Vote scheduled to ban all hiking in PA. Game Lands for 130 DAYS per year

[JPZenger]

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/breaking-news/index.ssf/2015/01/pennsylvania_considering_all-o.html#incart_m-rpt-1

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Update--Proposed-SGL-Hiker-Permits---Ban.html?soid=1109173495148&aid=rPWLMccpN5g

Most hikers with half of a brain will avoid hiking on Game Lands during the start of deer hunting season, when most of the amateur hunters are running around. Many hikers are also smart enough to wear lots of orange during hunting seasons and to leave the fluffy cotton-tail hats at home.

However, now the State Game Commission, which controls all State Game Lands, will consider voting in 2 weeks to ban all hiking in State Game lands during all hunting seasons. This totals 130 DAYS PER YEAR.

This follows their other proposal to require that anyone who hikes on State Game Lands must obtain a permit from them. They also had proposals last year to require expensive permits for mountain biking.

The Game Commission gets angry because the game lands are entirely funded by hunters, but all those other smelly masses try to use the land for other types of recreation. Get off my lawn!

The PA. Game Lands cover 1.4 million acres of land.

The ban would include two periods - including mid-April to Memorial Day.

Keystone Trails Association encourages you to send your concerns to the PGC directly at [e-mail], and consider attending the PGC meeting on January 25

[Turbineguy]

1. Hmmm.... maybe we have reached the other side.

People who don't get shot are able to buy guns.

[nilesobek]

2. I've seen the havoc that inexperienced hunters from NJ can create.

They shot a guy off his porch in Maine thinking he was a deer. This is a terrible, unconstitutional law that should be resisted in the courts. Mid April to Memorial day ban on hiking? That's the height of the hiking season unless you enjoy snow camping.

[happyslug]

7. That is also the Spring Gobbler season....

Spring Turkey hunting is in May in Pennsylvania. You are to only go after Gobblers with "Beards" but it is very popular with hunters. Thus the ban ends with the end of Deer Season in the middle of January, and restarts only during the spring gobbler season. It is a reasonable restriction but also one someone can bypass":

1. The rule does NOT forbid hiking on Sunday, for hunting (except for Crows) is illegal on Sundays.

2. If the hiker has a Hunting License he or she can claim she is hunting. It would be nice, in addition to a hunting license, to have a shotgun to show you were hunting for how does the Game Commission prove you were not if you have a hunting license and a shotgun?

As i pointed out below I suspect this is a plan to increase revenues for the Game Commission NOT end hiking on Game Commission Lands (and people below age 16 would be EXEMPT from the ban on hiking).

[Politicalboi]

3. They should ban alcohol while hunting

Perhaps that would help avoid accidents.

[happyslug]

6. It is banned, but like the ban on drinking and driving ignored..

AS to drinking and hunting, it is often talked about but most of the hunters I hunted with NEVER went out drunk and most avoiding drinking during Deer Camp (You had exceptions, but they tended to be the same people who get DUIs). Thus Alcohol is BANNED and has been BANNED for decades, just like Driving while drinking has been banned.

The "Connection" between Hunting and Alcohol is like the connection between driving and alcohol. Most hunters and most drivers do NOT drink while hunting or driving, but you have some who do and that who you read about in the papers. Thus since someone somewhere was caught drinking and driving, should you be accused of drinking while driving because you have a driver's license??? You would rightfully say no, driving does NOT mean you would drink. The same with hunting, hunting does NOT imply hunters are all drunks, most are NOT but like DUIs, you hear of the drunk hunters all the time.

Remember Pulitzer's comment "Dog biting man is NOT news, Man biting dog, that is NEWS". We hear of the EXCEPTIONS to what is normal NOT what is normal. A Dog biting a man is "normal" it happens, everyone knows it happens and rarely talked about much after the bite. On the other hand if a Man biting a dog is so strange and abnormal it is talked about and the word of it spreads and hits the front page of the papers. People like horror stories and when you read them remember what Pulitzer said, for that reflects not only what is reported in papers, but on television and today the net. Horror Stories that affect almost no one unlike actual dog bites cases that do cause real people real harm.

[MisterP]

4. "hiking is a UN CONSPIRACY!!!111"

[happyslug]

8. This proposal sounds like a "Tax"

See my comments below on why this is to increase revenue to the Game Commission NOT an attack on Hikers.

[happyslug]

5. Here is the actual PROPOSED Regulation

Last edited Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:52 PM - Edit history (2)

You must understand the proposed change is a change to the existing regulation set forth in the PA Code:

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter135/subchapCtoc.html

Game Commission Mapping Center, where you can download a state wide map of Game lands AND individual maps of each game land.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1528109&mode=2

Proposed rule:

BUREAU OF WILDLIFE HABITAT MANAGEMENT
PROPOSED RULE MAKING

A. Amend 58 Pa. Code §§ 135.41 and create Chapter 147, Subchapter AA.

Commentary: At the Board of Commissioners meeting conducted on June 10, 2014, the Bureau of Wildlife Habitat Management was directed to study the feasibility of the Game Commission enacting a permit requirement for all game lands secondary users who are not currently in possession of a valid hunting or furtaking license. At the Commissioner’s Working Group Meeting on August 11, 2014, a briefing and recommendation was presented by the Bureau of Wildlife Habitat Management to require the permit for those individuals that were utilizing designated trails on State Game Lands for the purpose of bicycling, horseback riding and snowmobiling. At the Commission Meeting on September 23, the proposed rulemaking was tabled to allow for additional input from Commission Staff. Based on those staff discussions and the public comments received and in order to manage the game lands for its intended uses, the following proposed rulemaking is being offered for Board consideration. This proposal allows the agency to disseminate information to the secondary users of game lands that do not purchase a hunting or furtaking license (and therefore do not receive the annual hunting and trapping digest) and to collect information from these individuals to further protect and enhance the primary purposes of hunting, trapping, and wildlife management on game lands.

CHAPTER 135. LANDS AND BUILDINGS

Subchapter C. STATE GAME LANDS

§ 135.41. State game lands.
* * * * *

(c) Additional prohibitions. In addition to the prohibitions contained in the act pertaining to State game lands and § 135.2, except with the written permission of the Director, it is unlawful to:
* * * * *

(5) [Ride] Hike on foot or ride a nonmotorized vehicle, conveyance or animal from the last Saturday in September until the third Saturday in January, and [before 1p.m.] from the second Saturday in April through [the last Saturday in May] Memorial Day inclusive, except on Sundays or while lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping or fishing.
* * * * *

(23) Ride on designated bike trails, snowmobile trails or horse trails or hike on foot on any lands or waters designated as State game lands, unless the person is in possession of a valid hunting or furtaker license or a valid SGL permit signed by its holder. This provision shall not be construed to apply to:

(i) Persons 15 years of age or younger or up to one person accompanying another person in possession of a valid Pennsylvania hunting or furtaking license or a Commission-issued trail permit.

(ii) Persons using the Appalachian Trail, Laurel Highlands Trail, Horse-Shoe Trail, rails-to-trails or other trails on State game lands under current written agreement or other formal legal authorization permitting such use.

CHAPTER 147. SPECIAL PERMITS

Subchapter AA. STATE GAME LANDS TRAIL PERMIT

§ 147.1021. Purpose and scope.

This subchapter provides for trail permits to be issued to eligible persons to authorize their holders to ride on designated bike trails, snowmobile trails or horse trails or hike on foot on lands and waters designated as State game lands.

§ 147.1022. Eligibility and application.

(a) Trail permits will only be issued to persons 16 years of age or older who do not possess a valid Pennsylvania hunting or furtaker license.
(b) Applications for trail permits issued under this subchapter shall be made on a form provided by the Commission.
(c) Applications must include the name and contact information of the permit applicant.
(d) There is no fee for a trail permit.

§ 147.1023. Trail permit.

(a) A trail permit issued under this subchapter authorizes the permittee to ride on designated bike trails, snowmobile trails or horse trails or hike on foot on lands and waters designated as State game lands.

(b) Permittees shall utilize designated bike trails, snowmobile trails or horse trails or hike on foot on lands and waters designated as State game lands in a manner consistent with applicable requirements, conditions and restrictions provided for in the act and §§ 135.2 and 135.41 (relating to unlawful actions and State game lands).

§ 147.687. Sunset clause.

The provisions of this subchapter shall become effective July 1, 2015 and shall expire and be rendered void on June 30, 2018, unless the Commission further authorizes their legal effectiveness prior to this termination date.

https://mlsvc01-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/c6564ef3201/4b10e37f-b0d5-42b8-8c31-9eb88d442140.pdf

Notice there is two parts, one is banning biking or hiking on state game lands during hunting season AND the second is for a no fee permit to hike the rest of the year.

Lets address the hiking during hunting seasons first. How is the ban to be enforced? I suspect it is an effort to get hikers to buy a hunting license. Such a hunting license will carry with it a PRESUMPTION that you are hunting. See what is in season and carry with you a weapon usable and maybe a couple of rounds, thus you are "hunting". Remember there is no CLOSED season for Coyotes (Except for "Big Game, defined as der, elk, bear and Turkey), and a light weight 30-30 can take any Coyote, From the Game Commission website:

COYOTES: No closed season. Unlimited. Outside of any big game season (deer, bear, elk and turkey), coyotes may be taken with a hunting license or a furtaker license, and without wearing orange. During any big game season, coyotes may be taken while lawfully hunting big game or with a furtaker license.

Coyotes is a HUGE exception to the general ban on hunting during deer season, while during the fall and spring you can NOT "hunt" for coyotes, you can shoot them if you run across than while hunting deer, elk, bear or turkey.

A hiker can claim he was hunting Starlings or groundhog, NO closed season for either EXCEPT Antlered and Antlerless Deer Season AND both can be taken by a 22, a much lighter weapon to haul around. As can porcupines whose season is from September 1 to March 31s

STARLINGS AND ENGLISH SPARROWS: No closed season, except during the antlered and antlerless deer season. No limit.

WOODCHUCKS (GROUNDHOGS): No closed season, except on Sundays and during the regular firearms deer seasons. No limit.

PORCUPINES: Sept. 1-March 31, except during overlap with the regular firearms deer season. Daily limit of three, season limit of 10.

The rest of the "Small Game" have various dates which varies depending on which "Wildlife Management Unit or WMU" you want to go to the Game Lands are in, for details see the actual hunting season:

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=576240&mode=2

Now, that leave deer, bear, elk and turkey seasons. The Regular Deer Season is the most important for during it you CAN ONLY LEGALLY HUNT DEER. The hunting season for starling includes the term "except during the antlered and antlerless deer season", while the above rules for Woodchucks and porcupine use the terms "Regular Firearm deer season". I believe the difference in terminology is historical not real i.e. the term "antlered and antlerless deer season" has replaced what use to be called the "Regular Firearm deer season" thus no real difference. The "Regular Firearm Deer season" is as follows (Deer season starts on the Monday AFTER Thanksgiving):

DEER (Antlered and Antlerless) WMUs 1A, 1B, 2B, 3A, 3D, 5A, 5B, 5C and 5D: Dec. 1-13. One antlered deer per hunting license year. An antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.

DEER (Antlered Only) WMUs 2A, 2C, 2D, 2E, 2F, 2G, 2H, 3B, 3C, 4A, 4B, 4C, 4D and 4E: Dec. 1-5. One antlered deer per hunting license year. (Holders of valid DMAP antlerless deer permits may harvest antlerless deer on DMAP properties during this period.)

DEER (Antlered and Antlerless) WMUs 2A, 2C, 2D, 2E, 2F, 2G, 2H, 3B, 3C, 4A, 4B, 4C, 4D and 4E: Dec. 6-13. One antlered deer per hunting license year. An antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=619923&mode=2

And remember the rule as to if you get a deer, that does NOT prohibit you from participating in a "hunt" you just can NOT carry a weapon. This is because most hunting is a group activity and you still participate even after you get your deer.

As to the ban during the Spring, that is during spring gobbler season, another time where the regular hunting license can show you are "Hunting":

SPRING GOBBLER (Bearded bird only): May 2-30, 2015. Daily limit 1, season limit 2. (Second spring gobbler may be only taken by persons who possess a valid special wild turkey license.) From May 2-16, legal hunting hours are one-half hour before sunrise until noon; from May 18-30, legal hunting hours are one-half hour before sunrise until one-half hour after sunset.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=576240&mode=2

Once you understand the Hunting Rules as they have been for the last 100 or so years (and the recent changes over the last 20-50 years as knowledge of game habits increased) you come to the conclusion that the while purpose of this rule is to get people to buy hunting licenses. You have a license, you are "Hunting", a weapon would be nice, but NOT necessary. If you go any time except the two weeks after Thanksgiving, say you are hunting woodchucks, coyotes and starlings. You do NOT actual have to shoot at any, but if you have a hunting license you would still be legal. A light weight 22 is all you would need to carry to show you are "Hunting" (if you decide NOT to run the risk of saying you are "Scouting" for game instead and that is why you have no weapon on you). A knowledge of what is in reason would help, but that is given to you when you get your license. If you have NEVER hunted, you have to attend a free hunting education class, but it is a short one day class that teaches people how to be safe while hunting.

My point is the part of banning people from State Game Lands is easily bypassed at a nominal cost of $20.70 (Through NON resident hunting license is $101.70, which I consider to high just for the right to walk on state game lands). Hunting fees for 2014-2015 season:

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=596047&mode=2

I suspect the whole purpose of the ban on hikers during hunting season has more to do with increasing revenue then any attempt to actual ban hikers. Thus by saying State Game Lands are restricted to "Hunters" and having the legal presumption that anyone with a hunting license is a hunter, you increase the number of people obtaining licenses and thus revenues to the Game Commission.

Remember this regulation only applies to Game Commission OWNED lands, not lands owned by private people, local governments, the Federal Government (including Allegheny National Forest), state Forest lands and state parks (and any land owned by the Fish Commission). If you live by a State Game lands and use it once or twice a year, the $20,70 may sound excessive, but if you use them once a month that comes to less the $2 a use, not a bad price (if you are a resident, and that is what this regulation is about).

One way to confirm that this is a revenue enhancement plan is be the clause that says this ban on hiking does NOT apply to people younger than age 16. The group rarely has money and are the most likely to be the one hiking on game commission lands. The Game Commission does NOT want to ban people, they just looking at ways to increase revenue.

As to the second part, the requirement for a permit (which there would be no fee) is also an effort in that direction. I suspect what the Commission wants is the right to charge for such a permit, but dares NOT do it at present. Thus this is viewed as a first step, and given that by buying a Hunting License for $20.70 you get the right to use the Game Lands all year round instead of during the non hunting season, people may opt to pay the $20.70 instead of the Free permit.

Simply put, this is an effort by the Game Commission to increase revenues, something the Game Commission needs for it does almost all of the research on animals and birds in Pennsylvania and has its main source of revenue money from Hunting Licenses. The Game Commission works closely with the Fish and Boat Commission for Frogs, Salamanders, snakes and other "Cold Blooded" creatures are under Fish and Boat Commission regulations not Game Commission regulations. Pennsylvania is one of the few states (and I suspect the only state) that separates these functions, but both agencies do work together (and boat regulations was given to the Fish Commission to increase they revenues several years ago). Both agencies need additional funding and the above is one way they can do so given the State Legislature had refused to give them any funding for such non-game research, while requiring the Game Commission to work on such research.

I have been meaning to buy a hunting license so I can show support for the Game Commission and the good work they do, maybe this will finally force me to buy one. I do not hunt but I like the work the Game Commission is doing and maybe this is for the best.

[happyslug]

12. The more I review this, the problem is proposed Section (5).

Last edited Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Present (5) reads as follows:

(c) Additional prohibitions. In addition to the prohibitions contained in the act pertaining to State game lands and § 135.2, except with the written permission of the Director, it is unlawful to:

(5) Ride a nonmotorized vehicle, conveyance or animal from the last Saturday in September until the third Saturday in January, and before 1 p.m. from the second Saturday in April through the last Saturday in May inclusive, except on Sundays or while lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping or fishing.

The proposed change is to:

(c) Additional prohibitions. In addition to the prohibitions contained in the act pertaining to State game lands and § 135.2, except with the written permission of the Director, it is unlawful to

(5) Hike on foot or ride a nonmotorized vehicle, conveyance or animal from the last Saturday in September until the third Saturday in January, and from the second Saturday in April through Memorial Day inclusive, except on Sundays or while lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping or fishing.

While the change from the last Saturday in May to Memorial day is a slight extension, it is one I can live with for we are generally talking about one more day. Memorial day itself. The Additional of the phase "Hike on foot or" expands a ban on biking to include a ban on hiking. Again I would have no objection IF after the word "Sunday" the proposed wording of "or while lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping or fishing" be changed to the wording used in paragraph 23 : "unless the person is in possession of a valid hunting or furtaker license or a valid SGL permit signed by its holder".

Please note (23) is completely new, unlike (5) which is being rewritten. Proposed (23)

(c) Additional prohibitions. In addition to the prohibitions contained in the act pertaining to State game lands and § 135.2, except with the written permission of the Director, it is unlawful to:

(23) Ride on designated bike trails, snowmobile trails or horse trails or hike on foot on any lands or waters designated as State game lands, unless the person is in possession of a valid hunting or furtaker license or a valid SGL permit signed by its holder.

Thus I have no problem with Rule 23, it is with the rewriting of Rule 5 that I have a problem with and it can be corrected by adopting the language used in proposed paragraph 23.

The first question I would have is why the difference in language? I suspect bureaucratic inertia, i.e The Game Commission wanted to adopt rule 23 to increase revenue (While giving the appearance of providing free permits) but someone decided that rule (5) had to be changed if proposed Rule 23 was adopted so that rule 5 also applies to "Hiking" (presently only applies to biking and riding animals) but failed to change the last phase to match what was adopted in Rule 23. You can make the argument that the reason the last phase of Rule 5 was NOT changed was that the Commission sees no real difference in terminology between the two phases. On the other hand, Rule 5 REQUIRES participation in "Hunting. Trapping or Fishing" but Rule 23 requires only a possession of a "valid hunting or furtaker license or a valid SGL permit". Thus mere possession of a hunting license is all that is required by Rule 23, but actual participating in "Hunting" is required under Rule 5.

Now, the State Game Code, Title 34 defines hunting as:

"Hunt" or "hunting." Any act or furtherance of the taking or killing of any game or wildlife, or any part or product thereof, and includes, but is not limited to, chasing, tracking, calling, pursuing, lying in wait, trapping, shooting at, including shooting at a game or wildlife facsimile, or wounding with any weapon or implement, or using any personal property, including dogs, or the property of others, of any nature, in furtherance of any of these purposes, or aiding, abetting or conspiring with another person in that purpose.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=34&div=0&chpt=1&sctn=2&subsctn=0

Thus my comment that "Scouting" would be an "act..in furtherance of any of these purposes, or aiding, abetting or conspiring with another person in that purpose." and thus "Hunting" for under the Act AND the Game Commission Regulations. I would prefer Rule (5) match rule (23) but given the above definition. "Hunting" I see no requirement that a person hunting has to have a weapon.

In the only case I can find on the Difinition of "Hunting" In Pennsylvania, a Common Pleas Case out of Greene County, the Court made the following statement:

Black's Law Dictionary defines hunting as "the act of pursuing and taking wild animals; the chase." Random House Dictionary gives some further meaning to the word, as being "to search a place thoroughly, to scour an area in pursuit of game." Thus, it is readily apparent that using an automobile to violate the provisions of this act does not have to be a use transforming it into the hunters' weapons-carrier, with their rifles bristling from the windows as it cruises along the byroads of an area, but rather, the legislative intent is violated when the car is used in such an obvious and overt manner as to make its use an integral part of the search, the scouring of the area, if you will, to seek out and locate the prey desired. The obvious and overt use of the vehicle exists here where the hunters, by their cruising along at a slower than usual rate of speed, alternately parking or stopping on the highway for the principal or primary purpose of visually locating game, coupled with their hastily parking in the highway, to facilitate the conquest of that game with their weaponry.

1973 Pa. Dist. & Cnty. Dec. LEXIS 16, *; 68 Pa. D. & C.2d 93, **, Commonwealth v. Beeren no. 216 of 1973.

Now that case involved the use of an Automobile to hunt from, which is illegal under Pennsylvania law. The Key is the Court defined Hunting as including "the scouring of the area, if you will, to seek out and locate the prey desired". Actual possession of weapons was NOT required under that decision, driving the car on a public road was sufficient to be used in the hunt.

Now Rule 6 already bans Bikes on Roads NOT open to Automobiles &quot 6) Ride a nonmotorized vehicle, conveyance or animal on roads open to foot travel only." thus Rule 5 must be viewed with rule 6, but present rule 5 does NOT including Hiking, but the proposed Rule 5 does. Given the above case, we have a strong case that Hunting includes scouting without a weapon and thus all you would need is a hunting license to go hiking at the times the Game Commission is proposed banning hiking. It is only a Common Pleas Court case but it is the best we can do given the definition of Hunting in the Game Code. Hunting includes Hiking and unless you are doing something otherwise banned under the hunting code (i.e. using a vehicle to hunt, in my opinion riding a bike is illegal if hunting for you can NOT hunt from a Vehicle, but if you park the bike that is like parking a car to hunt that is legal, but you can NOT use the bike or a car to scout for game, but it is perfectly legal to scout while hiking).

[JPZenger]

9. I never thought of hikers buying hunting permits

Thanks for posting the full proposed regs. I never thought of the concept of hikers buying hunting permits.

A legal requirement that hikers meet the orange requirement would address legitimate safety issues, and would be much less onerous than a ban on hiking - especially during April and May.

The hiking group I belonged to never went out during peak deer season on Game Lands. Sundays was the one exception, when hunting is illegal. However, there have been recent proposals to remove the Sunday hunting ban in PA.

There were some legitimate concerns about mountain bikers causing erosion damage because they didn't stay on trails. I guess a permit system was a way to try to go after the people creating the problems - because the same people who cause the problems would be the same ones who wouldn't get a permit.

I think part of the problem is that the number of hunters may be decreasing, and the Game Commission's funds have not been increasing as fast as they would like. Likewise, the number of people who fish has been decreasing. People are spending much more time indoors.

[happyslug]

10. I do not think it has to do with decrease outdoor activities.

It has to do with people having less time to spend with others. If you are working long hours for multiple employers you have reduced time to spend with families and friends. Hunting has always been a group activity done with long term friends and relatives. If you do not have time to maintain those relationships you stop participating. Thus the decline in hunting (Another factor is the since 1920 more people have lived in urban areas as opposed to rural areas. People maintain a family tradition for one or two generations, thus hunting peaked in the 1960s roughly two generations after families had left the farm. Now since the 1960s those same families are now three or four generations from the farm and thus have very few friends and relatives in such rural areas and this has lead to a decline in hunting. Just a comment that why hunting has been in declined).

[happyslug]

11. And "Hunting" does not always require someone to have a weapon...

If you are "Scouting" for a place to hunt, that is "Hunting" even if you do NOT have a weapon. Technically today, a person "Scouting" does NOT even need to have a hunting license. If this proposed regulation is passed, people may have to have their hunting license on them to show that they are "Hunting" not "Hiking". As to weapons, you can claim you were "scouting" for a place to hunt and thus did not bring your weapon with you.

It would look a bit more convincing if you had a weapon commonly used to hunt what ever is in season, but you can argue you were just scouting for a place to hunt and thus "Hunting" and you have your hunting license to prove it. You tell the game warden that you went out without a weapon for you plan to come back with a weapon to hunt if you find a good place to hunt in, thus you were "Scouting" for a place to hunt NOT hiking.

If you decide to carry a weapon to look more convincing, remember Shotguns are legal for Deer, groundhogs, starlings and turkey. A cheap 20 gauge single barrel that you have in your backpack would supply the evidence you were "Hunting" with a "weapon" (If you store the shotgun in your backpack make sure it is EMPTY, carry a couple of shells in your front pocket to show you have ammon for the shotgun). You could buy a single barrel 20 gauge shotgun NEW for $85 and if you opt for used you could get one a lot cheaper:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Harrington-Richardson-Shotguns.cfm?cat_id=627

The more I think about it, the more I would just lean to just claiming you were scouting, I suspect most game commission officers would prefer that lie then you carrying a weapon you have never fired. If you decide to carry a weapon, I would avoid a pistol. Pistols are small and easy to carry, but less then ideal for hunting (and require more skill then a shotgun or rifle to use effectively). In Pennsylvania only revolvers are permitted for hunting purposes (along with the few single shots pistols). A shotgun is the best all around hunting weapon. you can find some cheap used one for as low as $50 (I may want to question if there are safe to fire, but if your intention is to hike not hunt who cares if it fires?). If a game warden wants to fire it, that his problem (They should know better and most will see through this charade quickly and endorse it for they know where they pay is coming from i.e. the license fee). I suspect if this rule is passed, as long as you have license you will be viewed as "Hunting" even if you have nothing to hunt with.

Just a comment that given I suspect the push for this rule is REVENUE driven not driven by a desire to restrict hiking. Thus if this rule is passed, just buy a license and never carry a weapon, just claim you are scouting for a place to hunt whatever is in season (and that can include biking on roads open to biking). You will clearly NOT be poaching (no Weapon) which is a major concern for the Game Commission. You have a license and thus must be hunting and it is clear you are NOT hunting anything out of season for you will have no weapon. That you are hiking is unimportant for hiking is part of hunting.

Every time I look at these proposed regulations (and I have caught such proposals before over the last ten or so years), it has always been viewed as a way to increase revenue NOT to restrict hiking. Like many government agency, the Game Commission needs money and our state Legislature does NOT want to help them, even when it comes to non-game animals. Thus the desire to look for additional revenue, not only to help game animals but non-game animals that the Game Commission does try to protect.

[Jagar123]

13. The Playgrounds

I hunt, bike, boat, fish, hike, climb, camp, kayak, horseback, run, and appreciate the outdoors.
I served our country and our rights.

DOES EVERYONE THAT GOES ON PA. GAME LANDS KNOW AMERICANS AND FOREIGNERS CAN SHOOT SEVEN DAYS A WEEK ON THEM! CHECK THE LAW. You need a hunting license. Yet as a hunter we give way to all. The good old boy , come on over. We should too

HUNTING IS ALSO YEAR ROUND. YES SUNDAYS ALSO. LOOK PA.SEASONS. Some will argue this but I can hunt something almost everyday but a few. Even most Sundays check starlings and English sparrows. I don't but could. Poor birds!!lol

Today I was exercising my right to target shoot on Pa. Game lands 156. I spotted a man 200 yards aggressively approaching me with a walking stick. Face to face in a loud and angry voice he asked , do I know what day it is? My reply was simply, Sunday! Now that I was confronted by a irrational individual, I had to asked him. Do you know where you are? Game lands! I answered for him. Then in his small fit of rage, he stated there are people walking out here! I asked again, do you know where you are at? He then started chewing me out, jestering ( gesturing miss spelled for visual effect) that his walking stick could be a weapon used to beat me into a submission of his right to a Sunday walk on Pa. Game lands. I then informed him that there was a game warden up the hill less than 200ft. from the back side of my shooting range. He then walked off in the same direction he advanced from. After waiting for a visit from the warden for the second time today. I observed the warden drive off the property. By the way, his first visit was a check on the safety of my range. After a check on my license and range, he gave his approval. I asked if he would like to take a few shots. He chuckled and declined.

This is not a uncommon thing out around the game lands of Mt Gretna, Pennsylvania. I have been confronted several times this past hunting season. Lets list the unrealistic encounters, 24 trail bicyclers, 4 horse back riders, 11 dog walkers, and 5 hiker. Oh! I do have more enjoyable chance meeting, than the unrealistic encounters. Most introductions are from dozens of representatives of each group. Leaving both the hunter and outdoor enthuses refreshed in life. All these encounters have engendered the hunters to nickname, area 156 THE PLAYGROUNDS. Why you ask? This is due to each group thinks it's their personal back yard.

Thoughts;
Q. Why would a person in their right mind, aggressively confront a hunter or group of hunters On Game Lands?
(Hunters Thoughts) We have guns in our hands!

Q. Why would a herd of illegal bicyclers Cuss out a pair of hunters, do to 1 out of 4 bird dog barked twice at the herd of mountain bike trail riders cutting by well marked Game L. Trails mark foot traffic only!
(Hunters T) Are they stupid, picking a fight! Do their group # provide the aggressive right?
We have guns in our hands!!

Q. Why would a woman dressed in buckskin riding a tan horse be startled and cuss at a hunter during deer season on G.L.s?
(H.T) Hey lady did you forget your stuffed reindeer antlers for your head today?
We have guns!!!

Q. Why act like you (the hiker ) would win a battle. Your walking stick against,, my gun in hand?
(H.T.) I have a gun!!!!

My point is easy, most of us ( hunters ) are Easy going people. We are outside enjoying it just like the majority of hikers, horse backers, bicyclers, dog owners, climbers, and outdoor enthuses.
If walking on a bike trail, I give right a way to the bikers.
If running on a walking trail I am cautious of the walker
If hiking on a horse trail I give way to the horsemen
WHY DON'T YOU SHOW US THE SAME .
PLEASE WEAR ORANGE ON GAME LANDS.
WE HAVE GUNS!!! IF WE WANTED TO HURT SOMEONE WE COULD!!! IT IS THE LAST THING A GOOD HUNTER WANTS!!!WE WOULD BE THE FIRST NEIGHBOR YOU WOULD CALL FOR PROTECTION? AND WE WOULD COME?
WHY COME ON MY DESIGNATED AREA AND NOT OBEY THE SAME RULES AND LAWS I DO.

By the way the Pennsylvania Game commission or game wardens , they tell us the hunters to be courteous to all you others, so just because we give or back down in the fields it's because we can. We are better than the people that can't share.
We don't mind you out on Game lands , we are always looking for you so no one gets hurt, a good hunter is always looking out for others in line.
But please if you or someone you know likes to be on game lands and push hunters buttons, ask them to think about it. Are they really with in their rights ...

[Jagar123]

14. Dear dog owners

This is to all of you none hunting dog walker, exercisers ..

Don't think hunter don't know why you exercise your dogs out on game lands.
It's because you don't have to clean up their pooh!
Every other public area you do.

It's ok we laugh as we clean the shit from our boots!
Just another law that doesn't apply to you..the BMW Drivers..lol

I also don't think we the hunters , find it cool when you bitch us out for our hunting dogs upsetting your dog or dogs. Most hunting dogs are not aggressive. They are out doing the hunting thing.. Sorry my pair of german shorthairs got into it with you German shepherds . I think mine are out matched. But they are waiting for the toy poodles.. Lol

This was all in fun!

I am glad to see your pets run free like they should be able. Enjoy I do..
I love seeing them be alive...

[Jagar123]

15. Breaking it down

The ban was a nice thought. Like most new laws it has holes. I believe the intentions of the game commission was to force the majority outdoor enthuses (that don't hunt) to take the hunter safety course . This would help to stop the meaningless confrontations between hunters and other groups.
It was cheaper to get a lincense than the permit. So who wouldn't go that way. After taking the hunter safety course all would understand why the safety of all is continuously stressed. Giving clarity to out of the hunting box groups. They now would understand we are watching out for other hunters, and hikers at all times. Of course their are extremist in all groups which thankfully is usually a small minority. I would like to put them all in a small room together for ever. These folks in all groups will always fight with others, you can't change it. But, the large majority of us are level headed. And it was about safety over all. The game wardens have really earned the title PEACE KEEPER! This has become one of their top roles between hunters, bicyclers, horse backers, hikers, and so on.
Thats not right, one of the wardens main job is babysitting the children that can't share and be courteous to each others. What a shame..

I recently had a run into a game warden where I was at fault. They are outstanding individuals and some of the best outdoor enthuses you will ever encounter. After excepting my dues, i am still always at awe in a professional manner. I talk to several a year and always find them outstanding. A credit to our society. Maybe they should run our state. They saved their departments and in doing so are growing in many ways, but land. Imagine if they would have been in charge of the states finances, and would have had control of all public land at the time. Heck we might have been getting a check from our state just like Alaska does..lol..
And as a outdoor enthuses I think these dedicated men and women have been outstanding and a cut above all of us..
How would you like that role.. Adult babysitters.

Now where the game commission tried to keep the peace. Once again the politicians don't care.

Here I go.
The game commission was pretty close to broke a few years back and our politicians did nothing.
(if gone we will sell the land for condos! lol ,, and grab the cash)
Yet the individuals in the game commission after beating their head against walls, on how to keep their jobs and over all department afloat. Came up with let's, let them frack on the lands. They went to the politicians that where like whatever , you pain in my side organization . Do it go away.
So the game commission made a great investment on a good idea at possibly the high of fracking.
They saved our Game lands, their jobs and so on.

Well, where there is money there is crooks trying to take it.

Instead of opening all public land to franking, allowing Pennsylvania to reap the rewards, they never got the point of the game commission. Shame on them!
Also they didn't understand how much $ would becoming.
Not until the game commission that has understood there are more hunters ,it is growing and they now have the funds to purchase more land for all people to enjoy. MORE!!!
The problem was, a law only allowing them to purchase land for way under fair rates..
So they went and asked the politicians, could you raise or lift that law..
We can improve the outdoor activity situation..
Are you seeing the light yet...

Politician-----you have money!!!!!!!!!!

Ok get rid of the game commission collect their money .... F the people
That's you too.. The biker, hiker, horse backer, climber , hunter, all of us..

Stir up these organizations against each other .. Let's get them fighting..
NO IT'S TIME TO UNITE.
Wake up!!!
Now that's the cat out of the bag!!!!!
Ask yourself, outdoor folks, where is the money from public land franking gone?
Have you seen new trails or land bought, ya!!!! What a kick in your teeth..

I the hunter know where mine is going. The game commission keeps us informed---
(Habitat improvement, more pheasants, so on) jobs created

Does your politician do that for you the hiker, biker, and so on????

They not only would steal the money they could careless about the land. The land would go next seeing it's worth a real fortune.

WAKE UP AND SHAKE HANDS with OTHER OUTDOORS MEN! LOOK EACH OTHER IN THE EYES AND UNITE FOR THE GOOD OF ALL.

GATHER AND VOTE FOR THE GOOD ONES. OH GOOD LUCK!

For the minority nuts in each group. Please Don't attack me I exercise my rights to do as many activities outside that we the people can come up with. I love what's been giving to us.. Life!