Montage: Christopher Hitchens - Speaking Honestly About Hillary Clinton

[phazed0]

[underpants]

1. Marking to watch later

[MADem]

2. Christopher Hitchens was a pickled, raddled addict.

Look at him, sweating like a stuck pig, with visibly evident FOUL personal hygiene, probably smelling of a bender in that first clip--he most likely slept in those clothes.

He was a MESS. He needed help. He never got it.

Had he so done, he might have caught his cancer earlier, and been a kinder person. He loved to go after women, I notice, Hillary, Mother Theresa, Princess Diana--what was up with that?

Sick, sad, unhappy man--and a dead one, too. For many years now. Since 2011!!!!

So why dig him up?

I guess it's "Everything tossed against the wall" day here at DU?

smh!

[Metric System]

3. His attacks on Hillary sounded personal. He gave opinions as if they were facts. This video says

more about Hitchens, then it does Hillary.

[phazed0]

5. Go ahead and disprove the claims then...

otherwise, your post tells a lot about you.

[MADem]

10. Look who's talking! You like to go straight for the personal insult.

That "tells a lot about YOU."

None of it good.

[phazed0]

13. What insult have I performed?

My position is correct, you performed a full diatribe about Hitchens, with no fact. Then you fail to even comment on the substance about Hillary.

If the "insult" I am guilty of is for asking you to think critically and not perform logical fallacies.. well, guilty as charged.

Thanks for playing!

[MADem]

15. You called me stupid downthread. And you're backing a dead wingnut who was a

BushCo cheerleader and a champion of regime change and the Iraq War.

So, yeah--thanks for playing, indeed. You've apparently taken a wrong turn, and let us all know about it.


Your "position" is well to the right of most participants here.

smh.

[phazed0]

43. I didn't call you stupid.. you're making shit up.

Reading comprehension is a must.

EDIT:
More ad-hominum attacks and no substance. You're not very good at this are you? Leave a post # where I called you stupid.

[MADem]

64. Yes, you did. But keep on keeping on--it'll bite you eventually. nt

[phazed0]

67. Still nothing pertaining to the OP? Why bother? nt

[MADem]

74. I've discussed the OP. Try reading. nt

[phazed0]

78. Which post was yours that was dispelling the Hillary issues? Yeah, thought so. nt

[MADem]

79. Thought you were done?

Read the thread.

[phazed0]

80. Which post of yours is dispelling the Hillary issue? nt

[MADem]

81. Read the thread--you'll figure it out. nt

[phazed0]

82. Just point it out then. You can't 'cause it aint there.

Troll.

[MADem]

83. I can--but I prefer to make you work for it.

You've been behaving in an incredibly uncivil fashion throughout this conversation, you've been rude, personally insulting, abusive, and in general, a bad example of a DUer.

I don't reward bad behavior.

[MADem]

6. He was a good mind gone bad as a consequence of addiction to alcohol.

In his earlier years, he was a skilled debater. In his later years, he was an attention-getting hate-monger and a George Bush cheerleader.

He liked very few things, save booze--he lived an angry, unhappy life.

[sulphurdunn]

23. Drunk, teetotaller, saint, sinner

angel, devil is all irrelevant. Regarding statements he posited as facts, either he was speaking the truth about Clinton or he was not. Which is it?

[MADem]

29. Short answer? He was NOT.

That's pretty obvious if you look at his comments without having as a goal using them to denigrate her for political reasons.

Anyone can name call--that drunkard had a talent that way.

[phazed0]

54. We're all waiting with baited breath

for your superb references to discredit Hitchens's statements on Hillary... and waiting.. and waiting... and waiting....

[MADem]

56. "Baited" huh?

Doing some fishing, are you?



Hitchins died a right wing neocon, a friend of Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz, a champion of carnage.

[phazed0]

59. Yep, I got you..

Not the best of the sea, but you did get the "baited" part so I guess you are a sentient being. At least we established that.


Oh, BTW you just committed another logical fallacy: "ad-hominum", with the friend line.

[MADem]

65. Yeah, right--that was on purpose.

[phazed0]

66. Oh, no.. sorry

I didn't want it to sound like it was on purpose, it was not.. just a typo

Again, you missed the actual premise.. still no substance on the original OP. It's just a bit much for you I'm afraid.

[MADem]

75. It's just a bit much for you I'm afraid.

These are your snarky, childish comments.

I've responded to the OP--you just don't like the answers so you keep ignoring them and tossing insults.

I'm amazed that you had the nerve to tout a right wing warmonger here without any knowledge of his actual views.

Clearly, that had to be it--because there's no logic or irony in your comments, here. You just didn't know.

Either that, or you did know, you support a right wing POV, and you don't care. It's one or the other.

[phazed0]

76. You win! Have fun navel-gazing! nt

[MADem]

77. I don't do that. nt

[floppyboo]

12. there is the part about her caring more about herself

than about making the president's policies stick. That is a fact, now out in the open re. Libya and Sid Blumenthal who she was expressly told not to consult. So, instead of just saying Hitchens spouts opinions, can you point to which ones in particular?

[840high]

36. Crickets. I'll wait with you.

[phazed0]

60. *Chirp Chirp*

I'm so glad I'm on the side of reason.

[floppyboo]

71. Opinions - yup, Hillary is the head and Bernie is the heart. REALLY???

Opinions are good! They need to be aired in the bright light of day!

Hitchens had plenty, but he had arguments to support them that you could then argue back. It's very sad when discourse goes silent. Great disservice to the goodwill others are offering. If you seriously don't want to debate the opinions you put forth, and tacitly accept the opinions of others, you deserve the government you get.

I would LOVE to hear someone give me a good argument that I would have to really think about, and maybe concede to, as to why it was appropriate for Hillary to go against the President's wishes regarding her counsel in matters pertaining to the undermining of Libya.

Takers? or just more crickets

btw - a proper dialectical argument should include facts, not just 'heart felt' responses. More Orwell - ya, Hillary is the head and Bernie is the heart.

Prove it!

[phazed0]

4. Smarter than you...

He would never go so low as to perform a logical fallacy such as an ad-hominem attack, such as you just did.

"Everything tossed against the wall day", should be easy to rebut the claims made, since you're so smart.

[MADem]

9. Funny how you defend a rightwing nut on a Democratic board.

He went way lower than that, too--obviously you know nothing about the guy.

When the man's addicition issues (and subsequent scrambling of his intellectual abilities) affect his abilities to prosecute an argument, that's part and parcel of his problems as a source for anything. You don't get much out of a dead man, either.

Keep defending the nitwit who thought "regime change" was a great idea, now:

And, by the way, insulting a DUer's intelligence because you don't like their opinion is not a smooth move. You shouldn't do it. Otherwise, people will regard you in a certain way that does nothing for your credibility here.

[phazed0]

16. Again?

Again, that's like you're opinion, man.

Where did I insult someone's intelligence?

Funny how you defend a rightwing nut on a Democratic board. He went way lower than that, too--obviously you know nothing about the guy.

You're thinking that Hitchens was a RW Nutjob is quite telling of how much you know about the guy. Nuf said.

Keep defending the nitwit who thought "regime change" was a great idea, now:

If I recall correctly, Hillary is another nitwit that thought "regime change was a great idea" - no thoughts on that though, I'm sure.

MADem said:

That "tells a lot about YOU."

None of it good.

Was that an insult you made? Hmm. The 'ol Holier than thou move, eh?

[MADem]

18. Hitchens never apologized for his POV, so Big Fail There, sport.

Your apple is not an orange, so stop trying to compare them.

You're coming across as terribly obvious with your stances and comments. That's not an insult, either--it's an observation of your behavior.

Supporting a right wing Bush cheerleader here on a liberal Democratic message board tells us all we need to know about you.

[phazed0]

61. More logical holes and reading comprehension issues.

Where was I comparing them? I didn't. Fail.

Since you know so much, let's have you tell everyone else about me! Surely that will pass as fact instead of conjecture. What exactly is my behavior? Fail. Still no actual rebuttal to any of the things in questions, from anyone in this thread.. and I'm the bad guy!

You're voting for a Bush cheerleader that was on the same sideline. I'll skip the ad-hominum attack, yet again.

Sigh. Getting bored. Hate to see you get stuck in a paper bag, not sure you're going to make it out.

[MADem]

62. You don't have to compare. You've already lay down with that dog, and got up with those fleas.

You support Hitchens, then by extension you support Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, and that whole Iraq mess.

I think you need to look inward--the one who has dug a hole from which they can't escape is you. And only you.

[Doctor_J]

17. Hitchens was a socialist

That's sort of the opposite of right wing nut. I thought only free republic conflated those two

[MADem]

19. Yeah, a "Pro Bush Socialist." Mmmm hmmm!

I'm sure he called himself a "moderate drinker" too--doesn't make it true.

Here's some wit and wisdom from your "socialist:"

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2009/01/no_regrets.html


He may have started out as a wide-eyed idealistic socialist, but he died a Rovian wingnut.

[Doctor_J]

20. Yeah I see what you mean

I wouldn't reconsider my vote for Barack Hussein Obama, in other words, and when he takes the oath, I hope to have a ringside seat

and, about Smirk,

The unfortunate thing about this analysis, from the liberal point of view, is that it leaves such little room for speculation about his Oedipal relationship with his father, his thwarted revenge fantasies about Saddam Hussein, his dry-drunk alcoholism, and all the rest of it.

And he favored the Iraq debacle? So did Mrs. Clinton, IIRC, and, I would guess, most of Hillary's supporters. Do you get headaches or muscle soreness from flip-flopping and cherry-picking constantly?

[MADem]

22. He supported regime change until the day he died.

Your selective use of quotes notwithstanding. He may not have liked the guy (and as a drunk, he should have put on his "Judge Not" hat writing that screed) but he backed his policies robustly.


You keep glossing over the fact that HRC acknowledged her vote was a mistake. She owned it. But even as she has owned it, over and over again, you falsely pretend that she didn't own it, didn't say it was a mistake, and you keep trying to make something of it.

You do know that Sanders voted for regime change, don't you? TWICE???? Before Clinton ever got to Congress. Why aren't you up HIS ass about that, hmmm?

And he has NEVER "owned" it, either.

Since you like to pull quotes from articles....

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/16/blood-traces-bernies-iraq-war-hypocrisy/

More problematic for the Senator in Birkenstocks is the little-known fact that Bernie Sanders himself voted twice in support of regime change in Iraq. In 1998 Sanders voted in favor of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which said: “It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.”

Later that same year, Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.” These measures gave congressional backing for the CIA’s covert plan to overthrow the Hussein regime in Baghdad, as well as the tightening of an economic sanctions regime that may have killed as many as 500,000 Iraqi children. The resolution also gave the green light to Operation Desert Fox, a four-day long bombing campaign striking 100 targets throughout Iraq. The operation featured more than 300 bombing sorties and 350 ground-launched Tomahawk cruise missiles, several targeting Saddam Hussein himself.

Even Hillary belatedly admitted that her Iraq war vote was a mistake. Bernie, however, has never apologized for his two votes endorsing the overthrow of Saddam. On the rare occasions when Sanders has been confronted about these votes, he has casually dismissed them as being “almost unanimous.” I went back and checked the record. In fact, many members of the progressive caucus in the House, as well as a few libertarian anti-war Members of Congress, vote against the Iraq regime change measures. Here’s a list of the “no” votes on the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998:....

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/16/blood-traces-bernies-iraq-war-hypocrisy/

Funny...it's "forgiven" when Bernie does it. But when Clinton does, and then apologizes, it's not.

I'd say there's a bit of dissonance there.

[Mc Mike]

25. I favor Bernie over Hillary, but you're 100% right about Hitchins.

I think he always worked for the other team, and did seem to pick on women public figures in particular.

[zalinda]

26. Okay, I kind of remember this

This was a threat to Saddam so he would let the weapons inspectors back in, and it worked. This is why we knew there were no weapons of mass destruction left in Iraq.

Z

[stupidicus]

33. jeffrey lied by omission

section 8 of the ILA specifically prohibited the use of the military as a regime change tool.

[MADem]

35. Doesn't matter. The vote is the vote.

He wasn't positioned "to the left" on either one. It's a bit disingenuous of him to play the sanctimonious card when he was one of 435, and not one of 100. In the latter case, it matters more--it's a much harder call.

[stupidicus]

38. sure

voting for the use of military force as a means for regime change is "exactly like" the methods and means prescribed in the ILA that ruled it out.

HC support makes contortionists/distortionists of you all, doesn't it?

[MADem]

39. Read the link. It's his vote.

Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.”

[phazed0]

45. So which one is it?

Last edited Fri Mar 25, 2016, 09:12 PM - Edit history (1)

I thought we were talking about Hillary but you deflected to attacking Hitchens' person, now you're deflecting to Sanders.

"but but.. Sanders did it too!", Which makes your vote for Hillary better because.... they all did it? You're becoming comical.

[stupidicus]

50. I'd never ever seen a lefty claim that the ILA is just like the AUMF

until the Hillarians picked up that argument from their rightwing cousins who spewed it repeatedly back in the day.

[MADem]

63. The site where that article came from is as "lefty" as they come.

But only a "rightie" might not realize that.

smh.

[stupidicus]

87. which changes nor undermines a thing I said

you're really a horn-of-plenty with meaningless garbage, ain't ya?

[stupidicus]

47. I did, and it changes nothing

the clown stupidly made the case that voting for a war that would almost certainly involve a regime change is just like voting for assistance to Iraq insiders to accomplish it non-militarily. Gee, which one do you think does a better job of preserving that thing called self-determination, and which largely denies it?

that's about as close to the "war is peace" bs as a person can get without actually jumping on that bandwagon

Gee, what's next, that there's no diff in purely punitive means of addressing a drug problem, and providing medical assistance?

I suppose some just lack the mental acuity to resolve things into the separate and distinct things that they are. Jeffrey certainly does...

[MADem]

42. Someone apologized for HER vote--and someone else never did, for his. nt

[SunSeeker]

28. Yup, and virulently anti-abortion.

He was pretty anti-woman IMO, which could explain his Hillary hatred.

[still_one]

24. He also called George Bush, George Washington when he invaded Iraq. No question he had many issues,

contradictory, and as you said, a mess

[MADem]

27. He died on the day OBAMA ended that mess of a war, too.

Oh, the irony.

He died convinced that swapping out nutty/mean but orderly and malleable Saddam for ISIS chaos was a good plan.

I'll bet the Belgians have a different view...

[Plucketeer]

31. WHA? Whoa - Wait....

Which war was that - the one he "ended", that is. I must have Van Winkle's syndrome.

[MADem]

44. The one that Obama ended.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/hitchens-and-iraq

[Plucketeer]

57. Oh

THAT ending of that war. OK. Got it!

[Jemmons]

37. Yes - why dig him up? Why not let the truth rot under six feet? Why not just let Chris Matthews do

the talking now? Or Karen Finney?

Also we all know how body odor prevents people from having rational thoughts and the right kind of opinions. He was smelly then and I'm sure he is twice as smelly now. Mainstream media might not have all of the truth, but what truth they have, is something that we can all agree on. There is really no need to to stir up old criticism.

Also it is really really unfair to bring up the bosnia sniper fire story again. Hillary might have misspoken about the incident, but you should know that this happens when people are under stress. And how could anything be more stressful than serpentining down the runway to avoid sniper-fire?

Hillary always tries to to tell the truth. It is just so hard sometimes.

[MADem]

41. If you want to "hitch" your wagon to his rotted, right wing BushCo star, knock yourself out.

Sanders and Bush and Hitchens sure did agree on this:

Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.”

[phazed0]

46. So did Hillary. nt

[MADem]

48. No. She apologized for her vote.

Hitchens stuck with Wolfowitz until he died.

Sanders never apologized for his votes in 98.

[phazed0]

51. Well, if you're that gullible

This coming from the person that in post #35 says:

"Doesn't matter. The vote is the vote."

So, because Hillary said "sorry" the vote isn't the vote. The vote is only the vote when you like it. What a hypocrite.

[MADem]

55. Let me clarify, since you are having trouble.

"Doesn't matter. The vote-which he has not renounced -- is the vote."

[phazed0]

58. I'm not having trouble.. you are.

You see, when you're arguments contain nothing but logical fallacies, you attack the person you're debating with, not the premise of the debate.

I'm being reasonable. Come on, give me a good logical thought out of that noodle instead of a smear or a personal attack. You can do it!

[MADem]

68. You can play the "internet argument game" all day, but anyone reading this can see that you

dragged the rotted corpse of a right wing drunk in here to try to "prove" something, not realizing that he was discredited, fired from all his "lefty" jobs, and excoriated by those "socialists" and other liberals with whom he used to consort.

Right wingers often didn't get that memo--they didn't notice him snuggling up to Wolfie et. al, getting waterboarded and saying it wasn't that bad, going to Iraq and comparing Bush with George Washington, etc. They just noticed that he was a godless heathen, so they immediately (and erroneously) put him on the other side of their fence. Tsk, tsk. Gotta do that homework...!

You're not being reasonable--you're waving the carcass of a wingnut drunkard around, as though you think it proves something. You'd do well to drag that shit back to your cave because it sells poorly at this marketplace of ideas.

[phazed0]

69. So, still nothing about the Hillary argument, I see..

Now, now.

I'm waiving the ideas of a drunkard around that happen to be based on facts and circumstances of which you keep ignoring.

You know what's wrong with you? You associate the person with the idea. That's the logical fallacy! Scream as loud as you want about the man, humanity's geniuses are often eccentric and/or Insane. According to your logic, we should discredit Pythagoras, Michelangelo and Nikola Tesla as well. Last time I checked those people had ideas that worked regardless of their conditions.

Who wants to bet, no argument gets presented against the Hillary argument on the next go-around?

[MADem]

70. Why don't you drag in Cheney and Wolfowitz too, to make your case?

You're as transparent as a plate glass window.

Pythagoras, Michelangelo and Tesla weren't right wing assholes.

Logic fail, pal.

[phazed0]

72. Who's playing the "Internet argument game"? Still nothing on Hillary...

It's just over your head, kiddo.

Pythagoras created Pythagoreanism, a religion had two primary tenets: souls are reincarnated, and [edible]beans are evil. He was "smelly" like Hitchens and had a poor worldview. But his math theories were right.

Michelangelo was likely autistic. He bathed very rarely and slept if full dress, including his shoes and never changed his clothes. His assistant once complained that, "He has sometimes gone so long without taking his shoes off that then the skin came away, like a snake's, with the boots.". We don't seem to criticize his work because of his personal failings.

Nikola Tesla was obsessive-compulsive. He was a severe germophobe and refused to touch anything even hinting at dirt. He also wouldn't touch anything round, which made his job difficult. When entering a building, he would walk three times around the block.
He was crazy, but his ideas helped lead to everything you see before you. We don't discredit him?


But you continue to deflect about the Hillary issue. You know why? Because you don't have any answer for it. You are intolerant of others behavior (Such as Hitchens), therefor you discount anything they say. You want to be the authoritarian on Hitchens as if you are some expert, while scolding others for not being "experts" on Hitchens.

Wait... authoritarian, intolerant views and practices? It is the definition of Fascism, not Democracy. You sure you're on the right board?

I hope you're fascist logic isn't an indicator of the majority of Hillary supporters!

[MADem]

73. 'It's just over your head, kiddo. '

To quote you.

None of those people, long dead, all, were right wing nut jobs. But Hitchens is. If you can spare the time to do some bullshit "internet research" on long dead inventors and creators, then maybe you should have spent ten minutes reading up on your Hero Hitchens and his odious association with the Bush regime.

And calling me a FASCIST? (Don't give me that shit that you were referring to my "logic," like it's a pet puppy, separate from me, either). Now that's just OTT. When ya got nothing, you name call.

Looks like someone can't manage to converse without throwing poop. Past your bedtime, is it?

Grow up.

[phazed0]

84. Someone call the whaaaammmbulance! nt

[MADem]

85. Ahhh, there it is! Your true nature for all to see! nt

[annavictorious]

7. I lost respect for this man

after his virulently strong defense of the Iraq war.

[angstlessk]

11. I always loved him, EXCEPT for that stance

but everything else he spoke about I agreed with...he was a great mind.

Have you seen his interview or read his book on Mother Theresa, who is about to be given sainthood?

[FlatBaroque]

8. "She will never change"

Nope. She will not. The only things that change are her heartfelt positions on issues

[dchill]

21. And shapeshifters.

[msongs]

14. as opposed to speaking dishonestly? maybe he doesnt know the difference eh? nt

[mwrguy]

30. He's an Islamophobic, neocon shill

[arcane1]

40. Yep, he supported the invasion of Iraq. Just like Hillary n/t

[Plucketeer]

32. I DO think Brian Williams got a raw deal.

There he was - REPORTING the news and got part-timed for crafting a tale of daring and bravado. The person MAKING the news tries her hand at a Band of Brothers moment and now we're about to hand her the keys to the Oval Office! Any chance some Hillarians can advise me as to what shade of Rose-colored glasses are required???

[Loki]

34. Oh the guy who hated Mother Teresa

Called her "Hell's Angel"...... asshole. A once great mind, ruined by drugs, alcohol and ego.

[phazed0]

49. More ad-hominem.. still no thinking.

So what part of Mother Teresa did you disagree with Hitchens on? Does that disagreement dispose of the entire argument he makes? Hmm. Not holding my breath for something more than "He's an alcoholic!". Being an alcoholic, he still made a lot better case than you have here (which has been none).

[noretreatnosurrender]

52. Can't Watch

Not a fan of Hitchens.

[phazed0]

53. Cool story bro. nt

[quantumjunkie]

86. +1