When did we start pronouncing "Kiev" as "Keev?"

[Orrex]

In my entire life I never heard it pronounced that way until a few days ago, but now that's apparently the way it's always been pronounced.

I should mention that half of my family is from Ukraine, and none of them--even the ones who were born there--ever pronounced it as "Keev." It was always the two syllable "kee-yev."


Did I miss a memo?

[padfun]

1. People mispronounce our own towns too

Many pronounce Boise as if it has a Z in it.

[Orrex]

2. I admit that I've never heard Boise pronounced other than Boy-Z

Still, the change to "Keev" happened in the last week or so, and now it's all I hear. It certainly wasn't the prevailing pronunciation the last time Russia invaded Ukraine.


What prompted the change this time around, I wonder?

[unblock]

3. My grandparents were both from near there

They always pronounced it as a single syllable, but with a very clear 'y' sound.

Basically "yev" but with a 'k' sound at the start.

"Kyev"

[Orrex]

5. I can get behind that

And honestly I may have misheard some of my immigrant family members' strong "Y" as a separate syllable, like I imagine that "nyet" might have sounded like "nee-yet" to my young ears.

But they definitely didn't say "Keev."

[unblock]

6. Agreed. The emphasis was on the 'e' sound, not the 'y'

[sop]

4. "God created war so that Americans would learn geography" - Mark Twain

And how to pronounce foreign place names.

[kairos12]

24. I think Twain was wrong. Americans probably still can't locate Pear Harbor.

[Orrex]

29. Does it have a Partridge in it?

[kairos12]

30. Ding, ding. We have a winner!

😀

[frazzled]

7. Well, it's not pronounced "Keev"

Although I don't think most of us could pronounce it correctly, because it's not in our phonetic wheelhouse. Here are two videos that give the correct pronunciation, one explaining the history of the name, the other the phonetic components:

[Harker]

19. When she says it...

it sounds more like "k(r)eeyeev" to me.

I'm confused, as is often the case.

[EYESORE 9001]

8. I'm fairly certain

that my mouth doesn’t have enough moving parts to pronounce it correctly.

[Harker]

9. We?

I don't say "divissive" for "divisive" either.

[Fiendish Thingy]

10. It's the difference between the Russian pronunciation and the Ukrainian

Also, language evolves. I’m old enough to remember when the capital of China was called Peking, not the current Beijing.

[Orrex]

15. Language evolves, sure, but seldom in the course of a few weeks, barring catastrophe.

Also, "evolving" is different from "foreign power finally recognizing how the locals say something," which is I believe what happened in the case of Peking and also Bombay, while we're at it. And even that took years to gain traction.

And I cite again my immigrant relatives who pronounced it differently from how newscasters have now decided to say it.


It almost feels like some agenda is at play, with the "Keev" pronunciation meant to send some kind of message to one or more parties involved. It strikes me as similar to how Bush Sr. deliberately mispronounced "Saddam," or the way it's now become trendy to refer to "an-TEE-fa" instead of "AN-tee-fa."

In the latter case, it seems clear that the speaker is trying to distance "Antifa" from its anti-fascist essence, and by stressing the second syllable rather than the first.

I first heard that, incidentally, while working a lengthy job where Fux Noise was playing. One centrist guest would mention "AN-tee-fa," and the Reichwing commentator would then refer to "an-TEE-fa" multiple times, apparently to override the guest's pronunciation.

[Kali]

21. this is what I was thinking it must be

[2naSalit]

11. When we started listening to the people who live there.

[Orrex]

13. Possibly, but see my earlier point about family members who were born there

Heck, some locals in my current region pronounce it "Picksburg,"

[2naSalit]

12. Part of this is because...

Americanized English is riddled with diphthongs and we have done so to this and many words that originate in other languages we don't know well.

[Orrex]

14. But the pronunciation shifted very recently

And just about every newscaster I've heard since then has jumped on board with this new pronunciation, from NPR to CNN to ABC to local channels.

[2naSalit]

16. Probably advised to...

By someone offscreen. I was using the two syllable version until my friends from the region corrected me.

[Orrex]

17. But do you now say "Keev" or "Kyev?"

Again, my family's pronunciation of Kiev was was "Kyev".

[2naSalit]

18. I rarely even speak the word!

But I say "Keev" now.

[Orrex]

20. Interesting.

Also, I'd like you to start saying at least once per hour in conversation.

Thanks!

[2naSalit]

23. Snort!

If I had any reason to say it.
Nobody to actually talk to except on the phone.
I don't really have much to say on the Ukraine issue, just watching and hoping it calms down.


Not sure if I mentioned I studied linguistics in college and had a job/project where I had to interview several people from Ukraine and they all said "Keev" but i didn't start saying that way until my friends from the region told me that I said it wrong.

I just think of it as another Americanization of a word originating in another language, I try to say words like their native speakers do when using non-English words.

[Kali]

22. I first heard it during the first impeachment hearings for the orange asshole

had never heard it as Keev beefore that.

[demmiblue]

27. Same (from Ambassador Yovanovitch). n/t

[Deep State Witch]

25. Ukrainian Pronunciation

versus Russian pronunciation. There are subtle differences between the two languages. My Russian prof was actually Ukrainian. Therefore, what little Russian I can speak (after 35 years) is with a Ukrainian accent.

[Totally Tunsie]

26. The same "evolution" is true of Copenhagen.

For years it was pronounced as Copen-HAW-gan, but the Danes themselves prefer Copen-HAY-gen as a way of ridding the German influence on the pronunciation. (I was corrected with this explanation when visiting this beautiful city a few years ago.)

I've noticed the shift to "Keev" also, but I heard it much earlier than the "few days ago"
you mention.

[Orrex]

28. Interesting

I admit that Kiev, by whatever pronunciation, doesn't come up often in my conversations, but the "few days ago" refers to the widespread shift in the way news media are pronouncing it.

I fully believe that you noticed it before I did.

Something similar occurred, in my perception at least, when Katrina hit years ago. In the run-up to the storm, newscasters in my broadcast area referred again and again to Louisiana and New Orleans, but almost the instant that the storm hit they all started referring to "NOLA."

I mentioned it on DU at the time and was, predictably, attacked by posters who insisted that no one in the history of the universe had ever referred to the city except as NOLA.


Ok, that I might be exaggerating that last part a bit.

[lpbk2713]

31. About fifty years ago Saigon was on the news multiple times every night.

I still don't know if it's SAIgon or SaiGON.

[Skittles]

32. there's a Warby Parker commerical where the gal says JEW-LER-REE

instead of JEW-EL-RY

I'm also increasingly hearing KITTEN pronounced as KIT-EN instead of KIT-TEN

I REALLY hate it when someone tells me they pronounce PEN as "PIN", as if THAT is correct

yeah, mispronunciations drive me nuts too

it's KEE-YEV !!!!!

[3catwoman3]

33. There are so many language annoyances.

- joolery/jew-ler-ee instead of jewelry (as you already noted)

- relator instead of realtor (even by those in the profession)

-mear instead of mirror

- prolly instead of probably

- should/could of instead of should/could have

[applegrove]

34. I noticed it around the time Crimea was invaded by the Russians. I found

Last edited Tue Feb 1, 2022, 04:19 AM - Edit history (1)

out then not to say "The" Ukraine too.

[Orrex]

35. Growing up, I always heard it referred to as "The Ukraine," even in Geography class

Not sure when I became aware of the correct designation, but I know that my grandmother used to refer to relatives "still in the Ukraine."

[applegrove]

36. Yes. I think I got it from my grandmother too. I think.

[Totally Tunsie]

37. Well, THAT explains that!

Just stated on the NBC News:

Kyiv is now pronounced "Keev" because that's the pronunciation that Ukrainians use.

"Key-ev" is the pronunciation that Russians use.

So, "Keev" it is!

[Orrex]

38. I'm down with that.

As mentioned above, my straight-from-the-Ukraine family pronounced it Key-ev, but that was long years ago, when Ukraine was still called "the Ukraine," so I'm happy to change with the times.