How much money do doctors really make and why is it such a lot?

[Zorro]

The average U.S. physician earns $350,000 a year. Top doctors pull in 10 times that.

When those simple data points were first presented in 2020, a small subset of physicians came unglued on the microblogging site formerly known as Twitter, slinging personal insults and at least one deeply unflattering photo illustration of an economist.

We couldn’t understand why. The figures are nigh-on unimpeachable. They come from a working paper, newly updated, that analyzes more than 10 million tax records from 965,000 physicians over 13 years. The talented economist-authors also went to extreme lengths to protect filers’ privacy, as is standard for this type of research.

By accounting for all streams of income, they revealed that doctors make more than anyone thought — and more than any other occupation we’ve measured. In the prime earning years of 40 to 55, the average physician made $405,000 in 2017 — almost all of it (94 percent) from wages. Doctors in the top 10 percent averaged $1.3 million. And those in the top 1 percent averaged an astounding $4 million, though most of that (85 percent) came from business income or capital gains.

https://wapo.st/3rVBqqB

[bucolic_frolic]

1. Correct. And in Britain's NHS I recall reading few make more than $500K

and they seemed happier not chasing the money.

[BlueTsunami2018]

2. The have highly specialized skills.

It’s no picnic becoming a doctor, they deserve what they make as I see it.

[Doc Sportello]

6. Lot of professionals have "specialized skills"

But don't make anywhere what doctors do. Doctors today - as opposed to 50 years ago - make these huge amounts of money because their organizations control the marketplace through lobbyists and pols who do their bidding. Has nothing to do with specialized skills or whether or not they are having a picnic while training.

[jimfields33]

8. I don't care. I want highly trained, highly paid doctors to work on me.

[BlueTsunami2018]

10. You don't think being a brain surgeon is a little more highly specialized than being a plumber?

Those are the people making the big money. The brain guys, the heart guys, the cancer guys. Your local doctor isn’t taking in millions.

As a skilled tradesman who is pretty much fairly compensated for my skills and experience, I don’t begrudge a person in the business of saving lives making a better living.

[LiberalArkie]

11. What I want would be a highly trained aircraft mechanic, or pilot.

More people can die from a poor mechanic than a poor dermatologist.

[Brenda]

31. *snort*

Thanks for the laugh LA

[Doc Sportello]

25. Gaslight much?

Bringing in the old carnards about saving lives is a smokescreen. Brain surgeons are few while there are many dermatologists, plastic surgeons, etc. The reason is because of money and with rare exceptions, they aren't saving anyone's life. Whatever you make has nothing to do with this discussion. I repeat: doctors are paid the way they are because of their political influence. It's sad that people don't know that, or justify it because they like their personal doctor and we are taught to look up to them. Once upon a time your point was true. In fact, local doctors now are taking millions over two or three of their biggest earning years. Look at the chart.

I don't begrude anyone making money. When doctors, like CEOs of Big Phrarm are making theur millions while average people can't afford their proper care, I do begrude that.

[Chakaconcarne]

12. It does actually.. Many people aren't willing to go through the rigors (or are able) of med school

Perhaps many don't understand what going through med school is like....

The high pay is to keep the profession attractive in spite of...

[Doc Sportello]

24. Actually, it doesn't

It's kind of silly actually to think that the pay has anything to do with going through medical school. It is the way it is because of the reasons I listed. Also, many people don't know what it's like to go through becoming many different professions. It has nothing to do with why doctor's salaries are so high.

[zanana1]

28. My Primary Care Physician is only good for referrals to specialists.

[Igel]

34. Yes.

It was a GP that identified the ailment that would have left me dead in 12 months.

Meh, he was only good for a referral.

Please ignore the fact that the head of general medicine at a good medical school profiled me and overlooked the symptoms. The GP was worth his pay, as far as I'm concerned. (Not sure about the head of general medicine or the specialist, who looked at me and thought, "Yeah, not a woman, not what I'm publishing about." Endocrinologist, but not into thyroid problems. BOR-ring.)

My brother was an airplane mechanic. Trained for 6 months with a HS degree. Not 3 years after his bachelor's in STEM.

[zanana1]

38. Obviously, you had a good GP.

[Brenda]

32. Exactly right. Take Dentists and Ophthalmologists ...

Why doesn't Medicare cover Dental or Vision?

Because they have set themselves apart from human physiology to make ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY!!!

[Dustlawyer]

26. New Neurosurgeon salary is $900,000 a year.

My daughter's best friends husband has been medical school and a long residency where he made only $50,000 a year. He is now in his early 30's and has a lot of school loans. This is deferred gratification and should be rewarded to a large extent. Not everyone can learn to do this job/profession. His hours are and will continue to be insane. I will not say $900,000 is right or wrong but it is complicated. They do not work 9-5.

[Paladin]

29. My neurosurgeon is worth every penny of that, and more.

If any of you or your loved ones ever need the services of a neurosurgeon, you'll agree. There are plenty of stock speculators and real estate moguls in this country making more than $900K a year, with minimal educational training, and without saving a single life in the process.

[Igel]

35. Depends on the specialization.

The averages conceal more than they illuminate--it's why they're used.

Pediatricians earn less than GPs, GPs less than specialists, less common specialists earn more than more common specialists.

[Blues Heron]

3. The invisible hand slapping us about the face again.

We pay for this substandard shit out the wazoo. Healthcare in the US is such a disgusting joke.

[Aristus]

19. It's not usually the fault of the medical providers.

Sure, there are some overpaid, poorly-competent people out there who still manage to keep a medical license.

But most of us (I'm a Physician Assistant, not an MD) are very good at what we do, and find our hands tied, not by incompetence or poor training, but by having less and less time to do more and more for the for-profit or the 'not-for-profit' organizations we work for.

I earn in the low six-figures. I could be making a lot more working almost anywhere else. But I choose to stay with my current patient population (the homeless) because I love it so much, despite the stress and the overwork.

[Blues Heron]

22. I see big insurance and big pharma, and big hospital as the biggest probs

The people have been great through my medical journeys for the most part. Very grateful for all in the medical profession.

[Aristus]

23. In Tacoma, where I work, a large corporation owns three or four hospitals in town.

People call them a medical organization. I have to remind them that it's not a medical organization; it's a corporation that owns hospitals. There's a difference.

[Scrivener7]

4. These are averages. That means as many make much less as make much more. And those top

tiers skew the results for the rest of the tranches by quite a lot. Put that one guy making 4 million in with 20 who are making 200K, and the average pay for that group is almost 400,000, rather than the 200,000 most of them are actually getting.

Also, gender plays a role here. Those top specialties like Neuro and Ortho? Very male dominated.

I remember a conversation with my gynecologist once that made my jaw drop. At the time I was working in a medical capacity, though not as a doctor. For each client who had a forty five minute appointment with me once a week, I made about $3500 per year.

My gyno told me that she was discontinuing her obstetrics practice because for each pregnancy, she got about $6000 from insurance. No matter what. Nine months of appointments plus the delivery. Hi risk that required lots of appointments, twins, complicated delivery, no matter what, she got about $6000 per pregnancy.

She needed twice the schooling I had, twice the loans for that schooling, and many times more expensive malpractice insurance than I needed. Her responsibilities and risks were huge compared to mine, yet my pay structure was arguably better than hers.

If she went with a group, her pay improved, but not by all that much.

[LizBeth]

7. +1

[CrispyQ]

14. If men had babies obstetricians would be the highest paid of all doctors.

No fucking shit.

[mitch96]

5. I was a fly on the wall listening to Doc's and residents talk about $$$

All the new residents wanted to go into some sort of specialty and make lots of money. Also a program that did not have "call". Neuro surg,General surg and Ortho made lots and lots of money but worked their ass off after hours. Dermatology was big on the list as was plastic surgery. General practice....not so much.
Most new doc's I met were into helping people but eventually went to the dark side and went for the money. The reason was "family expectations" Paying for the education and the want/need for "toys"... I remember them talking about the latest and greatest car/boat/plane/house/hot girlfriend/boyfriend...etc..
Fly on the wall...
m

[Aristus]

20. Paying off their student loans is a huge motive to specialize.

Being able to change for expensive procedures helps them to pay off their medical loans faster.

One of the ways we could cut medical costs in this country is by paying students for medical school, with the proviso that they work as a primary care provider at a clinic of the government's choosing for a certain specific period of time after graduation and licensing.

[mitch96]

21. "with the proviso that they work as a primary care provider " this is an EXCELlENT plan

I have heard talked about for years. I don't know how the medical community would respond to it.
When the Rad's would do CT guided biopsys they would rush like hell to get 5-7 procedures done per day. Some if not all would go so fast they wouldn't even give the local anesthetic (lidocaine) time to work. Stickem with the lido and then the biopsy needle would go in 2 milliseconds after. The faster the Biopsy the more you could do in a day = more $$$$
m

[Igel]

36. That.

And insurance.

[Docreed2003]

9. It's an average

I can guarantee that the vast majority of primary care docs (Family Med, IM, Peds) are not making anywhere close to $350,000. The $350-$450k range is probably accurate for most medical sub-specialists and general surgery. Surgical subspecialties are the main drivers for extremes in income for physicians. Vascular, Neuro/spine, Ortho subspecialties, Ophthalmologists who do lens replacements/corrective procedures those specialties make much more than $350k because their surgical reimbursement is so high.

To broadly paint all physicians as somehow making "too much money", is disingenuous. Physicians are not the driver of healthcare costs in this country. It's easy to couch these numbers as "unimpeachable" without breaking down what the numbers mean and the specialty breakdown. If we really want to discuss out of control incomes, let's look at the massive profits being made in the insurance industry. I would also suggest that the average consumer would be absolutely shocked to learn what the "c-suite" of most hospitals earn in income.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

13. Misleading ...

My PCP doesn't make anywhere near those amounts.

[JT45242]

15. most GP do not make that kind of money ...

Surgeons (especially cosmetic and orthopaedic) make lots and lots of money.

Your typical GP, psychiatrist, etc., without a scalpel does not make that kind of money.

The answer -- the insurance companies decide what is worth paying for.

For OB/GYN after you pay for malpractice insurance, is highly unlikely to even sniff anywhere close to that kind of money.

Dangerous to paint the entire profession with such a broad brush.

[MichMan]

16. How much do they deserve to make then?

[keithbvadu2]

17. A friend who became a doctor said he never made so much money in his life, and never owed so much mo

A friend who became a doctor said he never made so much money in his life, and never owed so much money in his life.

[snowybirdie]

18. Who cares

They go to school for at least 10 years and endure grueling schedules for years. Many save lives and provide relief to thousands. A football player can leave college after a year or so. If he can throw well, he can earn $52 millon a year!

[eppur_se_muova]

27. Forget the avereage, what's the median ?

230 homeless people -- net worth zero -- are in a room. In walks Elon Musk. The "average" occupant of that room is now a billionaire! But the medium net worth is still zero, which is much more indicative.

A few very large numbers can greatly skew the average, in a way that the lowest numbers cannot. But the median is usually unaffected.

[Midnight Writer]

30. How much is it worth to save a patient's life?

How much is it worth to relief someone's pain or someone's illness?

How much is it worth to feel the pain of a patient's death?

I am much more worried about underpaid health care workers than overpaid ones.

The incredible cost of health care is not because the people working in it are overpaid.

It is because is is run as a business, and the executives, board members, and insurance companies set the prices and reap the profit.

[Igel]

37. Compare your gross and net incomes.

Which is bigger?

Which matters?