the number six tastes like moth

[Not Heidi]

My 17-year-old nephew is clever. He told me that numbers have flavors:

One is dirt
Two is green
Three is scratchy
Four tastes like a menthol cigarette smells
Any multiple of five is cherry
Six is moth
Seven is metal
Eight is insulation
Nine is brick

I told him he's got quite an imagination, and he said, "Someone's gotta make people happy and smile."

He sure made me smile. 😁

[Irish_Dem]

1. This is called synesthesia.

Last edited Sat Apr 1, 2023, 11:39 AM - Edit history (1)

Where a person experiences one sense through another.
Experiences more than one sensation associated with a stimulus.

It is not considered a mental illness, but a rare type
of cognitive perception and processing.

It is associated with higher levels of intelligence and memory.
And is highly inheritable.

I myself used to feel sensations with numbers as a child.
Even numbers were smooth and full. Odd numbers were scratchy and off kilter.
The number four was particularly smooth and beautiful for some reason.

Evolutionary psychologists have studied this human trait, it seems to be sticking around
so must have some benefit.

[mopinko]

3. i have a friend who has been a painter all her life. she hears colors.

her father ran an art colony on catalina island. she is a truly amazing painter.
shared a studio w her for several years and the talks we had…

she knew several other people who had the same gift. a couple of painters and a pianist who saw notes.

[Irish_Dem]

4. Yes could be associated with artistic types.

Yes when I was a child, when I thought of a number, I saw a little picture floating in my mind's eye.

My mind's eye, little pictures in my head, has always been quite active.

I just assumed everyone else saw these pictures too.

As an adult I was shocked to learn others don't have these pictures in their heads.
Can't imagine what is must be like not to have them.

[mopinko]

5. ya know, i think the word neurodivergent

should have a much broader application than it has now. my brain has all sorts of unusual circuits and a lot of the artists i know do too.
i have a friend from art school who was sort of an artist/savant as a kid. a crazy good artist back then, but got a degree in special ed. i know her students were so lucky to have her. rly good writer, too.
as a little kid, she could paint w both hands, 2 completely different pictures, at.the.same.time. if you know anything about how art is processed in the brain, you know that that is just deeply strange.

i dont think like other ppl about almost anything. former gifted child, but also slightly brain damaged as a kid. lookin around the world, i sometimes wonder if the ‘normal ppl’ arent the oddballs.

[Irish_Dem]

6. Took me a long time to realize that I am the weird one, and others are the normal ones. :(

We are only recently learning about how the brain functions.

It has not been a serious topic of interest until the last decade or so.

Yes there is no perfect brain and we are all wired differently.
So there isn't really a "normal" brain.

Yes I am wired very differently from most people and when I was young I thought I was the normal one
and that there was something very off with other people. It took me some time to realize I am the weird one.

Some differences are seen are seen as a problem, some are considered genius or gifted.

I once knew someone who was a true genius. Up in the 99th percentile of IQ.
He had more advanced degrees than you could shake a stick at: law degree, medical degree, quite a few PhDs.

But he was not happy as he never fit in with any peer group or profession and he was soon quite bored.
So his very high IQ was a handicap for him.

I took at class in graduate school titled: Genius or Madness?
The bottom line is that a genius is different from others, that is what makes them special.
They see the world in a totally different way from the rest of the world.
But that abnormality can make them appear crazy to others.
So there is a fine line between genius and insanity.

[mopinko]

8. i've been know to say-

some say it’s a fine line, in my case, it’s a permeable membrane.

i know just how that guy feels. i am 1 of many i know who are equally interested in the arts and the sciences. so many of us ended up not rly doing either. just as u say, we suck it up, then want to move on. i find myself reinventing myself every decade or so. tho. mother nature is remaking me as we speak.
i’ve had many depressive episodes, but it’s when i hit a good place that ppl start to wonder about me. i go from project to project w low spots in between, and it can look bipolar. i dont f things up tho. i dont lack control.

brains have been a topic of interest from my 1st kid, tho. i have 5, all geniuses, all a tad cray.
i’ve watched the science of it unfold in my lifetime. brains, humans, endlessly fascinating to me.
i wrote in my artist statement, back when i was on that path, after my kids got big enough to go back to that-
there were no spots on jane goodall’s team in africa, so i grew my own little troop of apes, and watched them evolve.

it was quite a trip.

[Irish_Dem]

10. ...

Yes I can well imagine your household and children. All of that intellect, talent and interest flying around.

[mopinko]

11. whatever else it was, it was real.

[electric_blue68]

16. I love art, art making, and many of the earth, and space sciences...

I chose art related stuff - commercial arts, abstract ssemblage sculpture, drawing for myself, hope to back to small paintings (doing digital art now). I also make unique wire jewelry since the early '90s, but doing bead stringing since being a teen.
I learned knitting by a book, then crocheting by Internet photos/text - there weren't many videos back then in my late 40's, early 50's.

I follow a good amount of science articles, occasional books, radio, and TV programs when I had one. I couldn't hack chemistry, higher math, basic physics principles, so I never applied to Bronx Science HS. Went to Music and Art instead.

[electric_blue68]

17. Because I was born premature by 6+ wks back in the early 50's I was tested for cognitive, IQ stuff..

because I believe I was in some of the hospital incubator sections that were then using a certain amount of oxygen than before. The studies had passed, and then put into more general practice at least here in NYC. This was too prevent blindness, the kind that got Stevie Wonder several years earlier.

But I'm guessing they wondered whether the brain was affected. So I had tests every year or so for a while. I have one vague memory of arranging a certain type of blocks. (shrug) Then one time my neighbor and friend's older brother in college 10+ yes later did a psych test on me as well.

My dad told me he was considered in the top 5%, but I was in the top 2%. I think what made it so was I was told I have a nearly off the chart ability for abstraction. So that's one kind of intelligence.

Luckily Art hasn't usually bored me more frustration at times not being able to paint one of the ways I loved to - not photo realistic, but realistic enough. Whether sort or old masterish being that abstract painting was big when I was growing up, or more modernistic realism. I love really good Science Fiction illustration; book covers.
I happen to also love painting abstract, and I have in the past.
Doing digital abstract, too, but trying to do more realistic images.

And reading a certain amount of science articles keeps me fascinated, too.

I also love Science Fiction, some magical realism and have wanted to paint certain scenes I've read. Why I love good SF TV; for the stories, characters and the visuals!

[Irish_Dem]

19. I was lucky, my pediatrician had just heard about the incubator oxygen causing blindness

and he came in and turned mine off.

I did not have psych testing but should have.
I have some deficits and a raw neurological system, it didn't get fully baked!

It sounds like you are very visual with a good imagination.
When you read words, you can see the scene in front of you.

This is a kind of abstraction, you can see visual concepts beyond the words.

[electric_blue68]

22. Oh, freaking Woah!!! Lucky, Lucky, Lucky you! ...

Woah, a bit flabbergasted... never met anyone who was in that age range range of being potentially affected!

Well, my nerve system might have been a bit more sensitive for a while. If I itched and scratched myself I often got these temporary small but visible welts.
Called dermatographia/ism, "skin writing". Went away in my mid teens or so.

But remember my sis and our cousins were on a ocean liner when our grandmother's sister was going to head back to Greece. We were going write the room # number down.
But one of my count grabbed my arm and said "here, we can write it on Cathy.". When he proceeded to do. Oh, boy.
______________________________

Yup, I often can visualize what I am reading. The better the description the better I can detail it as the writer created it.
Which for me is why I love to put down on paper what I've "seen".

[Irish_Dem]

24. I don't think I have ever knowingly met someone who was in an incubator in the same time period.

We both lucked out for sure. I didn't know that was why Stevie Wonder was blind.

Yes you most likely had a raw neurological system for awhile.
I still do in a number of ways. Including the skin sensitivity you describe.

Ouch about your darn cousin.

Yes you would be a very good book illustrator for sure.

[electric_blue68]

25. I only found about SW because x years ago - not too many; they were celebrating the....

researchers/doctor who came up with the idea of reducing the oxygen level that was causing the blindness. It could have been a big anniversary number. SW was named bc maybe he was mentioned in the scientific literature or something once he became well known.

Oh, you still have the skin writing. I believe there's a woman artist who does art that way. Mayo Clinic says it harmless unless it bothers a person emotionally.

I just thought of something that also might have a sensitivity that went away. When we used to go to the beach as kids, maybe my tweens, early teens when I breathed in deeply the salt air would hurt my lower throat, maybe part of my bronchial tubes - can't say for sure because we're talking 55+ ys or so ago.
Anyway it disappeared at some point around then, and I forgot about it.
I was then quite comfortable at the oceanside.

I think I was more surprised that my cuz did that. Maaaaybe a bit embarrassed, idk! I didn't realize anyone had noticed.

[Irish_Dem]

28. Premature babies have a different body language from full term babies.

Last edited Mon Apr 3, 2023, 06:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Premature babies are less mature, smaller, more sensitive to touch and noise, and not as strong. So yes their bodies are going to be more sensitive to stimuli.

[electric_blue68]

26. Ah, if only my art skills had been better at the time back then for pro work. l'm still...

working on them. 👍
Still improving.

I actually did some B&W Illustrations for some amateur (they make enough money to cover the printing/mailing costs) zines (for fictional stories others wrote) in the late '80s, early '90s. So at least I got to do something!

[electric_blue68]

14. I don't have it - synethesia, that is; but I find it fascinating!

I do have a very vivid "mind's eye". And I am a visual artist.

One the most exciting things as an artist was finally getting more artistic skills in the very early-mid '80's (early 30s) to be able to put down much better on paper what I could see in my mind's eye. I'm hoping to do better paintings than I did way back. Slowly practicing with a wonderful smartphone adapted digital art app.
_________________________

I don't why anyone would lable it a mental illness vs the "wires" from one sense being unexpectedly connected to another sense.

While not the same do you remember when some DU'r asked if others' had a ?"internal monologue" going on at times, always etc. I do.

[Irish_Dem]

18. Right, it is not seen as a mental illness.

Just a variation of cognitive and visual processing.
It is a genetic brain wiring issue.

And also we know there is no perfect brain.
We all have some quirky wiring.

The vivid mind's eye is an interesting thing isn't it?
Do you have a good visual memory? Because I think it loads on that.
I am sure that helps you in your art work.

What is a visual artist compared to other type artists?

Yes I saw that comment about inner dialogue.
I have that as well, a very rich inner life with pictures and internal dialogue.
I think it is associated with being a strong introvert.

I often wonder what is is like to not have that going on.
People with just nothing happening.

As an artist you might find it interesting about seeing pictures with numbers.
As a child I saw the even numbers as very pretty, well shaped, full.
Odd numbers were deflated, scratchy, poorly designed, collapsing.
"Four" was the prettiest number followed by "two."
Threes and sevens were pathetic looking.

[electric_blue68]

20. I have a I'd say a very good visual memory. It definitely helps to be able to "hold"....

images in my mind to reference, to blend together sometimes etc. Sometimes the images are strong, sometimes vaguer. I had a modest visual reference set of files. But now we have the internet! 👍🧡

Oh, I referred to a visual artist bc occasionally the word artist is used for the other arts as well; writing, dance, etc.

Your numbers descriptions are quite interesting. Never heard a person with a type of synethesia describe something that accurately. Usually it's more vague. Still I haven't read a lot on it. I should look up more.

I'm an an ambivert; 2/3 extrovert, 1/3 introvert.

Yeah, you could wonder what people without an inner dialouge "have". Like you said - "nothing"?!

[Irish_Dem]

23. I think a lot of people don't look closely at the mind's eye pictures.

They just take the pictures for granted and ignore them petty much.

It takes some practice, but if you look carefully and closely at the pictures in your head
you will get a lot more information. When I was younger I used to have almost perfect
photographic memory but it is gone now.

I am 100% introvert.

I have asked people what it is like to see no pictures or have no inner dialogue and they
are puzzled and have no idea what to say. It is like I am asking a question in a foreign language.

Obviously they are thinking about things, making internal decisions, etc.
But it must manifest in a different way.

Thanks for the explanation about a visual artist, I see what you mean now.

[electric_blue68]

27. Sorry missed this one...

I don't I've ever had the the conversation with anyone except the inner dialogue one here on DU.

I'll definitely have to ask some of my family & friends.

I could see how it might come across as a "foreign language"to some - those kind of questions.
Certainly it seems like a foreign concept to them.

"Obviously they are thinking about things, making interngal decisions, etc.
But it must manifest in a different way."

I guess so! Hard to know without being able to explain it.

[Irish_Dem]

29. Synesthesia is thought to be inherited in some cases.

Perhaps the mind's eye is a form of that.
So it would be interesting to see if your family has it too.

The thing about it is that scientists cannot figure out why it is an inherited trait.
What purpose does it serve in terms of evolution?

[electric_blue68]

30. Inherited? Hmmm, off hand I can't think of a direct advantage...

Maybe to spark different levels, types of creativity?

I'll have to ask at next family gathering. We might finally have one again (re Covid).

[Irish_Dem]

31. Yes it is thought to be connected to artistic/creative ability.

I don't have artistic talent, but I have an eye for what looks good.
People always think someone staged my home, but I just can put things
together in a pleasing way.

I love looking at couture fashion, even though personally I just wear leggings and sweaters.
After the Met Gala, my cousin and I spend weeks arguing about the red carpet outfits,
hemlines, necklines, detailing.

[electric_blue68]

36. You have a good sense of design, then. 👍 Nice to get compliments......

I love the Met gala!

I get a kick when Colbert sometimes talks about it the next day.

My sis and I being in NYC have gone to the Met's Fashion Inst Exhibit soon after the gala (not in '20, 21, she went later in '22 but I wouldn't) for at least 5 years in May - so 5 big shows. Sometimes they have a smaller, different one starting in Nov. Great fun!

I love things from jeans to high coutre I could never afford! 😄 I've gotten a few cool pieces from my sis. I bought a couple of cool things when I had mid middle class money.

I've fancied plain outfits up with jewelry gifted to me, bought by me (earlier), or made by me; strung, or or unique wire pieces.

Learned to do simple knitting & crocheting for decorative scarves, chunky crocheted hats, one very big cowl, 2 scarves. Someday a vest (I have the yarn just not the patience for repetition med - big projects), maaaaybe a shawl or 2 ( 😄 ).

[Irish_Dem]

37. I wish we had a fashion forum here on DU.

One of my cousins and I have some of the same weird brain wiring and we once visited
one of the Boston Museums when they had a vintage couture collection exhibit.

We both got totally fixated on a 1930 Coco Chanel with sublime, exquisite beading and embroidery
and entered a different dimension as we looked. People had started to line up behind us.
Oblivious, we were mortified when they told us to move on.

I love to look at the stuff, but would never it.

Yes I love looking at jewelry too.
Loved crochet when younger. I should do something again with that hobby.

[electric_blue68]

50. Maybe we could ask about adding one? As far as crochet...

Give a try again. So many new patterns, types of yarns etc 👍

Back to fashion - my mom trained as dressmaker. At one point in California where she'd gone she was sewing tiny beads, and pearls on some fancy dress!

She ended up coming back to NYC. Later on after she married my dad he wouldn't let her work.
She did make us such well made clothes. Dresses, skirts, fancier dance dresses for school, and one wedding, fuzzy cape & hood for the beach, rare pants (she hated those), a shift for me, a few shirts for my dad, and one of the a light spring coat for me
Some looking like they came from Sak's Fifth Ave.

[Irish_Dem]

51. What a treat to watch your mother sew, the fabrics, etc.

That is so neat. Sounds like she was so talented.

Yes I think I am going to do a blanket or shawl.
I keep looking at the large yarn, it looks like so much fun.

[Not Heidi]

7. My sister told me that this morning.

Also, my nephew has Asperger's. Is there a tie-in with that and synesthesia?

[mopinko]

9. i wouldnt be surprised.

they say the essence of genius is connecting ideas that dont appear to be connected.
in the biology of the thing, it’s ppl whose brains are more interconnected than most. ppl who are gifted in both visual arts and writing have been shown to have a thicker corpus collosum, the bundle of nerves that connects the hemispheres. those things exist in opposite sides of the brain.

i assume that the phenom is caused by an unusual interconnection of nerves. since we know apregers is an unusual set of connections, it makes sense.
of course, nerve connections arent inherent. they are built by experiences. i found my newborn babies fascinating to watch, as they stared and stared at things, then watching their rem sleep, knowing that the mains were being laid for their minds.

[Irish_Dem]

13. The ability to connect dots is an interesting talent.

To take a large amount of data and see patterns and connections.

There are a lot of things I cannot do, but I do have an ability to connect dots and see patterns other people miss.

It is a frustrating talent, because other people cannot see what you see. They call you names, say you are wrong, or say you are just speculating which is apparently some sort of major sin!

Then when people finally see the dots connecting, at long last, they claim everybody knew it all along. So you never get credit or an apology. So it is one of those pain in the ass talents.

[Irish_Dem]

12. Synesthesia is related to both Asperger's and the normal population.

About 18% of Asperger's have synesthesia, while the normal population has about 8%.

So yes would be related to Asperger's but not exclusively so.

This is from a 2013 study and I didn't see anything more current.

I don't have Asperger's but I was born two months premature, so my brain wiring is off.

[markie]

2. I like that

[Ocelot II]

15. Synesthesia.

I have a touch of it with respect to music. Mozart is usually an icy clear blue, for example.

[Irish_Dem]

32. Yes this is called chromesthesia. People hear a sound and see a color.

Like all the synesthesia it is relatively rare, about 1 in 3000 experience it.

[3catwoman3]

21. A tiny tale to add to this fascinating...

…thread.

When I was learning the names of numbers as a very young child, my mother and grandmother were intrigued that I called the number 8 a “struggle” rather than 8.

I don’t know if I would like to have synesthesia all the time, but I’d certainly love to experience for a while. At least I think would.

[Irish_Dem]

33. Do you remember why you called the number 8 "struggle." ???

Was it what you were hearing others say or something you felt or saw in your mind?

If you have synesthesia, it is present at birth, so it just feels normal.

[3catwoman3]

34. I'm now about to be 72 and this would have been way back when I was...

…3-4 or so, so not really. Just a guess that my pre-school brain thought the line had to struggle really hard to get in to that shape. I remember having a hard time learning to write the number 5 in kindergarten - it kept coming out kind of like a messed-up upper case J.

I’m also told a little friend and I referred to a stand of tall bushes where we liked to play as our “perky house” and some piece of playground equipment as a “gollney-gollney,” which would cause us to laugh uproariously.

I’ve always loved words, and it often seems as if I can feel very stirring instrumental music all the way into my cells.

FWIW

[Irish_Dem]

35. This is more common, sound/tactile reaction.

Hearing a sound and feeling a physical sensation.
Over half the population feels this.

Though in some cases, I think it can go into a synesthesia.

Sounds like your feeling "struggling" with the number 8 was more straightforward.
It looked a like a complex or difficult shape for a 4 yr old, hence the word struggle for it.

Problems with writing letters and numbers at that age is quite common.
Children will often reverse numbers or letters.
Just part of the learning process and the brain wiring changing.

[3catwoman3]

38. I retired 2 years ago after 45 years as a pediatric nurse practitioner.

Until he was at least 5, our younger son, Taylor, was quite ambidextrous. When he was learning to make the upper case T for his name, he did something I’ve never seen another kid do - he would make the left half of the top of the T with his left hand, and then switch to the right hand for the downstroke and the other side of the top of the T.

Freaked me out. I was sure he was going to have some intractable learning challenge. He was fine.

I’ve often wished there was a way to experience how we process thought when we are preverbal. I used to be fascinated while examining young babies, watching their eye movements and facial expressions as they regarded the world around them.

And if you’ve never heard sound, when you think to yourself, do you think in sign language or in the written word once you can read? When I have a discussion in my head, I hear the words, even if I’m not saying anything.

So many things to ponder.

[Irish_Dem]

39. Fairly common for young children to switch hands when learning to write.

Usually they establish a dominance preference around 6 yrs of age.
Interesting he would switch hands when writing one letter.

Right, nothing to be worried about.

Parents understandably get anxious about their offspring.
Many times when a parent brought a child in for evaluation with a concern or worry,
things were actually fine, I would say there is no problem, psychologists don't get excited
about this or that child behavior.

Of course sometimes there was a problem which needed to be addressed.

Yes preverbal experience is interesting. Mostly memory storage during that age
are feelings and sensations, images, etc. There are no words to put to the feelings
or events.

I never worked with the hearing impaired so I am not sure how they process language.
I would assume it is more visual and conceptual.

[3catwoman3]

40. I had just never seen anyone switch in the...

…middle of making a letter.

[Irish_Dem]

41. I know, that is pretty neat.

I would have enjoyed seeing your son do that.

(Obviously I didn't teach kids how to read and write, so I didn't know all the details of the process.
I was doing testing and assessment for IQ, learning disabilities, mental illness, that kind of thing.)

This could have just been typical switching hands when learning to write.
Or maybe somewhat of a personality trait.
Perhaps a careful child, or perfectionist.
Or someone who liked feeling the pencil in his hands, maybe more tactile.

I would have asked him why he did that.

That is the fun and challenge of doing pediatric psych evals, assessing what is going on
with the child.

[3catwoman3]

42. One of my favorite memories of kid #2 is a time when I broke one of...

…the cardinal rules of admiring your child’s art. He was about 2 1/2, and brought home from daycare/preschool the kind of painting where you paint one half of a page a paper and fold it over to make a mirror image.

It ws a big red blob with a thin green stem poking up out of the middle. Sorta looked like an apple. Instead of saying, as I should have, “Tell me about your picture,” I blundered in with, “What’s that a picture of?”

To this day, I cherish his perfect, concrete 2 1/2 year old answer - “It’s a picture of paint.”

Somewhere, I still have that “picture of paint.” Too cherished to toss away.

[Irish_Dem]

43. Your question was perfect, because you got a priceless answer.

[3catwoman3]

44. I have thoroughly enjoyed our exchange this evening.

Thank you for all you responses.

I’ll bet we’d have many stories to share.

[Irish_Dem]

47. Same here, very enjoyable. Thank you!

I worked in the mental health field for over 40 years and I miss it.

Yes I am sure you have stories that would be fascinating.

[3catwoman3]

45. Oops - see my other post.

Thanks for the chat.

[Irish_Dem]

48. Yes thank you!

[3catwoman3]

46. 3 strikes and I'm out. I'm so tired I can hardly see straight. I had an...

…appendectomy a week ago, and recovery has had a few bumps in the road.

Our conversation today has been a bright spot.

[Irish_Dem]

49. Oh no, sorry to hear about your surgery and some problems in recovery.

I am glad you enjoyed our chat, maybe kicked up some endorphins for you and will help with healing.
Go get a good night's sleep!