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On the Sexualization of Young Girls (Original Post) redqueen May 2012 OP
Good lord! cyberswede May 2012 #1
I remember that video WhoIsNumberNone May 2012 #2
Heartbreaking! LASlibinSC May 2012 #3
I agree it is heartbreaking. redqueen May 2012 #5
It does, and it has for a very long time. PDJane May 2012 #38
That's just grotesque! Speck Tater May 2012 #4
I suppose part of it is just capitalism. redqueen May 2012 #6
I just don't get it. Speck Tater May 2012 #9
Some really good points buried under a lot of moralistic and prudish conservatism... DutchLiberal May 2012 #7
Couldn't have possibly said it better myself. AverageJoe90 May 2012 #10
What?! Somebody actually read all 3 pages worth of arguments I wrote? DutchLiberal May 2012 #11
I did.. SemperEadem May 2012 #13
Wow, great points, but I should ask, would this be an accurate shorter statement? alp227 May 2012 #14
I think you miss the point .... DaDeacon May 2012 #18
Thanks, and you got it almost all right! DutchLiberal May 2012 #20
You think that's my position? Or you mean that's the position I'm criticizing? DutchLiberal May 2012 #19
The position you were criticizing. alp227 May 2012 #21
I agree there is some overreaction. However, MadrasT May 2012 #25
I don't disagree with the premise of the video entirely. DutchLiberal May 2012 #28
Capitalism and corporate LASlibinSC May 2012 #8
part of the problem SemperEadem May 2012 #15
IMO there is more to it than lazy parenting. redqueen May 2012 #16
I recall very vividly at age 11 going through it SemperEadem May 2012 #17
we do not have a tv Tumbulu May 2012 #27
If Fijians were cut off from television SemperEadem May 2012 #12
i think the video is pretty clear, and parents, especially with daughters can easily seabeyond May 2012 #22
"Fashion" magazines are the Worst Sarcasticus May 2012 #23
Perhaps that's how it started? redqueen May 2012 #24
No, some people are trying to ignore and reject biology because it doesn't fit their narrative. DutchLiberal May 2012 #29
Now I'm REALLY glad we don't watch TV. E-FUCKING-GADS! That's just so wrong. HopeHoops May 2012 #26
Yes, the dolls were particularly bad. DutchLiberal May 2012 #30
The "slut dance" contest at the beginning was rather disturbing too. HopeHoops May 2012 #31
The "slut dance" is problematic for more than one reason. DutchLiberal May 2012 #32
When guys do it, it's more of a "dork dance", but the video was "girls". As for "toning it down"... HopeHoops May 2012 #33
I couldn't agree more. DutchLiberal May 2012 #34
It's also the movements, looks, and attitudes. I'm not for FCC censorship, but parents? HopeHoops May 2012 #35
'Sex sells', but we've known that for a long time and honestly, I don't see anything wrong with it.. DutchLiberal May 2012 #36
Yeah, it is really stupid. But you hit another point - Gray Poupon? HopeHoops May 2012 #37
Kick Sarcasticus May 2012 #39

cyberswede

(26,117 posts)
1. Good lord!
Mon May 7, 2012, 02:20 PM
May 2012

The parents of those little girls dancing at the beginning should be charged with child abuse. That is appalling.

WhoIsNumberNone

(7,875 posts)
2. I remember that video
Mon May 7, 2012, 02:30 PM
May 2012

It drew quite a bit of outrage when it first came out. Most everybody found it extremely creepy. The mental picture of pervs downloading that video to add to their stash was unavoidable.

LASlibinSC

(269 posts)
3. Heartbreaking!
Mon May 7, 2012, 02:35 PM
May 2012

some of these girls seem to feel that something is wrong with them, but can't quite put their finger on it. Just a vague 'Im not right' feeling. This is so insidious to all' tweens' of both genders thus reinforcing the blatantly sexual behavior. Jesus..makes me want to cry AND scream.Thanks for the thread, this is so important.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
5. I agree it is heartbreaking.
Mon May 7, 2012, 04:08 PM
May 2012

And it is my pleasure to try to raise awareness of what our culture does to girls as they become women. It literally dehumanizes them.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
6. I suppose part of it is just capitalism.
Mon May 7, 2012, 04:11 PM
May 2012

Sexy young girls seem to be very popular. Britney, Lindsay, Miley. Popular with their preteen girl audience as well as those who do countdowns.

 

Speck Tater

(10,618 posts)
9. I just don't get it.
Mon May 7, 2012, 06:49 PM
May 2012

I don't see little girls dressed up that way as anything but disgusting. I can't imagine anyone thinking that's OK, or worse that it's sexy. As a father of two daughters and grandfather of 4 granddaughters, I just wish that people who objectify children that way could be kept far away from any and all children. A society that thinks that's OK is a sick society.

 

DutchLiberal

(5,744 posts)
7. Some really good points buried under a lot of moralistic and prudish conservatism...
Mon May 7, 2012, 06:18 PM
May 2012

That is, in a nutshell, what I think about this rather amateurish video. I'll explain why in greater detail below.

First, let me explain that I totally "get" what is being said and argued in the video. I get the theories and narrative and arguments put forth by the maker. I just don't agree with most of it. Or, to reverse that: just because I don't agree with it, doesn't mean I "don't get it". Telling people, men AND women, who disagree that they "don't get it" is, in my opinion, condescending and does not contribute to a good and honest discussion. I felt it was important to stress this.

Now, about the video: I agree with the members above who have voiced their disgust for the sexualization of the little pre-pubescent girls. Like beauty contests for babies/toddlers that you often see in the US, this seems to me as nothing but an excuse for pedophiles to live out their fantasies. (Let it be noted, by the way, that I'm not against anybody fantasizing about anything they want, as long as they don't harm others. I'm not a member of the thought police, so what is in anybody's head is really none of my business.) There is nothing sexual about a pre-pubescent girl's body. Never has been, never will. That's why nature didn't give them any sexual features (no breasts, no pubic hair etc.). To dress up kids that way seems to me like sending a signal to others that it is logical to look at kids that way, which of course it isn't.

I also agree that things like the pole-dancing toy are not acceptable. I'm all for adult women choosing to do that as a profession, but it's not a game little girls should play. There is no reason for them to ever do that, nor do I believe any child would think of "playing pole-dancing" on her own. Kids should be stimulated to use their intellect and their creativity. What parent in his right mind would buy a thing like that for his kid?

Then came some examples about which I'm torn. Advertisements for bra's and underwear were used as examples of the 'sexualization' of young girls. Maybe it's me, but don't girls NEED bra's from a certain age on? And if you're a company trying to sell them, wouldn't it then make sense to use a model the age of the targeted demographic instead of a lady in her forties? Honestly, I don't see anything inherently sexy about the ads shown here. Had the ads been two lesbian twelve year olds kissing, then, yes, I would see the point. Still, I can kinda see the point of the maker here and see how somebody COULD find those ads to be 'sexualizing'.

Then the video steered in the direction I feared it would go when I clicked on the thread. Predictably, then came the images of teen singers and actresses, like Vanessa Hudgens and Selena Gomez (my personal favorite, by the way). To use them as examples of 'sexualization' I find not only prudish, but also shallow. These girls look good, they are attractive and beautiful and they are being made to look that way. That's how it's always been in the entertainment world. For both women AND men, I might add. Movie and television stars have always been cast not only because of their acting skills, but just as much because of their good looks. For instance, Cary Grant and Grace Kelly were both great actors, but would they have become international superstars if they hadn't been that attractive? I highly doubt it. People like to see attractive people on-screen. Has been that way for a long time.

Should we NOT give Selena Gomez a starring role in a tv series because she's pretty? Should we hold it against Vanessa Hudgens that she's sexy? Why shouldn't singers or actresses look good? Personally, I'm a fan of Bob Dylan and other 1960's-1970's musical heroes, so I could care less about musician's appearances, but most teens are not even remotely interested in that type of music. They want to see young people because they can identify with them, and like I said, most people like to see pretty people, so why is it a strange idea to use a singer who also looks beautiful?

I think arguments like this, on the 'sexualization' of young girls, often go too far; they go over-the-top, because they over-react. They act as if images and videos of young women looking sexy are the same as pornographic images of young girls. Hyperbole from my side apart, that IS how I often perceive the over-reaction about 'sexualization'. The moral panic is often not warranted. Selena Gomez in a short dress or Vanessa Hudges in tight pants is not hardcore porn. Nor is it 'dehumanizing' them. Frankly, I find it much more dehumanizing to them when feminists say they ARE being dehumanized. Is it really true that making pictures of a pretty girl like Selena in a sexy pose devalues her? How is that even possible? She has value, right? We agree on that, don't we? She's an actress, she's a singer and an entertainer. She works hard for her money. I think that's deserving of respect. I don't get how that respect magically flies out the window the second she dresses up pretty and has her picture taken. I think it's disrespectful of OTHER women to tell these hard-working young girls that they devalue themselves/are being devalued.

Besides, why is the argument never made for the other side? I mean, for the male side. Young boys are also photographed and filmed in ways that show their physical attractiveness. Think about Robert Pattinson of 'Twilight'-fame, or Justin Bieber (grmbl!), or so many other examples past and present. I vividly remember my younger sister having her entire bedroom decorated with Backstreet Boys posters. There have been and still are lots of those boybands. Are they about musical qualities? About artistry? No, they are about a bunch of pretty boys who have to look appealing to get the young teen girl demographic to buy their albums. How come I never hear anybody about the supposed 'sexualization' of young men? What, it's only a problem when it's about girls/women? Is it "different", AGAIN, because men 'are privileged'/'have not been oppressed for centuries'/'the patriarchy' etc.? Or do we WANT to further the idea that young women everywhere are always victims of 'the male gaze'?

I've read quite a number of articles arguing the exact opposite, saying young women USE their sexuality to be strong, to be in command. Haven't we heard that message ever since Madonna in the 1980's? Why do attractive women who show their beauty and their sexiness have to be portrayed as victims? If you see the success the likes of Selena, Vanessa, Miley etc. have; the lives they live; the money they have, it's hard to see them as victims. I think they have made a good name for themselves and they have worked hard to get where they are. And no, they haven't shied away from showing the world their beauty. But then again: why SHOULD they? What is inherently wrong with that?

Oh, I know people will say its puts a huge emotional weight on teenage girls who aren't supermodel-perfect (like 99% of all people). That it puts pressure on girls to look and behave exactly like the girls they see in the media. I agree about that. It's not only young girls, though. I think lots of mature women (AND men) feel exactly the same, constantly striving to be like the perfect, handsome people they see on tv and in the movies. Me, I never tried that and never felt bad about it. I looked around in my high school, in my family and in my circle of friends and I realized nobody in real life looked like the models in the magazines and on tv. Just like I knew why Bruce Willis could single-handedly blow 15 internationally wanted terrorists to pieces and not get killed in 'Die Hard' but nobody in real life could do that: because I knew the difference between fiction and reality. Now, I realize that apparently lots and lots of teen girls don't get this notion and they still strive to look like the models they see in the media. Should we, therefore, not show pretty girls in the media anymore? Or should we teach our children about the fakeness and the falseness of the media? Everybody in the generation after me literally grew up with the computer; everybody knows Photoshop. So everybody should also know lots of images we see in the media are photoshopped. Why not Media Training as a subject in high school?

Before I go on about the part where the high school students are being interviewed: cartoons as examples of 'sexualization'? Really? People really think that young girls see Disney's Ariel or Jasmine and want to look like them? What's sexualizing about cartoons anyway? They're drawn characters who go onto impossible and fantastic adventures, that's all there is to them. Seeing such innocent things as 'sexualizing' is one of the reasons why these arguments are always so overly panicky, because it's always taken to such absurd lenghts. I see the point about pre-schoolers being dressed up as pole dancers and I can imagine bra-commercials advertised at young girls can be considered sexualizing, but when you throw in something as benign as cartoons, your theory becomes so far-fetched that it's hard to take it seriously. Cartoons aren't supposed to be taken seriously in the first place. Parents often see more in them than children anyway.

Now onto the part with the interviews with the highschool students. I think these are overly moralistic and, yes, prudish. Just to rebut the kind of criticism I expect to get: no, you're not a prude if you haven't had sex in high school and no, you're not a prude when you're a young girl and you won't put out or do other things to satisfy boys that you don't really want to do. That's clear, I hope? What IS prudish and conservative, in my view, is that the maker of the video is acting so shocked about what she hears from these girls. "Imagine that: teens are having sex! Or they want sex! Boys want pretty girls! Looks are important to them! My God, the horror!" Seriously, how does this drama relate to the 'sexualization' of young girls in the media? Does the maker think that, without mass media, teens would not want to have sex? Boys wouldn't think about sex without the media? How does the maker think things went in those tens of thousands of years before mass media? Teens want sex because they're teens. It's nature calling. That's why girls start ovulating and boys start to produce sperm. And boys pick out the most attractive girls because their evolutionary instinct tells them they will produce the best offspring. Even though they don't want to have kids and probably use contraception, they're still wired that way. Girls, the same: girls also seek out the most handsome guys. That's just something that isn't told in the video, because it doesn't fit the one-sided narrative of the maker. At my high school, girls were all going for the 'player' kind of guys: a couple of years older, tall, handsome, strong. Sure they cheated left and right, but because of their macho attitude they got the attention of most of the girls. Let's not pretend that's not true; everybody knows those stories and has witnessed those things. Again, this is evolution speaking: girls looking for the males best fitted to protect her and her offspring.

Speaking of evolution, this brings me to another element of the video: the idea that it's not natural to look at young girls as sexually desirable. I hate to break it to you, but the idea that girls that age are not 'supposed to be' attractive to men is a societal 'rule' that we have put in place a mere 100-150 years ago. Biologically speaking, there is no inherently objective reason why girls that age aren't attractive to men. I know there has been an effort of some feminists, also on DU, to whitewash this history and to try to erase biological and evolutionary factors. It's now said by some women that "they give men more credit than to be slaves of their biological urges" as a reason to pretend biology doesn't exist. It's Newspeak, plain and simple. In their line of reasoning, pointing out biological and natural reasons why men are in fact attracted to young girls is now "making up excuses" by men who have to "rationalize their unnatural desires". It's framing, that's all there is to it. Objectively speaking, there is no reason why a girl with developed mature sexual features (breasts, hips, pubic hair -but you can't see that, of course) should not be attractive to a man.

In other words: the media don't have to "sell" us the idea that young girls are sexy and attractive. We already know that and have known that for tens of thousands of years, when it was very common for young girls to marry much older men and have their children. And to beat you to the strawman: no, just because slavery was once acceptable doesn't mean we should resort to it now. I'm not advocating old men marrying 14 year olds; I'm just saying no media need to 'sexualize' young women for us to notice they're sexy.

I see I have just written three pages worth of argumentation, so I'm gonna wrap it up here. In summation: no, I don't think thongs for five-year olds are acceptable or desirable. No, I don't think 'hooker dolls' are appropriate toys for girls. Yes, I think it is problematic to put pre-pubescent girls on display in a sexual way. Had the video sticked with that theme, it would've been a good video and a good argument. But once it drifted into the far-fetched argument that teen actresses, singers and even cartoons are 'sexualizing' young girls, it falls apart, because there's nothing unnatural about teens having or wanting to have sex; there's nothing strange about both boys AND girls going after attractive peers; the media didn't instill these ideas in us, we already inhibited those ideas biologically; there is a double standard since nobody is concerned about young boys, which makes this video seem at least a BIT disingenuous (as if nobody pines for Robert Pattinson and if Aladdin or Hercules are realistically animated!); and there is nothing wrong in and of itself with being a sexy girl, like Selena Gomez. Why would it be dehumanizing to show the world your beauty? If you work as hard as she does: good for her.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
10. Couldn't have possibly said it better myself.
Mon May 7, 2012, 07:12 PM
May 2012

I'm also skeptical about the Fiji study. Doesn't Alexandra know that that country has been under military rule since 1987?

alp227

(32,068 posts)
14. Wow, great points, but I should ask, would this be an accurate shorter statement?
Mon May 7, 2012, 07:48 PM
May 2012

The attitude you summarized in your post is essentially what the anti-woman fundamentalist Muslims also express, right?

 

DaDeacon

(984 posts)
18. I think you miss the point ....
Mon May 7, 2012, 08:30 PM
May 2012
The attitude you summarized in your post is essentially what the anti-woman fundamentalist Muslims also express, right?


Not at all I think the idea that the the writer stated was one of sexual acceptance rather than repression as say many Islamic states may have. I don't want any grown man ( or woman) looking at a child in lust however, I don't want all young woman walking around in fear and hate of their own body. Many of the examples used in this film and critiqued by the writer are "young women (18+)" who have been playing the role of children much too long for their own good. Thus when we see them act as sexual beings, not asexual real life cartoons we have mixed emotions on the subject. For once in a long while it is good to see a thought provoking and well written response to a post. Kudos to you dutch.
 

DutchLiberal

(5,744 posts)
20. Thanks, and you got it almost all right!
Mon May 7, 2012, 09:56 PM
May 2012
Many of the examples used in this film and critiqued by the writer are "young women (18+)" who have been playing the role of children much too long for their own good. Thus when we see them act as sexual beings, not asexual real life cartoons we have mixed emotions on the subject.

I agree with what you wrote about sexual acceptance and that it's better than repression. That's exactly what I meant to say. However, in my post I was not only talking about what you described as "18+ women" and neither was the video. The video was making the point that teenage girls (below the age of 18) are (also) being 'sexualized' by the mass media. I argued that the mass media isn't needed for men to notice the beauty and the attraction in young girls; that there are biological and evolutionary reasons why they are appealing to men. (Reasons some feminists want to deny because they think it's creepy/perverse.)

I don't see how publicizing a series of photo's of a 16 year old Selena Gomez on vacation, in bikini, is 'sexualizing' her. Nor do I see how the multiple professional photoshoots she did before she turned 18 were 'devaluing' her. Sure, there will always be men who'll see those photo's and only see her as a body. But those are the kind of men who will see all women as objects REGARDLESS. Either you're a jackass or you aren't, is what I'm trying to say. There are men in all shapes and sizes. To say a sexy photoshoot of a 'legal' minor makes ALL men see her as nothing but an object, is both unfair to all men and to the girl in question. I know *I* don't think of her as nothing more but a pretty face/body. I respect her for whom she is and she does. I think it's devaluing of OTHER women to say that she's nothing more than a pretty face/body for doing those photoshoots. Why can't she work hard and make her own career and simultaneously do sexy shoots? Why not walk and chew gum at the same time?

And again: why is it a problem when young girls are being thought of as desirable and not when it happens to young boys? I never heard anybody about the problem of the 'sexualization' of Zac Efron, Justin Bieber (grmbl!) or Robert Pattinson. It's ironic that the same feminists who are fighting the double standard that guys get considered 'studs' when they act sexually pro-active and girls are considered 'sluts' for doing the same thing (and rightly so, by the way, that attitude IS sexist and should be fought tooth and nail), are perfectly okay with ignoring young boys being turned into sexually attractive males, while shaming young girls for doing exactly the same.

I want to stress that I don't underestimate for a second the impact the beauty-, fashion- and advertisement industry has on young girls. I'm no doctor, but I think it's one of the reasons why anorexia is purely a Western disease: young girls wanting to look like ridiculously thin models and starving themselves to achieve it. Wouldn't happen in Africa or Latin-America, I guess. So I recognize that. I just don't think the solution is to ban all media images of attractive young girls. It's better to teach and educate them about the media and to make them aware of the fact that it's unrealistic to want to look like Hollywood stars. Like I learned I would never be a John McClane.

Edit: yep, just as I expected: in one of the feminist forums, a member is already mocking the factually true statement that biology makes men notice attractive young women. Including barfing emoticon! Because noticing a beautiful young woman is just worth puking! And science is just over-rated anyway.
 

DutchLiberal

(5,744 posts)
19. You think that's my position? Or you mean that's the position I'm criticizing?
Mon May 7, 2012, 09:10 PM
May 2012

Thanks for your post.

I think that, if you take the position of the maker of the video much, much further, you eventually get to the position of anti-women muslims, who think that women should cover their beauty (wear headscarves or even burquas) so that men don't get tempted by it. Of course this is hyperbole on my part, but the logical consequence of the maker's critique would be that young women stop dressing and/or behaving in a sexual way, so as to not look appealing to men.

I'm completely against that. I'm in favor of healthy, equal relationships between men and women. I just don't like the bullshitting that's going on sometimes, like that we have to pretend we're not interested in someone's appearance because that's deemed shallow or superficial. The first impression you get from people is largely based on their physical appearance. That's a fact. When we go into a bar or disco and we're looking to hook up with someone, who are we going to? The ones who attract us physically. There's nothing shallow about admitting that, but some would want to guilt-trip us into believing that. After we get to know someone and know more about his/her character, we can better judge whether or not that person is still interesting to us. But most of the times, it starts with physical attraction.

I've always wondered why Afghan or Pakistani men would want all women only covered in burqas on the streets. How are you gonna meet a woman that way? Seems hard to flirt that way to me. But they want women to wear those things so that men won't look at them. Which (again, watch the hyperbole) sometimes sounds a lot like some things I've read on DU. Some people have said men shouldn't look at women for her physical beauty alone. Well, when I'm walking on the streets and I pass a total stranger, what else is there to do? Should I start an entire conversation with every attractive woman I meet? Or should I put blinders on? Some people on DU have said it's devaluing to women to look at them that way. I really don't see HOW looking at an attractive girl could devalue her. If I ran up to her, ripped her clothes off and called her a dirty whore, yes, then I would be devaluing her. But noticing her beauty? Why is that bad?

I think it's moralistic and, yes, prudish, to think that way. Sexualizing pre-pubescent girls, thongs for 5 year olds, push-up bra's for little kids, yes, that is sick. Recognizing that a sexy teenager is sexy: that's human nature. I'm sorry if some people can't handle that reality and have to pretend biology doesn't exist...

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
25. I agree there is some overreaction. However,
Tue May 8, 2012, 09:49 AM
May 2012
I think arguments like this, on the 'sexualization' of young girls, often go too far; they go over-the-top, because they over-react. They act as if images and videos of young women looking sexy are the same as pornographic images of young girls. Hyperbole from my side apart, that IS how I often perceive the over-reaction about 'sexualization'. The moral panic is often not warranted. Selena Gomez in a short dress or Vanessa Hudges in tight pants is not hardcore porn. Nor is it 'dehumanizing' them. Frankly, I find it much more dehumanizing to them when feminists say they ARE being dehumanized. Is it really true that making pictures of a pretty girl like Selena in a sexy pose devalues her? How is that even possible? She has value, right? We agree on that, don't we? She's an actress, she's a singer and an entertainer. She works hard for her money. I think that's deserving of respect. I don't get how that respect magically flies out the window the second she dresses up pretty and has her picture taken. I think it's disrespectful of OTHER women to tell these hard-working young girls that they devalue themselves/are being devalued.


The problem arises when young girls equate the idolization and success of these stars as being a direct result of their sexuality. And then attempting to emulate that sexuality as a path to social acceptance and success and wealth. Young girls are getting the message that their worth as humans is determined by their sexuality and their usefulness as sexual objects.

I was a young girl once, so I am speaking from experience not from feminist book theory.

Besides, why is the argument never made for the other side? I mean, for the male side. Young boys are also photographed and filmed in ways that show their physical attractiveness. Think about Robert Pattinson of 'Twilight'-fame, or Justin Bieber (grmbl!), or so many other examples past and present. I vividly remember my younger sister having her entire bedroom decorated with Backstreet Boys posters. There have been and still are lots of those boybands. Are they about musical qualities? About artistry? No, they are about a bunch of pretty boys who have to look appealing to get the young teen girl demographic to buy their albums. How come I never hear anybody about the supposed 'sexualization' of young men? What, it's only a problem when it's about girls/women? Is it "different", AGAIN, because men 'are privileged'/'have not been oppressed for centuries'/'the patriarchy' etc.? Or do we WANT to further the idea that young women everywhere are always victims of 'the male gaze'?


The argument should be made for the other side. It wasn't made for the other side here, because that is not the subject of the video. The lack of "the other side" being presented here does not negate the argument that is presented.

But I will give you an example, though it's not about a really young man. The trumpet player Chris Botti. There are other trumpet players who far surpass Botti in talent and technical skill and musicianship. Botti became a success based on his sex appeal. He's easy on the eyes, as they say. He looks great on TV and he looks great on an album cover. That's just as wrong.
 

DutchLiberal

(5,744 posts)
28. I don't disagree with the premise of the video entirely.
Tue May 8, 2012, 02:12 PM
May 2012

There are real instances in which young girls are being treated like objects. You will never hear me deny that. For instance, think about all those videoclips where scarcely clad or half-naked women do nothing but dance around some rapper, slapping their asses and calling them his "bitches". Now that is degrading, that is dehumanizing. If that is what's meant with "sexualization", I'm totally in agreement with the maker of the video.

It's just too bad that he maker, like some (by far not all!) feminists on DU, has to take it to extremes by declaring all forms of young girls showing their beauty 'sexualizing' or 'dehumanizing'. I think there's a world of difference between those girls in the rappers' videos and other examples from the video, like dressing up pre-pubescent girls in sexual ways, and mainstream singers and actresses taking photoshoots stressing their beauty. Those photoshoots often compliment magazine articles about their work. So when Selena Gomez has a new movie out, the article will be about that movie and her work on it and the shoot will only compliment the article. I don't see why it is bad for an actress or singer to be made to look her most attractive for a shoot like that. I think they, themselves, would also want to look the best they can. But that's universal. I'm no Brad Pitt, but when I'm going out, I also want to look the best I can. I think that goes for everybody.

You can argue, of course, about the need to look attractive. You could argue: what has looking sexy got to do with your singing or acting qualities? Well, frankly, nothing. But it comes in handy when you want to make it in the business, because, like I said, we would rather watch attractive people. It's not like you can't make it without good looks anyway. Otherwise people like Steve Buscemi or Philip Seymour Hoffman wouldn't have become such famous and respected actors. (I'm not gonna name a woman here, out of fear of possibly offending someone.)

I agree that the lack of one side of the argument being presented does not negate the argument that is presented. However, I feel it is deliberately skewed. I believe the side of young boys/men being 'sexualized' (though I personally don't see it that way, but for argument's sake I continue to call it that) is being deliberately ignored, because it doesn't fit in the narrative that 'the patriarchy' uses and exploits young girls, who are turned into victims because of this supposed exploitation and dehumanization. When you look at the fact that young male idols like Efron and Bieber (grmbl) are being treated THE EXACT SAME WAY, the narrative of the exploited teen girls falls apart. Because if it's really a conscious effort by men to 'objectify' girls, then why would they do the same to their own 'kind'?

I take very seriously the issue that young girls think you can only be successful if you're sexy, attractive and 'perfect'. I remember watching the movie 'Videocracy' and being horrified by it. Have you ever seen it? It's about television in Berlusconi's Italy where women are reduced to pieces of meat, assisting horny old hosts in nothing more than a bra or bikini; and the movie shows how more and more girls are aspiring to be those girls on tv, because it's valued so much.

But again, I see a world of difference between that and young singers, actresses and cartoons. That even cartoons are named seems so absurd to me and to me, it really undercuts the arguments made in the video. It's hard to take it seriously after that. It's also too bad that those things (attractive young teen stars and cartoons) get lumped in with all the other stuff, which I agree IS bad. I have a far more nuanced view on it, as I've tried to explain, but it seems like you always have to take a black or white position. It's always either-or. Either you're completely in agreement that everything shown and mentioned in the video is sexualizing and dehumanizing and you're a true supporter of women and womens' rights; or you believe everything shown is fine and dandy and thus you are a sexist who objectifies girls. Give a nuanced reply and you get automatically lumped into the latter camp. Or you get accused of 'ignoring the problem'.

Also, I sometimes get the impression that the fact that men like to look at attractive young girls/women is in itself considered a problem. It's never said openly, but I think it's inferred a lot in discussions like these. (I'm not saying you did that.) To this day, STILL nobody has been able to explain to me why it's devaluing or degrading to a girl when I or another man look at her because of her beauty. I see lots of women on the everyday: on the street, in the bus, at work, in the store etc. Whenever I see an attractive one, I look. I've seen entire rants on DU bemoaning this. Why? Do women not look at a handsome man when they see one?

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

LASlibinSC

(269 posts)
8. Capitalism and corporate
Mon May 7, 2012, 06:35 PM
May 2012

greed is the root of the problem. Just because Disney doesn't sexualize girls in it's programming doesn't mean they aren't part of the problem. They have big money invested in pushing young girls toward products that increase their bottom line. Parents, not all, seem to have thrown in the towel. They are just happy that their kid is 'normal'. The very idea normal is no longer NORMAL doesn't come into play. Parenting is the hardest job on the planet. Add in forces that put profit above everything and actually change culture and it becomes nightmarish

SemperEadem

(8,053 posts)
15. part of the problem
Mon May 7, 2012, 07:50 PM
May 2012

is parking one's child, pre-pubescent tweener in front of disney channel for hours on end, watching all of these shows in which Disney packages their young stars one way and when that star grows up and wants to throw off the shackles of their Disney packaging (Christina Aguilera and Brittany Spears for instance) and act like the 21 yr olds they became (meaning : they're of the age of majority now, not a tweener anymore), it's a problem for the parent who allowed Disney channel to be the babysitter and allowed their kid to glom onto fandom and thrall of that child star.

Yes, parenting is a hard job; it's also a duty and an obligation that one signs up for when they have the child to bring that child up with a balanced outlook on life; to talk to them; to make them turn off the television instead of turning to stone in front of the big screen for hours at a stretch.

I was a single parent and I managed to do it. And even with all of the loving and acceptance I showered on my child, she still went through what I call her "black period" where she felt she was ugly, awkward and worthless. It was hard work reaching down into the mandibles of that and pulling her out, but I did. She came out on the other side with the most amazing confidence and self appreciation and self worth. Had I just parked her in front of the Disney channel and left her to her own devices, there is no telling what I would have been dealing with later on.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
16. IMO there is more to it than lazy parenting.
Mon May 7, 2012, 07:58 PM
May 2012

There shouldn't even be a 'black period'. If women weren't dehumanized and their bodies commodified, girls likely wouldn't go through this.

Even kids who aren't babysat by the TV still absorb these messages, from videos, ads, movies and more. They pull away, and start to place more importance on what their peer group and society says than their parents. Girls and boys both are bombarded with the message that that how girls look is the most important thing about them.

Have you read Reviving Ophelia?

SemperEadem

(8,053 posts)
17. I recall very vividly at age 11 going through it
Mon May 7, 2012, 08:05 PM
May 2012

over the fact that I was convinced I was the only female child who was never going to grow up and have a period like all of my friends were. I was flat as a board and nothing was sprouting. That was 1971. The difference with me was that I had a mother who didn't give a fuck and I had to talk myself down off the ledge.

So, yes, to one extent or another, some girls go through an intense frustration with their bodies, but many times, it has nothing to do with advertising, cosmetics, teen singers or whatever.

Yes, I read Reviving Ophelia. Long long time ago.

Tumbulu

(6,292 posts)
27. we do not have a tv
Tue May 8, 2012, 12:57 PM
May 2012

my daughter is very busy and active with many things....but these images have permeated the culture so thoroughly that she is now becoming effected in a negative way by it all. She is only 11, but I can see it so clearly.

I find it dehumanizing that capitalists are allowed to sexualize anyone to sell products.

SemperEadem

(8,053 posts)
12. If Fijians were cut off from television
Mon May 7, 2012, 07:27 PM
May 2012

and eating disorders were not a problem, then how and who introduced the televisions to the Fijians? Why was their way of life not just taken as a given and them left alone so as to not be dragged into this shameful influence?

way to go in fucking up a pristine culture. I guess EVERY female of the face of the earth HAS to join the self loathing western female sorority.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
22. i think the video is pretty clear, and parents, especially with daughters can easily
Mon May 7, 2012, 11:25 PM
May 2012

recognize the issues in this video. as can most people with common sense. it is a matter of making people aware, especially if they dont have this around, where the flags would be raised.

 

Sarcasticus

(41 posts)
23. "Fashion" magazines are the Worst
Tue May 8, 2012, 07:28 AM
May 2012

In the late 80s, years before Britney Spears came along, 12-year-old girls could be seen in the pages of Glamour, Elle, sometimes Redbook modeling lingerie.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
24. Perhaps that's how it started?
Tue May 8, 2012, 07:55 AM
May 2012

People somehow have become convinced that teenagers acting like hypersexualized caricatures is somehow a natural behavior for them, and grown men's fixation on them somehow biologically predetermined.

 

DutchLiberal

(5,744 posts)
29. No, some people are trying to ignore and reject biology because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Tue May 8, 2012, 02:43 PM
May 2012

It's a reversal of facts; a deliberate attempt to block out any proven data that conflicts with a pre-determined ideology. The cognitive dissonance sometimes reminds me of conservatives, who also insist that teenagers never get interested in sex by themselves, but it's always something from 'outside' which gets morally bad ideas into their heads.

Decades ago, it was said that rock 'n' roll made otherwise good and wholesome boys and girls into sex-crazed teens. Elvis 'the Pelvis' was the source of evil, corrupting the clean minds of young people with filthy thoughts. Before Elvis, boys and girls in high school would never even have thought about sex! There is no sexual drive! People don't have the urge to procreate! We do not feel the need to preserve the species! We're not mammals!

Saying that pictures and videos of dressed up, good looking, sexy young girls are the reason why teen boys and grown men look at them and are attracted to them, is exactly the same as a conservative saying sexual education in school is the reason that teenagers start experimenting with sex. If you do not acknowledge the biological fact that girls develop mature sexual body features from age 12-13 up, start getting their first period, thus become ready for child-birth (again, strictly biologically speaking) and THEREFORE, as a consequence of this, start to get interesting to men of all ages... you are denying science. You are denying facts. No amount of ideologically injected claims of moral superiority will chance that.

Long before there was anything like mass media, older men have been with young(er) girls for thousands of years. If you think that's not due to biological or evolutionary causes, then what is the cause? There were no videoclips, photoshoots or 'Hannah Montana' in ancient Rome, Athens or Egypt. There was no Disney cartoons or teen singers during the Middle Ages or the Renaissance.

People have NOT "become convinced that teenagers acting like hypersexualized caricatures is somehow a natural behavior for them, and grown men's fixation on them somehow biologically predetermined." YOU and others have become convinced that biology is used as an "excuse" by men to lust after young(er) girls/women. The "excuse"-narrative fits your ideology about 'the patriarchy' always and everywhere oppressing all women. The less contrived theory, that of human nature, doesn't fit that and thus has to be made to look suspicious...

Girs like older men, because they are more fit to provide for her and her offsping. Men like younger girls, because they are healthier and more likely to produce strong offspring. Has been that way for millennia.

I wish it could be a bit less black and white than that. I have done it up-thread and so have some other people. There IS real 'hyper-sexualization' in some cases, as I have pointed out above. But that's no reason to lump everything shown in the video together and label it all 'degrading or dehumanizing', because it is not. And it's also no reason to simply ridicule and mock basic scientific facts. I don't get why it always has to be either-or.

 

HopeHoops

(47,675 posts)
26. Now I'm REALLY glad we don't watch TV. E-FUCKING-GADS! That's just so wrong.
Tue May 8, 2012, 11:03 AM
May 2012

Hooker Bratz dolls??????

 

DutchLiberal

(5,744 posts)
30. Yes, the dolls were particularly bad.
Tue May 8, 2012, 02:46 PM
May 2012

What about push-up bra's for six-year olds? What's there to push up at that age?

 

HopeHoops

(47,675 posts)
31. The "slut dance" contest at the beginning was rather disturbing too.
Tue May 8, 2012, 03:03 PM
May 2012

It reminds me of that (fairly) recent story about a mother who sued some kiddy "beauty pageant" for sexualizing her daughter. That one is in the "Earth calling parent. Hello, this is Earth calling" department.

 

DutchLiberal

(5,744 posts)
32. The "slut dance" is problematic for more than one reason.
Tue May 8, 2012, 06:01 PM
May 2012

The first, obvious one, is the sexualization of pre-pubescent children. But also, the furthering of the idea that a girl/woman who behaves or dresses provocatively should be labeled a "slut". It's sad that even nowadays, boys and girls still are being judged differently for the same behavior/attitude. But unlike some people, I would not advocate fixing this problem by arguing girls should 'tone it down' or behave/dress more modestly so as to avoid a stigma. That would be caving in to outdated ideas.

 

HopeHoops

(47,675 posts)
33. When guys do it, it's more of a "dork dance", but the video was "girls". As for "toning it down"...
Wed May 9, 2012, 09:47 AM
May 2012

That wasn't at all what I was implying - it is simply a matter of their age and encouraging them to dress and act like that. Adult women can do whatever they want, but pushing sexually suggestive behavior on young kids (either sex) is asking for trouble. My wife's classroom has one of those "Wii dance" programs (for PE purposes) and she's freaked out by some of the moves the kindergarteners use (the guys in particular with their crotch grab pelvic thrusts - dudes, it's still there, you don't have to check) and she's ANYTHING but a "prude".

In sharp contrast, we don't watch TV and raised three daughters (youngest is 17 now). They all dress rather conservatively of their own choice. They love the 2nd hand stores because they can find styles that are unusual (and they each have their own tastes). I'm glad they never bought into the notion that they have to look or act like a sex object and they are all self-confident young women. If there's a romantic situation where the look would fit, they're all perfectly capable of achieving it, but it isn't a "can't leave the house yet" daily issue.

I totally reject the "she was asking for it" argument to justify rape based on the way a woman is dressed, but children (both sexes) that imitate adult sexuality are pedophile bait and parents that promote it need a good slap upside the head to wake them up. Let them be children while they still can be. They'll be adults all too soon.


 

DutchLiberal

(5,744 posts)
34. I couldn't agree more.
Wed May 9, 2012, 10:00 AM
May 2012
As for "toning it down"... That wasn't at all what I was implying

I know you weren't; that's why I said "some people", referring to others.

I agree that pre-pubescent children should not be made to look and act in a sexual way. They're children, there's nothing sexual about them! Nobody is a 'prude' for pointing that out. That's just good common sense!

I'm sure you agree that there is a world of variety between 'dressing conservatively' and 'dressing like a sex object'; that there is a lot of grey between those two black and white polars opposites.
 

HopeHoops

(47,675 posts)
35. It's also the movements, looks, and attitudes. I'm not for FCC censorship, but parents?
Wed May 9, 2012, 11:20 AM
May 2012

The TV isn't a fucking baby sitter. And even the commercials on now shock me. I'm used to the two beer gut rednecks out in the woods popping open a can of shitty lite beer and babes in bikinis showing up from every direction - that's an old standard. But there was on in the middle of The Daily Show (online clip) for Axe dandruff shampoo that was pushing the envelope for an MTV video. The whole message was "If you want multiple hot babes for an orgy, use this to get rid of dandruff." Sex sells.

 

DutchLiberal

(5,744 posts)
36. 'Sex sells', but we've known that for a long time and honestly, I don't see anything wrong with it..
Wed May 9, 2012, 12:03 PM
May 2012

I didn't know that particular commercial, so I looked it up on YouTube. Is it stupid? Yes, it is definitely very, very stupid. But is it any different from most other commercials, which promise you fame/glory/success/status just by buying a shitty product? Essentially, no.

I've never been off tv, so nothing much shocks me these days. Certainly not sexy girls in a commercial targeted at men. In essence, it makes sense. A commercial targeted at men has to appeal to what men like. What do men like most? Pretty girls. Voilá, there's your commercial. If only the 'storyline' and execution wasn't so mind-blowingly stupid.

"Advertising sings, they con
You into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meanwhile life outside goes on
All around you"

- Bob Dylan, 'It's Allright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)'

 

HopeHoops

(47,675 posts)
37. Yeah, it is really stupid. But you hit another point - Gray Poupon?
Wed May 9, 2012, 06:50 PM
May 2012

The fantasy concept sells. I remember all the cool toys they advertised when I was a kid. The guys (mostly) playing with them acted like they were the only kids who had ever had a cool toy before. One of them was Evil Knevel (sp?) Canyon River Jump or something like that. EVERY time they did it in the commercial, it worked PERFECTLY. The kid down the street got one for Christmas. It royally sucked and couldn't make the jump under the best circumstances. I think they used wires in the commercial.

On Edit: Gray Poupon sucks. I like real mustard.

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