Anybody take "woo" products anyway

[Aerows]

I know most "woo" products don't help and probably are the placebo effect, but I'm taking some thing that my Dad ordered for joints (He ended up not being able to benefit from them because his is gout). It has vitamin C and other benign things in it.

It is probably the placebo affect or just getting a vitamin I was low on, but it's odd, isn't it? I was in a bad car accident 19 years ago and my shoulder can twinge then go into full blown agony for DAYS. It hasn't since - it started twinging and I took this weird woo crap, and it worked. I don't know if it is that I suddenly realized when I felt the twinge that I needed to take it easy on that shoulder, or if it did anything.

Anyway, it could be exercise, too. I've had my shoulder get so bad that the only thing that works is a cortisone shot. It laughs at pain medication - serious anti-inflammatory shot is the only thing that relieves it reliably.

I'm the most anti-woo person out there, and yet, I take some wonder joint pills.

I'm not advocating them or naming them, just pointing out that a person like myself, seemingly rational, takes a strange herbal/vitamin pill to keep me from wanting to cut off my arm due to pain - and it could be placebo, or just the vitamins.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. My dear Aerows...

We don't always understand why things work, or how...So we experiment and sometimes we get good results.

The mind-body connection is not well understood.

So if it works, hell, go ahead and take it.

I used to take glucosamine and if I had to be without it, I felt less well. Recently, I was without it, and I realized I didn't feel any different than when I had been taking it. So, when I finished the bottle, I didn't buy any more. I have not felt the lack.

And who knows why? I sure don't. And I have friends who swear by it.

[Aerows]

3. I guess it's one of those things

that it either works for you or it doesn't.

There are so many things we do not know about the body, and the mind.

[fizzgig]

2. i take vitamin c and garlic oil capsules in the winter

mom gave it to us as kids and i've continued it into adulthood. i get seriously sick once every couple, three years but i don't even get colds otherwise. can't say if the supplements have anything to do it, but i'm going to keep doing it.

[2theleft]

4. One of my dogs was starting to get mean to my other dog..

Off to the vet for blood work. Vet recommended I change her food, and I did some reading on the web. Saw some stuff about aromatherapy, so have been defusing "relax" essential oils. So, her food changed, I added oils, nothing else done. No more issues. I'm scared to stop the oils. I KNOW it's probably the food, but I'm scared to stop the oils. And, they make my house smell nice, so that's a plus.

[In_The_Wind]

5. I do woo until I feel better then I stop.

[Callmecrazy]

6. Ahh, dammit!

I'm cat-sitting for my sister and one of them just knocked over my laptop trying to catch your butterfly avatar.
No damage to the laptop, but when I catch that cat he's goin' for a spin in the dryer.

(I'm kidding, of course. It felt better just saying it.) Friggin' hairball.

[In_The_Wind]

7. Oh, Callmecrazy

[mnhtnbb]

8. Sometimes woo turns out to be

real.

I refuse to take statins so my primary doc asked me if I'd take fish oil pills to see
if it would lower my cholesterol. Ok. why not? Three months later--without
any other change in diet, exercise or weight--my total cholesterol was DOWN 70 points.

We'll see where the numbers are when I go in for my annual physical in September.
Still taking the pills. But, then, I'm not a believer in being worried about cholesterol
anyway.

[Silent3]

10. "Woo" does not equal "natural", though there is sometimes a lot of overlap.

Derisively dismissing "woo" is not the same thing as saying that there are absolutely no worthy or functional natural treatments with evidence of efficacy out there.

[Aerows]

27. The reason why I made this post is

that many equate the two.

[Silent3]

32. While I'm sure a few anti-woo people fling the term "woo" about too freely...

...my general impression is that it's the woo aficionados who simply don't get what others find objectionable about "woo", not understanding that evidenced-based medicine can and does support some "natural" medicines, and simply assume that anyone who calls anything "woo" must be a shill for Big Pharma, or they must be so coldly clinical that they hate all that is natural.

[Aerows]

38. I can't argue with that.

I can only tell you what I experience. I realize that anecdotes don't equate with data.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

9. I take Fish Oil and Glucosamine/Condroitin

I've seen benefits from both.

I take the Prostate/Virility formula of GNC Mega Men's vitamins (like a Centrum -- but with more B complex). I'm not sure my plumbing is any better off, but I feel more energetic.

[PasadenaTrudy]

11. Nope! n/t

[CanSocDem]

12. What's a "placebo..."?

If it has a brand name with a fancy label and a massive advertising campaign, does that somehow make, what is essentially a personal evaluation of the problem, a successful treatment.??? I underline that because after all the hype, "your personal evaluation of the problem" is really what matters.

What if they were all "placebo"???


.

[riderinthestorm]

13. I've seen too many animals get relief from "woo" products.

They can't manufacture a placebo effect so I can only surmise its providing relief.

I've gotten a lot of flak about that from DUers but if it works, it works.

I can't explain it.

My philosophy? If it's giving you the pain relief you need then GO FOR IT!!!

I'm so glad you found something.... In my experience you can only get so many cortisone shots in a given year so finding something that works in the interim will give you a much better life.

[Aerows]

28. I don't have to get them too often

maybe once a year, but when I have to get one? It's the only thing under the sun that works. I feel like I've been blessed that I haven't had one now in 18 months. There is NOTHING that works - no Ibuprofen, and god forbid a narcotic that just puts you in a bad mood on top of still being in pain - except a cortisone shot.

That's been my experience.

I've been doing this now, though for several months, combined with exercises and these vitamin/supplements. I got a twinge which I was just certain was going to lead to pain, and ... it ended up just being a twinge. You cannot imagine how thankful I was.

[RebelOne]

55. I gave my 12-year-old Rottweiler Glucosamine for her arthritis.

She was taking prescription medicine which made her sick. It helped for a while until I had to discontinue it. I then gave her Glucosamine and it helped immensely.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. To some people vitamins are woo. So yeah, I take some vitamins and

I visit a chiropractor about four times a year.

Anecdotal evidence: I feel fine when my spine is in line

[Archae]

15. If it helps, ok...

To a point.

My cousin's husband "felt better" after taking (something) other than insulin for his diabetes.

He's now completely blind, and lost both legs.

The snake oil con artists count on people "feeling better," mostly due to the placebo effect.

[Aerows]

17. This isn't life threatening

It's shoulder pain. I would never advocate anyone do anything "woo" for a serious medical problem.

This is just a leftover injury that flares up occasionally, and my doctor is very aware of it. I didn't ask him about the "woo" because it wasn't really warranted - I researched it and there is nothing odd in there, and I take no medication except an occasional Tums or Ibuprofen. And even that is very occasional.

Should I alert my doctor that I'm taking a Tums because I ate some chili?

[Cleita]

16. Before we had big Pharma we had nature's remedies.

I'm old enough to remember when much of our therapies came out of the kitchen cabinet. During WWII most drugs went to the front creating a shortage here making doctors rely on home remedies, the majority of which were herbal or plant based. I got an infection and blood poisoning from a cut. There was no penicillin immediately available so my Appalachian hillbilly grandma made a poultice of moldy bread and wrapped my wound in it every day until the infection went away. The doctor could only offer sulfur pills. The moldy bread offered a crude sort of penicillin.

There are Vermont farmers that swear drinking cider malt vinegar cures their arthritis. This might help you. I would research first though at the library or on line. I've never tried it or known anybody who has.

[Aerows]

19. That's not the first time I've heard that cider vinegar

helps with joint pain. In fact, my Dad's doctor mentioned that he's seen studies where it helped. I'm ahead of the game on that one, though, because I like salad and I eat it with a generous dousing of vinegar.

That's a country doctor saying that, but he's an MD, so I'm pretty sure he's not pushing "woo".

According to him, though it helps with gout, which isn't my issue. Mine is just an arthritis flare up (and I'm too young for that!) localized in my shoulder where I was injured.

[Aerows]

29. I got some cider vinegar today at the store

Just for good measure. Put it on a salad with a little yellow mustard shaken up with garlic? Mmm Mmm. That was delicious dressing

[Cleita]

30. Sounds good. Enjoy!

On edit: I just remembered that mustard used to be put on a cloth and applied to sore joints, hence the phrase "a mustard plaster".

[Iggo]

18. No.

[840high]

20. I do.

[rurallib]

21. yep

and I can tell when I miss a day.

I was only about 45 when the doc said I would probably be in a wheel chair by the time I was 50 because of arthritis.
G&C was just coming out then and I tried it. Most of the pain was gone in a week and I could walk like a human again.

[Aerows]

25. I honestly don't think joint pain is well understood

There are so many causes - illness, injury, sedentary lifestyle and yes, probably poor nutrition.

Everybody is so quick to say arthritis this, arthritis that without trying to figure out how to minimize it rather than just "live with it, take narcotics, and surgery."

I know exactly why my shoulder hurts periodically when the weather changes - I was in a car accident. When I take vitamins and do exercises? Oh wait, those episodes don't happen as frequently. When I take these joint blends of vitamins and continue to do exercises, a twinge doesn't blow into a full blown shoulder train-wreck that makes me have to go get a cortisone shot (which I only need about once every 12 months, anyway).

It's woo-ish, but I think some of the things we do as far as medicine is concerned with joint pain is just as woo-ish.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

22. I've had good luck with acupuncture.

Whether it was because of a placebo effect or because there was some real physical healing, I don't know; but whatever it was, it "fixed" my bad knee.

[Quantess]

23. Since when did vitamin supplements become woo?

Calcium pills are a must. They prevent menstrual carmps. Vitamin c is equally indispensable. I refuse to go without them!

[Aerows]

26. You'll have people on here

insisting that taking vitamins and doing certain physical therapy exercises are "woo" the second it is mentioned that additionally taking herbal supplements - that everybody under the sun recommends when you have a specific joint problem - that's "woo".

Nobody said they work for every case 100% of the time, but then surgery and a bunch of drugs don't work for things 100% of the time, either. Common sense needs to be applied.

My vet recommended a "woo" supplement for my cat when he got arthritis, and it helped him.

[Quantess]

31. Women who get menstrual cramps:

2 words: calcium supplement

Take calcium regularly (every day if you can) and take extra calcium a few days before your period and during the first couple of days.

It completely cures the backache and cramps. For me, if I do all of the above and still have cramping, I take even more calcium until it goes away.

That's not "woo" that's pain relief. I'll probably also have stronger bones when I'm a senior citizen.

[Aerows]

36. Good God

I get menstrual cramps from hell, but I started eating a lot of cottage cheese (which I love) and they haven't been NEARLY as bad. I'm a tad underweight, too, so taking calcium supplements probably wouldn't be a bad idea for me. Thanks for the tip.

[Quantess]

46. You have to try it!

[Skittles]

63. hey Aerows

could you tell me about that feline arthritis supplement

[Aerows]

64. You've got PM

For others that are interested, look up "Chondroprotective Agents for" Canines or Felines, respectively. There is a ton of info on them and many formulas specifically for our dog and cat friends.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

24. All of my mother's doctors insist she take "woo" products

That includes a licensed cardiologist and doctor of internal medicine. She's 94 and her blood work shows she's chronically deficient in a number of things that decrease with age like iron, magnesium, calcium, co-q 10, vitamin D, vitamin B-12, and several others. We're not just a sack of bones and blood. Our bodies need minimal quantities of certain substances just to live. Vitamin C is required by the body for the synthesis of collagen and a deficiency can lead to scurvy. Vitamin B-1 is necessary for the proper functioning of the central nervous system and a deficiency can lead to beri-beri.

[LeftyMom]

37. Nobody's arguing against taking supplements on the advice of a doctor for a real deficiency.

The argument is about routine supplementation in healthy people with no deficiencies, which probably has no benefit.

[Aerows]

40. What is a "real deficiency" though?

That's where the interesting science comes in. What is an excess or a deficiency in one person is ...

Holistic approaches to health are exactly designed to be tailored to the health of a person.

I don't know everything. That doesn't mean I don't know anything.

[LeftyMom]

41. What a real doctor who stays abreast of the science diagnoses after valid testing?

There are a lot of dubious vitamin tests and shady labs, so I'd be very suspicious of tests run by alt med practitioners.

[Aerows]

42. I'm not arguing with you

but taking vitamins every day seems to be a better path to health than not taking vitamins every day.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

60. And there are a lot of doctors who refuse to consider anything that isn't sanctioned by big pharma

I don't consider the latter any more "real" as doctors than some who are both licensed practitioners in their area of expertise but supplement their practice with naturopathic methods. Look at the procedure of EECP. My mother's cardiologist provides it. I's non-invasive and it has proven results that benefit the heart and it's approved by the FDA and Medicare pays for it. Yet, some doctors (like my mother's primary care doctor, a doctor of internal medicine) thinks it's quackery. He thinks only heart surgery, stents, a by-pass and the like are legit. Part of it has to do with the fact doctors can bill, bill, bill for certain procedures and drug companies can get rich selling patentable drugs. It's also one reason why there isn't more study made of natural supplements in this country because they can't be patented, unlike in Europe or Asia where there is more testing.

[Sanity Claws]

33. Let's maximize the placebo effect

What's wrong with a placebo that works?

I know, I know. People are going to say that you're really paying for nothing. But it's not nothing. It either kickstarted the self-healing mechanism or actually did the healing.

[RebelOne]

34. I used to have bad leg cramps at night,

and someone suggested Vitamin E. I started to take it and no more nighttime leg cramps.

[moriah]

35. I worked in a health food store, there's "woo" and there's "REALLY woo".

REALLY woo is homeopathy, reiki, etc.

Standard woo is buying pills because they say "Joint Pain Relief" on them, vs having any idea how chondriton, glucosamine, and/or MSM actually work.

Borderline naturopathy is going by the German Commission E Monographs and choosing individual formulations or cocktails that have proven uses, or making things from old pharmacopoeias.

----

FWIW, when we were iced in for three weeks in the mountains (doctor already 45 minutes away in normal conditions, the roads were impassable) and lost heat, I caught what my doctor later said from my chest x-ray had to have been pneumonia (it was mostly cured by the time I got there, though I went ahead and did a course of real antibiotics). We had no antibiotics on the mountain, but we did have two homemade herbal preparations.

The first was usnea lichen that had been wildcrafted (picked off the trees it grows on), tinctured in alcohol, and aged a year. Usnea is a potent antibiotic against staph and strep. I stayed pretty drunk for awhile, because they were waking me up to give me a shot of this moss/fire water combo every two hours. The second was more dangerous -- lobelia seed tinctured in apple cider vinegar. Too much can cause heart arrythmias or intense vomiting. They would wake me up when I was really fevered by wetting a fingertip with the vinegar and putting a drop or two on my lips. I would lick it, and it caused an expectorant reaction. I coughed up a ton of mucous, made more liquid by the action of the lobelia on the mucous secretion glands. Then they'd give me the shot of alcoholic antibiotics, and I'd go back to bed.

Not that I'd recommend using naturopathy to treat something as serious as pneumonia if you had ANY other options.

[Quantess]

47. Interesting. Wow, what an experience!

Glad you survived.

[Recursion]

39. Half of the pharmacies here are ayurvedic

I look at it as like the Babylonians: they knew to give people with night blindness liver, because they kept doing it and it kept working. Their attempted explanation left a lot to be desired, but until you figure out "why", sometimes "what" can be good enough.

While I'm thinking of that, I'm reminded of the chief medical researcher at the biomed lab I used to work at; she refused to use the phrase "placebo effect" and insisted on "placebo response". Thinking about it that way does sort of change how you look at it.

[Aerows]

43. I think it is helping

because I was deficient of a particular vitamin, and my old injury flared up due to that. I can't prove it, but it certainly feels better than it did and I didn't have to go and get a cortisone shot. I may still have to do so, but I like putting them off until absolutely necessary. I'm doing exercises to help build the muscle around it so it doesn't hurt or get damaged as often.

[NRaleighLiberal]

44. Yes - I take some herbs for my joints.

Heard about it on the People's Pharmacy (NPR show) years ago - and did some research. Boswellia and Turmeric, both ayurvedic medicines used for centuries for inflammation. I've got two torn ACLs, the doc looks at my XRays and wonders how I can even walk - he wanted to put me on Vioxx. Been on the herbs for a decade - pretty much pain free - avid dog walker, gardener (as you know) -

Maybe it is the placebo effect, maybe not - but it works for me.

What bothers me most about herbals is that there is really no guarantee that what is stated on the label is in the pill - regulations for active ingredients is not at all stringent.

[Aerows]

45. Thanks so much for the input!

It certainly has helped me in a big way.

By the way - damn you - I have so many sungold cherry tomatoes that I am having to invent recipes to use them all! . I'm going to fry up a batch tomorrow like green tomatoes, but as snacks with a creamy dipping sauce.

Your little tomatoes are producers from hell!

[raven mad]

48. Let me give you an idea about "woo" -

I had a bad, bad toothache on a camping trip; no aspirin or anything along. So I chewed some aspen bark.

Tasted like shit but it worked.

[Aerows]

49. That's actually not surprising

Willow bark contains salicylic acid - basically a crude aspirin.

And I'm betting it was Willow, not Aspen, because it tastes like shit

[raven mad]

52. It was willow - sorry, was brain dead when I posted!

It is really horrible tasting; thank heaven I had some strong coffee! It worked!

[GoCubsGo]

56. They're both in the same family.

Salicaceae. It wouldn't surprise me if aspen bark also contains some salicylic acid.

[Aerows]

62. It does - you are right

but it would take a quantity a lot larger than willow bark for the analgesic effect. Aspen contains quinine, though, which is useful for fighting malaria.

The "it tasted like shit" comment was what helped me identify it as willow LOL, because it has a distinctly awful taste.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

61. Quite a few modern drugs are based on natural products

Morphine derived from the opium poppy. There's Penicillin. And the most widely used drugs for heart disease and blood pressure (ACE inhibitors) were originally derived from certain snake venoms used by Amazonian indians. And the lower incidence of heart disease in the Mediterranean region where people drink wine (containing resveratrol) and consume extra virgin olive oil (that contains beneficial hdl - high density lipoprotein instead of harmful low density) has been extensively studied. Resveratrol is good stuff.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/resveratrol-does-provide-anti-aging-benefits-study-shows/

[MrMickeysMom]

50. If you listen to the Malloy show, you'd have heard of what I'm currently trying

"NovaJoint", which is a supplement to help reduce joint inflammation. I always kid in the Malloy show chat room that "I can't keep it lit", but to be truthful it's helped me in one very troublesome area, which is toe joint pain.

I have a degenerative process going on in my spine. I'm at that stage in life where I wished I had done more yoga, and not stopped lifting free weights for my posture, so I realize the NovaJoint will not tend to make a difference in areas where I've developed spurs (spine) however, this thing with my toe is SO MUCH BETTER.

I should do a testimonial for them.

I think the term, "woo" is sort of mis-labeled. Actually, the placebo effect could be "woo", but it actually makes measurable difference in making people feel better.

[Autumn]

51. My therapist has been doing dry needling on me. I think I would rather have acupuncture

though. I think it worked better and the relief lasted longer.

[woo me with science]

53. I enjoyed this thread.

[progressoid]

65. he he he

[kentauros]

54. Yes, I do use alternative FORMS of medicine.

My favorite book on herbology is "The New Holistic Herbal" by David Hoffmann (3rd edition, 1990.) I picked up a newer version some years ago, but ended up giving it to a friend because they changed the layout so drastically that I could never find what I wanted!

I use that book and the site Earth Clinic for quick reference, sometimes supplementing with Botanical.com.

[BuddhaGirl]

58. Just checked out the Earth Clinic site - thanks!

n/t

[kentauros]

59. You're welcome :)

I think it's an excellent site, and try to share it with those I think will actually take a look.

And if you have your own remedies or experiences, you can share them there

[BuddhaGirl]

57. I take supplements daily

as well as herbs such as boswellia and turmeric for joint pain. It works - I went on vacation last year and forgot them and the pain flared up again.

I also use the homeopathic medicine Calms Forte for sleep and it really helps me get to sleep. YMMV

I don't pay any attention to the "woo" flingers - I know what works for me and that's all that matters