ok DU detectives, I have a task for you...

[Kali]

on January 21 1977 a plane crashed into a mountain nearby. you can see the plane from various hills and high spots on the ranch, it has been a "landmark" for a long time. the hikers in my family (NOT me, LOL) had it as a goal for some time and today one of them made it to the site.

googling the number gives a tiny bit of info - it was a Mooney M20F according to one of the few hits we got - https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=10446 and the wikipage - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooney_M20 not sure how accurate, the windows don't really seem to match but who knows?

anyway, can anybody find anything else on this crash or the two people that died? Larry and Ellen Jones, possibly of Houston Texas - and she was the pilot. there is some "memory" that she was a daughter and not a spouse but I have NO idea where that came from.

I managed to find two articles on a pay site that mentioned the crash (one of two that weekend in southern Arizona (cropped screen grab, hope that doesn't violate any terms of use) so that gave us names, but that is it. I can't find anything else about the people or the crash at all.





the mountain that was hit (way steeper and rockier than it looks) there is debris up near the first ledge but it doesn't show in the pic





some pix of the main part (fuselage?)

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Google NTSB LAX77FA024

That will get you to the NTSB accident report - in those days their reports were pretty sketchy but there's some basic info.

[Kali]

2. ...

"Your search - NTSB LAX77FA024 - did not match any documents."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Weird, that should have worked - but it looks like somebody posted it downthread.

[Kali]

16. got it, thanks

more detail than I had found earlier.

[csziggy]

3. AviationDB has a listing

http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/Aircraft/6/N6874V.shtm

Airplane was a Mooney, Model Name M20F

Registrant JONES LAWRENCE GARRY out of Houston TX

Aircraft has been Deregistered
Last Action Date 1977-05-02

[Kali]

5. that has something!

thanks!

[Kali]

8. got an ancestry.com list for them

http://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/lawrence-garry-jones_95430900

[csziggy]

12. Yes - I was just doing some more looking there

See my note below.

I couldn't find anything at Newspaper.com except the year before the crash they bought a lot and a half together.

[mnhtnbb]

4. Here's the NTSB report

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=55889&key=0


2 fatalities, not named (on p. 16 of the link below)

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/AccList.aspx?month=1&year=1977

[Kali]

7. thanks!

[Laffy Kat]

18. VFR pilot flying in IFR conditions.

Poor judgement an people died.

[mnhtnbb]

9. The NTSB report basically says the pilot--who was not instrument rated--got into

a weather situation that required flying by instruments and wasn't able to handle it.

My husband held a general aviation license for years. We used to occasionally fly with the kids when they were little.
When they got older, he would take them on what he called "great adventures" for up to a week in the summer.

One of their last trips the weather was crap to get out of Lincoln, NE (where we lived) on their way to the southwest.
In order to avoid postponing the trip he hired an instrument rated pilot to fly them to Kansas City which would clear
the weather and get them on their way. He did that because even though he held an instrument rating he hadn't flown
using instruments for some time and wasn't going to take the chance.

There are a lot of private planes that crash when pilots get themselves in that situation. If I recall, JFK, Jr. crashed in that
kind of situation. (I looked up JFK, Jr's crash report https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001212X19354&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=MA )

[Kali]

15. thanks for the explanation, I didn't get all of it when I was looking.

looking at some of this stuff it is surprising how many crashes there are! yikes. then again I just hurtled down the interstate at 75 in my tin can twice today and there are WAY more car crashes.

[csziggy]

10. From Ancestry

Born in Calgary, Alberta, Canada on 13 Apr 1932 to Edwin Douglas Jones and Marguerite Elizabeth Cody. Lawrence
Lawrence Garry Jones
Found 10 Records, 10 Photos and 20,022,389 Family Trees

Born in Calgary, Alberta, Canada on 13 Apr 1932 to Edwin Douglas Jones and Marguerite Elizabeth Cody. Lawrence Garry married Mary Ellen Beasley and had 3 children. He passed away on 21 Jan 1977 in TX, Plane Crash.

Some of the trees say that Mary Ellen was piloting the plane. They also list three children, all of whom are marked as "Private" which means they are still alive or haven't been marked as deceased.

[Kali]

14. I'm not a member and it kind of looks like the records aren't even for them

they were my parents age and so the kids may be my age - that is kind of strange, thinking about losing both parents at ~ 17. makes you wonder.

[mnhtnbb]

17. Strange that they have the location of death incorrect. Not TX, but AZ.

[csziggy]

20. If it's from Social Security records that is the last place of residence not where they died

Believe me, that has screwed up any number of records for me!

[mnhtnbb]

21. interesting.

[csziggy]

22. Here is what the SS records list

Name: Lawrence Jones
SSN: 523-50-3374
BORN: 13 Apr 1932
Last Benefit: 77001, Houston, Harris, Texas, United States of America
Died: Jan 1977
State (Year) SSN issued: Colorado (1956)

So technically not the last residence, but the last place where benefits were paid.

Another annoyance I have found is that if you find a record for the children Ancestry will put in the child's place of residence for the parents.

For instance for Lawrence Jones' wife, Mary Ann Beasley's Social Security application lists her parents' names, Calmita L Evans and Oscar O Beasley. If I automatically add them into her records their place of residence will be what she listed, not where they actually live. That has also happened for death records - the parents are listed as living where the child died. It can get very confusing when the parents died in Minnesota and the child died forty years later in Washington state (an actual example of what I ran into).

[Kali]

25. that makes more sense than what I had thought

the crash was in an area generally called Texas Canyon so I thought maybe that is where the TX notation came from.

then I just figured it must have been confused with where they had lived...I can see how confusing it is when looking for records if you don't know it is SS info. thanks for the explanation.

[csziggy]

26. It can be very confusing

But since I've been doing genealogy pretty much all my life I've learned you have to look at the sources and figure out what they are actually reporting.

For instance, my grandfather actually died in Atlanta, Georgia but SS says he was in Winter Haven, Florida. He lived outside of Winter Haven and that was the Post Office designation for where his mail was delivered. He had a heart attack in Jacksonville, Florida and the closest heart specialist in 1957 was in Atlanta so they flew him up there to try to save his life. Some of the obituaries got it right, at least one reports he died in Jacksonville but the SS death records list his last address as Winter Haven. Oh, his funeral service was in Bartow and he had lived in Eagle Lake. Depending on which source, he could be reported to have died in five different places!

[Kali]

24. I saw that too and wondered if maybe

it was because the general area of the crash is known as Texas Canyon (even though that sie is not part of the TC watershed, but that is a rant for another day) but csziggy's explanation makes way more sense.

[hibbing]

11. That's creepy

I find it odd that it is just left there.


Peace

[Kali]

13. it is rugged and remote

you could get it out with a helicopter maybe, but it would be expensive and then what?

otherwise I guess it could be packed out on mules or something after cutting it up (and that would require packing in the equipment) - then again not worth the scrap.

agree it is kind of strange/creepy but the practicalities of the situation dictate the actions I guess.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

19. I too am surprised it's still up there.

Must have been different back in the day.

The NTSB investigates all serious crashes -' especially with fatalities. That usually entails recovery and analysis of the components for clues - even in cases where the cause may be "known." Perhaps they deemed the on-site analysis sufficient. Do you know if the engine is present? It appears to be missing. Perhaps they hauled the engine and dashboard/instruments for analysis and left the rest.

I would have assumed they may go after the insurance for recovery costs. The state or county would have a vested interest to get their junk off state/county land.

There's even a show on Smithsonian Channel about real NTSB air crash investigations in Alaska and they seem to go through great lengths to recover small aircraft involved in crashes in remote areas. The state of Alaska tourism people are not too thrilled with the show. They claim it's about privacy of victims' families but they really don't like the high Alaskan accident rate publicized. It could make Joe Blow fisherman/hunter think twice about his charter flight up north.

[Kali]

23. they may have hauled the front end off, though the kid said there was more debris up high

on that cliff. one wing was about 100 yards away also uphill. I am not sure of the land ownership right there. the general area is a mixture of private, state, and federal (mostly BLM, but there may be forest over there too, not sure)

from the reports it looks like they were flying in the clouds and possibly rain and obviously just a bit low for the terrain around here. back then there was a beacon light on the next mountain in the direction they seemed to be flying but since they were about a mile or two to the northwest of the interstate they hit that unmarked peak. if they had been over the pavement or to the SE they would have been fine (until they got to the mountain behind my house)

[mnhtnbb]

27. From the NTSB report, the pilot did not have a lot of hours and no instrument rating

ran into weather--needed the instruments--was flying VFR and ran out of luck. Plus, it's possible
she wasn't allowing for the downdraft you get over mountains.

I remember flying one time in the early 70's down to Cabo from Santa Monica--before it became a scene--with my boyfriend (who later
became my first husband) and his roommate--the pilot--and his girlfriend. When we were going to land at Cabo
he couldn't find the airport. I literally spotted it from the back seat and he laughed it off due to having his map
folded wrong in his lap. Right.

On the way back, we landed at Calexico for fuel, and I almost called my father to ask him to drive to Mexico to pick
me up since my parents lived just north of San Diego. I couldn't bring myself to do it (I was just 21) and when the pilot took off,
we had to talk him into gaining more altitude than he had planned in order to get over the mountains as you are
crossing to the US. Well, thank goodness he listened to us because we hit a downdraft and from my back seat
I watched his altimeter drop 900 feet before he could respond. And he had wanted to plan 500 feet clearance to
get over the mountains.

We did all get back in one piece. I was telling the story not long afterwards to my tennis instructor--who was a Navy pilot in WW II--and he told
me "don't ever get back in a plane with that guy until he has 1,000 hours on his log book." Why? Because given the errors
he had made during our trip, it was dubious whether he'd ever get to 1,000 hours. And we never had to deal with weather on that trip.

[kryan011]

28. ok DU detectives Arizona Plane Crash 1970s

So I am new to this site (so sorry if this is weird or not in the correct place), and I'm not sure if anyone is still following this post, but I am Garry and Mary Ellen's granddaughter and am trying to find any information I can about their death. My mother and uncle have been to the site and gathered some belongings (probably in the late 90's to early 2000s). It's been confirmed from my mom that Mary Ellen was piloting the flight. I'm not really sure what I'm looking for here. I'm working on a writing project and decided to get into my family history. I can't find their obituaries anywhere online, but am waiting for my father to give me access to his Ancesty.com account. I am just curious if anyone out there has any other information than what is posted above. It's actually been really cool researching them and I was so stoked and amazed that people know about this and are talking about it online. I can't imagine being 17 and finding out that both of your parents died in a plane crash. I don't think I would have been as strong as my mother was. Thanks for reading and I appreciate the information you all have already provided.

[Kali]

29. Hello!

Welcome to DU! I'm the one who lives near where the crash happened. I do not have any other information for you but I would love to see whatever you come up with with your writing, so you can always contact me here or by private message on this site and I can give you my email. If you have a question for any of the other people that were responding in this thread you need to reply directly to them because it is so old that it will not be kicked back up where people can see it again. The only notification that anyone will see is by direct reply.

Having said that I will let at least csziggy know.