No more war

[no more war]

I am trying to determine if there is enough interest to start an anti war thread. I was born three years after WWii ended. I really wasn't old enough to form an opinion on the Korean war. Now that I'm older I think it was a monumental mistake. Did you you that in North Korea if you commit a "political" crime you are sentenced to a prison camp. What is a political crime is a very broad stroke. Also, believe it or not, and I can't make this shit up, your children and your grand children serve the same sentence. More later

[Agnosticsherbet]

1. They shall beat their swords into plowshares,

and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. [Isaiah 2:4]

That is a beautiful sentiment, but it is end of the word gobbledygook. I was born seven years after the end of WWII. My father was a veteran of WWII and Korea.

I am anti unnecessary war, which is to say I am not a pacifist but am opposed to the use of war for political, territorial gain, resources, or because some leader wants to get a one up on his daddy. I do think the use of the military to aid people who are seeking to throw off a real tyrant busy murdering his people is a legitimate use of power.

WWII was a necessary war that was brought to us. Some here will disagree. Korea was political, part of that post WWII period when the U.S. and Russia were fighting proxy wars and encouraging proxy wars to see had the who was boss. We interfered because had we not, the whole Korean Peninsula would be like North Korea is today; a tiny, starving nation, lead by a dynasty of isolationist zealots. If we are going to complain about South Korea's political laws, we should seriously consider North Korea's Laws.

Vietnam was similar to Korea, though it had a long history of war, having with China, the French, Japanese, and the U.S. Still, I oppose getting involved because it was never necessary to our national survival.

Panama was essentially a police action using the military. Norriega was indicted, so we went, we arrested him, we left. Would our nation have survived if we left that petty dictator in place? Yes, so it wasn't necessary in that way, but we could have hardly sent in U.S. Marshals and arrested him.

Because the perpetrators of 9/11 were terrorists and not nation states, I felt they should have been pursued as criminals rather than sending the military to kick ass and take names. We fought Iraq because we stupidly thought we could create a Jeffersonian Democracy that would make the middle east love us, and to gain control of their oil. Both of those goals were unmet. It was a stupid waste of time, resources, and a monumental waste of lives.

Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. Fighting there is stupid. We are not going to make them like us and they will pretty much go back to the way they were before we or the Russians, or the British were there. It was a war fought stupidly in its beginning a pointlessly as it winds down.

Libya, I supported it because the people asked us to help and we did not have to invade and occupy to do it. My view of the war is tainted by my sense that a great part of our reason to help them was because Europe benefited with Libya's oil. If we did the same with Syria, I would think better of the exercise, because the Syrian people are being treated the same way the Libyans were. The difference is that the Russians don't want us playing in their pumpkin patch, so it is a political standoff while Syria murders its citizens. It appears to me, that it will cause the death toll to go higher, but the government will change as demanded by the people. They have the right to change their government.

So clearly, I am not anti all war, and I do not buy the notion that at the end of times some deity will come and force us to play nice. I am anti-unnecessary war, and feel the military is a legitimate tool to aid others who are being abused by their government if they ask for help.

[merrily]

15. I wonder when we can look forward to that "into plowshares" bit.

It's almost enough to make you lose total confidence in Old Testament prophesies.

Then again, there was no expiration date on the prophesy.

[Agnosticsherbet]

16. End of times prophesies require a God ruled theocratic totalitarian state,

where people have no choice about peace or anything else. In such a state, there are no individual rights. God determines everything and independent thought or action violates universal law as dictated by God.

As an agnostic, I won't say it can happen, but the evidence of history tends to make it unlikely, a quantum probability at best.

Actually, thanks for posting. I wrote this a long time ago, and enjoyed rereading it. It needs editing, but I will refrain.

[merrily]

17. You're welcome, but I have no idea how that happened!

Guess I did not notice the date of the post. If I had, I would not have posted, especially an offhand comment like that.

Guess we should both let the thread sink again at this point?

[think]

2. Peace would be nice and it can still be prosperous too.

JMO

[zipplewrath]

3. How about "no more violence of choice."?

My frustration with the world politic these days is that violence is seen as a "solution" or "rationale response" to alot of situations. As the death of our ambassador illiterates, violence tends to produce more violence. The exceptions are rare, and frequently don't include the rational level of violence that could have been expected in a pre-Quadfie world. However, neither is this post/pre world of a potential democracy. It is what it is and much of what is going on is predictable in a society where offensive violence is seen as achieving a larger objective.

[november3rd]

4. Thanks.

We can't even imagine the wonderful blessings of peace. Jesus started a nonviolent revolution, not a "religion."

Pass it on: Love is greater than fear or knowledge.

[PRAparty]

5. the world would be better without war

I am a republican on this site. I am not here to troll nor spread my beliefs. I am here to learn from my peers who have a different view than I.

As a Republican people would assume that i am a pro war nut. however the people of both parties (the ones with sense) want to see an end to war. however, regrettably. war is in human nature. in order to remove war from the world, just being anti-war wont cut it in the end. the issues that cause people to resort to war must be fixed. Diplomacy is one of the best ways to prevent the slippery slope to war. Diplomacy, with all it's merit can fail however. for two states to not go to war with each other both sides need to try to avoid war, not just one. An example would be that all the appeasement in the world would not stop Hitler from starting WWII because it was already set into his mind, however the Soviet Union and the United States, which such bitter hatred for each other. did everything in their power to prevent a war because of the threat of nuclear war. my point being however, is that Americans being anti-war isnt enough. Anti-war needs to spread on a global level. I wish to see the day when the world experiences a true worldwide antiwar movement.

@no more war, i understand where you are coming from when you feel that america should not have been involved in the Korean war. in my college i am part of the group Liberty in North Korea (LiNK) which fund raises to help the refugees escape from North Korea. From my view, If american involvement prevented south Korea from being in the same condition as North Korea, as when America joined the war, South Korea was on the brink of defeat, i feel that the sacrifice of the brave men and women who gave thier lives to protect south Korea were not in vain. As being older and more experienced than I, I would like to here what you have to say on the matter as you probably know more than I.

If somebody agrees or disagrees with me please say something. I want to hear what other people want to say.

[uppityperson]

6. Why do you vote republican?

[pinto]

7. A question. What is the PRA party?

Thanks.

(ed for spell)

[bluesbassman]

8. You have a generally agreeable view on war, and I have a few republican friends who feel the same.

However, the republican party that you affiliate yourself with has many other planks in their platform that "ones with sense" cannot agree with.

I really believe if you are sincere in wanting to effect change, you'll spend your time trying to change the anti-social views af your fellow republicans.

[NRaleighLiberal]

9. interesting post. War is one thing...how and why we go to war is another.

what is your view on the Iraq war, how the lead up was handled, whether/if we should have gone in, etc?

And as others here have said, war is not a good party test, since as you allude to, on occasion war is inevitable. But fiscal and social issues are what troubles me most about the Republican party.

[ted08721]

11. Anti war thread is much needed

If war is the answer the wrong question was asked.

http://www.worldbeyondwar.org/

[12kbush]

12. 99 RED BALLOONS

Tthere will not be NO WAR. until there is no man on earth.

[beachsinger]

13. End all wars!!!

I have been protesting wars since the Viet Nam era (I am 59).

WARS MUST END!!!

Laura in Fleetwood, PA

[merrily]

14. Welcome. I, too, hope we can end them.

Actually, obviously we can end wars. Thing is, we've never really wanted to as the first priority.

And by "we," I mean humankind, not only the US.

[BVM]

20. A New Campaign Against War Lead By Rock 'N' Roll!

A new campaign has begun!!

Blurred Vision - No More War
[link:

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[timdiaz]

21. Off the topic

North Korea is a state with closed borders. It’s one of the most isolated republic ever. We can’t discuss its foreign policy without established facts. The unique way is to believe Korean sources or agree with popular belief.
I suppose that life in South Korea is subhuman. It’s a state of harsher penalty and violation of rights and freedoms. And I find North Korean loyalty to their political leaders possible to mass brain washing.

[LWolf]

22. Of course.

There has not been a war in my lifetime that I have supported.

I was born in 1960.

[LWolf]

23. No time better than right now,

considering Trump's remarks about his planned increase in military spending: "We're going to start winning again."

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/presidential/Trump-touts-hike-in-military-spending-Were-going-to-start-winning-again.html

That sounds like a lead up to more war to me.

[NotMyFuhrer]

24. Man's Aggression (and how to curb it)

Einstein said / warned us that . . .

The current state of Science and our capability in creating weapons of mass destruction CHANGES EVERYTHING . . . EXCEPT THE MIND OF MAN!!


Here is an excerpt of a recent 60 Minutes interview by Lesley Stahl with the last remaining person who was a Nuremberg Prosecutor (Benjamin Ferencz). He talks of his life-long effort TO END WAR!!!!!


Lesley Stahl: Did you meet a lot of people who perpetrated war crimes who would otherwise in your opinion have been just a normal, upstanding citizen?


"War makes murderers out of otherwise decent people. All wars, and all decent people."


Benjamin Ferencz: Of course, is my answer. These men would never have been murderers had it not been for the war. These were people who could quote Goethe, who loved Wagner, who were polite--


Lesley Stahl: What turns a man into a savage beast like that?


Benjamin Ferencz: He's not a savage. He's an intelligent, patriotic human being.


Lesley Stahl: He's a savage when he does the murder though.


Benjamin Ferencz: No. He's a patriotic human being acting in the interest of his country, in his mind.


Lesley Stahl: You don't think they turn into savages even for the act?


Benjamin Ferencz: Do you think the man who dropped the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima was a savage? Now I will tell you something very profound, which I have learned after many years. War makes murderers out of otherwise decent people. All wars, and all decent people.


So Ferencz has spent the rest of his life trying to deter war and war crimes by establishing an international court – like Nuremburg. He scored a victory when the *** international criminal court in The Hague *** was created in 1998. He delivered the closing argument in the court's first case.


"If they tell me they want war instead of peace, I don't say they're naive, I say they're stupid."


Lesley Stahl: Now, you've been at this for 50 years, if not more. We've had genocide since then.


Benjamin Ferencz: Yes.


Lesley Stahl: In Cambodia—


Benjamin Ferencz: Going on right this minute, yes.


Lesley Stahl: Going on right this minute in Sudan.


Benjamin Ferencz: Yes.


Lesley Stahl: We've had Rwanda, we've had Bosnia. You're not getting very far.


Benjamin Ferencz: Well, don't say that. People get discouraged. They should remember, from me, it takes courage not to be discouraged.


Lesley Stahl: Did anybody ever say that you're naive?


Benjamin Ferencz: Of course. Some people say I'm crazy.


Lesley Stahl: Are you naive here?


Benjamin Ferencz: Well, if it's naive to want peace instead of war, let 'em make sure they say I'm naive. Because I want peace instead of war. If they tell me they want war instead of peace, I don't say they're naive, I say they're stupid. Stupid to an incredible degree to send young people out to kill other young people they don't even know, who never did anybody any harm, never harmed them. That is the current system. I am naive? That's insane.


Ferencz is legendary in the world of international law, and he's still at it. He never stops pushing his message and he's donating his life savings to a Genocide Prevention Initiative at the Holocaust Museum. He says he's grateful for the life he's lived in this country, and it's his turn to give back.


*****************
*
* Lesley Stahl: You are such an idealist.
*
*
* Benjamin Ferencz: I don't think I'm an idealist. I'm a realist. And I see the progress. The progress has been
* remarkable. Look at the emancipation of woman in my lifetime. You're sitting here as a female. Look what's
* happened to the same-sex marriages. To tell somebody a man can become a woman, a woman can become
* a man, and a man can marry a man, they would have said, "You're crazy." But it's a reality today.
*
* So the world is changing. And you shouldn't -- you know-- be despairing because it's never happened before.
* Nothing new ever happened before.
*
******************







#

[LWolf]

25. I don't know about interest.

There is certainly a critical need for anti-war discussions across this nation.

Our nation that glorifies the military, glorifies violence, glorifies authoritarianism, equates the idea of heroism and courage with battle, and, while attacking local schools for not stopping bullies, aspires to be the biggest global bully on the planet...there can't be enough time and energy, enough voices, for ending war as a viable solution to human conflict.

Apparently, there wasn't enough interest, in the last several years. Perhaps that could change.

[DumpTrump20202020]

26. War is THE issue

Trillions of dollars spent killing innocent people, all based on lies... Murder is not a way of life. Besides the financial cost, factor in the moral factor.