O.K., have at it here!1 Just saw The King's Speech after all these years, well in the background.

[UTUSN]

Meaning I'm not closely appreciating anything in my background habit. It captured some humanity behind my anti-Royalist democratic and Democratic orientations. Fine.

I *did* look up for the scenes between the brothers during the abdication. It got 4 Oscars, fine I don't begrudge wins against my own tastes, which are things like The Favourite, Gladiator, Lawrence/Arabia, like that.

But on to what will garner me slings and arrows:

So at the climax when Liz's father as king delivers the big rallying speech against the German war ("the second time in most of our lives" ), the music made me look up and take in the emotional impact.

Because it was the magnificent slow movement from BEETHOVEN's (7th?) !!!!!!!!!!!

O.K., gig me if you must but NOT about being prejudiced TODAY against our former war enemies. But my little surprise was that in celebrating a rallying cry against Nazis (who were GERMAN), the music the moviemakers play is GERMAN! And then at the end, the music on the credits was MOZART the *Austrian*!

My snide little point is, with all the obsessive detail that moviemakers pay attention to, couldn't they have played some Edward ELGAR or GILBERT/SULLIVAN?!

********Look, I'm well aware that music is something apart, that it's an old little issue about whether great artists (Richard WAGNER) can be separated from their horrid beliefs (Richard WAGNER), and I'm way a fanboy of RIMSKY-KORSAKOV, TCHAIKOVSKY, and SHOSTAKOVICH, so don't go there. And besides that, who has anything bad to say about BEETHOVEN/MOZART?!1 Although when Wolfie uleashes a chorus of entirely chirruping sopranos I claw the walls like a cat!1

Also, I do not for a nanosecond think that the moviemaker didn't know what they were doing, but given that, so what was the conscious point being made? That he didn't do the zenophobia thing that using ELGAR would hint at? Or what?!1

Don't go overboard. This is intended as a mildly fun post.

[RockRaven]

1. Well, the British royal family are German too.... So....

[hlthe2b]

2. Sorry, but nuts. I could see some discomfort if Wagner had been chosen, but Beethoven? Mozart?

What on earth did they have to do with Naziism? Dead more than a century prior...?

And yes, as pointed out, the Windsors did have German lineage.

I haven't seen the movie in years, but I did like it.

[UTUSN]

3. Allow me to go back to count the number of time I used the word "German".

[hlthe2b]

4. So?

[UTUSN]

7. Your "So?" has to do with ignoring the entire point of German music setting

for the climax rallying against Germans. And in that period, "German" was not compartmentalized away from Naziism.

And to the point before, about the saxe coburg gotha family being of German heritage, I not only was aware of that but verged on including it in my post, deciding apparently wrongly that it wasn't that pertinent. When topics are taken off course, it's almost always by side details like that.

To elaborate on the heritage side thing, the abdicated king and his bride *were* Nazi sympathizers or even full out Nazis, while supposedly most of the rest of the newly minted WINDSORS were not. The Nazi angle was an important factor in getting the lovebirds to begone themselves. So it fits my point about the nationalism that it's like a hair in the soup for the music to be German at the English climax.

And who is supposed to take seriously associating BEETHOVEN/MOZART with Naziism (rhetorical question, but I'll add the question mark for formula's sake)? Injecting something into my post that is not in my post is your thing, not mine.

Over my sojourn at DU I have often been in wonder at how topics that are throwaways are turned into earthshaking horrors of contention. I also am often in wonder at how I seem to attract persons who don't like what I say but feel it incumbent upon themselves to let me know, while also ignoring what I counter the tangents with.

[hlthe2b]

9. Again conflating Nazism with ALL things German is disturbing at the least and that seems

to be what you are doing. I don't understand your point if that was not your intention.

I see most classical music as transcendent beyond the composer and their ethnicity so perhaps that is the difference in how you and I view this.

[UTUSN]

10. I'm glad you've softened the tone at the end, but your "that seems/what you're doing"

is *your* interpretation/perception. I don't know how to attempt to communicate a point with words when my words are flung around to other topics.

I can only say what I mean with my words, and having to repeat it multiple times is not going to get anywhere.

****You know, your DU handle is vintage for me and it's only recently that we've crossed direct paths, and I'll say that these recent times have seemed not only to cross paths, but cross. Letting it go would be fine for me.

[hlthe2b]

13. I am saying that I am not following your point, not understanding

and with the hope you'd explain.

But sure, I am not always on the same mental thought process with others, as I'm sure you find yourself occasionally as well. Maybe it is simply distraction with all that is going on

No problem, though.

[UTUSN]

15. Whew, that's good!

[elleng]

5. Sorry, not thrilled with the slam, as been celebrating Beethoven's almost 250th Birthday,

coming up this week (and will post and play all day, Dec 16th.)

At least it wasn't Wagner.

LOVE the movie, seen it many times.

[UTUSN]

12. Old pal, surely you're not interpreting my topic as a slam on BEETHOVEN (or MOZART).

And when you say, "At least it wasn't Wagner" it's close to my theme. It was the *GERMAN*ness of the music, not the NAZIism of the music.

If it *had* been WAGNER, *then* it would have been Hades to pay! (And to be clear, WAGNER's *music* is undeniably magnificent.)

[elleng]

16. No, Dahlink, just giving us all something ELSE to chew about!

Here's a Haydn:

https://weta.org/listen-live



and coming up: Beethoven 250

Album of the Week

5:36 pm
Symphony #9 in D Minor, Op. 125 "Choral": I. Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso
Ludwig van Beethoven
Vienna Philharmonic | Andris Nelsons (conductor)

[elleng]

17. What an interesting thread this has become!

[UTUSN]

19. Is that how you see it?!1 ---I'm smarting and cowering!1

[elleng]

20. Oh NO!

There's lots of history, as well as a bit of musicology.

[elleng]

24. Now

Beethoven 250

5:36 pm
Symphony #9 in D Minor, Op. 125 "Choral": I. Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso
Ludwig van Beethoven
Vienna Philharmonic | Andris Nelsons (conductor)

https://weta.org/listen-live

[elleng]

27. This for YOU:

'Yet perhaps his odd appearance and manner, as well as his valiant struggle with deafness, actually contributed to the spell he cast. And whatever his personality, his music does seem to define grandeur and heroism.

What do we hear in the film “The King’s Speech” when George VI of England addresses his subjects at the start of World War II? The slow movement of Beethoven’s Seventh Symphony — music that sounds like a solemn, steadily determined march.'

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/14/arts/music/beethoven-250-birthday-classical.html?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10312485

[UTUSN]

28. In *NO* way was my O.P. topic an attack on BEETHOVEN (or MOZART).

How can a discussion of *A* topic take place when the posts objecting are about OTHER topics?!

Perhaps this will sharpen the focus on MY topic: Contrasting to the climactic scene in The King's Speech is THIS climactic scene in Casablanca, where the crowd overwhelms the Nazis by singing La Marseillaise. It would be analogous to my point if the crowd had sung the chorus from BEETHOVEN's 9th *INSTEAD* - or anything by any German.

Repeating, I am talking about movie making a scene, where everything in it is NOT SUPPOSED TO DISTRACT from the point or to elicit an inappropriate association, like a hair in the soup, not supposed to make you laugh in a solemn moment. Granted that a non-musical or non-critical viewer would notice.

I fully agree with the article citing the BEETHOVEN slow music from the 7th being magnificent and swelling in emotion. I *ADORE* that music. My point is that the climax in that movie was the conjunction of the character's overcoming a personal obstacle and of his rallying the nation to overcome the horrendous obstacle. The choice of BEETHOVEN's music was certainly powerful just for itself, but it making me look up and laugh at the INCONGRUITY of German (I never said BEETHOVEN/MOZART were Nazi, ridiculous) music in the moment of rallying against Germany. We all know that in both world wars there was propaganda prejudice against the music/culture of the enemy, not playing German music, and Japanese-Americans being interned, and name calling the enemy on both sides.

The posts I have had to argue against have been on off-topic tangents, not MY topic. It's a classy movie, a high end production with excellent performances. For me it was a "small" movie, not a "Lawrence of Arabia." As for the argument that some movies "plug in" random music based on not paying for the rights, this Speech movie was a high end production, not one of those movies, such that paying for rights is a consideration.

And to those who say they don't get my point, I just don't know what words to change and have nothing more to attempt over and over. I know there are people out there who get my point, but those don't post, only the ones who want to talk about some other topic than what mine is.

Get it, dear elleng? You certainly don't have to defend BEETHOVEN from me!1

[elleng]

29. GOT it AGES ago, UTU, had to share this tidbit with you.

Wednesday, All Beethoven Day (I suspect,) as his Birth Anniversary!

[UTUSN]

30. If we weren't quarantined I'd go dancing with you to celebrate!

[elleng]

31. Virtual Dances ALL DAY!

[Paladin]

6. Don't let a little background music fuck up a fine movie for you. (nt)

[UTUSN]

8. Well, as I said, it humanized "Royals" for me but not as "fine" a movie as the ones I cited.

I didn't dislike it. Just thought it was funny about the music, just to bring things back again to what I wanted to post about.

[kurtcagle]

11. Because English musicians sucked until the 1960s.

The Brits, while the unquestionable champions of the theater and theatrical productions, produced remarkably few really good musicians. Elgar, whom I love, probably comes closest, and maybe Ralph Von Williams, but for the most part English musicians are ... meh. Handel is boring enough to drive people to distraction. Beethoven was German, but he relocated to Austria when he was fairly young, and Germany's association with Beethoven precedes the Nazis by more than a hundred years. Finally, as several people have pointed out - both George VI and Edward VIII's grandfather was Prince Albert of the Duchy of Saxe-Gotha in what would become Germany. In that regard, the English have as much claim to Beethoven as Germany does (and arguably more, as Kaiser Wilhelm was the last of the German Royal Hapsburgs in Germany, even as the Hapsburg line is still carried today in the House of Windsor.

The less said about Wagner, the better.

[UTUSN]

21. Come, now, I'm sure you aren't saying ZERO English music of worth existed.

And as for the MOZART/Nazi absurd thing, this was disposed of upthread where it never should have come up at all.

As for German/Austrian, HITLER's origin was Austrian (and Jewish) and Austria was allied with Nazism. All the rest of the erstwhile German family history has been covered and not about the movie music topic.

I'm flummoxed about English having a "claim" to MOZART, since he (and BEETHOVEN) belong to the universe, not to any piddling nationality.

"The less said about Wagner, the better" - uh, WAGNER the Nazi human? Surely not WAGNER's *music*. I'm not into debating, and I've spent far more time and angst on what I thought was a fun little topic about movie craft.

[frazzled]

14. I thought you were going to

comment on the relationship to Biden’s similar stuttering problem, and how it might have shed some light on the issue.

Beethoven and Mozart are always appropriate (the former for dramatic intimations of turbulence and war, the former for the precision that was demanded of Bertie’s speech), but more important: no music rights to be negotiated or paid.

[UTUSN]

18. That's what my saying it "humanized" the Royals was intended to allude to.

Last edited Sat Dec 12, 2020, 09:13 PM - Edit history (1)

"appropriate" is too strong for what I was saying about the irony of the Germanness vs rallying against the enemy.

Those two Masters are their own thing. The "appropriateness" in a movie is not about reflecting on them, but rather on what "works" and not CALLING ATTENTION TO ITSELF away from the content.

While public domain exists, surely it's not an issue with this, or actually any, movie, since there are MASSES of material that are in the public domain, not just these two. Surely there is more ENGLISH music that is in the public domain, and using something ringingly ENGLISH would have underscored the point of the protagonist's prevailing over his impairment and therefore pointing to prevailing over the GERMAN enemy.

[frazzled]

23. I can't see Elgar (whom I otherwise like)

working in that film (though I don’t recollect the details of the narrative that well). Britten’s War Requiem is one of the most beautiful works I know, but it wasn’t written until decades later.

Who’s to say what works. There are no Bernard Hermans anymore: now there was a composer who knew how to create music to move a narrative in the movies. Sound tracks are a special skill, not just plugging in existing music like a lot of today’s movies do.

[UTUSN]

22. ***Before hightailing it outta here, a "note" haha: The Pianist has been in the background

throughout this prolonged battle campaign, and (here's the punch line: )

I haven't heard a single danged tinkling of piano so far!1

And am not going to finish it.

[elleng]

25. BUT

Beethoven 250

5:36 pm
Symphony #9 in D Minor, Op. 125 "Choral": I. Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso
Ludwig van Beethoven
Vienna Philharmonic | Andris Nelsons (conductor)

https://weta.org/listen-live

[Indykatie]

26. I Won't Wade Into the Music Debate But TKS is A Favorite Because of Colin Firth's A+ Performance

[UTUSN]

32. Since the thread has been kicked courtesy of elleng, I'll answer.

MY topic is about the specified *scene* and its effectiveness impacted by all its components including the choice of background music.

It is not about whether the movie is good or not or whether the acting by anybody was good or not and certainly NOT about the quality of BEETHOVEN's music and totally NOT calling BEETHOVEN a Nazi (ridiculous!) - ALL of the movie was good. All of those other things are topics apart for threads apart.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

33. The King's Speech is one of Joe's favorite movies

Link to tweet

In Biden’s office, the first time I bring up his current stuttering, he asks me whether I’ve seen The King’s Speech. He speaks almost mystically about the award-winning 2010 film. “When King George VI, when he stood up in 1939, everyone knew he stuttered, and they knew what courage it took for him to stand up at that stadium and try to speak—and it gave them courage … I could feel that. It was that sinking feeling, like—oh my God, I remember how you felt. You feel like, I don’t know … almost like you’re being sucked into a black hole.”

Presidential candidates usually don’t speak about their bleakest moments, certainly not this viscerally. It resembles the way Biden writes in his memoir about the aftermath of the 1972 car accident that killed his first wife and young daughter and critically injured his two sons, Beau and Hunter: “I could not speak, only felt this hollow core grow in my chest, like I was going to be sucked inside a black hole.”

A few weeks later, I ask Jill Biden what she remembers about sitting next to her husband during the movie. “It was one of those moments in a marriage where you just sort of understand without words being spoken,” she says.

As he watched The King’s Speech, Biden accurately guessed that the screenwriter, David Seidler, was a stutterer. “He showed me a copy of a speech they found in an attic that the king had actually used, where he marks his—it’s exactly what I do!” Biden tells me, his voice lifting. “My staff, when I have them put something on a prompter—I wish I had something to show you.”