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Turns out trump knew it was against the law to rip up government documents
Some Trump White House records were torn up and taped back together, National Archives says
Now Trump Is Charging Nancy Pelosi With Fake Crimes, Too
Meet the guys who tape Trump's papers back together
Follow @demunderground
vlyons
(10,252 posts)What she ripped was a COPY, which probably was distributed to every senator and congressman in attendance, all the media, and there's a C-SPAN video of his speech that is no doubt in the natl archive.
So his accusation that she broke the law is BS.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)Except...that's normally what staff are for. But IIR he didn't trust what anyone else said because he always knew everything.
I miss not having a Constitutional scholar for President.
Walleye
(31,002 posts)SergeStorms
(19,192 posts)nothing about our government and how it works, nothing about the Constitution.....and he didn't want to learn, either. No one could make Trump do anything he didn't want to do.
All he knew was what someone told him, then he decided if he was going to follow the rules/law of the land. 99% of the time the answer was no. Someone told him shredding/tearing up presidential documents was against the law, and since it suited his purpose at the time, he repeated it to reporters.
Trump always thinks he's the smartest person in any room, when the direct opposite is always the case. His galactic sized ego won't allow him to admit it though.
Martin68
(22,781 posts)ffr
(22,668 posts)Anybody home?
Here's another example of a major crime that your justice department apparently has no idea about, since it has to be reported on a user forum, FCS!
Is there any crime that is too over-the-top that something is done? The American public is flat-out bewildered at this point that no crime is too over the top, if a REPUBLICAN does it. FFS!
gab13by13
(21,290 posts)he can also be charged with obstruction of justice. He can also be charged with removing classified documents if any of those documents he took to Mar-el-Loco happen to be classified.
ancianita
(36,017 posts)japple
(9,819 posts)JudyM
(29,225 posts)piddyprints
(14,642 posts)ignorance of the law is no excuse. I would think he would be guilty in either case.
gab13by13
(21,290 posts)criminal intent must be proven.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)So, if your assertion was true, there wouldn't be much of a criminal justice system. There are different murder charges for this reason. Statutes indicate the appropriate level of intent for the criminal offense.
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)playing the footage of Nancy tearing up his foul words over and over 24/7/365.
Pricking his fragile ego is so much fun and also Very very effective in getting him to spout words and incriminate himself and his felonious minions.
TLP showed us the way when they bought airtime in just DC alone during 2020 on the channels he watched to make sure he saw every single attack ad embarrassing his fragile ass. I truly believe they goaded him into doing many stupid self-destructive acts that contributed to his loss to President Biden.
#GOTV2022
bucolic_frolic
(43,123 posts)Just savor the visuals. She wore white, the paper was white. You could not miss it.
japple
(9,819 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 8, 2022, 07:22 PM - Edit history (1)
Even the GOP with their standing ovation. Everyone is wondering "what a loser"--how did this fuck up ever get to where he is and why didn't anyone ever challenge him?
He out-brazened them. He knows it, doesn't care what they think. That coverup look of simmering anger comes from his hearing his speech being ripped up behind him. He's stiffly holding himself from turning around and taking a swing at her.
Remember how he stalked Hillary onstage? Same hate.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,672 posts)I didn't know that those two guys in records management were fired without explanation. They were even made to sign prewritten resignation letters. That is brutal.
Initech
(100,060 posts)ancianita
(36,017 posts)amend the law in order to exact any penalties. Only if he's caught with classified info can he be prosecuted.
gab13by13
(21,290 posts)Trump broke several laws re: preservation of documents
I listened to Barbara McQuade say, criminal intent must be proven to indict Trump. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, Trump was told numerous times he needed to preserve documents but he tore them up, burned them, and stole them. Take the time to read what the law says:
18 USC §641, public money property or records, provides:
Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof; or
Whoever receives, conceals, or retains the same with intent to convert it to his use or gain, knowing it to have been embezzled, stolen, purloined or converted
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both .
18 USC §1361 provides:
Whoever willfully injures or commits any depredation against any property of the United States, or of any department or agency thereof, or any property which has been or is being manufactured or constructed for the United States, or any department or agency thereof, or attempts to commit any of the foregoing offenses, shall be punished as follows:
If the damage or attempted damage to such property exceeds the sum of $1,000, by a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than ten years, or both; if the damage or attempted damage to such property does not exceed the sum of $1,000, by a fine under this title or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both.
18 U.S. Code §2071. Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally provides:
(a) Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
(b) Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States .
The first two statutes 18 USC §641 and §1361 require prosecutors to prove the property was of value, but information usually is valuable and the cost of retrieving information stored on government computers from back up files can be significant. The third statute 18 USC §2071 does not require proof that the stolen or destroyed property was of monetary value.
As the Department of Justice explains with respect to §2071:
There are several important aspects to this offense. First, it is a specific intent crime. This means that the defendant must act intentionally with knowledge that he is violating the law. See United States v. Simpson, 460 F.2d 515, 518 (9th Cir. 1972). Moreover, one case has suggested that this specific intent requires that the defendant know that the documents involved are public records. See United States v. DeGroat, 30 F. 764, 765 (E.D.Mich. 1887).
The acts proscribed by this section are defined broadly. Essentially three types of conduct are prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2071(a). These are: (1) concealment, removal, mutilation, obliteration or destruction of records; (2) any attempt to commit these proscribed acts; and (3) carrying away any record with the intent to conceal, remove, mutilate or destroy it. It should be noted that all of these acts involve either misappropriation of or damage to public records. This has led one court to conclude that the mere photocopying of these records does not violate 18 U.S.C. § 2071. See United States v. Rosner, 352 F. Supp. 915, 919-22 (S.D.N.Y. 1972).
Subsection (b) of 18 U.S.C. § 2071 contains a similar prohibition specifically directed at custodians of public records. Any custodian of a public record who willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys (any record) shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. While the range of acts proscribed by this subsection is somewhat narrower than subsection (a), it does provide the additional penalty of forfeiture of position with the United States.
United States Department of Justice, Criminal Resource Manual, §1663 (updated January 23, 2020).
If the stolen, lost or destroyed information pertains to the national defense, the offender is in even more trouble.
18 U.S.C. §793: Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information, provides:
(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(g) If two or more persons conspire to violate any of the foregoing provisions of this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy.
Note the conspiracy provision in §793(g) which reflects the law of conspiracy generally. Planning with someone else to destroy government documents or to commit any other crime is often as bad as the crime itself. The general conspiracy provision is set forth in 18 U.S.C. §371 (If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both).
And if the information pertains to an ongoing federal investigation the offender should be prepared to be charged under the obstruction of justice statutes. For example: 18 U.S. Code § 1512 provides:
(c) Whoever corruptly
(1) alters, destroys, mutilates, or conceals a record, document, or other object, or attempts to do so, with the intent to impair the objects integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding; or
(2) otherwise obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so,
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
For purposes of this statute § 1512(f)(1) provides that an official proceeding need not be pending or about to be instituted at the time of the offense. That means that if it is known that there is likely to be a federal proceeding whether by federal prosecutors or Congress and someone destroys documents that pertain to that proceeding, there can be obstruction of justice.
Finally, if documents are missing, for example, from computers and computer files in a departing staffers office, someone from a federal agency, federal law enforcement, or a congressional committee investigating the matter may come asking about them. Lying about what happened to those documents is a great way to extend ones reservation as a guest of the government, that is, with the Bureau of Prisons. 18 U.S.C. §1001 provides:
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry; shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years .
Members of Congress including the House Committee on Oversight and Reform and the Judiciary Committee would be well advised to warn current administration officials of their duties to preserve records, the existing federal criminal laws, and the myriad congressional investigations to which the obstruction of justice statute may also apply.
The bottom line here is simple. Destroying or stealing documents belonging to the United States government is a crime. Destroying or stealing documents to cover up another crime, or activity that may be under investigation, is also a crime. Lying about what happened to missing documents is yet another crime. A departing federal official may take personal property from the office but no more. That includes perhaps some family photos and of course that red cap. But everything else stays where it is. Anyone who doesnt understand that could end up staying with the government a lot longer than anticipated or desired.
https://www.justsecurity.org/73265/destroying-federal-documents-during-a-presidential-transition-is-a-federal-crime/
ancianita
(36,017 posts)I'll have to spread this around some places. Much appreciated.
gab13by13
(21,290 posts)ancianita
(36,017 posts)trusty elf
(7,383 posts)SergeStorms
(19,192 posts)Donnie is a smidgen too heavy to outrun a gator. In the war between Donnie and gator, gator would always win.
I imagine the gator would spit Donnie's rancid carcass out though. Starving would be a better idea than trying to keep Mr. McDonalds down your gullet.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)Laws don't apply to this man. They never did. He makes a mockery of our Constitution.
That can be remedied, of course, but I'll believe it when I see it.
JohnnyRingo
(18,623 posts)Bust him for it, drag it through the courts, and give him probation for first offense while continuing investigation for send, third, and fourth more serious offenses. Why wait for all his crimes at once?
Let's get this damn wrecking ball rollin' like prosecutors would do for anyone else.
Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #24)
markpkessinger This message was self-deleted by its author.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,079 posts)IronLionZion
(45,410 posts)Donald is the hippo
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)That #1 - Speaker Pelosi knew it was his habit to tear things up when he thought something was garbage.
and
#2 - She did it deliberately to get to him.
She's not petty - but she knows how to push his buttons into an act of stupidity.
kacekwl
(7,016 posts)will be charged for that along with a lot of democratic members within weeks.
bucolic_frolic
(43,123 posts)YoshidaYui
(41,831 posts)Send that man straight to hell?? A prison cell for a start,...is fine.