I don't understand anti-vaxxers.

[zanana1]

Can somebody please explain their logic to me? I know so many people who won't get vaccinated.

[paleotn]

1. That's just it

You have to completely turn off logic to begin to understand the mentality. Personally, I can’t turn it off, so I don’t even try.

[soldierant]

39. The crziest ones believe

that there is a chip in the vaccine which will tell Bill Gates everything about you for the rest of your life.

From there, it does get less outlandish, but slowly, and never does reach reality.

[Archae]

2. There is no logic involved.

They have a pet belief, (just like fervent religious beliefs) that have no evidence to back up, in fact all the available evidence shows just the opposite.

But to a zealot, like Robert Kennedy Jr, anything that says he or she is wrong is (fill in the blank conspiracy.)

[Proud Liberal Dem]

3. Doesn't make any sense to me

Unless it's contraindicated due to a medical condition, who *wants* to get sick when it's easily preventable and the risks are utterly negligible?

[rickyhall]

4. Would they prefer small pox and polio? Just askin'?

[OhZone]

5. There are degrees of anti-vaccers.

I mean - most of the are nutty and based their paranoia on bad debunked studies or even outright lies, but maybe with a drop of truth. They did used to have mercury in some vaccines. And other odd preservatives.

Now I'm all for the vaccines for the big things,polio, measles, etc.

But I don't do the yearly flu shot, because it's often not all that effective, and I don't want to have to research the ingredients every time. Yeah, I don't 100% trust the shifting preservatives that might be in a certain batch. It's not like the average food item where you can read in the ingredients right on the package.

So I am balanced in my skepticism.

But I will get the new covid vaccine.

[zanana1]

7. Are they afraid that it will change their body chemistry?

I've heard a few people say that the Covid vaccination doesn't work and will change the way their bodies work. Sounds crazy to me. Do you think that Fox News has claimed anything like that? When more than one person says the same thing, I figure they heard it somewhere.

[elias7]

14. Thimerosal preserved vaccines did contain mercury, about as much as in a can of tuna

It’s not really an odd preservative in that it really is not toxic and does prevent bacterial growth.

And the questionable efficacy of the flu shot. I hear that, but as someone who works in an ER, I rarely have seen people with influenza who had the vaccine, and further, I not had the flu in over 25 years despite my certain exposures (influenza vaccines are currently mandated where I am).

But one can already infer the seeds of doubt in your comment, not that you doubt, but to a mind that is a not interested in logic or following up on their curiosity, there might seem to be a drop of truth as you say but none really exists. No one has died of cyanide poisoning regardless of how many apples they have eaten, and now that we have 20 years of data about vaccines without thimerosal, have the anti-vaxxers taken the time to review autism incidence and epidemiology lately?

[zanana1]

16. I had my first shot last week.

I'm really happy about it. In no way do I doubt the safety of the vaccine. I'll be having my second next month and I always encourage others to get the vaccine, too.

[Major Nikon]

32. It also wasn't the same type of mercury in tuna

About Thimerosal

Mercury is a naturally occurring element found in the earth’s crust, air, soil, and water. Two types of mercury to which people may be exposed — methylmercury and ethylmercury — are very different.

Methylmercury is the type of mercury found in certain kinds of fish. At high exposure levels methylmercury can be toxic to people. In the United States, federal guidelines keep as much methylmercury as possible out of the environment and food, but over a lifetime, everyone is exposed to some methylmercury.

Thimerosal contains ethylmercury, which is cleared from the human body more quickly than methylmercury, and is therefore less likely to cause any harm.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/index.html

[Aristus]

20. Everyone loves to claim that they're "balanced".

They want a plausible claim to being reasonable.

But opposing the flu vaccine isn’t reasonable. There have been years when the general level of efficacy for the vaccine has been as low as 25%. But 25% can be the difference between life and death.

And it isn’t just about you. The vaccine also prevents the spread of the influenza virus.

I liken it to standing behind your door with a baseball bat when a burglar gets in. You clobber the burglar, and not only can he not rob your house, he can’t get out to rob anyone else’s.

So save your skepticism for something that merits it, like chemtrails or Scientology, and get your flu vaccine.

[OhZone]

22. I get what you're saying, and my ex who works in the medical field would agree, but -

Modern medicine is not perfect and deserves some skepticism. They've made plenty of deadly mistakes. And in some ways make a huge underlying mistake all the time.

As for burglars, I have multiple rings, my significant other is with me, she has some serious skills, and I'm armed pretty well.

Let me just put it this way, I've had doctors lie to me and at least one family member. My uncle is still pretty pissed about it.

And do you take every medication advertised on TV?

I mean, I'm fairly young, and I'm in good health, and I take all the anti-covid steps, actually more than most, but
all the medications basically have a disclaimer that says "may cause death."

Without the yearly vaccine, I've only gotten the flu once in the last... twenty years at least. The worse part lasted only two days, and no one else I know seems to have caught it from me. I'm an extrovert, but I know to isolate when I'm sick.

They are not like the new virus. The new virus can be spread when you aren't even experiencing symptoms. Colds and flus are not that easily spread when you are asymptomatic.

So cool your jets and let people have a tiny, little leeway with their own bodies.

I agree kids should get their shots, and everyone who can should get an anti-covid vaccine, but you can't be a total slave to medicine, when most doctors aren't even properly trained in nutrition. Nutrition and exercise are the foundations of health.

A lot of medicine is just about making money and pushing drugs,rather than dealing with the whole person. Even my ex who says "get your flu shot" agrees with that.

[Aristus]

24. If you re-read what I wrote, nowhere did I say modern medicine was perfect.

And no, I don’t take every medication advertised on TV. No one does, and you knew that when you wrote it. That was a bad argument. I certainly don’t prescribe every medication advertised on TV. I prescribe very conservatively, and only when conservative measures have failed.

It’s popular to bash medical providers as being obsessed only with money, and practicing medicine unethically toward that end. And there certainly are those providers out there. They get all the attention, and suck all the oxygen out of the room.

But most of us are simply giving our patients good care, and trying to alert them to all of the medical misinformation out there. We also try to correct skeptics who, sometimes out of the best of intentions, embrace and spread harmful beliefs and practices.

One of those is that the flu vaccine is a unnecessary money-maker for the pharmaceutical companies. When the truth is, there really is no profit in manufacturing vaccine. The drug companies distribute vaccine because it’s a public health requirement.

In a time of empty-headed contrary behavior, it can be tempting to thumb one’s nose at people who are working sincerely for the public good. But it’s harmful in the extreme.

[OhZone]

28. Well, you're better than my old Uncle's doctors -

His main doc was trying to be holistic with him, but he really didn't know what that meant.

His main doc's partner wanted to prescribe 4 medications to him.

He went back to his main doc, who wanted to prescribe just one, not all four.

I don't remember everything Uncle Nick said about it all, but he left those docs, went to a new doc who recommended no meds and some nutritional changes, and less coffee.

I won't go into the doc who lied to me.

So, yeah, skepticism.

You do seem better than the docs I mention above.

But I do not completely trust any authority.

Sorry.

BTW, my current doc has mixed feelings about the yearly flu vaccine too.

[Aristus]

30. I'm a Physician Assistant, not a doctor.

In some ways, that frees me from a lot of expectations as to how a medical practitioner should practice. Also, my daily clinical schedule, though almost always hectic, is less packed than that of an MD. I usually get fifteen minutes or so with my patients, while an MD rarely gets more than five.

I can understand, if not condone, a doctor who scribbles out a quick prescription for the patient, then moves on to the next one. It keeps productivity high, but decreases the quality of clinical outcomes.

With the slightly higher budget of time I have with my patients, I can weigh the need for medication over conservative measures such as lifestyle changes. I always champion prevention over intervention. And that's where immunizations come in. I always take the time to clarify the misinformation people bring in with them regarding vaccines. I'm successful maybe 50% of the time. The skeptics rarely come back to see me, knowing I don't practice pick-and-choose medicine. If one walks in my door seeking medical advice, one has the options of following it, or finding another provider.

[Major Nikon]

25. Mercury still exists in some vaccines

There was never pure mercury in any vaccine, always a molecule that contained mercury and not all molecules of mercury are the same in regards to human exposure. To make a long story short, the type used in vaccines was never an issue which has been borne out by countless studies and expert opinions which tend to trump the anti-vax loons who posited the issue to begin with.

There was a freak out in regards to mercury in vaccines that never had any basis in fact or reality. Such preservatives make multi-dose vials of vaccines practical. The results were manufacturers stopped making many types of multi-dose vials. It never made anyone any safer and all it really accomplished was making vaccines more expensive which disparately impacts those who can least afford it. You can thank anti-vaxxers for that.

So the so called "skepticism" you are offering is really nothing more than anti-vax bullshit whether or not you realize it, and believe it or not perpetuating that ignorance does manage to kill people.

[brush]

6. At one time they thought vaccinations caused autism. Who knows now what their expanded beliefs are.

[Archae]

23. "At one time?" They still do.

Just look up "vaccinations and autism."

[Major Nikon]

33. As I'm sure you know at one time DU was infested with anti-vax loons

Most either left, corrected their ignorance, or just learned to STFU about the bullshit that kills people.

Every single one of them, without exception, claimed not to be anti-vaxxers even as they were parroting out anti-vax bullshit from their no-shit batshit crazy anti-vax sources. Every single one of them claimed their skepticism was justified. It wasn't. They were either loons themselves or they were ignorant enough to parrot out loony nonsense as if it were anything but.

[Archae]

37. Unfortunately, the anti-vaxxers really haven't left.

When I've slammed Robert Kennedy Jr for his anti-vaxx zealotry, I get excuses, more often then not.

Yes, the anti-vaxxers have stopped posting the shit from anti-vaxx websites.

But the attitudes still are most likely active.

[OnDoutside]

8. Lack of critical thinking and easily influenced by wrong information

sources, when you are only receiving low levels of information.

[demigoddess]

9. my doctor called me an anti-vaxxer because I didn't get the flu vaccine for

a few years. But I have never had the flu, my parents never had the flu, my children never got the flu. so I figured leave the shot for someone who needed it.

[Aristus]

21. Everyone needs it. Get your flu vaccine.

Believe me, I understand the allure of thinking “I’m different. I’m special. I’m better. I’m stronger.”

It’s what keeps motivational speakers employed.

But we still get thousands of deaths per year from the flu. No doubt at least a few of those people had forgone the influenza vaccine due to such “I’m special” thinking.

[demigoddess]

38. I have been getting the flu vaccine for the last few years but I'm not special, I just never had the

flu, even though I was exposed to it. My husband would get the flu shot every year for a long time, and he would then come down with a mild version of it, and breathe all over me.

[OhZone]

29. Some docs seem to be using the anti-vaxxer label to put you in the same group -

as science deniers.

It's very manipulative.

[jpak]

10. They are ignorant Dingbats

That is all.

Yup

[randr]

11. They deny logic so it would be hard to explain their motives

[mysteryowl]

12. There are all different kinds of anti-vaxxers

I have a friend that did not vaccinate her two daughters and is against the covid vaccine.
For her children she believed the many vaccines given to children screw up their budding immune system.

[Kaleva]

13. Humans are not rational beings.

[mopinko]

15. it's the dysinfo of the left.

ppl making money by pretending there are questions when there arent.

[Wicked Blue]

17. A friend of mine "doesn't trust" the vaccines

I told her I got my first shot a few weeks ago and didn't have any problems, but she still doesn't trust them. I was afraid to ask why. Does she think the doses include microchips? She's been brainwashed by Fox News for a long time so heaven knows what crazy stuff she believes.

We've been friends for more than 30 years, and we try to avoid discussing politics. But yesterday I got so exasperated with her on the phone that I wished I could shake some sense into her. Instead, I told her I didn't want to continue the conversation and ended it.

She had a mild case of COVID-19 last year, but doesn't feel COVID is a big problem overall. Nobody she knows has had it, and her husband didn't catch it from her, so to her, that proves it's no big deal. I kept asking her - a half million people have died, and that's not a problem?

They moved to Florida a year ago to live near her best friend since elementary school. I fear her friend shares her loony ideas and they reinforce each other. And her husband is even more into right-wing nuttery.

Now that she's in Florida, she says she feels "free." Hardly anyone she sees in Florida wears a mask. She claims she can't breathe while wearing a mask because she has COPD. Now she has a doctor's note excusing her from wearing one. So does her friend. If she goes someplace where a mask is absolutely required, she wears a face shield, but I can't imagine that that would offer any real protection to herself or others.

Florida, she said, has freedom, in the sense that very few places are closed and people are maskless and COVID doesn't seem to be a big concern. They can go to restaurants. She is delusional, and I have no way to try talking sense to her. I hope she and her husband don't end up catching one of the new variants.

I sometimes toy with ending the friendship, but we've known each other more than 30 years, since we and our kids met at YWCA swim classes. We went to their kids' bar and bat mitzvahs, they came to our daughter's wedding, and so on. And she has many good qualities. Among other things they adopt quite a few rescue dogs and work with them to overcome their fears and traumas, and give them good lives.

[Mr.Bill]

18. Most of them are crybabies

who are afraid of needles.

[hamsterjill]

19. Then I'm a crybaby.

I’m one of the few who have a morbid fear of injections. To me, it’s very real. Stems from childhood trauma. I faint. It causes an issue with others in line behind me. They have to wait while I’m tended to. It makes others fearful seeing it happen. I sometimes throw up, and there’s never consideration given for that in these mass vaccination sites. Bathrooms are never anywhere near. You’re just run through like cattle and expected to deal.

Would you want to be in line behind me?

[Mr.Bill]

26. Well, I did say most, not all.

I, too had a fear of needles that stemmed from a childhood incident. I went 50 years without a needle being stuck into me. Finally I went ahead with a flu shot because the hospital I volunteered at required it. The tiny needles they use today are pretty much painless if you relax your arm. Now, for the last five years, I'm a regular pin cushion. Flu shot every year, blood draw every year for my annual physical, etc. The blood draw is a larger needle, but still doesn't hurt so much. A good phlebotomist helps, too.

What changed for me is seeing my dogs get shots without seemingly realizing it was even happening. It's because they don't know it's coming so they don't go through all the anxiety in the days leading up to it. It's different for every person but that's what works for me. Just don't think about it and relax. And don't look at it.

[hamsterjill]

27. But did you ever actually faint?

There's a difference in my opinion of a "fear" and an actual inability to control your reaction. I've actually fainted dead away before. I fell and hit my head the first time it happened as I was not aware it was going to happen.

The most recent time was having an iv inserted. I was fine until the drip started flowing, then I went full green and sweaty. There was an anesthesiologist near and he came and monitored me until the episode passed. I was near blacking out, but didn't go all the way that time. The feeling of losing consciousness is frightening.

For people like me, there really needs to be an avenue for us to go where we can be handled privately so as not to scare people who are waiting around us. I want to get the vaccine and I will get it. Probably the J&J as it's one instead of two. But it would be simpler if I could get it in a doctor's office where I could lie down, have my legs elevated, etc. This is not something that people like me can control.

[Mr.Bill]

31. No, I've never fainted.

You are not the only one who has these issues. Perhaps your doctor can arrange something for you. Best of luck to you and I hope you can get the vaccine some way that works for you.

[hamsterjill]

34. Thank you.

I appreciate that. Unfortunately, my doctor doesn't seem to take it very seriously. I realize that for most people, it's not a concern, and I realize that I'm in the minority.

Peace.

[birdographer]

35. This sounds awful.

Fear is a powerful thing. It takes over. Is there anything short-term that you could take to stifle your anxiety just long enough to get back home? At least it's only twice and then you are done. I guess you could apologize in advance to the person behind you, or warn the person giving the shot so they could provide a chair to sit in or a bag if you lose your lunch over it.

I have fainted in a dentist chair. My fear at the dentist is overwhelming.

[hamsterjill]

36. I plan to make the medical personnel aware and apologize.

They are allowing people to sit down thankfully. I scoped out the location that I'll most likely go to.

I'm trying to learn some techniques to help with this. One is to be very hydrated, and there are ways to clench muscles to keep the blood flowing to help keep from fainting. I'll take my own bag, along with some wet wipes and an ice pack.

I understand about the dentist. Been there, too. I finally found a fantastic dentist who has made a world of difference for me in THAT department. I wish I could find a medical doctor that would be as compassionate and helpful. The doctor I see right now just seems to think that since it poses no "real" threat physically, that you just deal with it. I don't think she gets the psychological aspect of this.

While I don't think my particular situation poses a medical concern, I do worry as I get older about how this might affect me physically. The last time with the iv situation that I mentioned down post seemed to take a lot longer for me to recover from.

Fear IS a powerful thing. Thanks for understanding.