I've been out of the loop apparently, Nader bogyman is making the rounds again

[2banon]

I just noticed two separate OP's circulating the same old tired propaganda deflecting the real reason(s) for Bush Co 2000/2004 coup d'etat. It's all Nader's fault. Nothing at all to do with the Neo Con policies embraced and adapted by the Clinton administration. Nothing at all to do with election fraud (not voter fraud), nothing to do with a well orchestrated coup involving the Supreme Court with the blessing of Sandra Day O'Connor by the way. Nothing to do with a compliant media.

I suppose this is to some extent predictable however, given what should have been learned and understood by now one would think they'd put this tired bullshit to rest once and for all at this point in time.

It's as disheartening as it is pathetic.

I suspect it's all about supporting Hillary Clinton for POTUS (?).. or is there something else going on that I missed in the past week?

[Xipe Totec]

1. It's all Nader's fault.

Since you brought it up.

[bowens43]

2. it's not a bogyman, it's truth...

i'm amazed and saddened by those who defend hat piece of shit.Nader put bush in the oval office, that's a fact.

[2banon]

4. No, it isn't a fact..

but you just keep on believing that myth if it makes you feel better.

[Dawgs]

15. It is a fact. Without Nader many of those things on your list are irrelevant. n/t

[2banon]

20. Oh.. i get it. you forgot your sarcasm tag... :)

didn't realize it at first..

[Dawgs]

21. Nope. Your first assumption was correct. n/t

[TBF]

3. Capitalists will be capitalists ...

they are doing what they do.

[2banon]

6. Unclear as to what you mean..

If this is about renewing rage to support rationalization for Neo-Con HRC for potus, I suppose that explains it. Is that you mean?

[TBF]

9. Yup - that's part of it -

The status quo controls the conversation in order to keep the whole corrupt system afloat.

[2banon]

11. Yep, that makes sense as to what's going on with this..

I can envision Bernie Sanders becoming their new bogyman if he chooses to toss his hat in, and with any miracle actually get on the ballot.

Maybe we should just let sleeping dogs lie on the Nader Hate circus route.. LOL!

[arcane1]

5. And don't you dare think about tilting left! The Center is where it's at.

Or something

[2banon]

7. Center? Where is that these days?

Dead square in the middle of Neo Conservatism?

[L0oniX]

10. Some where between the left butt cheek and the right butt cheek?

[2banon]

12. LOL!

[L0oniX]

8. How else do you expect to get Rino voters to replace the progressive voters?

[Starry Messenger]

13. And the tired theory that these votes would have gone to Gore.

I didn't vote for Nader, but I didn't vote for Gore either. I'm in CA, so it doesn't really matter.

Gore wasn't very inspiring, but be that as it may, blame people who voted Republican and stop thinking that there are "safe" votes. Every vote should be earned.

[2banon]

14. California was a "safe" state for Gore..

Safe to register and vote Green, because of the electoral "infrastructure" could make safe (albeit purely symbolic) in place. Florida not so much. I remember the attempt for California Greens attempting to make some sort of arrangement with Texan Greens the deal was for Texas Greens to vote Gore, and we'd go for broke on California Green ticket, knowing that Gore would win handedly here. the effort was about establishing the party with viable candidates, as an alternative to the Neo-Con's Third Way policy element. But the massive election fraud infrastructure engineered by Karl Rove et al, was revealed post 2000 elections and that I think put everything into a tail spin. Ultimately, it didn't matter a wit, as the 1% would have their way, come hell or high water and reverse everything into the most radical right wing in this country since before FDR ala SCOTUS. Lot's of well deserved blame goes to Scalia, but I place it on squarely on Sandra Day O'Connors shoulders for letting Scalia et al get their way. She could have prevented that decision, easily.

[Doctor_J]

16. The DINOs will be taking this on a new tour every couple years for eternity

Don't like Hobby Lobby? Nader

Don't like the corporate-friendly aspects of ACA? Nader

Fracking? Nader

School privatization? Gun proliferation? Iraq War? Nader.

So bizarre

[Ichingcarpenter]

17. Gore blamed Clinton for his defeat in election

Mr Gore "forcefully" blamed the former president for his loss, saying that the Monica Lewinsky sex scandal and the low esteem in which voters held Mr Clinton had proved serious obstacles to his campaign. But in the stormy White House confrontation, thought to have taken place between the end of the post-election drama on Dec 12 and Christmas Day, Mr Clinton replied equally strongly, according to friends, telling Mr Gore that he would have won if he had run on the Democrats' successful record in office.




The two, whose relationship has been very difficult since the Lewinsky affair and the impeachment that followed it, had their showdown alone inside the White House and it lasted for more than an hour. According to a Gore aide, the discussion was "cathartic", while a Clinton friend called it "tense". Another source who knows both told the Washington Post that the tone of the conversation was "very, very blunt". The newspaper said that while the former vice-president's friends called the meeting "very constructive", the Clinton side saw it as a much angrier event in which Mr Gore laid bare a simmering resentment of his former boss.
During the election campaign, tensions arose regularly between the Clinton White House and the Gore campaign, with Mr Clinton wondering openly why Mr Gore was not making more of the successes of the administration and using the president in campaigning. Mr Clinton said on one occasion that he was ready to rescue the struggling Gore effort. One senior Democrat said the tension between the two men, openly friendly at events such as the party convention in Los Angeles or at the launch of the Gore campaign, "was far worse than anyone knew".

Many Clinton supporters believe that the vice-president had a mental block about the man he was trying to succeed in the White House, making it clear he was uncomfortable with any level of involvement by the president in his campaign. Tipper Gore, the candidate's wife, was said to be particularly angry with Mr Clinton's "betrayal".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1321720/Gore-blamed-Clinton-for-his-defeat-in-election.html


From journalist Tony Schinella:

In Florida, CNN’s exit polling showed Nader taking the same amount of votes from both Republicans and Democrats: 1 percent. Nader also took 4 percent of the independent vote. At the same time, 13 percent of registered Democrats voted for Bush! Again, Gore couldn’t hold his own base and because of this, he lost. The Democrats don’t say one word about the fact that 13 percent of their own party members voted for Bush.

In fact, by a huge margin, the people who voted for Nader were not ex-Democrats, but ex-Reform Party voters who supported Ross Perot. These people 1) vote third party or stay at home, 2) won’t vote for a D or R regardless, and 3) are conservatives not liberals.

When asked who they voted for in 1996, 1 percent of Nader’s voters said they voted for Bill Clinton, 1 percent said they voted for Bob Dole, and 10 percent said they voted for Ross Perot.

Here is the chart:

1996——All—Gore—Bush—Buchanan—Nader
Clinton—46——82——16———0————1
Dole——30——–4——93———0————1
Perot——–7——23——65———1———–10
No vote—12——50——44———0————7

Again, Nader’s support did not come from Democratic supporters. They were mainly non-voters and ex-Perot supporters, most of whom were conservatives who supported Bush anyway. Not only that, Nader took from Democrats and Republicans equally: one measly percent.

Further:
Here are the sources:

Raw FL exit poll data:
http://www.vrdc.cornell.edu/info4470/projects/~bap63/pdf/florida2000.pdf

Tony Schinella Report:
http://politizine.blogspot.com/2004/02/debunking-myth-ralph-nader-didnt-cost.html

Progressive Review report
http://prorev.com/green2000.htm

Matthew Jones of USC’s Political Science Department:
http://www.disinfo.com/2010/11/debunked-the-myth-that-ralph-nader-cost-al-gore-the-2000-election/

ABC News:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2008/02/spoilage/


http://my.firedoglake.com/jest/2012/08/26/debunking-pathological-myths-of-the-2000-election-part-1-cnn-exit-polls-prove-that-nader-did-not-cost-gore-fl/



All this Nader talk is a distraction ..... hell Clinton's blowjob affair probably cost 3 million votes and nobody mentions that ... his stupid affair also cost the election too, plus all the other factors including the supreme court and crooked Florida politics.

I voted for Gore but went to the Jackson Brown /Bonnie Raitt concert supporting Nader... great concert bTW in colorado


Notice the Nader haters try to distract from the real issues? Its like Snowden but with a touch of Glen. and another 3 mins of hate rant.

[Starry Messenger]

19. "At the same time, 13 percent of registered Democrats voted for Bush!"

This needs to be repeated over and over.

Great post.

It's hard to say in hindsight what would have worked for Gore, if anything. The showdown shows to me that both men were woefully out of touch, and so was the Democratic Party.

There are things that Obama has done that are disappointing to me, but he's changed the way Dems campaign, imo. Hopefully future Presidential campaigners will take a page of out the OFA book and really energize voters.

[Ichingcarpenter]

22. I'm not going to get into a pissing match in GD

over the facts and I have the DATA

because the facts don't matter in GD just opinions and their junior high school pompoms, flag waving rally for each other's hero worship.

I just Notice don searches on the 2000 election the data is shrinking on the net. I remember a story where Gore even said he didn't blame Nader and now I can't find it.

I knew democrat hispanics that voted for Bush because of Clinton's behavior and Bush jumped on that point and gained votes. I didn''t care about Clinton's affair just his lying about it because I knew it would hurt our chances in the 2000 election.

Anyway I love our forum here.

[Starry Messenger]

23. I love our forum too. :)

[2banon]

26. Hear, Here!

That's why I posted in this forum. Don't have time or interest in engaging with deniers.. Interesting about what's available on the internet. I was about to look for the NYT article on the actual election results in Florida as a Gore win, deliberately published after the Supreme Court anointed Bush as Further. So a lot of people missed that report.

[Ichingcarpenter]

27. Octafish and I have both

noticed things disappearing on the web or down the memory hole as we call it. Its real and its happening. Washington Post had a story of Gore blaming Clinton which even noted what page it was on and its now gone.

I really don't even think many of these people are deniers from knowing the history of their posts and acclamations, they are just the usual suspects.

Notice no one mentions Clintons affairs and other real scandals , you know the ones not manufactured by republicans, having an effect on the electorant. in those threads For a short history just review any old Tom Tomorrow toons during the Clinton years.he always knew the score on Slick Willy and yes he's a lovable scoundrel but
they didn't call it the Arkansas mafia for nothing and the word mafia was not just a mild reference.

One of the best researched and I think unbiased book, which book is not? LOL, to read is Partners in Power: The Clintons and Their America by Rojer Morris also try to find a long interview he did around 2004 or 5...

Because he had found even more documented stuff that helps explain Bill's close friendship with the Bush Crime family and how it started with the CIA.
a long time ago.


Nader saw how the corporate corruption was destroying the US a long time ago and warned us about its final destination as ruling both parties and this nation. Perot was right too about Nafta, but I didn't vote for either of them.I think local politics change things these days.

[socialist_n_TN]

36. Can I join in on the lovefest here for the Socialist Progressives forum?......

I love it also.

[2banon]

42. you're presence is always welcomed, love your posts.

[socialist_n_TN]

43. Right back atcha 2banon........

Begin checking out the South Africa situation. It's rapidly developing from an already pre-revolutionary phase and it's majorly working class based. Once again (like Ukraine) it's got some conflicting dynamics, but it's actually a lot more clear-cut than Ukraine.

[2banon]

24. Hadn't see those stats before..

I don't know the actual stats wrt to Greens in California, (in fact there were two different Green Parties, both in support of Nader) but a significant portion of those in Northern California (Bay Area and northward) were actively supporting Nader. However, a number of Nor Ca Greens had advocated strategic voting, what was referred to as strategically "vote swapping" with Greens in states like Texas. The strategy was to have Texas Greens vote for Gore, and California Greens vote for Nader, since California was safe for Gore. Others in the Green party voted for Gore at the top of the ticket, and voted Green Party candidates down the ballot.

The point of that was about establishing the foundation of a viable alternative to the Third Way-DLC.

The DLC sent out the Blame it on Nader brigade and have ever since effectively obfuscating all of the factors that contributed to The Coup of 2000. I strongly suspect it is on the list of job duties of party functionaries, and as you point out, completely disregarding voter attitudes, huge election fraud and all of the other factors laid bare for all to see for anyone with a set of eyes.

It is very curious as to why this old canard is being trotted out and polished now? a distraction?

I'm speculating of course, but it smells more like an intimidation tactic being employed by the HRC campaign. It certainly has a certain whiff of it.

Thanks for your time in numerating the facts and sources wrt to 2000 election coup.

[Oakenshield]

28. Terrific post.

Thanks for sharing!

[2banon]

33. thanks for the links... bookmarking

[Oakenshield]

18. They're using Nader as a scapegoat.

Better to blame those darn moonbat liberals than look into a mirror. Frankly the whole charade makes me sick. It's clearly all an attempt to justify our party's shift towards the right, so that we can be more "electable". Meanwhile everyone on Wallstreet is laughing.

[2banon]

25. Nailed it..

[TBF]

29. A scapegoat and a bright, shiny object -

they know that a lot of folks out there in the general public will just remember that their birth control became out of reach financially during Obama's administration so they want to downplay the decision. The distraction is obvious - blame someone who doesn't matter, focus on GOTV for 2014, and get ready for Hillary. That's the game plan and they're sticking with it.

The focus on this site is voting/elections. It isn't a bad thing to vote, imo, but letting it limit the conversation is short-sighted. Much smarter to listen to folks questions and answer them because if you don't someone else will.

[socialist_n_TN]

30. No you haven't been out of the loop. It's the same shit, different day....

Every time the capitalists and/or their toadies in the legislatures or on the courts do something egregious to oppress people and further the takeover, Nader gets brought up again. FOURTEEN FUCKING YEARS AGO! It's NOT Nader, it's people who vote for the supporters of capitalism that has caused this current catastrophe.

[2banon]

32. well said..

I hadn't noticed the pattern before. I've seen it crop up from time to time, but I've always ignored the threads.. not worth time and energy weighing in. it's like talking to freepers about Bush Co.'s Iraq War pretext. boot lickers etc. but I don't recall seeing more than one before today.

[ctsnowman]

38. Yup.

[Omaha Steve]

31. Chads & butterflies too

K&R!

[yallerdawg]

34. It didn't have to be "Florida, Florida, Florida."

Gore didn't even win his home state Tennessee. I remember "Clinton fatigue" back then.

It is a political tragedy that Bill Clinton brought so much baggage to the Gore election. I believe Al Gore was about the most prepared potential president, possibly in our history. It should have been a cake walk.

You want to see the "Butterfly Effect" in action? Imagine the Lewinsky affair never happened. What a different world we would be in.

Anyone like Nader who is a viable candidate for office should not be vilified for running. It shouldn't be about limiting our choices.

[2banon]

35. Yeah, I remember "Clinton Fatigue" too..

but I find it somewhat strange that the so called "Nader factor" is being recycled at this juncture over in GD.

The whole thing is just lame, imo. .

[octoberlib]

37. I think they're just trying to deflect from the fact that

Bill Clinton is responsible for the Religious Freedom Restoration Act which allowed the Supreme Court to rule as it did in the Hobby Lobby case. The act blurred the lines between separation of church and state. Funny how no one's talking about that. Blame Ralph Nader instead!!

[2banon]

39. I don't remember that particular factoid.

I wasn't paying attention on the lever I had been during Bush Co's reign of terror years. A few important things made my radar but I don't recall hearing about any "Religious Freedom Restoration Act"..

I'm thinking, if I wasn't aware of it, maybe a whole of folks wasn't either?

[octoberlib]

40. I've seen numerous articles on it since the SC ruling . Clinton signed the bill

and Democrats voted overwhemingly in favor.

How Bill Clinton's near-sightedness led to the Hobby Lobby decision. The 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act was strongly supported by liberals. But the law has come back to bite them.


In 1993, Bill Clinton signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The law represented the kind of consensus that even then was rare: it passed on a voice vote in the House of Representatives and 97-3 in the Senate. A resolution praising cute kittens probably couldn't have gotten as much support. And yet the legislation was a serious mistake, as demonstrated by the recent Supreme Court decision permitting Hobby Lobby to deny its employees their right to contraceptive coverage.

The origins of RFRA can be found in the 1990 Supreme Court case Oregon v. Smith. Two native Americans, Alfred Smith and Galen Black, were fired because they took peyote as part of a religious ceremony, and were subsequently denied unemployment benefits by the state of Oregon. They sued, arguing that Oregon had violated their First Amendment right to the free exercise of religion.

http://theweek.com/article/index/264218/how-bill-clintons-near-sightedness-led-to-the-hobby-lobby-decision


They're aware. https://www.google.com/search?q=rfra&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com&gws_rd=ssl

[2banon]

41. Hobby Lobby Decision is the evil spawn of Bill Clinton

Thanks for enlightening me on this matter, Octoberlib. This should be in a thread of it's own.