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anobserver2

(923 posts)
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 11:40 AM Jul 2023

How To Fake a College Degree All the Way to the White House (FERPA, legacy admit, GHW Bush, Yale)

This true email correspondence below concerns my efforts to get the Yale University Registrar to release to me the academic transcript of a legacy-admission, the now deceased alumni, GHW Bush. Note: I have replaced my real name on this email with my DU screen name, "anobserver2"
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: anobserver2
Date: Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 12:08 PM
Subject: Re My FOIA Request re GHW Bush/ Your reason for not releasing transcript to me
To: Marshall, Shonna
Cc:


Re: My FOIA request/Your reason for not releasing GHW Bush's Yale transcript to me

Hello again Shonna Marshall, Yale University Registrar,

I thought more about our email conversation and what you wrote to me, citing "strict confidentiality standards" for "student" and "Alumni" "privacy."

But my FOIA request concerns a legacy-admitted deceased alumni, George HW Bush, and I believe it is currently a matter of great public interest what a legacy admitted student who became US President might have in his Yale transcript.

I think the actual reason Ms. Preston did not reply to me (even though, as you know, she is the registrar of the Yale undergraduate economics dept) is because: she looked and could not find any transcript.

And, I think: you looked, too, and you can not find any transcript for him either.

I also believe deceased alumni do not have "rights" that Yale can "protect."

Therefore, it seems to me my conclusion may actually be correct:

George HW Bush actually never attended any classes during the time he was at Yale.

Yet, after admitting this legacy, and not requiring to go to any classes, Yale
handed him a diploma and a degree in economics -- knowing full well that basically all this "student" did was to play soccer one semester, baseball three semesters, and join a fraternity.


And that's it.

There is no transcript because there are no grades because he went to no classes.

GHW Bush did not graduate from any "accelerated" undergraduate degree program in economics as Yale did not then and does not now have an "accelerated" undergraduate degree program in economics -- despite what a spokesman for GHW Bush has claimed for years.

I also want to politely share this with you, Shonna Marshall, Yale Registrar:

https://people.howstuffworks.com/lose-right-to-privacy-when-you-die.htm
https://people.howstuffworks.com/lose-right-to-privacy-when-you-die.htm]

FOIA and the Privacy Rights of the Deceased

The Federal Privacy Act and the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) do a fair job of protecting people's privacy, but there's one law that comes into direct conflict with them: the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). This law is intended to create government transparency, making it harder for government officials to keep secrets from the citizens they serve. Sometimes, someone files a FOIA request, and the government has to decide if releasing the information violates someone's privacy.

There are several exemptions to FOIA that the government can invoke to avoid releasing information. One allows the government to deny a FOIA request if the request includes "personnel and medical files and similar files that would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy." This allows the government to tread the line legally between FOIA, HIPAA and the Federal Privacy Act in most cases.

That covers the privacy rights of living people, but what happens after death? The Privacy Act is very clear -- it doesn't apply to dead people. Once you die, your information is no longer protected under that law. ...

-------------

Finally, I would like you to know:

I saw GHW's high school transcript published in a book I purchased, "School House to White House" about the education of some of our nation's presidents. This is the book:

https://www.amazon.com/School-House-White-Education-Presidents/dp/1904832431

GHW Bush's private high school transcript is found on page 41, lower right corner. His grades are not so great.

Here are some of the highlights, or perhaps, what some might call, lowlights, of the private high school academic career of this legacy-admitted Yale alumni, GHW Bush:

He failed math with a grade of "55."

He failed chemistry with a grade of "55."

He passed English with "60," the lowest possible passing grade.

Most of his grades are in the 70's. He is not an honors student by any stretch of the imagination.

He graduated Number 213 in a class of 214.


-------------

The book was published as a result of this exhibit:

https://www.archivesfoundation.org/exhibit/school-house-to-white-house-the-education-of-the-presidents/
https://www.archivesfoundation.org/exhibit/school-house-to-white-house-the-education-of-the-presidents/]

I do not recall seeing anywhere the word "legacy" in this book or exhibit. Instead the above URL states GHW Bush was "accepted" into Yale:

"George H. W. Bush attended a small day school in Connecticut before he was enrolled, at age 13, in the Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts. While there, Bush was a popular student who participated in many extracurricular activities including organizing local charity drives and serving as the editor of the school newspaper. After Phillips, he was accepted at Yale University before leaving to serve in World War II. Bush returned to Yale after the war in an accelerated program that allowed him to graduate in two and a half years..."


https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2007/spring/schoolhouse.html
-----------------------

Well, in conclusion - thank you for reading this far, if you did.

I honestly think Yale has an obligation, now more than ever, to state the real facts about the education of legacy-admitted GHW Bush, in light of on-going litigation about legacy admissions in our country.

If you actually have no transcript for GHW Bush, then Yale should state that to me in response to my FOIA request.

Maybe you could honestly state something factual like this:

Since GHW Bush was a totally unqualified legacy admission at Yale -- and as he cringed at the very thought of actually attending classes -- Yale did not require him to do so. Thus, he earned no grades, and he has no transcript - even though we handed him a diploma and a degree after he hung around Yale for "two and a half years" in "an accelerated program" for economics that does not exist.

Otherwise, I feel what you and Yale are saying to me is dishonest, and sounds something like this:

"Yale remains committed to fostering a culture of inclusion, diversity, collaboration, and innovation" - https://registrar.yale.edu/ -
and, yes, everyone admitted to Yale is welcome to fake a college degree all the way to the White House.


I have cc-ed the Yale University President's assistant on this email to you. Perhaps in the next week or so he can find GHW Bush's transcript -- if one exists -- and email or mail it to me at my address below.

My best,
anobserver2

cc Yale University President Peter Salovey https://president.yale.edu/
via Michael Hoepp, Assistant to the President michael.hoepp@yale.edu
https://president.yale.edu/about/office-directory

On Mon, Jul 10, 2023 at 9:16 AM Marshall, Shonna wrote:

Hello anobserver2,

Ms. Preston in the Economics department does not have privy to student transcripts. Transcripts are under the exclusive purview of the University Registrar's Office. While under FERPA regulations, we may be authorized to release certain information, it is the university's discretion as to what information we will release. At this time we will not release the transcript for which you are asking. Yale University has strict confidentiality standards for student and alumni privacy which, at times, extends beyond the minimum of what FERPA requires.

My best,
Shonna

Shonna Marshall
University Registrar
Yale University Registrar’s Office
246 Church Street, 3rd floor, New Haven, CT 06510
http://registrar.yale.edu/
she|her|hers




-----Original Message-----
From: anobserver2
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2023 6:14 PM
To: Marshall, Shonna
Subject: To Shonna Marshall / Fwd: 2nd request for transcript of GHW Bush at Yale

Dear Shonna Marshall, University Registrar at Yale,

I found your name here:
https://registrar.yale.edu/staff-directory

Shonna Marshall
University Registrar
(203) 436-8036
shonna.marshall@yale.edu

I have been trying for some time now, without success, to get the Yale Undergraduate Registrar for the Dept of Economics to respond to my request for a certified transcript of a deceased students, George HW Bush, which I believe I have the legal right to request un FERPA since he is deceased and Yale receives federal funds.

But I can not get her to respond. I have been both polite and patient.

Can you help me by speaking to her and telling her to respond to my email?

Thank you.

anobserver2

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: anobserver2
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 12:22:27 -0400
Subject: 2nd request for transcript of GHW Bush at Yale
To: shannon.preston@yale.edu

Dear Shannon Preston, Yale Undergraduate Registrar, Dept of Economics,

On June 6th I asked you how much it cost to receive a certified copy of the undergraduate transcript of GHW Bush, whose bio states he completed an accelerate economics program at Yale in only 2-1/2 years.

I did not see any accelerated economics program on the Yale website, and I did not receive any reply from you regarding my request.

Consequently, I am sending this 2nd email, again asking how much it would cost to obtain a certified transcript of this deceased former president, as how long it will take to obtain this certified transcript.

My understanding of FERPA law is that since this former student is now deceased, and died over the age of 18, and as Yale receives federal funding, I can obtain this transcript.

Please respond at your earliest convenience. Thank you.


anobserver2

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: anobserver2
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 10:51:58 -0400
Subject: Can you send me this transcript ? /
To: "Preston, Shannon"

Dear Shannon,

Thank you for your email. I did read the website in its entirety, but did not find any info on on an accelerated undergraduate degree program in economics. That is why I wrote to you.

As you are the registrar, I am now writing to request the following from
you:

A certified copy of the undergraduate transcript of a deceased Yale alumni, as my understanding is that Yale received federal money and is thus subject to FERPA< and FERPA student privacy no longer applies when the student is deceased, and died over the age of 18.

The deceased student is George H. W. Bush who arrived at Yale in 1945 and left in 1948. (And, later became the 41st president of the United States.)


I can pay for the cost of any certification and photocopying.

Kindly let me know the amount to send you in a check or money order; which you prefer.

If you are not the person who handles student records as the registrar for undergraduate economics, kindly email and let me know the name of the person who is in charge of this.

I am a retired teacher doing research.

Thank you.

anobserver2






On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 10:33 AM Preston, Shannon
wrote:

> Hello anobserver2,
>
>
>
> All program information can be found on the department website,
> https://economics.yale.edu/. Here are some additional resources,
> https://yalecollege.yale.edu/
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shannon
>
>
>
> *Sh**annon Preston | Undergraduate Registrar*
>
> Department of Economics
>
>
>
> *From anobserver2
> *Sent Tuesday, June 6, 2023 10:24 AM
> *To Preston, Shannon
> *Subject Is there someone else I should ask? / Fwd: Quick question /
> To Shannon Preston, Undergrad Registrar - Economics
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I did not hear back from you on this question. Is there someone else
> I should ask?
>
> anobserver2
>

> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: anobserver2
> Date: Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 10:45 AM
> Subject: Quick question / To Shannon Preston, Undergrad Registrar -
> Economics
> To:
>
>
>
> Dear Shannon Preston, Undergraduate Registrar, Economics,
>
>
>
> I found your name and email address online here -
>
>
>
> https://economics.yale.edu/undergraduate/undergraduate
>
> https://economics.yale.edu/people/shannon-preston
>
>
>
> I have a quick question -
>
>
>
> Does Yale have an accelerated program for an undergraduate
>
> Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics?
>
>
>
> (I saw a 3-year accelerated program online for the Yale Latin American
>
> Studies undergraduate degree, but I can not find any similar 3-year
> accelerated
>
> program on the Yale website for economics.)
>
>
>
> Kindly email.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>anobserver2
>
22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
How To Fake a College Degree All the Way to the White House (FERPA, legacy admit, GHW Bush, Yale) (Original Post) anobserver2 Jul 2023 OP
You're wrong. NT mahatmakanejeeves Jul 2023 #1
What are you even talking about? anobserver2 Jul 2023 #3
FERPA now the title anobserver2 Jul 2023 #17
You may remember the thread I wrote when GHW Bush died ... anobserver2 Jul 2023 #2
Yale isn't subject to FOIA Fiendish Thingy Jul 2023 #4
Well, Yale is subject to FERPA - they receive federal funds. anobserver2 Jul 2023 #5
Have you found a lawyer willing to sue? Nt Fiendish Thingy Jul 2023 #21
Thread title fixed now anobserver2 Jul 2023 #18
Here is my point - and I think this would have to be litigated anobserver2 Jul 2023 #6
A journalist then reminded me of this... anobserver2 Jul 2023 #7
FERPA says: YES, you can get a transcript of a DECEASED STUDENT anobserver2 Jul 2023 #8
Yale said nothing - at first. anobserver2 Jul 2023 #9
Read the link I posted about the Privacy Act and death anobserver2 Jul 2023 #10
What I am trying to say to Yale is this: You are wrong - because.... anobserver2 Jul 2023 #11
Yale does not have a transcript for GHW Bush is my belief now anobserver2 Jul 2023 #12
You have to remember: GHW Bush was married with a kid anobserver2 Jul 2023 #13
BTW I am very much against legacy admissions anobserver2 Jul 2023 #14
Will re-format later anobserver2 Jul 2023 #15
Long-story short. It's not what you know, it's who you know. czarjak Jul 2023 #16
True anobserver2 Jul 2023 #19
Short version of my argument here anobserver2 Jul 2023 #20
Now do Musk orthoclad Jul 2023 #22

anobserver2

(923 posts)
3. What are you even talking about?
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 11:46 AM
Jul 2023

What are you even talking about?

Yes, you can fake a college degree all the way to the White House - that is my belief. That is my opinion. That is why this is an editorial.

anobserver2

(923 posts)
17. FERPA now the title
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 03:30 PM
Jul 2023
I fixed the thread title, as it was under FERPA that I asked for the transcript (not FOIA, as I originally wrote, when I was in a rush to post here).

anobserver2

(923 posts)
2. You may remember the thread I wrote when GHW Bush died ...
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 11:44 AM
Jul 2023

... I have to run right now but I will link it here later - it was all about him faking his Yale degree.

Since he was a legacy admit, and that lawsuit to outlaw legacy admissions was recently filed, I have been thinkig about GHW Bush and that essay I wrote.

Back then I thought: he dropped out, and then he faked a degree - and Yale, well, they just didn't mind.

But, now I think: Maybe he never went to classes at all. And Yale didn't mind THAT either. They helped him fake a college degree.

Fiendish Thingy

(22,482 posts)
4. Yale isn't subject to FOIA
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 11:48 AM
Jul 2023

If you really think it is, see if you can find a lawyer who will sue Yale to force the release of GHWB’s records.

Rudy Giuliani might be willing…oh, wait…never mind.

anobserver2

(923 posts)
18. Thread title fixed now
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 03:32 PM
Jul 2023
I fixed the thread title, as it was under FERPA that I asked for the transcript (not FOIA, as I originally wrote, when I was in a rush to post here). Sorry about that!

anobserver2

(923 posts)
6. Here is my point - and I think this would have to be litigated
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 12:36 PM
Jul 2023

I used to think: Yale is a private school. No way can you get anyone's transcript. Period. End of story. However....

anobserver2

(923 posts)
7. A journalist then reminded me of this...
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 12:38 PM
Jul 2023

A journalist then reminded me: Yale, like many other private schools, receives federal funding for research. And I realized this: many private schools also received federal funding during COVID. So, that CHANGED the status of these schools from "private" and no way to ever get a transcript, to: NOW SUBJECT TO federal FERPA LAW. Now, there's more...

anobserver2

(923 posts)
8. FERPA says: YES, you can get a transcript of a DECEASED STUDENT
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 12:40 PM
Jul 2023

The federal FERPA law makes very clear that you can request the transcript of a DECEASED student, provided the student was over the age of 18 when the student died. OK, well, GHW Bush was certainly over the age of 18 when he died. SO, I am requesting his transcript from a school that took federal funds and is subject to FERPA. Now, what REALLY happened with this request I then made to Yale? They did not answer me. But when they did, I believe: they were wrong. Here's what I mean...

anobserver2

(923 posts)
9. Yale said nothing - at first.
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 12:43 PM
Jul 2023

The registrar of undergraduate transcripts in the economic dept is the one who should have responded to me. But didn't. Repeatedly. Then, the university registrar responded and said basically: Yes, we are under FERPA, but we have ADDITIOAL RESTRICTIONS. Well, I know that FERPA does say schools under FERPA can have additional restrictions, but, my main point is this: those additional restrictions apply to LIVING PEOPLE and LIVING ALUMNI. Yale can not extend their "additional restrictions" to: DECEASED PEOPLE as DECEASED people have no such rights.

anobserver2

(923 posts)
10. Read the link I posted about the Privacy Act and death
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 12:45 PM
Jul 2023

That link talks about two cases that went to court over this issue of Do the dead have rights? One case was the Clinton aide who committed suicide and a FOIA request was filed; the other was the Dale Earnhardt story was it? And people wanted photos of that crash. Both were litigated. I think in both cases the courts said no, and no. However, a former US President is not the same as a private citizen, and whiloe the families in those other two cases were I believe considered as to their wishes, the family of a US President is: the American people, in a sense. And, this topic of legacy admissions is very much in the public eye right now. So...

anobserver2

(923 posts)
11. What I am trying to say to Yale is this: You are wrong - because....
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 12:47 PM
Jul 2023

GHW Bush is deceased. You - Yale - while under FERPA - can have additional restrictions, BUT, you can't extend those to people who are dead. You can be FERPA and extend your additional privacy restrictions ONLY TO YOUR LIVING ALUMNI and NOT TO YOUR DEASED ALUMNI because the deceased do not get to acculumate additional rights like your living alumni do under FERPA. Therefore, I think this is a question that should be litigated. But the bottom line is this...

anobserver2

(923 posts)
12. Yale does not have a transcript for GHW Bush is my belief now
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 12:49 PM
Jul 2023

I read the yearbook entry for GHW Bush from the Yale archives library. He arrived there in the month of November, when others arrived in AUgust. That means he took no classes that semester., But he did play soccer. He never stayed long enough to earn any degree in economics. Yale has never and will never have an "accelerated" program in economics for many reasons. (You, as an individual can try to take more courses quicker, but Yale has rules about that, too - and you would still need to be enrolled longer than GHW Bush was on your individual accelerated program). In addition ...

anobserver2

(923 posts)
13. You have to remember: GHW Bush was married with a kid
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 12:52 PM
Jul 2023

As a college student, GHW Bush was married with a kid. MEANING: HE WAS A BUSY GUY! Maybe too busy for classes! His yearbook entry may be correct that he was very active in his fraternity and played sports. But after reviewing his high school grades as I did, and seeing how Yale is subject to FERPA, and how other restrictions under FERPA CAN apply to LIVING alumni, I just do not see how Yale can legally justify not turning over a transcript of a deceased alumni. The dead have no additional rights. The living do. Yet, in the end: I don't think Yale has a transcript for him anyway. Maybe a blank page with his name on it. That's it.

anobserver2

(923 posts)
14. BTW I am very much against legacy admissions
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 12:53 PM
Jul 2023

But I think the current lawsuit filed against legacy admissions needs to include public universities, not just Harvard. I predict the SCOTUS will rule that all private schools can continue legacy admissions, but - they may rule against public universities doing it.

anobserver2

(923 posts)
15. Will re-format later
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 12:53 PM
Jul 2023

Last edited Tue Jul 11, 2023, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)

I will try to make this post better later, when I have more time. Sorry to have ever used the word FOI anywhere, as I did originally ask for the transcript under FERPA (and not FOIA).

czarjak

(13,516 posts)
16. Long-story short. It's not what you know, it's who you know.
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 01:03 PM
Jul 2023

If you're not cheating, you're not trying. Secret Society members are extra special. Ask one.

anobserver2

(923 posts)
20. Short version of my argument here
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 03:40 PM
Jul 2023

Here is the short version of my above posts, when I was trying to make my point:

1) Private university Yale receives federal funds for research, and so is subject to federal FERPA law, and

2) FERPA explicitly allows anyone to seek the academic transcript of a deceased student who died over the age of 18. Like GHW Bush did.

3) FERPA also says some schools may extend additional protections to students.

4) But I am saying: Yale can't extend additional protections to a deceased alumni student. (For same reasons why defamation law does not apply to deceased people.)

So - I believe:

5) Under FERPA, Yale is stuck complying with my request for this deceased student's transcript.

Yale does not want to comply. I now think it's actually because GHW Bush skipped classes and has no transcript - but Yale handed him a degree and diploma anyway.

orthoclad

(4,728 posts)
22. Now do Musk
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 06:22 PM
Jul 2023

Good work on Bush.

There are questions about Musk's degrees and his potential violations of immigration laws.

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