Black Flag or Bull!

[BillyRibs]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by seabeyond (a host of the Video & Multimedia forum).

I posted this News Story from A Source with a good reputation for Investigative journalism That Many other people on this Forum use as well. why Just to see what will happen!

[lamp_shade]

1. Can you tell us please who is the source with the good reputation?

[BillyRibs]

2. LOL nice try!

RT

[lamp_shade]

3. Thanks. I thought so. n/t

[BillyRibs]

10. The Big Green

LOGO in the screen was the dead giveaway for me.

[iamthebandfanman]

11. the big green logo

paid for by the big fascist Russian government was pretty obvious.. :p
while I know RT likes to let the left have a voice, they are very bias when it comes to world affairs and never bad mouth their dear leader.
just another STATE FUNDED network feeding propaganda to the masses. unfortunate so many on DU have bought into it as credible just because it tells them what they want to hear the majority of the time.. hate to tell folks , but fox news did the same thing for conservatives and all because they had an agenda too... just sayin' :p

[marble falls]

21. Just sayin' - you nailed it down tight. RT is a terrible souce of fact.

[freedom fighter jh]

18. ae911truth.org, which this video quotes pretty extensively,

is a reliable source. Its membership includes almost 2000 professionals credentialed in relevant fields.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. The United States education system shits out 33,000 engineers a YEAR.

So, no, saying 'almost 2000' isn't terribly relevant, or necessarily 'credentialed' on its face.
Also interesting is that the number AE911 claims hasn't grown much in 10 years. Despite said gaggle of Architects and Engineers actually building shit every day using the revised building codes that came from what we learned from the three failed structures on 9/11.

I don't see a lot of them piping up with 'gee this is unnecessary'.

[freedom fighter jh]

42. How did the number of engineers graduated

(I prefer to think of them as graduated, rather than shat) each year become a standard for credibility?

Do you think it would be safe for you to smoke because most doctors never said publicly that it's dangerous? Maybe no one ever asked them publicly.

Maybe most of those engineers were never asked publicly about 911.

The number of architects and engineers signing the ae911 truth petition has grown steadily over the years.

If architects and engineers think revised building codes are unnecessary, where are they going to say it? Have you checked those places? If not, how do you know they don't think so?

[AtheistCrusader]

46. When someone says 'ALMOST 2000' like it's a relevant point, it's important to fix it in context.

'Almost 2000' out of how many? Oh. A LOT. I see. Don't want to talk about numbers, don't bring up numbers.

AE911 was claiming 'almost 2000' members in '05.

And yes, I have checked those places. Current fire models are much more informed than they were 15 years ago, for high rise structures. We had a lot of theory, and not much practice. Practice has informed the models. The new 'Freedom Tower' WTC building is only, for instance, actually rated to withstand a 1,200c fire for 4 hours. If it is allowed to burn longer than that, it risks collapse. A significant improvement (mostly due to technical floors and liberal use of concrete supports instead of just steel) over the original twin towers and WTC7. Still not an invulnerable building.

[freedom fighter jh]

53. But it's the wrong context.

The total number of engineers who question the official story would be relevant only if they were all asked. Most engineers probably don't even know ae911 truth exists. And except for civil engineers, it's not relevant to them anyway.

In '05, I don't know how many members ae911 truth had, but they had maybe 100 or 200 professionals. They have another list besides, of people without degrees in the field. Maybe that's the 2000 you're thinking of.

The places I was asking if you checked are the places (whatever they might be) where informed people can register opinions about changes in building codes. Do you have any evidence that people who work with building codes believe that changes that came after 911 will help prevent another such collapse?

[AtheistCrusader]

57. Why do truthers pretend that

no one has 'ever heard of building 7' or 'ever heard of AE/911'?
Especially in a relevant field, like professional architects and engineers? You think they don't know building codes were changed after 9/11 as a result of what happened? Practically every professional journal relevant to the field has addressed what happened and why. They are QUITE aware of the 'controversy'.

Bullshit AE/911 only had 100-200 'professionals' in 2005. BULLSHIT.


There has been plenty of controversy over the code changes hashed and re-hashed, primarily due to cost and aesthetics. Or cost-benefit tradeoffs that recommendations like wider stairwells won't help, or reinforced stairways are 'unnecessary'. It all boils down to bitching about cost, mostly.
http://www.iccsafe.org/



Edit: LOL
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=83483
(2007 thread)

[cpwm17]

52. AE911truth.org is anything but a reliable source

Last edited Mon Sep 30, 2013, 12:50 PM - Edit history (1)

It was founded by Richard Gage, a lying scumbag. Richard Gage is one of the "Truther's" favorite proponents.

The first two minutes of this video (ignore the rest) shows him in one of his many lies:

[freedom fighter jh]

54. Just for the sake of argument

let's say Gage is lying. That does not discredit the professionals who looked at his evidence and agree that the official story doesn't seem right.

But Gage isn't lying. I can't tell from that video what was really the source of the smoke near building 7, but the guy who says it was from building 7 just asserts it, doesn't prove it. Seems to me it could go either way, and even if Gage was wrong that doesn't mean he was lying.

The flames: Gage says, "There are no flames visible in that smoke." Then the video shows flames that are clearly from a different time. Out of context. Doesn't show Gage to be a liar.

[cpwm17]

61. Gage was claiming that there were only small fires from WTC7 and little smoke

That is the context. That is a blatant lie.

[fasttense]

4. Well I figured Russian Television would eventually go there.

How can Russia lose if Americans are afraid of their own government. It's a win win for Putin.

[BillyRibs]

8. Fair Cut!

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

[inch4progress]

14. I don't want to hear Putin and win in the same sentence EVER again lol.

That kgb thug has no ground to stand on, NOR EVIDENCE TO PROVE THIS CRAZY ASS CLAIM.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. Putin's just trollin' us. No worries. Fair play with Radio Free Europe broadcasting bullshit

into Russia, funded by our government. Two can play at that game.

[inch4progress]

39. Is the field that equal though? Putin regularly kills or imprisons his opposition.

In 2003, Yuri Shchekochikhin, a liberal lawmaker and journalist who often criticized government corruption, died from what appeared to be a severe allergic reaction. Shchekochikhin's colleagues at the Novaya Gazeta newspaper where he worked assert that he was poisoned, though no evidence was found, according to the AP.

A second Novaya Gazeta reporter Anna Politkovskaya, also known for her criticism of the Kremlin, fell seriously ill after drinking tea on a flight from Moscow to southern Russia during coverage of a hostage crisis. Politkovskaya survived despite symptoms of severe food poisoning.

Vladimir PutinIn one of the most notorious cases of alleged KGB poisoning, BBC journalist Georgi Markov, who defected from the former communist country of Bulgaria, was killed when a Ricin-filled pellet was injected into his leg by a jab from a rigged umbrella.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/july-dec04/ukraine_12-15.html

Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny was sentenced to five years in jail for theft on Thursday, an unexpectedly tough punishment which supporters said proved President Vladimir Putin was a dictator ruling by repression.

Navalny, an anti-corruption campaigner who led the biggest protests against Putin since he took power in 2000, hugged his wife Yulia and his mother, shook his father's hand and then passed them his watch before being led away in handcuffs.

"Shame! Disgrace!" protesters chanted outside the court in Kirov, 900 km (550 miles) northeast of Moscow. Some supporters wept and others expressed shock and anger.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/18/uk-russia-navalny-idUKBRE96H05F20130718

Even if putin hasn't found a way to scramble RFE, and I'm sure he has in most area's, legislation in Russia limits opposition NGO's. The the field is anything but equal!

The law, which was cleared by the upper house of parliament earlier in July, will force non-governmental organizations (NGOs) engaging in "political activity" to register with the Justice Ministry as "foreign agents" and to file a report to officials every quarter.

Opposition groups say Putin is trying to silence groups whose criticism of his human rights record has undercut his credibility and helped fuel seven months of protests against his rule, the biggest since he came to power in 2000.

Putin, a former KGB spy, has dominated Russia for 12 years as prime minister or president and he won another six-year stint in March.

Earlier this month, the U.S. State Department voiced "deep concern" about the NGO law - and was promptly rebuked by Moscow for "gross interference", an exchange that underlined the impact the bill has had on already strained relations.

Putin said on Thursday that laws to open up competition in Russia's political system must be implemented with care, suggesting he remains wary about reforms introduced after the wave of protests.

So if you're a group fighting for Gender/sexual identity equality or such things as voter transparency OR Freedom of Information PUTINS GOVERNMENT WANTS TO MAKE SURE YOU KNOW HE'S GOT HIS EYE ON YOU. And you know what that means?.................Don't fuck with PUTIN, you just might end up drinking some polonium tea


LIBERATE RUSSIA! SOMEONE NEEDS TO RID RUSSIA OF PUTIN "SEAL TEAM SIX" STYLE

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Oh, in those dimensions, no current equivalence.

I wouldn't try comparing today's Russia with 1950's United States though. Homophobia was entrenched to a much greater degree then, and journalists did have ways of disappearing, or having their careers yanked out from under them...

So it's not like we haven't been there in living memory. But I was just comparing the PR/Propaganda character assassination between nations, not actual political/human rights climates.

[inch4progress]

50. Oh hell yea. Paranoia was and obviously still is a very dangerous thing.

Believe me, I more than anyone else, well anyone who isn't gay, am happy I was born after all that crap. I certainly wouldn't want to travel back in time to when gay bashings and Jewish institutions were boycotted, vandalized with occurrences of physical violence as well(although I'm pretty sure Russian Jews had it MUCH WORSE). We still have work for sure, but, I sure as shit would rather be in pennsyltuckey than Moscow.

[newfie11]

5. I have seen the things reported here before

I also remember when Kennedy was alive the military planned a false flag but Kennedy found out and stopped it.

There are many discrepancies coming out by experts, eye witnesses, firemen that worked it.
But the minute anyone questions the governments official story they are considered part of the tin hat society.

[BillyRibs]

9. Operation Northwoods, Or somthing like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

[RC]

17. Yeah, why is that?

Many of the so-called discrepancies are easily proved to be true. The government's version is full of , but if you don't go along with the official version, the one that the neo-con war mongers told us, tying 9/11 and Iraq together, you're certifiable. There is dissonance aplenty with those that insist the government's version is somehow the correct one. They have been trying to silence those of us that have it figured out, since day one. They can't because there are way too many discrepancies in their explanations. Even those concerning what we've been told about bin Laden.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. Bush version ties 9/11 & Iraq together. Reality is different but does not require a black flag op.

There are not only two views: Bush & 9/11 truther government conspiracy.

In my view, 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq and everything to do with Bin Laden. It was neither Bush-neoCon nor the Rube Goldberg machinery (conspiracy) that some imagine.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. I find the truther movement highly convenient to distract

attention from the 'you should have seen this coming you incompetent fucktards' line of 'what the fuck were you doing that morning while the world burned' questioning that should have been directed at Bush's ENTIRE administration from the top down.

I feel they were criminally negligent. And they got away with it.

And instead of impeaching his stupid ass, like the GOP threatens to do with Obama every time someone in his administration so much as farts, everyone lined up behind Bush like good little ducks and voted for a war that had only a tiny tangential link to 9/11. (Our airbase in Saudi Arabia to enforce the Iraq no-fly zone, pissing off the Saudi people/15 hijackers being Saudi, not non-existent, but pretty tenuous link, and our own damn fault)

[Bernardo de La Paz]

34. Yup, you got it. The 1% & neo-Cons & GOPe love conspiracy theories.

Do NOT observe the man behind the curtain. See here: shiny object! Watch this!

Conspiracy theories, with their thousands of intricate moving parts, tie up some very smart people endlessly chasing factoids and inventing new conspirators to handle each refutation. In the meantime, the real nefarious stuff is conducted mostly in plain view on the floor of Congress and committee as bills are passed and in the public sphere of corporate takeovers and out in the environment where regulations are flaunted and ignored.

Plus there are the media types who make a living feeding off conspiracy theories, like Alex Jones.

A third factor, I'm sure, is some people who get a laugh out of planting ridiculous conspiracy memes within minutes of any major event, like a mass shooting of children at a school for example, just to see how many people they can get chasing their tails.

I bet the Koch brothers are the source of the energy behind the climate deniers who assert a massive conspiracy between climate scientists and the "coming" UN-takeover / carbon-taxers.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. Exactly.

There's a photo of the intelligence officer HANDING bush the fucking gist that included this threat before the towers were hit, and practically nothing is made of it, because the idea of questioning the government, is BY ASSOCIATION with all the nutbag theories, too poisoned of a well for the media to touch.

That in itself could be just a fortuitous outcome, but it could also be intentional, I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some PR firms that recognize that cycle of discredit/gloss over/ignore type damage control, and specialize in it.

[zeemike]

44. Yes the crazy conspiracy theories serve them well.

Because if you produce a lot of them it can hid real consperices...
After all if you see WTC7 building fall and it becomes obvious that it was a controlled demolition then you must believe in alien lizard people too...
But that is why Alex Jones is so important to them...he covers up the truth with a big pile of shit so no one will dare dig through it for the truth.

[PowerToThePeople]

51. rec

[RC]

70. bin Laden used to be our guy.

Did you know that? bin Laden worked for us when Russia was losing their ass in Afghanistan.
Did you also know that the outgoing Clinton Administration gave the incoming bu$h administration a two and a half inch think report about the coming attack? The only really important thing missing in the report was where. They did not know where. That report had the time of the attack down to less than a week. The bu$h administration shelved it. They did not act on it. Cheney also had our air defenses stand down on 9/11/2001. Our air defenses were not allowed into the air until after the Pentagon was hit with whatever hit it. Why did he do that?
Some guy on dialysis in a cave in the mountains of Afghanistan, blind sided us and brought down 3 buildings, poked a hole in an unpopulated part of the Pentagon, out smarted the biggest and best military and spy network in the world? You can believe that if you wish, but I will go with the actual facts that fit together and make sense.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

74. Yes, of course I knew Bin Laden received funding from the Reagan administration.

Regarding Clinton's administration warning the Bushies, yes that is true too.

The Bushies were stupid, but they were opportunistic. I do not think they "let it happen" but I do think that when it did happen they seized on it as an opportunity to do Bush Sr one better via taking war to Baghdad.

GWB 43 told Richard Clark on 2001-09-11 to pin it on Iraq.

He would not have done so if it were a LIH conspiracy. He would have had all the machinery in place and would have been confident that it would be pinned on Iraq without having to so reactively exhort Clark.

Yes, it is a lot easier and effective to have a conspiracy with about 21 moving parts (20 in planes + OBL) than a conspiracy involving thousands of officials and government employees and civilian contractors at multiple levels.

Occams Razor applies, as does this aphorism sometimes attributed to Napoleon, but probably older: "Do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

[KansDem]

6. Explains a lot...

I never did buy the "office fires caused Building 7 to collapse" conspiracy theory.

[BillyRibs]

13. In My Line of work

I deal with fuel oil and Burners Black smoke=low temps in a fire. too low to melt steel, 750-1200 isnt even going to get it to glow.

[AtheistCrusader]

27. It doesn't have to get it to glow to explain why WTC7 failed.

The modelling is extensive and has been performed by multiple independent entities.

Somehow I don't think the American Society of Civil Engineers is carrying water for BushCo's invasion of Iraq...

[Progressive dog]

33. Too low to melt steel, so who said it did?

The answer is no one. It wasn't too low to weaken steel.

[marble falls]

22. Because you don't know enough about the particulars of using a lightweight steel ....

skeleton to build a skyscraper and the fireproofing of it. Or what the effect of thousands of gallons of J2 will do to steel with fire after a 188,000lb jetliner has the opportunity to knock the fireproofing made of something like papier mache and gypsum off the steel it has to be a conspiracy?

[zeemike]

49. So what knocked it off at WTC7

And burning jet fuel in an open fire will not melt steel...even light wait steel if there is such a thing...if you see black smoke in a jet fuel fire it is because of incomplete combustion.

[newfie11]

58. Thermite in the paint

[MrMickeysMom]

7. I fully expect this to be moved, but not before I recognize a thing or two...

1) Anyone who isn't disappointed in the MSM by this time in reporting our involvement with Muja Hidean (sp?) who are the ones we funded and the Saudis are part of this organization, has poor memory or isn't paying attention.

2) Even Rachel Maddow can be steered towards TPTB rule book, cause, like... she's really one of the allowable shows bent on delivery of "liberal" news.

3) Just watch a James Bond (Timothy Dalton) last evening, where MI-6's teaming up with the Mja Hadean was totally an acceptable script.

So, off to the "Creative Speculation" with you, BillRibs! For the so called CTers, who will bear the brunt of not being led around like sheep... see you there!

[inch4progress]

12. Believing it was Saudi's, believing the HUGE AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE, makes us sheep?

baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I guess I'm a sheep.
Hope you don't like lamb chops!

[PowerToThePeople]

15. Rec for tower 7.

Media coverage from the "left" is strange. Look at the people who are still in the MSM from the Air America crew. Not necessarily the ones who did the best job, but the ones who tow the Government line. It is my belief that the left was infiltrated and voices shut down on purpose. 9/11 and Bush 2000 "election" were primary left issues for years prior to Iraq. Now they have been regulated to CT. How convenient....

[zeemike]

16. Yep it will be removed.

Because it is like saying the Emperor has not closes...no one wants to hear that...

Only official stories are allowed...anything else is just crazy talk.

[OldRedneck]

19. Bull.

Just great.

First the "9/11 truthers."

What's next for DU . . . birthers?

Then there's always "death panels," "FEMA concentration camps," and Area 51.

When will DU'ers wake up and recognize the REAL threat to the USofA is from the AOG:
http://sonoguy.tripod.com/aog.html

[inch4progress]

20. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

"Shadow drugs"?!?!?!
Where can I get me some of them?

[marble falls]

23. My new favorite website. Brilliant!

[LiberalLovinLug]

32. Because "truth" is the last thing you want

What is laughable is that you and your frightened ilk so afraid of finding out uncomfortable answers to the many questions unanswered that you have to equate even asking for those answers...for "911 truth"...as some kind of comedic entertainment.

[inch4progress]

40. Nah the questions have been ANSWERED! The evidence presented!

The wing nuts come up with a video and scream"LOOK, NOOOOOOOOOOO YOU DON'T SEE IT? WTF ARE YOU BLIND? You don't see that?


Seeeeeeeeeeeeee what?
A FUCKING SHADOW UNDER A PLANE? A shadow that isn't even there the whole time, ya know, cause shadows move depending on where the light lands.

BUT

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, it must be a missle. LMFAO

[PowerToThePeople]

48. No true Scotsman

Just because some of the ideas are far fetched does not mean that the Gov story you have been fed is honest. It also does not mean that anyone who questions the Gov. story is a CT.

[inch4progress]

56. Gov story??? What? The evidence provided the explanation, not the government.

It isn't "the government story". It is an evidentially based explanation. I guess now the government CONTROLS most engineers, scientists and of course Saudi Terrorists as well? Even fux news?

Jeesh.

This isn't Russia, North Korea, Iran or China. The government, fortunately, doesn't control the media in America.

[PowerToThePeople]

68. Only 1 reporter questioned bush in his 8 years.

Helen Thomas was the only WH press corp reporter I heard question ANYTHING out of the White house after 9/11. Even NPR started to tow the line. It was sick. Everyone was giving * a Lewinski. The gov does not control the media, but the people who control the media control the gov.

[inch4progress]

69. What about Maddow and others on MSNBC? I never liked CNN, and Obviously not Fox.

Fox actually pushed the meme that anyone who questioned Bush's Iraq debacle were unpatriotic America haters.

[newfie11]

60. +1 Nt

[Progressive dog]

43. And I never heard of the AOG before this.

But it makes more sense than 911 CT crap. Thanks.

[dotymed]

28. It was very telling

when "our" liberal teevee personalities would not even discuss the possibility that the official version of 9-11 was BS.
Maddow, Maher, etc.. forcefully called anyone (no matter their Progressive credentials and the conservative, highly credentialed professionals...physicists, architects, explosive professionals.. etc..) C.T.'s, nut-jobs, Alex Jones worshippers....

Their total lack of inquisitive journalism, sealed the deal for me. It was obvious that they were allowed to "beat the drum" for some topical Progressive causes but 9-11 was strictly verboten. All non-official versions had to be ridiculed.. We were labeled "Truthers", which I believe is a badge of honor. Truth is crucial but not allowed by corporate paid "entertainers."
It was reminiscent of the movie "V."
Some of the original reporting and video was disappeared after being shot live by local teevee stations.

Yes, 9-11 was an inside job. For it not to have been, unbelievable coincidences (national security drill, unheard of air defense glitches,
100's of eye-witness accounts, "important" people being warned not to fly that day... and the laws of physics were all wrong on that day.

[proReality]

29. To find the truth

all anyone needs to do is look at the very first news reports that came out on the morning of 9/11...before the story began to change.

Reporters were talking about molten steel pouring from the towers; there was no plane at the Pentagon; surveillance videos were confiscated minutes after the crashes; no plane parts, bodies or luggage in PA, just a round crater in the ground and a gouge that looked like wings--a wing-shaped gouge that can be seen in a 1964 USGS aerial photograph at that very spot.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. That's because the news speculates groundlessly without consequence.

For instance, calling it molten steel without checking to see if it's actually maybe a metal like aluminium that can be easily melted with temperatures present in the buildings, in quantities measuring in the tens of thousands of tons. Or copper. Or lead.

[Progressive dog]

45. Yup, I don't think those airplanes were made out of steel,

and they probably were close to the heat source.

[AtheistCrusader]

47. And each of those Alcoa exterior panels that was carried inside by the impacts was

55-60lbs of aluminium. (The planes aren't entirely aluminium, there's a lot of steel too, but yes, an enormous quantity of aluminium as well)

[zeemike]

55. Aluminum melts and flows long before it becomes red hot

And long before it becomes white hot...aluminum melts at a much lower temp that steel.

[AtheistCrusader]

59. That's the point.

It does melt much easier than steel. And it can pool and heat further, if the flooring allows for a depression, then later shifts and the aluminium is free to flow away. Floors were sagging, and partially collapsing well before the main progressive collapse. Debris, liquid and otherwise, can be expected to shift in those conditions.

[zeemike]

64. Oh yes, the ifs.

And what would be the temps of white hot aluminum?...and could jet fuel in an open fire create them?...science says no, but that don't mean anything.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. Jet fuel isn't the hottest fuel source in the building.

Jet fuel is just kerosene. Think bigger.

And the 'if' depression in the flooring is and was expected, engineering-wise, based on the expected resting place of the bulk of the aircraft. You can draw pretty much a straight line in line with the aircraft's approach trajectory, and the path through the building, to the point just inside where the 'molten metal' was observed pouring out of the building.

[zeemike]

67. Yep there was so much of it and it was so hot.

that it was still there weeks after the collaps...who could doubt that?

[AtheistCrusader]

71. Yep.

Completely expected. 110 acres worth of carpet, office equipment, and other flammable shit. Pack that down in a slightly damped concrete oven, and it's going to burn for a while.

Still no evidence of molten steel here though.

[zeemike]

72. No evidence that you will consider that is.

And for your information flammable things like carpet and furniture cannot burn hot enough to melt metal...unless they were made out of charcoal or coke...and had a belows pumping air into them...that has been known sense the iron age.

[AtheistCrusader]

73. Chimney effect has been known since the iron age too.

And can be used to melt plenty of metals. Metals present in the rubble.

You have no evidence of molten steel. Even the 'meteorite' contains no evidence of molten steel. There is steel conduit and rebar sticking out of it. None of it slagged. The 'meteorite' is an example of compression, not molten metal.

[zeemike]

75. i think we have had this discussion before.

And I think you did the same thing...dissmiss all the witnesses and experts that say it is and then claim there is no evedence...all those witnesses have lying eyes.
And for the chimney effect you need a source of air...and it is hard to come by under a pile of rubble...or they would not have needed a bellows in a forge...just put a chimney on it and use scrap wood or some old carpet instead of the expensive charcole...or use jet fuel in a steel mill instead of expensive coke.

[AtheistCrusader]

76. Those 'lying eyes' cannot differentiate between molten steel and molten copper or other metals

at a glance. You need samples. At the least, spectrometer analysis. In essence, you have a bunch of people describing what sort of locomotive the tornado sounded like. Not evidence of molten steel. You have ZERO evidence of such molten steel, and nobody else does either. Nobody's trotted it out in all this time. It's not likely to happen either.

No air in the rubble pile? You realize this is contrary to the testimony of LIVING HUMANS PULLED FROM THE FUCKING RUBBLE RIGHT? News to them, I guess.

Also, I missed the part in the Iron Age, where they had fuel sources like advanced polymer carpets, pressboard wood with bonding agents, etc.

The parallels you draw are laughable.

[proReality]

81. Your acceptance without looking at the evidence is...well...

Open air burning temperatures of jet fuel are 260–315 °C (500–599 °F)

NIST says:"The initial jet fuel fires themselves lasted at most a few minutes." (p. 183/p. 233 of the .pdf)

and

"Jet fuel sprayed onto the surfaces of typical office workstations burned away within a few minutes."
(p. 184)

Link to NIST's main report:
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf

Look at the original news reports, they're on YouTube and easy to find.

If you believe the official story of the WTC attacks, then you must also believe the official story of the Cheney/Bush administration lying us into war on Iraq, allowing thousands upon thousands of innocents to die for no reason. It was well known that Saddam's WMDs were destroyed after the Persian Gulf War and no-fly zones were strictly adhered to, he was a toothless tiger. The part of the world who paid attention knew that, but the sheeple were convinced otherwise. The administration was warned numerous times about an imminent attack on U.S., and they lied about that too. Not a conspiracy theory, it's truth.

Before that, we were lied into Vietnam and lost over 58,000 U.S. troops for no reason. The Gulf of Tonkin incident didn't happen. And how many other times we've been lied into attacking some country because someone needed a bigger bottom line? Eisenhower warned us about the Military/Industrial Complex and this is exactly what he meant.

Though it was rejected by JFK, Operation Northwoods proves that our military isn't above anything, many of the leaders are amoral, along with those who work for the government. They lie to us all the time because they believe the end justifies the means. You need to keep that in mind.

[AtheistCrusader]

86. Oh good grief.

YES THE FUEL WAS CONSUMED. NO SHIT.

The fires SPREAD BEYOND the areas in which the fuel was previously present. If you actually READ THE FUCKING REPORT, which explains how the fires tore down the floor trusses YOU WOULD KNOW THAT.

Tonkin/et al have FUCKALL TO DO with how the towers collapsed.

I do not believe the 'official story' why we were lied into attacking Iraq. Thanks for building a strawman.

[zeemike]

96. And your dismissal of the evidence is laughable.

If I were to think this a funny thing.
There IS evidence of molten steel...but I will not bother to site it because you will rationalize that too....lots of evidence that you ignore or rationalize away with theory's and explanations that you make up as you go along...and with no proof.

But I am all ears on how these "advanced polymers" can burn as hot as charcoal or coke...some evidence please.
But the ancients had wood and burnable things back in the bronze age too...but they could not smelt iron until they used charcoal and forced air...the fire would not get hot enough without it.
But you are saying that jet fuel will do it, with no forced air like in a jet engine that compresses it...bit it does under neath the rubble of a building...that is just unbelievable.

[proReality]

77. Read the NIST report

It says the jet fuel and the office furnishings burned out in minutes. Those things did not create the fire that was over 2000 degrees F.

Do some research on your own, look at the firemen talking about the molten steel pouring out of the building and melting their boots for weeks.

[AtheistCrusader]

80. NIST report did not find molten steel.

Thanks for citing some actual analysis.

The firemen in the video Zeemike linked use the phrase 'molten metal' more often than not, and again, you can't just look at molten metal and know, with nothing more than human eyes, specifically what kind of metal or alloy of metals it is. There are tests for that. Tests not performed by said people.

The explanation is quite simple. The only 'hot' metal we see being pulled out by excavators, is nowhere NEAR the temperature range of molten steel. There are no puddles of later-solidified molten steel. The best evidence the twofers have is the 'meteroite', which is actually evidence of COMPACTION not molten steel.

[proReality]

82. Precisely the point!

It's not a complete report because it wasn't investigated properly...it took over 2 years before Cheney/Bush would allow any kind of investigation.

The 9/11 Commission Report is also incomplete. Read it and begin asking questions that anyone would ask after seeing so many omissions.

[proReality]

84. Here's the molten steel

It only takes 2:21 seconds of your time:

I'm out of here now, have other things to do today. I suggest that if you have time today, you do some research on your own. Look for the news reporting that took place the first couple of days after the towers went down. Guaranteed that you'll begin asking your own questions.

[AtheistCrusader]

87. That's a cutting torch.

They were cutting away metal, trying to get to trapped people. These are some of the same cuts used by twofers to claim thermite cutting charges in the collapse. 45 degree cuts through box columns at ground level. Yes, rescuers were in there TWO DAYS after the collapse, digging, cutting, trying to get to people.

John McLoughlin was rescued at 13 hours.
William Jimeno at 21 hours.
Pasquale Buzzelli was found at 3 hours.
Genelle Guzman at 27 hours.


Those are fucking cutting torches. That's the kind of torch you need to get through big assed chunks of twisted steel.

[proReality]

89. If that makes you feel comfortable.

4:10 video...the surprise begins at 2:06:

2:30 video...FOX & NBC Flight 93 Rare footage-never seen again (very shortly after the crash):

[AtheistCrusader]

90. Yep, caught with your pants down, change the subject quick.

No, goddamnit, you fucking showed a video of the twin towers wreckage. Video of molten metal cascading from a SUSPENDED location above the post-collapse rubble pile.

You fucking show that it was molten metal from the rubble itself, or shut the fuck up.

They were cutting on this shit 24x7 for weeks after the collapse. TRYING TO SAVE LIVES. And here you are, helping make up total horseshit. Fuck that noise.

[AtheistCrusader]

92. Here's a couple more shots of suspended workers cutting above ground.

Box columns look familiar? Twoofers like to use the cuts being performed by these workers as evidence of thermite. DOES IT LOOK FAMILIAR TO YOU?







See the workers directly under this shit?


Care to walk any of that bullshit you posted back?

[greytdemocrat]

30. WooHoo!!!

Nano-thermite!!! So it wasn't a "micro-nuke"!!!

Now I believe!!!

[AtheistCrusader]

36. My money is still on a kinetic-x-ray satellite.

You know, something left over from Raygun's star wars program.

[newfie11]

62. Look it up

Before you dismiss it.

[dipsydoodle]

38. RT does produce some excellent documentaries as all who watch it will know.

Anti comments toward RT derive from one specific article they published a few months back. Prior to that there was little or no rejection of anything they either wrote or showed on their worldwide tv news channel.

There a Guinness advert years ago which simply stated "I've never tried it because I don't like it."

'nuff said.

[newfie11]

63. Most of the stuff on this

Was not made by or for RT. They simply collected information out there and combined it in a short film.

Which is good because from what I see in this thread many people are either to lazy to do research on their own or prefer to not believe there might be powers in our government willing to sacrifice people for profit.

[zeemike]

66. Or it could just be fear of seeing a naked emperor.

and that is a scary thing to some.

[AtheistCrusader]

78. IF there was a conspiracy to collapse the towers from within, by the US government

your happy ass would be running for your life, or disappeared for publicly questioning the story. That's how vast the conspiracy would have to be. There would be manpower to spare to tie up loose ends by eliminating people who dared question the official statements of what happened.

Just the fact that you make these claims tends to suggest they are impossible. If they had the power to pull it off, they'd have the power to silence you too.

[zeemike]

91. Who said it was the US government?

And who is the US government anyway?...the corporatist? The Koch brothers? The Military Industrial Complex?...or our elected officials?

But the beauty of the CT meme is that they don't have to eliminate all those like me that don't believe the bullshit...they have you to make fun of us and dismiss it all, and the compliant media that will not touch it with a ten foot poll because they know they will never work again at that well paid job.
Nope, as long as they control the message I or people like me are no threat at all to them.

[AtheistCrusader]

93. You're no threat to unicorns or the loch ness monster either.

[zeemike]

97. Straw man...n/t

[truth2power]

94. They are silencing people. As i said, downthread. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

95. Check out post 24 and down.

Because some of us take the same view of YOU.

All these cycles all this effort you've misled people into has contributed to the non-prosecution of shitbags like Bush for being utterly and criminally incompetent. Making up horseshit like 'nano-thermite' has made any effort of following up on the NEGLIGENCE of his admin total political plutonium that no one wants to touch.

Nobody wants to sign on to a cause with as much credibility as the 'birfers.

[Sand Wind]

79. More bullshit from Russia-FSB-today...

Trying to disconnect the left from the center left.

[truth2power]

83. BillyRibs - I assume you notice what's happening, here...

Nearly the entire thread has been derailed into the most venomous ad hominem attacks on Richard Gage, AE911truth, Russia Today, and engineers in general.

And Presto! there's no discussion of the issue at hand. Interesting how that works, isn't it? And the nastiness is just over the top...universities "shit out engineers"? Oh dear! They must be really frantic that no one looks at the evidence.

In a way I can understand, because that's all they've got...just set up a terrible caterwaulling whenever anyone tries to discuss the utter absurdity of the 9/11 "official" narrative, and eventually everyone's focused on something entirely unrelated.

The question that comes to mind is, cui bono? Who benefits when people are distracted from discussing the many anomalies surrounding 9/11? Hmm...?

[newfie11]

85. True that!!

[AtheistCrusader]

88. Yawn.

That poster made a claim about the number of engineers/architects that claim to question the official account/report(s). That makes a comparison of total number of engineers/population relevant.

[cpwm17]

98. "Ad hominem attacks" doesn't mean what you think it means

I presented proof that Richard Gage is lying about WTC7. That goes to the heart of Richard Gage's claims about WTC7.

AE911truth is Richard Gage, with signatures of some folks with expertise in separate fields. It's his poor attempt at argument from authority.

[seabeyond]

99. Conspiracy Theory. nt