acceptable forms of proof might include bank statements, tax returns, or pension receipts.

It's gone up a little since then (I believe currently ~€1,300 monthly). Still pretty reasonable. There are some additional requirements, such as proof of health insurance, but not onerous. I'm applying for a long-stay visa later this year; if it's granted, I'm gone.

[shrike3]

22. Thanks, I hadn't thought of France.

Don't think I'll be able to convince the husband to leave, but I'll keep your info in mind.

[Bluethroughu]

9. We have talked about a few different countries too, BUT

This is OUR COUNTRY, and my ancestors immigrated here...to fight in the Civil War and all wars after that.

How could I cut and run?

We will stay with the MAJORITY of level headed Americans that believe this is a shared country that wants and will do better.

We will win, and I am willing to fight for a better union.

European countries had these fights, we are younger and have to learn the hard way, possibly, or we might wake up to a social revolution over, with the almost everyone on board, except maybe Elon and a minority of self absorbed nobodies with nothing left but their bruised ego.

[Bucky]

13. That's how I feel too.

The assholes ruining this country are just mind-bogglingly stupid. But ultimately that's making it harder for them to win over new voters.

[Bluethroughu]

25. Yes, they are creating a smaller fan base.

Hopefully, the brainwashed deprogram faster than we'd expect, so we can move forward in a positive way faster.

[Bucky]

32. Unfortunately, the "brainwashed" do not deprogram so easily

The whole point of the conservative news bubble is to create mental architecture against being persuadable.

To get them to question their own mental pipelines, you actually have to get them to completely tune out their kool-aid sources for a full month and just watch middle of the road CNN content.

There's an actual study done to demonstrate that. Here's two news articles (1,2) and a link to the actual published research report (3):

(1) https://www.salon.com/2022/04/04/can-fox-news-viewers-be-deprogrammed-paying-them-to-watch-cnn-makes-them-less-gullible_partner/

(2) https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/apr/11/fox-news-viewers-watch-cnn-study

(3) https://osf.io/jrw26/

[Skittles]

27. there are always people who expect others to do the fighting

they'd return with victory

[shrike3]

12. We saw an acquaintance this past weekend whom we had not seen in quite a while.

He asked me how one gets a passport. He'd never had one. He was also talking about retiring outside the country. This is a non-political person. I didn't bring up politics because he didn't. But he seemed convinced it might be time to leave America. This startled me, because he was one of the last people I would have imagined wanting to leave.

[Skittles]

28. is he retirement age?

that's frequently another reason, if finances aren't up to par

[shrike3]

34. He's already retired, has been for some time.

[Chainfire]

15. While, I sometimes think that I would like to escape my fellow Americans

I hit my three score and ten this year and I do not have the energy to start over, even if someone would take me. In any case, I will be damned if I will let a bunch of redneck bastards run me off. The worst that they can do is kill me, and I am already at the point where I wouldn't lose a lot in the process.

[OldBaldy1701E]

30. HEAR HEAR! (n/t)

[Dan]

16. I'm thinking that if it really get bad here,

that lots of people decide to leave, it will be too late. Because "we" will export our shit to other countries...as sure as we do our movies.

[70sEraVet]

20. I think their plan to revisit the question in two years, is both smart and, frankly, terrifying.

If, God forbid, TFG or one of his wannabe's is elected to the presidency, all bets are off.
Not just for immigrants, but for gays, blacks, Jews, atheists.... anybody who the Right deems a threat to their social order.

[Bluethroughu]

26. Add women to the list.

[Magoo48]

21. I'm 74 and live on the left coast. I was born in Long Beach, and SoCal has always been home port.

This is where I make my stand. If the fascists win out, I will fuck with them as hard as possible for as long possible. Of course, I respect any choices my wife, kids, and grandkids might make.

I believe in the not so distant future the west coast will become its own nation. Kids and grandkids might see this, not me. So, here I am, here I’ll stay.

[BidenRocks]

23. North SFV.

I doubt these jerkoffs would try anything here.
But, like you, I will fight and take their precious gunz and ammo.
Ambush tactics beat the Redcoats.
I'm too old to worry about death.
USMC Vet

[Skittles]

24. I will never abandon my country to fascists

I will stay and fight.

[wnylib]

31. For people who can't leave the country

due to age or income, relocating within the US might be an option. Move from red to blue areas. Make a stand and fight back among people who are allies.

[Deep State Witch]

35. We've Had This Discussion, Too

My husband and I have had this discussion several times. He wants somewhere where people speak English. I told him that, in Europe, most people are at least conversant in English. I have a friend who is moving to Montenegro from Seattle. I've looked into buying property in Greece, Croatia, and Italy. Portugal seems like a nice option, too.

The problem is that we have two aging relatives. One is his Mom, who lives in Venice, FL. The other is my aunt, who lives about a mile from us. His Mom has two other sons, but is closest to my husband (her eldest). My aunt (mom's younger sister) is in good health, but I'm really her only living relative. If we become expats, we'd probably take her with us. I'm sure that she wouldn't mind living in Italy. She loves it there.

[Jilly_in_VA]

36. I note that everyone here seems to be thinking of Europe

We went quite another way and considered other options. I have enough Spanish that I could get along quite easily in a Spanish-speaking country with enough English-speaking expats, and I'm pretty sure I could pick up Spanish pretty easily again. Spousal unit thinks he is too old to but said okay, enough expats and that would be fine with him, or an educated population. So we considered several South American and Central American countries. He also liked any former Commonwealth countries, many of which he has visited, but not Australia; leans toward the island nations, Caribbean and Pacific (yeah, I know, climate change). There was also one surprise on the list that nobody else had thought of. It's the most stable country in Africa, speaks English, and has a burgeoning tech business---Botswana. Namibia was also considered.

[Raymundo]

37. Language and skills requirements for other English speaking nations

Other nations within the fold of English speakers generally have tech skills and high language proficiency (beyond most American English Comp 101) barriers.

[Jilly_in_VA]

38. Sure, if you're talking about

UK, Australia, and NZ. But have you considered the Caribbean nations, Belize, Fiji, Samoa, Botswana, Namibia? That's where the ability to think outside the box comes in handy. Anyway, tech skills are not a problem here, spousal unit is a systems engineer/solutions architect.

[CarlYasutomo]

39. Keep your US citizenship if possible

Well, if any of you do leave America, please retain your US citizenship if at all possible so that you can continue to vote in US elections and donate to Democratic candidates. I've lived outside the US for well over 20 years, and I still vote in every US election and have ActBlue bookmarked for frequent donations.

[Eliot Rosewater]

40. Welcome and thanks for this comment!

[CarlYasutomo]

41. Thanks! Long time lurker

Thanks! I'm a long time lurker. I actually posted a few times in 2004/2005, after W's re-election, which at the time I thought was the worst election ever. (Sigh...)