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Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
Wed Jun 14, 2023, 10:59 PM Jun 2023

Ever noticed this famous Zeppelin song is reminiscent of a famous earlier Doobie Brothers Song?

Trampled Underfoot from Physical Graffiti (from 1975 though it's known to have a lot of songs written for past albums on it, like Houses of the Holy)



Slow Train Running (1973)


It's not just the constant repetition of the word love ... the relation has a deeper music theory component.

And it's not in the same key, not quite that simple ... so what music nerd can explain why they sound similar?



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Ever noticed this famous Zeppelin song is reminiscent of a famous earlier Doobie Brothers Song? (Original Post) Hugh_Lebowski Jun 2023 OP
I see what you mean Rachel M at 6 pm Jun 2023 #1
I get the similarity Hugh Diamond_Dog Jun 2023 #2
Riff is the right term, but the answer I'm looking for is more music theory-oriented Hugh_Lebowski Jun 2023 #3
I'll take a shot... CincyDem Jun 2023 #4
Pretty damn close :) Hugh_Lebowski Jun 2023 #6
I can see that. CincyDem Jun 2023 #11
Why do the sound similar? Both groups knew 3 or so chords. Zep was better with them. Silent Type Jun 2023 #5
Ridiculous assertion Hugh_Lebowski Jun 2023 #7
I got one word for ya. CincyDem Jun 2023 #13
Waters wrote a great many of the tunes and most are fairly simplistic chord-wise Hugh_Lebowski Jun 2023 #15
Three chords??? I don't even know The Unmitigated Gall Jun 2023 #9
There's probably a '60s song that makes this Doobies' song sound like a TeamProg Jun 2023 #8
John Paul Jones says.... BlueTsunami2018 Jun 2023 #10
Boom. Absolutely. Never heard it before but now it's obvious. n/t CincyDem Jun 2023 #12
From A Music Nerd ProfessorGAC Jun 2023 #14

Diamond_Dog

(32,096 posts)
2. I get the similarity Hugh
Wed Jun 14, 2023, 11:14 PM
Jun 2023

But I’m not sure how to describe it.

Kind of like the same guitar riff played throughout both songs in the background? Is that the correct term?

Pretty good observation - I’ve heard both songs numerous times but never put them together like that.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
3. Riff is the right term, but the answer I'm looking for is more music theory-oriented
Wed Jun 14, 2023, 11:21 PM
Jun 2023

Full disclosure, Mandy's the one who made the connection as we were listening to it just now. She has a lot more theory knowledge than I do, and knows her classic rock

CincyDem

(6,390 posts)
4. I'll take a shot...
Wed Jun 14, 2023, 11:33 PM
Jun 2023

The vocal part from Plant is what you should sing to someone if you said “what’s that doobie’s song, the one that goes…”

Theoretically, iirc, long train runnin’ is a chord progression that the top notes are a half step change. I think it’s a d-minor7 (a top) to a g-minor7 (Bb top). That might be the progression under plant’s vocals too, albeit with a different rhythm pattern.

That’s reaching back 35 years but I think it’s why you’re hearing the two the same.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
6. Pretty damn close :)
Thu Jun 15, 2023, 12:19 AM
Jun 2023

Besides certain lyrics and cadences in the vocals, Long Train is B flat major and Trampled is G minor ... which are two very closely-related but not identical key signatures (varying only on where you start the progression).

So says my lady anyway

CincyDem

(6,390 posts)
11. I can see that.
Thu Jun 15, 2023, 06:22 AM
Jun 2023

A Bb maj9 and a Gm sus9 can be the same 4 notes (C D F A). Same with a Bb6 vs a Gm7 (D F G Bb). Bass player drives the major minor feeling depending on his patterns and where they resolve.

Never thought much about what key the song is but yeah, I can hear Johnston and Page playing pretty much the same chords/position with the songs being in those two keys.

Cool.




 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
7. Ridiculous assertion
Thu Jun 15, 2023, 12:46 AM
Jun 2023

Page and Jonesy knew ALL the chords, all the possible phrasings of those chords, how to play them in any octave, and consistently came up with inventive ways to put them together.

Claiming Zeps music is all simplistic is just wrong. Some songs, yes. But there were complex pieces they did. Song Remains the Same, The Rain Song and The Rover jump to mind offhand.

And is Achilles Last Stand ... 3 chords throughout?

Doesn't appear so to me ... https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/led-zeppelin/achilles-last-stand-chords-1971325

Pretty sure that's A-G in one song. Just saying.

Not saying they ever 'achieved' the heights of wankery like Close to the Edge (a song I do love) or Steely Dan or King Crimson ... but if they'd wanted to be a prog-rock band I have no doubt they could've been one.

And I don't care want anyone says, Bonham was a creative genius behind the kit. He makes so many of their songs what they are. They were a case of the sum being much greater than the parts.

A lot of The Who, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd's most famous songs are way simpler I must also point out.

CincyDem

(6,390 posts)
13. I got one word for ya.
Thu Jun 15, 2023, 06:33 AM
Jun 2023

Kashmir

Tell me that’s simplistic, go ahead. I dare ya. I double dare ya.

3 chords. Com’on man.

But…I ain’t gonna stand up for Townsend but ya didn’t have to take a swing at Richards or Gilmore to make the point. Lol.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
15. Waters wrote a great many of the tunes and most are fairly simplistic chord-wise
Thu Jun 15, 2023, 10:21 AM
Jun 2023

Dave's leads are another story altogether, of course.

Stones also have a lot of 3 or 4 chord songs as well.

I'm saying Zeppelin is no more limited in this regard than other favorite artists.

The Unmitigated Gall

(3,835 posts)
9. Three chords??? I don't even know
Thu Jun 15, 2023, 01:18 AM
Jun 2023

How many guitar tunings Page had. I still like to tune my guitar to The Rain Song…DGCGCD. Just strumming the open strings sounds magical.

TeamProg

(6,261 posts)
8. There's probably a '60s song that makes this Doobies' song sound like a
Thu Jun 15, 2023, 01:06 AM
Jun 2023

borrowed feel, cadence, beat.


It’s only rock and roll.


ProfessorGAC

(65,213 posts)
14. From A Music Nerd
Thu Jun 15, 2023, 08:39 AM
Jun 2023

I think you're hearing things!
There not just in a different key, Long Train is accented on the 1 & 4, while Trampled is on the 2 & 4.
As to the melodic similarity, there are only 6 notes that define a melody. At the end of every phrase on the Doobie's song, he goes up. Plant doesn't.
Given there's only the 6 notes, it's easy to find melodic similarities then separate by details like timing & phrasing.
I hear a LOT of differences in phrasing.
There is far more different than the same.

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