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Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
Mon May 28, 2012, 12:51 AM May 2012

Under Socialism, you get to keep your stuff.

Since this keeps coming up in other places, I thought I would post this relevant bit from the Manifesto here:



In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.

We Communists have been reproached with the desire of abolishing the right of personally acquiring property as the fruit of a man’s own labour, which property is alleged to be the groundwork of all personal freedom, activity and independence.

Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property! Do you mean the property of petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that; the development of industry has to a great extent already destroyed it, and is still destroying it daily.

Or do you mean the modern bourgeois private property?



Unless you own a mine, railroad, corporate mega-farm, or other monopoly of "commanding heights" of public resources that would probably be better off nationalized in the commons, you get to keep your stuff. This nonsense about the shoemaker, baker and candlestick maker having their little bit of earth appropriated is nonsense that has been smeared around for 150 years. The people who spread that kind of propaganda are usually billionaires like Pere Koch. <---link to actual Koch smears of Communism.

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Under Socialism, you get to keep your stuff. (Original Post) Starry Messenger May 2012 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author Confusious May 2012 #1
??????????????????? JDPriestly May 2012 #2
Was there a question in there or did your cat get on the keyboard? Starry Messenger May 2012 #3
Having traveled to China long ago Mosaic May 2012 #4
This does keep coming up............. socialist_n_TN May 2012 #5
I hear it from students too, so it's getting taught this way on purpose. Starry Messenger May 2012 #6
And it is the way it is taught in civics classes. Odin2005 May 2012 #19
You get to keep your stuff and your religion. white_wolf May 2012 #7
My answer is that the early Bolshevik Party........ socialist_n_TN May 2012 #11
I agree, but it seems many leftists don't. white_wolf May 2012 #12
I think some folks on RevLeft just went through Marx with a hilighter pen Starry Messenger May 2012 #14
When I was still a Catholic, there social-justice teachings was what drew me to them. white_wolf May 2012 #15
During the October Revolution.......... socialist_n_TN May 2012 #16
I know a bunch of those kind of "Marxists" on campus, here. Odin2005 May 2012 #20
Awesome. limpyhobbler May 2012 #8
Good thread. I suspect that when people think "property" they are thinking about homes and small jwirr May 2012 #9
Thank you jwirr! Starry Messenger May 2012 #10
Even the family farms in states like Iowa are huge and run like factory farms. Here in Minnesota jwirr May 2012 #13
My boss's in-laws own an organic farm up in the McIntosh area. Odin2005 May 2012 #21
There is a huge distinction between personal property and private property in Marxism Taverner May 2012 #17
I get sick of correcting the "socialists want to take away my stuff" thing. Odin2005 May 2012 #18
expropriate the nation's candlestick makers BOG PERSON May 2012 #22
I take a tallow view of such shenanigans. nt Starry Messenger May 2012 #23
LOL! What a "flame" Starry........ socialist_n_TN May 2012 #24
:D Starry Messenger May 2012 #25

Response to Starry Messenger (Original post)

Mosaic

(1,451 posts)
4. Having traveled to China long ago
Mon May 28, 2012, 10:04 AM
May 2012

This is common knowledge to me. The ignorant who fall prey to red baiters need to know this. Thanks for posting!

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
5. This does keep coming up.............
Mon May 28, 2012, 10:26 AM
May 2012

I suppose because it's an effective piece of lying propaganda. It keeps the small shopkeeper and owner/operator scared of a system that would ultimately benefit him/her. The key phrase IMO is the one about businesses that PRECEDED the capitalist system.

The group I belong to is as fundamentally Bolshevik as you can get and we don't advocate nationalizing or expropriating the small business or the contractor. Even if you left out the theoretical, it's just not practical. Why would a economy involving trillions of dollars want to worry about an owner/operator grossing or even netting $20k ayear? That' just not practical.

Thanks again for pointing this out Starry. I guess we'll have to say it over and over again.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
6. I hear it from students too, so it's getting taught this way on purpose.
Mon May 28, 2012, 01:08 PM
May 2012

I had one kid pinch the sleeve of his shirt and say "In socialism, I would have to give you this shirt". Um, no. You get to keep your shirt.

It is so easy to debunk, but it is still an effective piece of brainwashing!

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
19. And it is the way it is taught in civics classes.
Mon May 28, 2012, 10:44 PM
May 2012

Kids are told that Communism is about the abolition of property, and since the common usage of the term "property" also includes personal possessions kids get an incorrect impression of what Communism is, which is what the Capitalist Class wants.

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
7. You get to keep your stuff and your religion.
Mon May 28, 2012, 01:43 PM
May 2012

That is what we need to make clear to everyone. Socialists aren't going to take your computer or your Bible. I think these are two biggest misconceptions about socialism and the two biggest obstacles we have to overcome. However, some socialists do make overcome the second one hard since I've heard several talk about how they can't wait till the revolution eradicates how religion. I'm just thinking "yeah, tell the working class that you want to eradicate their religion, see how well that works out." Sorry for going off topic, I just spent an hour trying to explain Buddhism to people on Revleft and I'm frustrated with this stupid notion that all personal religious beliefs are necessary reactionary and that you have to have some form of imposed atheism to be socialist. It's never going to happen.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
11. My answer is that the early Bolshevik Party........
Mon May 28, 2012, 06:12 PM
May 2012

Imposed no religious test on members when it was growing from fringe to a mass party. You just had to believe in the materialistic version of historical processes and leave God out of it. Of course you also had to leave God out of government also.

What your personal religious philosophy was didn't enter into it. That was your personal property, just like your shirt. If I'm not mistaken, there might have been some later rules regarding this, but not at first.

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
12. I agree, but it seems many leftists don't.
Mon May 28, 2012, 06:35 PM
May 2012

I sometimes wonder how many supposed Marxists have actually read Marx when I hear stuff like "religious goes against Marxist materialism." No, it doesn't. Marx's materialism was historical materialism, the idea that economic factors and class struggle are the driving force being society. That is not at all the same as ontological materialism, which is a philosophical view that the material world is the only thing that exists. I'm sure everyone who knows the difference, because the DU socialist community seems far more knowledgeable about actual socialism than the sectarian idiots over at Revleft.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
14. I think some folks on RevLeft just went through Marx with a hilighter pen
Mon May 28, 2012, 07:56 PM
May 2012

Last edited Mon May 28, 2012, 09:31 PM - Edit history (1)

and got what they thought was "Marxism", but didn't go any further. I've seen a couple of other sites go like that too. I only go over to RevLeft when I feel like wanting a sensation like being stabbed in the eye.

I think the only reason for Marxism to criticize a religion would be if they had lots of private property that would be better off nationalized. (I haven't done a lot of reading about this, but I have a hunch that's why the Catholic Church is foresquare against Marxism even though the social justice arm of the CC tends to be socialistic in nature. I don't know, I'm a former Catholic and find some of their stances puzzling.)

Lots of religious people are pro-worker and pro-union though. The Church plays a huge part in helping protect agricultural workers, and bashing religion would be totally counter-productive and offensive. The most important thing is that you do what is necessary to help your class, the workers.

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
15. When I was still a Catholic, there social-justice teachings was what drew me to them.
Mon May 28, 2012, 08:09 PM
May 2012

However, there stance on women's rights and gay rights was one of the things that drove me away. They do great work for unions and immigrants though. I've also heard the group Catholic Worker is very radical. Someone really needs to shake up the power structure in the Catholic Church, maybe get some Liberation Theologist elected Pope. That would drive Rick Santorum mad.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
16. During the October Revolution..........
Mon May 28, 2012, 08:43 PM
May 2012

And shortly afterwards the Bolsheviks did take a lot of church property, but they looked at it no differently than taking the property of the big landowners for the use by the peasantry. IOW, it wasn't because they were churches that the property was taken, it was because the peasants needed land and the land was tied up in "Ownership" by the feudal system AND the church. Bolsheviks, at least at first, pretty much ignored the church. Now later in the Thirties, I think there was more active persecution, but not at first.

All that said though, I think it would be disingenous to think that any sort of God has a place in Marxist thought. It is by nature a materialistic system. However, I don't think anybody's private religion is an automatic disqualifier to being a Marxist. Just don't try to bring it into governance.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
20. I know a bunch of those kind of "Marxists" on campus, here.
Mon May 28, 2012, 10:49 PM
May 2012

They haven't read much Marx or works by other Leftist thinkers and are "Marxists" because it's cool to be "non-conformist".

Many deeply spiritual Latin Americans are also Socialists. That's where Liberation Theology came from.

limpyhobbler

(8,244 posts)
8. Awesome.
Mon May 28, 2012, 02:46 PM
May 2012

I don't really have a lot of stuff. But it's good to know I can hang on to it.

Someone should do a big advertising/awareness campaign to counter some of the misinformation about socialism.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
9. Good thread. I suspect that when people think "property" they are thinking about homes and small
Mon May 28, 2012, 03:04 PM
May 2012

businesses, even small farms. That is what makes them afraid and what needs to be understood. It would probably help to look at what many of the European people are allowed to keep and what it nationalized.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
10. Thank you jwirr!
Mon May 28, 2012, 06:01 PM
May 2012

I agree, that is what makes people afraid. Especially in the US, where the founding backbone of the nation's mythology is the small gentleman farmer and the personal business owner/shopkeep. It still plays an important part in the collective psyche of our society.

I'm having a tricky time finding exact numbers of factory farms compared to family farms, but I suspect that monopoly capitalism has taken over many parts of agriculture by now. People stress out over "collectivization" of agriculture and farmers, but our agriculture has been collectivized by corporations for several decades, right?

http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/food/factoryfarms/

Most animals raised for food in the United States are raised on factory farms.

<snip>

The total number of livestock on the largest factory farms rose by more than one-fifth between 2002 and 2007.

The average size of hog factory farms increased by 42 percent over a decade. Seven states average more than 10,000 hogs per factory farm.

The average size of egg operations has grown by half over the decade. The five states with the largest flocks all average at least 750,000 hens per factory farm.



More by state: http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/food/factoryfarms/factory-farms-state-fact-sheets/

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
13. Even the family farms in states like Iowa are huge and run like factory farms. Here in Minnesota
Mon May 28, 2012, 06:57 PM
May 2012

in the northern part there are still genuine small family farms because the climate and soil are not always the best for huge farming. These small owners grow to feed their families and sell what is left over. My family never factory farmed and now my children are following in my dad's footsteps.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
21. My boss's in-laws own an organic farm up in the McIntosh area.
Mon May 28, 2012, 10:55 PM
May 2012

They are progressive Catholics and are wonderful people who take the RCC's teachings on social justice seriously.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
17. There is a huge distinction between personal property and private property in Marxism
Mon May 28, 2012, 09:53 PM
May 2012

Personal Property is what you have, your home, your clothes, your small business.

Private Property is an extension beyond personal property that includes, in one way or another, the means of production. Means of production of capital are meant to be shared.

So mote it be.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
18. I get sick of correcting the "socialists want to take away my stuff" thing.
Mon May 28, 2012, 10:41 PM
May 2012

People in our society have been essentially indoctrinated into equating personal possessions with private property, as shown in how people use the term "property" to refer to their personal possessions.

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