Thought Experiment Time: What if Rome never fell?

[Taverner]

What if history happened as it did, but instead Roman Brittania set up Roman colonies in America, Christianity was just another small messianic cult that died, and the dominant religion was the Pagan Roman one?

Democracy exists, but is ordered more like the Roman Republic than the Iroquois Federation our government really came from...

Because there was no dark ages, Western Science was able to make more progress and things like flying cars, etc are around today.

[CJCRANE]

1. The United States of Britannica...

Gods Save the Emperor!

[Taverner]

2. I'd live here:

[Chan790]

3. Roman Paganism was dying anyways.

Christianity filled a void in an increasingly cosmopolitan agnostic society...it's likely that if Christianity had not filled this void in the 4^th century CE that Islam would have filled it by the 6^th century CE with the primary oppositional faith being the Druidic naturalism of the Celts and Picts and a larger agnostic bloc. The Romans in Brittania never really snuffed out the native faith, that was Saint Patrick in the 7^th century CE.

Everything else falls in from there.

[Taverner]

6. Ah but Islam only spread because of Christianity

If there was no Christianity, Manicheanism or another popular cult might have taken its place

[Chan790]

9. It really is amazing to realize exactly how all this is interelated.

Change one small detail, the spread of Christianity, and everything becomes a lot less solid. Change two by assuming that Rome is never sacked and we're in a whole new world.

[Taverner]

10. I was thinking too, if Christianity was a small cult

There might be this new prophet in the American Roman Empire named Maximus Josephus Lupus who was spreading Christianity in Navoo, Provincus Illinois and eventually had to flee to Provincus Utah

Although maybe he wouldn't have to flee - - one of the hallmarks of Roman culture was tolerance (at least in the Pre-Christian days) of other faiths

[hunter]

4. Everything would be radioactive.

And the skies would just be clearing from a long cold nuclear winter.

The few human survivors would superstitiously avoid Roman Republic artifacts, especially metals, rightfully fearing they might be deadly remnants of nuclear weaponry or power reactors.

Sigh.

No matter how much I play with human history, things usually turn out much worse. I do fear sometimes we live in the best of all possible worlds.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_on_the_Edge_of_Forever

[Taverner]

11. If we survived the potential MAD from the Cuban Missile Crisis in this world

Chances are MAD wouldn't have worked there either

[jakeXT]

5. No need to reinvent the bikini

[Bunnahabhain]

7. If Rome never fell

an entire genre of Hollywood movies about Roman times would never have happened. This would be a tragedy.

[Xyzse]

8. What is known as the Dark Ages, I don't think was really dark

It was just a period of intense commercial activity.

http://listverse.com/2008/06/09/top-10-reasons-the-dark-ages-were-not-dark/

If Rome did not fall, we would probably still have gladiatorial combat rather than football.
Slavery would still exist.

It would still probably be the same as now. Actually no, I think it may be even worse.

Rome as a society had a very fixed method of thinking. To advance, such things has to topple so that new ideas and systems can be considered.

They did provide some sort of stability, but it would probably be inching along more than anything else.
With their method of appeasement of the masses, they kept their vast majority dumb and illiterate to maintain their power.

At some point, consider an empire a monopoly, which at the beginning advances civilization till it stagnates. If Rome continued, they would be trying to hold on to power for too long and advances would have been stifled.

[Taverner]

12. That's assuming Roman Culture never changed

And it did, frequently throughout the Kingdom, the Republic and the Empire

Perhaps Spartacus' rebellion might have worked, and slavery ends before 1000 CE

[Xyzse]

15. You may be right.

However, if Spartacus' rebellion worked, then that wouldn't be the Roman empire any more. Much of it would change, the infrastructures and culture would change. So it wouldn't be that any more.

It could even be called the "New Thracian Empire".

Who is saying that what we have now is not a natural progression as to what the Roman empire would have been?

Was just thinking that if the Roman empire were to have continued, we would still have the same families in power, and they would want to keep their power by any means necessary. It is when they get deposed, that seems to be generally when things move in leaps and bounds.

[Taverner]

16. OK imagine this...

Sparticus' slave rebellion works, but the Roman Empire brings him in rather than fight him.

Rome agrees to make slaves only work for 2 years, and after that they are freed men.

Many slaves work hard and build the commerce of Rome

Eventually after many of them become Senators, slavery is abolished.

Spartacus is seen as both Lincoln and Fredrick Douglas.

When Rome discovers the 'new world' slavery is never introduced.

The emerging kingdoms of Nubia and Zimbabwe (look it up) are world contenders

The 'new world' is able to adjust to the influx of disease before Rome reaches them

So when Rome meets with the 'Native Americans' it is as an equal

[Xyzse]

18. It would be nice to have a more optimistic point of view.

I can imagine that, but chances are far slimmer on that one.

It took another few hundred years after Spartacus died before Rome falls.
During that time, I don't believe they have progressed much from their golden years.

What I meant by my posts were that during the start of an Empire, that is when progress and rapid growth tends to happen. An Empire provides stability which then facilitates the improvement of man. As an empire matures, it ends up mostly trying to protect themselves, where the "1%" controls the industry and will repress change. They will couch it in the terms of following what the forefathers ideals and how things used to be.

They will continue that for as long as they can, stifling anything new or what could replace what they currently have even if it is far less efficient and damaging. Pretty much why, if I imagine the Roman empire surviving, they would have went after anything that could threaten their rule, be it new technology or anything else.

Which is why I had to mention, that during the Dark Ages, it wasn't really dark, since laws changed, math improved, and many other things happened which coalesced in to the Renaissance.
---------------------
But...

If I were to imagine a more optimistic point of view, taking away my cynicism on the ability of the "1% and existing industry" of any age to stifle progress and be like ticks sucking the lifeblood of humanity.

This is a big if, since it involves allowing the Roman Empire to go through different incarnations, and keeping the Emperor something of a constitutional role rather than a monarchy, to keep a democracy.

Their taxation system should also have change since it is so geared towards allowing the rich to accrue more wealth. That is unsustainable.

--I am sorry but, other than architecture change, I doubt a Roman society would be any better than what we currently have. Your premise sounds great, but I unfortunately have to account for greed of wealth and power. If people were less greedy, heck we'd have more people like Tesla than Edison, and our technology would be AWESOME. The problem really are the greedy bastards that would demonize other point of views, even if they are wrong, just to get more money.

I really think Empires need to fall for progress to happen. What I mean by empires however, does not always mean nations, but the extreme rich and corporations that destroy their competition and siphon off resources merely for the sake of gaining more or maintaining wealth.

[CJCRANE]

13. Why do you hate Romanica?

What if Imperial Romanica instituted Stoicism (as espoused by Marcus Aurelius) as the official state philosophy?

For an ancient philosophy it came pretty close to concepts of humanism and natural law not seen until the Enlightenment.

[dixiegrrrrl]

21. " they kept their vast majority dumb and illiterate to maintain their power."

THAT has not changed.

In fact, hoodwinking the general populace as a means of being/staying in power seems to be a universal habit.

[Xyzse]

23. Yep!

That's why I can't really see things vastly improving till something new happens that topples an empire or monopoly.

[valerief]

25. Magic thinking needs to be toppled--religion. That's not gonna

happen any time soon.

[AustinActivist435]

14. present day utopia

If the Roman Empire survived the present times would be a utopia!

[csziggy]

17. There was a Star Trek episode based on that premise

"Bread and Circuses"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_Circuses_%28Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series%29

[NewJeffCT]

19. When do the changes start?

what event(s) changing in history meant that Rome didn't fall? Maybe the Romans decisively win the Battle of Adrianople? Was it just the barbarians sacking of Rome being defeated in the 5th century AD? Was the empire never split before that? What about the eastern Roman Empire centered on Constantinople that lasted for almost another 1,000 years until it fell in 1453?

Or, does Rome continue to expand from its height, conquering the British Isles, Scandinavia and Eastern Europe? Maybe even moving into Russia, Persia and India beyond?

[a la izquierda]

20. Oh, this is hard.

I'm a historian. Historians hate "what ifs."

I don't think society would be a utopia because Rome was more violent than many would like to admit. Rome had slavery. It wasn't race based and it was easier to escape one's enslavement than it was, say, the more modern version of enslavement than what came later. Rome's attitudes towards sex were more enlightened. Their attitudes towards fun and leisure were more relaxed too I think.

But violence was part and parcel of daily life, as was war and conquest. So I don't think much would be different.

[Orrex]

22. The Empire Never Ended

Just ask Philip K. Dick.

[valerief]

24. It played out the only way it could. Besides, the ruling class would always have some

way to oppress the masses, via religion or some other brainwashing.