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Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:57 AM

OMG, what terrible news to wake up to

I wish I'd just stayed asleep. I wish this was just a terrible dream.

Don't know what's going to happen now.

As the Chinese curse goes, 'May you live in interesting times'.

This is worse than bad election results because less reversible.


87 replies, 9564 views

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Reply OMG, what terrible news to wake up to (Original post)
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 OP
pkdu Jun 2016 #1
Corporate666 Jun 2016 #10
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #11
pkdu Jun 2016 #12
Corporate666 Jun 2016 #13
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #15
Corporate666 Jun 2016 #24
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #48
BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #52
Ken Burch Jun 2016 #22
Corporate666 Jun 2016 #26
Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #29
Scootaloo Jun 2016 #53
merrily Jun 2016 #33
RelativelyJones Jun 2016 #36
merrily Jun 2016 #38
Ken Burch Jun 2016 #41
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #49
Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #61
PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #54
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #56
truebrit71 Jun 2016 #66
Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #28
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #47
Ken Burch Jun 2016 #19
love_katz Jun 2016 #65
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #69
Ken Burch Jun 2016 #70
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #71
Ken Burch Jun 2016 #72
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #78
T_i_B Jun 2016 #60
Warpy Jun 2016 #2
swhisper1 Jun 2016 #3
MADem Jun 2016 #4
still_one Jun 2016 #5
Mojorabbit Jun 2016 #6
PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #55
MADem Jun 2016 #7
Monk06 Jun 2016 #8
flor-de-jasmim Jun 2016 #9
ellenrr Jun 2016 #14
PADemD Jun 2016 #23
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #40
PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #58
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #30
BooScout Jun 2016 #16
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #17
love_katz Jun 2016 #18
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #57
Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #44
Name removed Jun 2016 #31
BooScout Jun 2016 #42
Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #46
geardaddy Jun 2016 #63
BooScout Jun 2016 #73
truebrit71 Jun 2016 #67
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #34
BooScout Jun 2016 #43
GoneOffShore Jun 2016 #81
Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #20
BooScout Jun 2016 #25
Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #27
BooScout Jun 2016 #32
Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #39
BooScout Jun 2016 #45
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #59
Name removed Jun 2016 #35
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #37
BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #50
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #79
geardaddy Jun 2016 #64
BooScout Jun 2016 #74
geardaddy Jun 2016 #83
underpants Jun 2016 #21
BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #51
greatauntoftriplets Jun 2016 #62
Boudica the Lyoness Jun 2016 #68
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #75
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #76
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #77
GoneOffShore Jun 2016 #80
Dworkin Jun 2016 #82
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #84
Dworkin Jun 2016 #85
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #86
Dworkin Jun 2016 #87

Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:59 AM

1. and will lead to another Scottish referendum...sadly. nt

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Response to pkdu (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:06 AM

10. Why is it sad that Scots want to leave the UK?

People wanting sovereignty is bad? Everyone should band together and stop with their pesky diversity and differing cultures and just submit to a homogenous one-world government?

Scotland has been inching closer to a UK exit for years. It almost passed the last time around, and it would have passed the next time with or without a Brexit. The only difference is that it will provide a reason to have another exit vote sooner. But that exit vote was always going to pass.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:13 AM

11. There is a lot in between 'homogeneous one -world government' and xenophobic Balkanization

And the break-up of the UK is not all that may happen: the economy may go down the drain (indicators are already bad: pound at lowest level since 1985; FTSE down 480 points) and the racists here may run amok.

Imagine that right now you're living in Texas or South Carolina, and that your state has just voted to secede from the USA because they hate the more liberal provisions of the federal government. Our situation is not QUITE as bad at this; but it's much more like that than like countries becoming independent of empires.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:19 AM

12. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:22 AM

13. There is no xenophobic balkanization going on in the UK.

I am not sure where you live, but where I live, the biggest issues people have are unelected technocrats holding authority over a country they don't live in and where they have zero responsibility to the voters.

As far as immigrants, I have been in the UK for 40+ years and it has always been a diverse nation and there's never been a problem with that. What people DO have a problem with is long wait times at hospitals, inability to get their children into schools, house prices that mean most will never have the chance to own a home, and a distinct lack of jobs.

If you look at what the citizenry charged Cameron with in the renegotiation with the UK, he pretty much failed at it - and the EU said "and don't dare come asking for more, that's all you're getting!"

...and that just exacerbated the existing problem and feelings that led to the dissatisfaction with the EU in the first place.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:01 AM

15. Actually IMO quite a lot of it is...

that many parts of the UK ARE worse off than in the early 70s. Not because of the EU, but because of Thatcherism. That, not the EU, caused 'long wait times at hospitals, inability to get their children into schools, house prices that mean most will never have the chance to own a home, and a distinct lack of jobs.' And the RW media managed to convince just enough people that the EU and the migrants were to blame for it. And now the far-right are chortling and planning a full-scale attack. Never liked Cameron, but god knows what we'll get now! And no, I wouldn't blame Scotland if they pulled out.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:55 AM

24. Come on...

blaming the problems that have occurred in the past 5 or so years on a leader who has been dead for 3 years and out of office for over 25 years is silly.

The problems the Brexit voters are facing are manifestations of what has been going on in recent years in the UK. And more than half the country voted for Brexit. Blaming it on a number of easily led racists who were fooled by RW media is just refusing to acknowledge what is plain as day - and that is that the UK voters want to leave the EU. The vote had huge turnout, and it was a clean vote. The people have spoken.

As for Scotland, again, them pulling out has never been anything to do with Brexit. They have been talking about leaving for YEARS. Long before UK Brexit was even an idea, and long before the UK was even part of the EU. All the Brexit vote does is pave the way for another Scottish independence vote.

Ironically, the issue Scotland has with the UK (let's face it - their problem is with England) is that they feel they are being ruled by a far away place who has little concern for their needs and wants. Which is exactly the driving factor behind the Brexit vote.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #24)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:12 AM

48. Blaming the problems of the past 5 years on the Tory successors to Thatcher is not silly

The Tories are screwing up the NHS and schools, and the right have then fooled too many people into thinking this is because of pressures of immigration. Ironically, it's the voters in the low-immigration areas who are more pro-Leave; it's not so much personal experience, as fearmongering from the right wing press that has persuaded them their area will suffer soon.

Over half of polled Leave voters gave immigration as their chief reason for voting Leave. It's not about 'being ruled from far away'. It's about the movement of labour.

And now we're stuck without worker protections, and without a rule that says we have to stay in the European Convention on Human Rights. That'll high on the Leave list of things to get rid of.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #24)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:37 AM

52. How silly is it

when a lot of the systemic problems that we see in the US today are direct or indirect results of policies under Thatcher's buddy, Ronnie Raygun?

Not so silly at all, IMO.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:53 AM

22. Everything listed in the sentence that begins with the words "What people DO have a problem with"...

 

...is a product of the economic changes caused by Thatcherism...NOT by the EU or by the arrival of immigrants.
There is no reason to think that leaving the EU will produce solutions to any of those problems. It's not even clear that Farage WANTS to solve them...he just wants to stand up for a fantasy notion of "British exceptionalism"to borrow a phrase used for another country I can think of).

It is going to be a very difficult fight now, possibly a hopeless one, to stop the UK being pushed, by Boris Johnson(the likely next pm now that Cameron has resigned)in cahoots with Nigel Farage and his forward-into-the-past movement(We might call it Faragism-Benjamin Buttonism)pushing relentlessly to drive the UK in to their notion of a glorious past "before that lot came here"...a glorious past that never actually existed, because life was relentlessly miserable for the vast majority of the British population from the dawn of time until the election of the Attlee and Wilson governments.

Britain has nothing to gain from becoming a more closed-off country. And if I were you, I'd be very suspicious about what "regulations" Boris and Nigel will be trying to get rid of(I put those two together because it's very likely, I think, that if Boris calls a snap election after becoming PM he will get the Tories into some sort of electoral pact with UKIP...an arrangement that will significantly reduce the UKIP vote share at the next election but probably lead to the election of many more UKIP MPs, since UKIP would be spared Tory opponents in a fair amount of winnable seats in exchange for UKIP not nominating candidates in Tory-Labour marginals or the tiny remaining handful of Tory-LibDem marginals) There's no reason to assume they won't target regulations protecting workers' rights, the right to a free trial(something vastly strengthened by the EU, as any Northern Irish person tried under UK law since 1922 can tell you) and environmental laws. It's silly to think they'd really let it go at the regulations dictating the shapes of fruit and things like that(regulations that were always a trivially small part of EU policy).

I assume you are a Leave supporter. Well, you got your way. Now, you have a special responsibility to speak out against and help protest against any increase in anti-immigrant ugliness that may occur. The situation is now totally changed, and some people will probably take the Leave victory as license to do what they didn't dare to do before. You say Britain is a non-xenophobic country...now those of you who fought for the Leave victory have an obligation to do all you can to make sure that remains the case.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #22)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:08 AM

26. That's just crazy talk

Thatcher has been gone for over 25 years. The problems Brits are experiencing on the ground are new problems that have gotten substantially worse in the last few years. Brits don't tend to fall for the 'blaming the past' move, and reaching back 25 years to lecture a foreign country about how they shouldn't believe their lyin' eyes and it's actually a dead woman from the 80's that caused their problems is going to elicit rolled eyes and immediate dismissal of everything else you're saying.

I live here and the fact that the jobs still exist, but are mostly all occupied by immigrants, isn't lost on people. Especially blue collar people who have seen the changes with their own eyes over the years. Along with long wait times at hospitals and schools and skyrocketing house prices. Brits are patient people and willing to suffer a little today for a better tomorrow - which is largely why they've stuck with the EU for so long. But the EU has become more oriented towards consolidating power over the years and less interested in the needs and desires of the individual member states. That Cameron was elected with a mandate to go to the table with the EU is proof that the UK tried to fix this. And Cameron's mandate had nothing to do with kicking out foreigners or ending immigration. It was mostly about governance, autonomy, regulation and such. That the UK said "piss off" wasn't lost on voters.

More than half the country aren't bigoted racists. It's low hanging fruit to dismiss such a groundbreaking vote that way. It clearly goes much deeper than ignorant country folk being sold a lie by a snake oil salesman of a politician.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:26 AM

29. "Thatcher has been gone for over 25 years"...so has Reagan.

 

Would you suggest that Reaganism is NOT responsible for much of the decline of the US middle class in the last 30 years?

If Reaganism is still alive and well and wreaking havoc, by definition, so is Thatcherism.

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #29)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:43 AM

53. The culprit in both cases is neoliberalism

 

And as an ideology it is not glued to one personality or party or period.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:35 AM

33. Thatcher is different from Thatcherism.

For better or worse, or both, Reaganomics is very much with us and Roosevelt's influence lasted a half century after he left office. Indeed, depending upon one's point of view, "Rooseveltism" is still with us. No, neither Reagan and Roosevelt should shoulder all the blame (or get all the praise) for the fact that no one changed or eliminated the things they put in motion. However, it's certainly not insane to reference Reaganomics simply because he left office in 1988. (I guess I could have included "LBJism," but I think "LBJism" was merely more "Rooseveltism."

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:43 AM

36. Absolutely agree

To chalk this vote up to racism is ceding the ground to dangerous loons like Farage. If the left is wise they will push this as an opportunity to build a meaningful economy for people who are not just working in the "services" sector. The UK is quite an ethnically diverse society. For most people this is not a vote to change that.

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Response to RelativelyJones (Reply #36)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:46 AM

38. I hope the UK's left is both wise and able to do what you wish.

The right does not excel at much beyond making the rich richer, but it does excel at demonizing the left.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:49 AM

41. Thatcher herself is dead, but that isn't the point:

 

None of her successors as prime minister(including the two supposedly Labour prime ministers)broke with her economic policies in any significant way. It was those relentlessly neoliberal policies(including the expanded emphasis on "free trade" and "market values" and the near-complete deregulation of the financial sector)combined with the acceptance even by "New Labour" that the north of England(along with Scotland and, to a significant degree Wales)should be left to slowly die economically in the name of massive short-term gains for the 1% that are the true causes of the conditions that drove a lot of basically good people to vote for a simplistic, xenophobic solution out of sheer despairing rage.

BTW, your man Farage has said he simply wants to reduce future EU immigration. Doing that, by itself won't do anything to get open up the jobs current immigrants are holding, at least not anywhere nearly in time for the "native-born British workers"btw, are you willing to accept that British-born BAME-short for "Black, Asian, and Minority Ethnic" people in the UK, for the benefit of my fellow Yanks-Britons count as "native-born?)to get a shot at those jobs. Realistically, aren't we really talking here about "voluntary repatriation" of immigrants living in Britain? And isn't "voluntary repatriation" really a euphemism for white thugs terrorizing immigrant neighborhoods(as the BNP and the EDL, and their predecessors in the National Front have done for decades now)in a relentless campaign to scare those people into "going back where they bloody well came from"?

Isn't it time for Nigel to come clean and admit he's not averse to things like that?

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:16 AM

49. "the jobs still exist, but are mostly all occupied by immigrants"

No, that's not a fact. It's a bald lie. And that is the kind of xenophobic bullshit that Farage spouts.

"More than half the country aren't bigoted racists. " But that doesn't stop bigoted racists spreading lies about immigrants having most of the jobs.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #49)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 07:12 AM

61. "It's a bald lie" could describe many of this poster's contributions.

 

But that doesn't stop bigoted racists spreading lies about immigrants having most of the jobs.


And, I might add the UK's notoriously lowbrow, gutter press, owned in part by Rupert Murdock.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:51 AM

54. in the last few years?

You mean since the conservatives got in? And yet the people voted them in again.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:54 AM

56. Yes, a dead woman from the 80s DID cause a lot of our problems...

And her successors are trying to carry it on.

And I'm British, and remember the 80s, and believe my own lying eyes! Cuts in education and the NHS and housing; the destruction of British industry; the deliberate use of job insecurity as a weapon for the public: these come from Thatcher and from other Prime Ministers, even Labour ones, failing to fully reverse the policies - and in the case of recent Ministers, including some of the most prominent Brexiters, increasing them

If you think our future is safe in the hands of Boris and Gove and Duncan-Smith and Farage, well, I wish you (and the rest of us) luck.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #26)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 12:33 AM

66. I'm sorry, but that is almost entirely total bollocks.

 

Blue collar workers have been pissed on by Thatcherist policies for donkeys years. The conservatives have implemented strict austerity for the working class with malevolent glee, and pointed to Johnny Foreigner as the culprit. Right-wing papers fanned the flames, and scared elderly white people did as they were instructed and told the EU to get bent.

Wait times at hospitals and sky-rocketing home prices have fuck all to do with the EU and everything to do with Tory policies.

Thatcher thankfully has been dead for years, but the stench of her rotting policies continues unabated.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #22)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:21 AM

28. Excellent analysis...and this sums it up:

 

There is no reason to think that leaving the EU will produce solutions to any of those problems. It's not even clear that Farage WANTS to solve them...he just wants to stand up for a fantasy notion of "British exceptionalism"to borrow a phrase used for another country I can think of).

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:58 AM

47. Surely the issues you list arise from the action or inaction of successive UK governments

Including, to some extent, the Blairite ones.









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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:40 AM

19. Nobody is calling for "one-world government"

 

And the last thing the world needs is for the UK and the western part of Europe to become just as nationalist as the eastern Europe and the Balkans.

Nationalism very rarely leads to anything but reactionary states based on the notion that only one race, ethnicity or religion can ever truly be "real _____s". It does not lead to inclusion, democratic values or any real sense of human solidarity.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:56 PM

65. This! Exactly.

Too often "nationalism" actually means a blind support of and unquestioning attitude towards racism, bigotry, and xenophobia, saber rattling, and violence. Perfect description, Ken Burch.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #19)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 02:49 AM

69. That didn't stop Sarah Palin attacking that strawman with death by English abuse, though

“Good on you for ignoring all the fear mongering from special interest globalists who tend to aim for that apocalyptic One World Government that dissolves a nation’s self-determination and sovereignty… the EU being a One World Government mini-me,” Palin wrote/sputtered on Facebook. “America can learn an encouraging lesson from this. It is time to dissolve political bands that connect us to agendas not in our best interest. May UN shackles be next on the chopping block.”

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/06/sarah-palin-goes-full-alex-jones-and-praises-uk-for-defying-apocalyptic-one-world-government/

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #69)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 02:56 AM

70. Yeah. Another serving of locally-sourced word salad from Our Sarah. n/t.

 

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #70)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 03:04 AM

71. My friends, that is Authentic Frontier Gibberish! (nt)

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #71)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 03:20 AM

72. Someone should push for the EU to recognize it as an official language. n/t.

 

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #69)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 01:20 PM

78. OMG, all we need is to be used as examples by both Trump AND Palin!!!!

I feel ill now.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 07:02 AM

60. Because Scotland wants to trade

Whereas the English either don't know or don't care about the trade ramifications.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:02 AM

2. It's likely to be a rough ride for everybody for at least the next week or so

Dow futures are down over 650 and have remained so for over an hour. The pound has declined to its lowest level since 1985, maybe I can afford a visit now (how's that for a calamity?). Gold is up because any big change is good news to a gold bug.

After that, the panic will pass when the sky again resolutely refuses to fall and all the changes will be slow motion and mostly irritating.

It will be interesting to see how quickly the Scots come up with another resolution to quit the UK.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:07 AM

3. that is a huge choice for scotland . They should do what is in their own interest

 

EU is good for some countries

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:08 AM

4. The pound is down to a buck thirty three--that's as weak as I have seen it since the seventies. nt

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:16 AM

5. Since it will take a couple of years for the BREXIT to be realized, maybe things will

stabilize in a few weeks.

I agree, this is bad for the whole world

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Response to still_one (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:32 AM

6. I hope so

I saved for a trip to England for a long time and will arrive there July 18. I hope there will not be chaos and that this does not cause hardship for the citizens of the UK.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:53 AM

55. itll be fine

Nothing will change in the short term

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Response to still_one (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:33 AM

7. They'll pull a Norway, I'm guessing. Keep what they like and leave the rest....

The process of leaving the EU will take years
A Brexit vote is not legally binding, and there are a few ways it could theoretically be blocked or overturned. However, as the BBC notes, "it would be seen as political suicide to go against the will of the people as expressed in a referendum."

Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union establishes the procedures for a member state to withdraw from the EU. It requires the member state to notify the EU of its withdrawal and obliges the EU to then try to negotiate a withdrawal agreement with that state.

A Brexit vote, however, does not represent that formal notification. That notification could take place within days — for example, when EU member countries meet for a summit that is scheduled for June 28 to 29. Or British officials might wait a few months to pull the trigger.

Once Britain invokes Article 50, it will have a two-year window in which to negotiate a new treaty to replace the terms of EU membership. Britain and EU leaders would have to hash out issues like trade tariffs, migration, and the regulation of everything from cars to agriculture.....



http://www.vox.com/2016/6/23/12021222/brexit-what-happens-next

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:36 AM

8. The result over the next two years could be a return to the common market model perhaps with

a Euro currancy mediating new national currancies

One thing is for sure the idea of a Brussels based super government dictating the economic and social polices of member states is over

Can't say I disagree with that

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:39 AM

9. I think that is an Irish curse, FWIW

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:27 AM

14. I am very surprised - and a question

as I said in another post, I am American and not well-informed about brexit.
but trying to change that.

What are your thoughts re does the refugee crisis play into the result?

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Response to ellenrr (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:54 AM

23. Interesting arguments at VOX.

Brexit: the 7 most important arguments for Britain to leave the EU

Although the "leave" campaign has often focused on emotional arguments about immigration, there are in fact many reasons those in favor of leaving believe it will benefit the UK. They come from across the political spectrum, and some of the arguments even contradict others. Here are seven of the most significant.

Argument 1: The EU threatens British sovereignty

Argument 2: The EU is strangling the UK in burdensome regulations

Argument 3: The EU entrenches corporate interests and prevents radical reforms


http://www.vox.com/2016/6/22/11992106/brexit-arguments

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Response to PADemD (Reply #23)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:48 AM

40. Oddly enough

The Daily Mail has been printing variations on that list for weeks , almost on a daily basis it seems.

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Response to PADemD (Reply #23)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:56 AM

58. ah yes those 'burdensome regulations'

Like protecting the environment, keeping beaches clean, protecting human rights -,be good to see the back of those

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Response to ellenrr (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:31 AM

30. Very much so in my experience

Sadly, immigration & fear of the other , was key.

UKIP and the noxious Farage made sure of that.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:13 AM

16. Well this just totally sucks....

Boris?! Dear god, that crazy man is going to be PM. The FTSE and the pound is in free fall.....and all because the EU wrongly gets the blame for what Thatcher wreaked on the UK.

This is just freaking scary.

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Response to BooScout (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:21 AM

17. YES..

and you've diagnosed IMO much of the problem quite accurately: the EU wrongly gets the blame for what Thatcher wreaked on the UK. With a lot of encouragement from the RW media.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:38 AM

18. How awful.

Sounds like some of your politicians have been taking instruction from our fright wing politicians. They own the media and they count on our citizens to have faulty or short term memories. The fright wing politicians tanked our economy, then turned around and smeared our current president and his policies for the damage. One would hope that people would see that electing people who want to destroy the government would be totally stupid and needlessly damaging, but these scum are too good at shifting blame by pasting the target for people's anger onto hated and feared others. It's maddening how easily the liars get away with it. You have my deepest sympathies.

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Response to love_katz (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:55 AM

57. Some of the fright wing media owners, e.g. the Murdoch gang, are the same in both countries!

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:54 AM

44. Spot on. Just as Reaganism continues to destroy the US middle class 30 years on, Thatcherism is

 

still decimating Britain's working and lower-middle classes.

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Response to BooScout (Reply #16)


Response to Name removed (Reply #31)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:51 AM

42. I most certainly can blame Thatcher....

She destroyed generations all over the UK. The UK is shaped by Thatcherism. Generations have been lost because of privatisation. The long lines and waits of the NHS and the lack of affordable housing aren't the result of immigrants, it's the result of policies put in place by Thatcher and subsequent Tory governments like Cameron's that have whittled away steadily at the fabric of the British economy and society.

Nationalism, trickle down economics, populism, tax cuts, privatisation, tearing down the unions....all lies right smack in the lap of Thatcher and those such as Cameron and Farage that promote her policies decades later.

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Response to BooScout (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:56 AM

46. Hear, hear. SO SPOT ON!

 



"...all lies right smack in the lap of Thatcher and those such as Cameron and Farage that promote her policies decades later."

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Response to BooScout (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 07:05 PM

63. More so expressly English nationalism, though.

The SNP and Plaid Cymru urged their people to vote Remain.

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Response to geardaddy (Reply #63)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 03:42 AM

73. Ane we see exactly how much influence Plaid Cymru has in Wales....

Not much.

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Response to BooScout (Reply #42)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 12:34 AM

67. Absolutely spot on.

 

..

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Response to BooScout (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:38 AM

34. Quite

But I would also add subsequent governments to the list (including the Blairite ones).



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Response to TubbersUK (Reply #34)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:51 AM

43. Don't get me started on Blair, lol

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Response to BooScout (Reply #16)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:38 PM

81. Here's a link to an interesting article

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:45 AM

20. The UNITED Kingdom's days are numbered. Scotland will opt out and into Europe.

 

Northern Ireland will opt to join its island neighbor, the Republic of Eire.

England and Wales will end up diminished and isolated.

Sad commentary when zenophobia and fear win the day.

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:08 AM

25. They will need good luck with that....

I strongly suspect Spain would block them in order not to set a precedent for their own separtists like the Basques and Catalonia.....and think Belgium would do so as well because of the Flemish Movement.

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Response to BooScout (Reply #25)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:16 AM

27. Scotland is already talking of a new referendum to leave the UK. It will happen,

 

Spain and Belgium notwithstanding.

Northern Ireland is less sure, but as sectarian violence inevitably rears its ugly head once again, the Irish Republic will look increasingly attractive.

The UNITED Kingdom isn't worthy of its name.

And, yes, these actions will spur the Catalonian and Basque separatist movements.

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:35 AM

32. They can leave the UK.....

But I still think Spain and Belgium would both move to block their entry to the EU. Just looking through the treaties and regulations that apply is a regulation morass of what nightmares are made of. Either Spain or Belgium could veto their entrance.

As to NI.....there's a lot of discussion and thought as to whether the ROI even want them.

Neither issue is simple.

Cameron has just handed the region and the world a great big cluster fuck of epic proportions.

The thought of Boris is PM is scaring the crap out of me right now.

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Response to BooScout (Reply #32)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:48 AM

39. ^^^AMEN to this!^^^

 

Cameron has just handed the region and the world a great big cluster fuck of epic proportions.

The thought of Boris is PM is scaring the crap out of me right now.


In order to counter the UKIP threat from his right and to get himself reelected, Cameron moronically leveraged the risky promise of a nation-wide referendum.

Monumental miscalculation. He will go down in history as the ambitious jackass that facilitated the break up of the UK and ultimately the EU.

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #39)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:54 AM

45. Yup....he's an big unmitigated and absolute ass....

...and that's the polite name I'm calling him this morning.

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Response to BooScout (Reply #45)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 07:02 AM

59. Someone on the BBC compared him to Eden and the Suez crisis

A huge miscalculation that has far-reaching effects.

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #27)


Response to BooScout (Reply #25)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:45 AM

37. Well, Spain is pretty keen on its fishing rights in Scottish (UK) territorial waters,

which support a large proportion of its fleet and mean that Spanish people can feast on langoustines for a pittance while we have to take out a loan to eat them nearer where they're caught, so that's potentially a major bargaining chip.

The Spanish government also has other challenges that may preoccupy it in the shape of Podemos, let alone any extra pressures this current upheaval is likely to bring about.

Nevertheless, as a Yes voter in the last Scottish referendum, I'm really not sure at the moment how this will pan out nor the question of timing, and I think that's shared by others in this country, as last night's result is a whole lot to digest all of a sudden.

As I pointed out on another thread, Scotland's been through a fevered two-year referendum that split the country down the middle, then a UK general election that fed to an extent on the backlash to that result, then the Holyrood election, which saw even more upheaval in the political landscape, it faces local authority elections next year which, if the trajectory continues, mayy root out the last of the Labour timeservers from our major urban councils, and then this ... I'm pretty exhausted with politics, and I think the non-catastrophic but relatively low turnout in Scotland last night may indicate I'm not alone. I'm not confident how another referendum so soon might pan out. And if it didn't result in separation, it would possibly mean the end of the SNP and any prospects of ever gaining independence.

Add to that uncertainty about what the UK's going to look like in a couple of years' time, what the EU's going to look like within the same timescale, and despite my instincts to get the hell out of Dodge, I don't know that I'm in a rush to see another Scottish independence referendum, especially given the sort of government we might have to negotiate the terms of separation with.

But my fellow Scots and government may surprise me yet, as they've done before. I just look at most of the politicians we've elected up here and thank my lucky stars we have them at the moment. We're going to lose a number of committed, experienced, productive MEPs, like Alyn Smith, and it's not clear how they may be redeployed. We're going to lose vital sources of funding for some of our disadvantaged rural areas from the EU that have sidestepped the begrudging stinginess of the UK government. Those are just a couple of facets of the challenging changes ahead.

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:32 AM

50. And Spain is looking covetously

towards little Gibraltar - which has been on a fairly even keel during the UK's EU membership. But apparently no more ...

London also voted to Remain - wonder whether London will secede from England.

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Response to BlueMTexpat (Reply #50)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 01:20 PM

79. Funny you should say that.

There is a social media thrust to declare some sort of independence within the EU for London at the moment. I can't take it too seriously (though I can sympathize with the sentiment), but city-states aren't a new development ...

London mayor Sadiq Khan and Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon have been in communication since the result, and both put out very similarly worded messages reassuring EU citizens currently resident that they are valued and welcome, whcih I think did need saying and nobody from the government seems to have though about doing.

That's an interesting axis in the negotiations to come, and a somewhat ironic one, since we tend to blame the focus on an overheated London economy for contributing to deprivation in other areas of the UK, including Scotland.

Khan's very big business-friendly, which adds another somewhat awkward dimension, but I guess it's inevitable given where he's mayor of.

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 07:08 PM

64. What's sad is that the poorer areas of England and especially Wales

voted against their best interests.

The Anglicized areas of Wales voted Leave, while the Welsh-speaking areas voted Remain. I believe that the Welsh-speaking areas, who vote Plaid Cymru mostly see the EU as protection against the hegemony of England.

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Response to geardaddy (Reply #64)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 09:39 AM

74. What is incredibly mind boggling is....

...how much money from the EU has ben poured into the 'Anglicised' areas of Wales like the valleys. Millions of £'s have been poured into regeneration of villages, roads, etc...and job creation and still they voted to leave. As sad as it makes me to say it, most leave votes were based largely on racist ideology. God damn Nigel Farage.

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Response to BooScout (Reply #74)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:04 AM

83. Exactly.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:50 AM

21. I just read the headlines too. I just didn't think it would happen. People voting against themselves

Iam so sorry for you this morning.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 06:35 AM

51. All my sympathy.

I really had hoped that "Remain" would win out in the end.

Sorry to see that too many in the UK have blamed the wrong entity for too many systemic internal problems.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 07:25 AM

62. I really believed that this would not happen.

A terrible decision. I am so sorry.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 01:16 AM

68. and I have been on cloud nine.

 

Loved Cameron's quitting speech. We should never have got into Europe in the first place.

Older people, like me, remember the good old days. In my town there were so many business, factories. Good paying jobs. She left our babies and dogs outside the shops when we went shopping. No vandalism, very little crime.

Now the countryside is being torn up to more and more build houses, solar farms and segregated cemeteries. I hope there's enough farm ground left to feed us.

I'm over the moon the British people didn't listen to the rich sods, the toffs, the elitists and voted 'LEAVE' X

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Response to Boudica the Lyoness (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 09:59 AM

75. Bully for you.

Older people like you (I'm not exactly a spring chicken myself) may think you can drift off into the nostalgic Cloud Cuckoo Land of warm beer and lilacs quite comfortably, but it's not going to last long before you too start feeling the pinch, just like the younger generation whose horizons some in the boomer generation have just drastically curtailed.

Guess what? That countryside is still going to be torn up. We'll still need alternative forms of energy. Cemetaries (seriously, what an issue to get hot and bothered about!) will still be segregated.

The difference is that it's highly likely the houses built will be even more ticky-tacky and in even more inapproriate locations as the government relaxes international regulations and standards willy-nilly in a desperate drive to throw up crappy jerry-built estates quickly for the population who will still need housing, probably on flood plains where people will be amazed when they have to row like hell to escape their homes on a regular basis.

That countryside you so fondly remember will probably be fracked beyond belief, and you'll be able to watch exotic birds drown in the vast toxic lagoons that will never be properly remediated because such niceties are unaffordable.

And any power production-based incursions on the countryside may well be even more extensive outside the EU because energy conservation's obviously just part of a vast EU plot to do us all down.

I'm over the moon the British people didn't listen to the rich sods, the toffs, the elitists and voted 'LEAVE'


LOL. This is beyond parody. Thanks for the laugh. X

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Response to Boudica the Lyoness (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 12:44 PM

76. Rich sods, toffs, elitists - you mean Boris and Farage and Murdoch and the press barons? I think

Last edited Sat Jun 25, 2016, 02:36 PM - Edit history (1)

too many people DID listen to them.

Sorry that Thatcher and her successors destroyed industry and job availability and security in many areas, including evidently yours; but it's hardly the fault of the EU.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #76)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 01:13 PM

77. Since I posted the above,

Last edited Sat Jun 25, 2016, 02:43 PM - Edit history (1)

I've learned that BTL doesn't actually live in the UK nowadays. Hence the focus on a nostalgic vision of Olde England, I guess.

I'd obviously have phrased my post differently had I known that at the time, but otherwise my response still stands.

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Response to Boudica the Lyoness (Reply #68)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:35 PM

80. Well, AA Gill said it best in last Sunday's Times

"We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of that most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia"

And here's a link to the essay that's not behind a pay wall.

http://spoot-shoot.blogspot.com/2016/06/brexit-aa-gill-argues-for-in.html

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Response to LeftishBrit (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:16 AM

82. Boris against Brexit?

Hi,

Did anyone guess what Boris was really doing? Now he is describing his post Brexit world in which Brexit hasn't happened!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36637037

So that's politics.

D.

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Response to Dworkin (Reply #82)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:20 AM

84. Welcome to DU.

Boris never expected to win. This was all about him and his ambition to be prime minister. Now he's stuck with it.

Exactly. He'd love to be able to have everything go on much as before, just like Cameron, with enough face-saving concessions to pacify what he's stirred up.

Good luck to him with that!

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #84)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:50 PM

85. Unbelievable

Hi Denzil,

The whole deal is hard to take in, but I believe you are right.

D.

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Response to Dworkin (Reply #85)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:03 PM

86. Hang in there!

We're all in it together. Pretty much all of us from the UK that frequent DU, anyway.

You're the first low-post count new DUer I've spoken to recently that hasn't suddenly gone *poof* and turned in to a Name Removed - we've been besieged with transient trolls, and the mods have been on the ball. Build your post count up as quick as you like so you don't get mistaken for one!

See you around.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #86)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 05:22 PM

87. Thanks

Hi Denzil,

Thanks for the welcome. I'm an old hand on the interweb and was glad to find this place after fighting the liberal corner on some right wing sites for too long. Much more comfortable here.

ATB

D.

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