Detailing Crimes May Have Discouraged Trump From Pardons - Rachel Maddow - MSNBC

[Rhiannon12866]

An MSNBC panel looks at the members of Congress who were revealed by the January 6th Committee to have asked for pardons from Donald Trump for their role in his effort to negate his election loss, and considers the possibility that listing the crimes being pardoned was not something Trump was comfortable doing. Aired on 06/23/2022.

[Raster]

1. And in true tRump* fashion, NONE. OF. THEM. got their requested pardons.

[wnylib]

2. Great points about why Trump did not

Grant pardons to his co-conspirators. First, the pardons would implicate himself. Second, once pardoned, the co-conspirators could not plead the 5th in hearings or in court.

[Rhiannon12866]

4. Excellent point. TFG must have gotten legal advice.

[quakerboy]

10. I think it is simpler and sadder

Trump can not admit that he is a loser. And pardoning folks for the crime of trying to steal an election for him would be an admission he lost the election

[Rhiannon12866]

12. You're probably right - but at this point, how can he possibly not know??

He's been struck down in court, never picked up even one "swing" state - and the only ones who still go along with him are the deluded folks he addresses at his "rallies!" His shtick is getting really old...

[quakerboy]

19. He has never significantly lost before

And he is not in jail now. As long as there are no consequences.. has he really lost in a way that is important to him, that even registers as a loss to him?

The votes were never important. He made that repeatedly clear in both elections. All he cares about is the power and privilege. His loss of access to twitter is actually more consequential to him than anything else that has happened to date.

[Rhiannon12866]

21. You're right - he has never followed laws, disregarded them or found a way around them.

He needs a wake up call - "fines" have never taught him anything. And he's managed to postpone and fight any consequences through lawyers. But this time is different - he has attempted to overthrow the government of the United States, overthrow this democracy. We did not learn the lessons of the Civil War. This time, loss of citizenship is not enough - though TFG and his enablers in government sure qualify. There need to be swift and tough convictions - hundreds of insurrectionists are now serving time. TFG and his enablers in government who called for and led January 6th need to join them!

[wnylib]

14. He knows that he lost the election,

that less people voted for him than for Biden. What he can't accept is that he failed in his scheming to stay in power after losing the election.

[quakerboy]

18. I dont think thats how his brain works

The legalities and technicalities of anything are not important to him. The vote literally means nothing, in his worldview. The only thing that mattered was the reality of power. Pardons were only necessary if he lost power, if he retained power he could "fix" things for his allies whenever and however needed. Therefore, pardons were not acceptable.

[wnylib]

20. Good point and probably correct.

Last night I heard a BBC broadcast interview with the documentary film maker who was documenting the Trump campaign and whose film and paperwork were turned over to the J6 committee.

The guy said that he believes that Trump firmly, genuinely believes that he won the election. I don't bieve that for a second, but if this guy testifies on behalf of Trump, some people would see that as an excuse for Trump's actions. But there is NO excuse for all the illegal behavior that Trump carried out, even if he did believe that he won.

[unblock]

5. Sort of.

First, a pardonee can refuse a pardon. So, they can invoke the 5th until the government charges them with a crime and prosecutes the case enough to compel the pardonee to produce the pardon in court. Only then, having accepted the pardon, might they not be able to invoke the 5th.

Even then, they can still invoke the 5th of there are other crimes they might still be liable for. An example would be if the same act violates both federal and state law. A federal pardon does nothing to limit liability for the state crime, so they can still invoke the 5th.

[machoneman]

23. No! The idiot did not think that any effort to support his claims were crimes. Hence, listing them..

...as such would be an admission that crimes were committed.

[cstanleytech]

3. Plus giving them pardons could have resulted in them being forced to testify against Trump.

[unblock]

6. Promising a pardon allows someone like Donnie to control people. Delivering a pardon gives that up.

My theory is that Donnie wanted to continue to control people by promising he'd pardon them as soon as they got him a second term.

[Rhiannon12866]

7. I think that's it, too.

No doubt he held that over their heads - and, as we know, he lies.

[calimary]

8. I find myself leaning in another direction.

I can’t help suspecting that trump did not grant these guys pardons out of petty spite - because they didn’t get him off the hot seat and make his potential legal troubles go away. As in “oh yeah? You want a pardon? What have you done for me lately? You were supposed to get these investigations off my ass and you didn’t. So now you want me to give you a pardon? Go fuck yourself!”

I think he’s just selfish enough and spiteful enough to go that way. He doesn’t do anything that doesn’t benefit himself.

[Rhiannon12866]

9. I could go either way - in any case, you're right, it's all about what would benefit him

[wnylib]

15. Sounds possible. Certainly is within his character

to act that way. But not over the investigations by the J6 committee. They didn't begin until he was out of office and once out, he could no longer grant pardons.

But he would deny pardons out of spite after they were not successful in the coup. "What makes you think you deserve a pardon? You were supposed to keep me in office." Prior to the insurrection, he could have withheld pardons for other actions just in order to keep control over people up to the end of his first term and into the second. But then, there was no second term.

[SheltieLover]

11. K&R!

[Raven123]

13. A simpler explanation: They failed. No rewards for failure to keep Trump in office

[rsdsharp]

16. Listing crimes? We don't need to list no stinking crimes!

The pertinent part of Nixon’s pardon:

Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974.

Doesn’t get any broader (or more vague) than that.

[Rhiannon12866]

22. Nixon's Watergate break in is a footnote compared to TFG's attempt to overthrow democracy!

Nixon attempted to interfere in an election - TFG attempted to ensure that free and fair elections became a right of the past. This time, jail time should be the consequences. Hundreds of those insurrections who broke into the Capitol are now serving time. Those who called for and led this insurrection need to join them. Swift action is necessary since he continues to roam the country, holding rallies to convince new "supporters." He's broken our most sacred laws. It's now our turn to shout "Lock him up!"

[rsdsharp]

24. I agree with everything you said.

However, none of that has anything to do with my point, which was to point out that pardons apparently do not need to enumerate specific crimes. Nixon’s certainly did not.

[Rhiannon12866]

25. You're absolutely right. Ford sought to "heal the nation."

But, in this case, the hearings have revealed the specific laws that were disregarded and broken - and who is guilty. There need to be consequences to "heal the nation" - and protect our democracy - this time around.

[cloudboy07]

17. funny !

TDFG promise to pardon them & they will get the "SHAFT & jail time with a felony record ! typical TDFG M.O. !

[FakeNoose]

26. Whoopsie! There's a Catch-22

Sorry guys, Chump wasn't about to offer you a pardon if your dirty deeds are something he cannot acknowledge.

Game - Set - Match