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Tue Apr 18, 2017, 07:51 AM

 

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This message was self-deleted by its author (Ken Burch) on Sun Apr 30, 2017, 02:44 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
Ken Burch Apr 2017 OP
hrmjustin Apr 2017 #1
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #2
hrmjustin Apr 2017 #3
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #4
hrmjustin Apr 2017 #5
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #8
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2017 #6
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #19
T_i_B Apr 2017 #7
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #9
T_i_B Apr 2017 #10
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #11
T_i_B Apr 2017 #12
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #14
Denzil_DC Apr 2017 #20
T_i_B Apr 2017 #21
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #22
LeftishBrit Apr 2017 #32
LeftishBrit Apr 2017 #13
T_i_B Apr 2017 #15
LeftishBrit Apr 2017 #16
T_i_B Apr 2017 #17
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #23
T_i_B Apr 2017 #24
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #25
T_i_B Apr 2017 #26
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #27
T_i_B Apr 2017 #28
Denzil_DC Apr 2017 #29
T_i_B Apr 2017 #30
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #35
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #33
Denzil_DC Apr 2017 #36
T_i_B Apr 2017 #38
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #39
LeftishBrit Apr 2017 #31
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #34
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #42
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #18
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #37
T_i_B Apr 2017 #40
Ken Burch Apr 2017 #41

Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 08:50 AM

1. If Labour loses there will be plenty of blame to spread around.

 

Corbyn will have to step down and the party will have to put up someone who appeals to all factions of the party.

I think the Labour right does deserve some blame but most of the blame goes to Corbyn for not being a good leader.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 09:16 AM

2. The only way to beat the Tories now is to work all-out for Labour.

 

If May gets re-elected, no future elections in the UK will ever really matter.

Thatcherism will have been carved in stone for all eternity.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 09:26 AM

3. Yes. If May gets elected expect Scotland to go independent and Labour will

 

have an even harder time getting elected ever again.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 09:43 AM

4. And the LibDems aren't an anti-Tory party.

 

If they were, they would never have spent five years in a coalition with the Thatcherites.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 09:49 AM

5. They are not on the left like Labour.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 04:30 PM

8. They're hardly even in the center.

 

Last edited Tue Apr 18, 2017, 08:17 PM - Edit history (1)

n/t.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 11:44 AM

6. Realistically, May is highly likely to get re-elected

The Tories are 20% ahead in opinion polls; Labour did badly in the 2 recent by-elections. The Lib Dems may re-take some of the seats they lost in 2015 - with Brexit mattering more now to Lib Dem voters (or potential voters) than the broken tuition fees promise or their general coalition record - but not enough to get rid of the Tory majority, I think - and they'd probably need to make up for more lost Labour seats in addition.

Current betting is for a Tory majority government at 1/5 on - which, taking into account the bookies' profits, means they think it's about a 75-80% chance of that.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-uk-general-election/next-government

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #6)

Thu Apr 27, 2017, 06:36 AM

19. I know that.

 

There's no good reason, though, for anybody in the PLP to HELP her in that objective, though.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 01:40 PM

7. "Working all out" is one of Labour's problems

Last edited Tue Apr 18, 2017, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)

Corbyn has caused a massive spike in Labour membership, but has not been able to translate that into a great deal of activism outside of campaigning for Corbyn in internal leadership contests.

Labour has an enormous paper membership, but really struggles to get the best out of it. And on this score Labour actually compare really badly with rival parties.

As an example, we have county council elections due in a few weeks. The Tories have heavily targeted the ward where I live, bringing in activists from further afield. But for Labour it still seems to be the same husband & wife couple (one of whom is the incumbent councillor) doing all the leafleting. This is one of the big reasons why it looks very likely that we will lose a very good Labour councillor.

It gets worse when you look at Momentum, who are more interested with protesting against the New Statesman for not offering 30 pages of uncritical pro-Corbyn coverage or calling for Tom Watson to be replaced as Labour's deputy leader by Emily Thornberry of all people.

In fact the more you look at Momentum, the more angry you get about the way that all that energy Corbyn and his followers originally brought to the table is being wasted on petty infighting rather than working to avoid an electoral bloodbath.

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 04:34 PM

9. But isn't that due, as much as anything else, to the fact that the PLP never let up on Corbyn?

 

How much could Momentum really do(they did probably save Stoke in the by-election) when they were having to spend most of their energies fighting against being kicked out of the party?

If the MPs really wanted Corbyn out that badly, why didn't the promise that there'd be a left candidate in a post-Corbyn leadership ballot and agree to reverse all the suspensions and expulsions of Corbyn supporters?

It's not as if the voters were ever going to reward the party for getting rid of the rest of the socialists.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #9)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 04:47 PM

10. No.

The PLP are not to blame for Labour's massive new intake of members being led away from making a positive contribution into petty infighting by Corbyn's own faction. They are to blame for a great many things but that fuck-up is down to Corbyn and his supporters.

And the claim that Momentum saved Labour's bacon in Stoke is frankly ridiculous. It was UKIP leader Paul Nuttall being exposed as a massive fraud that bailed Labour out of that tight spot.

Labour is not competing at the present time. Not against the Tories, not against the SNP & Plaid Cymru, certainly not against the Lib Dems, not even against the Greens. And the mismanagement by Corbyn of the spike in Labour membership he created is a major part of that.

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #10)

Tue Apr 18, 2017, 05:23 PM

11. People are less likely to be good managers

 

if their position as manager right is under constant assault under challenge.

And again-why couldn't the PLP have agreed to guarantee that there'd BE a left candidate on the leadership ballot if Corbyn did stand down?

And agree to end the witchhunt of Corbyn's supporters?

It was never reasonable to expect the man to just leave and let everyone who stood with him and everything he stood for just be swept away.

Why couldn't the PLP do the sensible thing and leave it at just getting Corbyn out as leader?

Why did they have to fight for the total obliteration of the left?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 19, 2017, 01:43 AM

12. If you ever actually bothered to read what you are replying to...

You would see that my issues with Corbyn come in large part with how he's mishandled his own (often extremely loyal) supporters.

Compare and contrast with the SNP or the Liberal Democrats and it just becomes embarrassing.

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 19, 2017, 04:44 AM

14. OK, Corbyn could have managed people somewhat better.

 

Still, he's a modest-enough guy that he probably would have gone if the PLP had agreed to guarantee that there'd be a left candidate on the next leadership ballot.

It was never reasonable to expect him to stand down without at least getting that-given that the PLP, if it had its way, would bar anyone to the left of Yvette Cooper from the ballot, and given that a leadership ballot with no one but "moderates" couldn't possibly be democratic or legitimate.

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #12)

Thu Apr 27, 2017, 11:35 AM

20. It has to be said that there have been grumbles from some SNP activists

about many of the new intake of members being less than enthusiastic about going on the doorsteps etc. Of course, any problems the SNP has are dwarfed by Labour's, both in Scotland and the rest of the UK.

It's a perennial problem with all parties, and was even the case when I was involved with Labour several decades ago.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #20)

Thu Apr 27, 2017, 01:16 PM

21. Labour does seem to have it worse than other parties

Last edited Thu Apr 27, 2017, 03:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Which is especially worrying given the surge in membership under Corbyn. The surge in Labour membership should be the parties number 1 campaigning asset right now. There's a lot of talent in Labour's new members that you know other parties would love to have.

In the case of the SNP, I would imagine that level of dominance they have achieved in Scotland would create it's own issues.

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #21)

Fri Apr 28, 2017, 06:58 AM

22. I think someone within the Corbyn movement will write an analysis of that

 

when all of this shakes out in a few years.

With Corbyn's flaws, I still think they'd be doing worse if Owen Smith had won the '16 leadership vote.

From everything I've heard, he would be on the hustings and no one would show up to hear him.

If you can't draw any crowds in a contest where all the voters are in your own party, how are you ever going to generate the public enthusiasm needed to prevail in a general election?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #2)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 09:20 AM

32. OK - for this very reason, let's not treat the PLP as our enemy

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Wed Apr 19, 2017, 03:28 AM

13. Who is or isn't to blame within the Labour Party isn't the point

The point is to try to prevent the horrors of Brexit, and to prevent May from becoming even more of an autocrat than she is already.

Insofar as Labour is to blame for the present general election, it is for not invoking the Fixed Term Parliament Act to prevent it taking place. May needs a two-thirds majority in Parliament to call an election; she wouldn't get it if Labour opposed it. The Tories were happy to put through that act when it suited them, as a means of reducing the possibility of LibDem rebellions ending their power when in coalition; now they are ignoring it so as to strike while the iron is hot. (After May said that she would stay till 2020.) And Labour - Corbyn and all the others- are letting them.

The divisions within the Labour Party contribute to May thinking it's a good time for an election, but I think that there's another important reason: she wants to call it before Brex-shit really hits the fan.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 19, 2017, 07:54 AM

15. And this is why I'm pissed off with Labour

For all their preening and posturing, Labour in 2017 consistently let the government off the hook when they are engaging in politics that go directly against the national interest.

This is a case in point. A snap election now is cynical bullshit from the government designed to make themselves a lot less accountable. It also makes a complete mockery of fixed term parliaments and will hurt Labour particularly badly. So what does Corbyn do? He puts a 3 line whip on it. Can somebody please point the Labour leadership back towards the real world?

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 19, 2017, 01:39 PM

16. Agree

Just heard by the way that that my least favourite Labour MP, Gisela Stuart, Bush fan in 2004, Brexit leader in 2016, is retiring. Good!

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 19, 2017, 03:05 PM

17. Suspect that there will be more retirements

Just as a way of escaping the indignity of being turfed out by the voters.

Although the election may well be much too soon for Momentum to indulge too many of their deselection fantasies....

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #17)

Fri Apr 28, 2017, 07:32 AM

23. There's nothing illegitimate or unfair about the concept of deselection.

 

Without it, a constituency party has no way at all of holding the MP that clp worked to elect and re-elect to any level of accountability at all. If the MP has no accountability to the constituency party, there's no real reason for the constituency party to exist-for that matter, there's no reason for party membership to exist if people within a party have fewer means to hold their party's parliamentarians and candidates to any set of expectations at all. At that point, you've reduced the notion of a party to a leader who imposes policy solely from above, an arrogant, self-entitled parliamentary elite who feel no respect either for the party's values or those who will do most of the work of electing them(it's fairly unlikely that anyone has ever been elected by treating their party's principles dismissively), and a core of party workers which is slowly dwindling towards extinction.

No party with that sort of internal political culture is going to be sustainable and electable.

I can make that assertion because what I've described there is the political culture of the Labour party since at least the accession of Gordon Brown-a party that had failed to win even 31% of the vote in the last two elections on the type of manifesto you prefer, the type of it's-enough-that-it's-US-making-the-cuts policies that had no chance of ever leading to an increased vote for Labour at any possible future election or of providing effective governance if it did.

It's a culture whose defenders within the party are currently working with all their might to sabotage their own party's leader DURING the current general election campaign, and who, on a milder level essentially did the same thing to Ed Miliband during the 2015 campaign, simply because Ed was a few micro-millimetres to the left of Tony Blair(too few for anyone to matter, but still too intolerably many for the sectarian Blairite-Brownites, a cult that could tolerate no deviation at all from "Bambi Thought".

And just so you know, Labour HQ(still controlled by the anti-Corbynite party bureaucracy), mandated the reselection of all sitting MPs including the member for Barrow and Furness who insisted on demanding Corbyn's resignation while announcing that he himself wanted to stand for another term, so all the arrogant parliamentary elitists are exempt from any accountability from the people whose hard work is needed to keep them in their jobs.

I'd really like to know how you think Labour can ever regain power by continuing to treat its most committed activists as a nuisance at best and a menace to be crushed at worse. It's not as though Labour can win solely due to focus group tested phrases in a party political broadcast or the bland, empty pronouncements of a "Great Leader" figure. And there's really no good reason to keep punishing Labour activists for the Eighties-most left-wing campaigners now weren't even born then.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #23)

Fri Apr 28, 2017, 01:06 PM

24. You must be really annoyed...

About sitting members of the PLP being automatically reselected. The snap election has ruined the dream of many Corbynites, which is mass desselection of sitting MP's deemed to be disloyal to Corbyn.

Personally, I am more concerned about the imminent Tory landslide, which is going to see my local Labour MP replaced by a far worse Tory.

We even had Theresa May visiting the most left wing part of my constituency for a very staged photo op today. The significance of a Tory PM campaigning in a famously left wing pit village should not be understated.

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #24)

Fri Apr 28, 2017, 04:38 PM

25. I am as concerned as you are about the imminent Tory landslide-which can still be prevented.

 

The best way to prevent it is for everyone on the left or "center-left"if that second grouping is really anywhere on the left side of the spectrum at all)to stop attacking Corbyn and rally to Labour as the only party that can defeat the Tories. It's too late to change Corbyn as leader.

I don't favor mass deselections, never have. I favor accountability, a means to remind MPs that they are simply one group of people, rather than a parliamentary elite whose boots no one else in the party is fit to lick.

I get it that there will be shades of opinion in ANY party, anywhere, but the anti-Corbyn MPs(the ones who started all of the trouble by refusing to accept the outcomes of TWO legitimate democratic leadership elections) are acting as if they are ABOVE the rest of the party, that they owe the party whose rank-and-file activists keep them in office by doorbelling for them in elections NOTHING AT ALL, that they have no obligation to be significantly to the left of Theresa May at all that it's enough for them to call themselves "Labour MPs".

An MP should no to be treated like a demigod. She or he needs to feel some obligation to at least not sabotage the party-and what the anti-Corbynites have done is nothing but sabotage. They want Labour to go from having a leader with principles to having a leader who will join them in perpetually pushing the party further and further right(voting to cut benefits and support the benefits, as most of these people wanted Labour to start doing after the election, is voting to abandon the last meaningful difference that still existed between the parties. There was nothing else non-Tory left in the Labour program once the poor were officially abandoned and subjected to Victorian sanctimony, nothing at all). Those in the PLP who pushed for the final abandonment have learned nothing at all. They STILL think the party should have just endorsed the Tory manifesto and be done with it.

I want Labour to win. That can only happen if everybody in the party unites behind the winner of the leadership election. What you don't seem to get is that if Corbyn WERE forced out, no one who replaced him(no one to the left of Yvette Cooper would be allowed to by the PLP)would have no right to ASK Corbyn's supporters(who are still the majority of Labour members and supporters)to unite behind them, since that person would only be in the job because the PLP refused ever to reunite behind Corbyn.

Blame the sabateurs if May wing...not the people whose only crime was supporting the leader.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 29, 2017, 03:58 AM

26. Well, Momentum are going about winning support for Labour.....

...in exactly the wrong manner. It's time for the Corbyn fanboys to stop gazing at their own navels and start engaging with the outside world.

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #26)

Sat Apr 29, 2017, 02:44 PM

27. The EU isn't the ONLY issue that matters.

 

Defending the NHS and restoring the cuts in social services(which will never BE restored by any future government if May is re-elected, and which the LibDems have proved they don't care about by announcing that they will never join a coalition with Labour)matter just as much.

Protecting the unions-the only means working people have of defending their rights and which, again, the LibDems don't care about- matters just as much.

Fighting Xenophobia. a cause the LibDems forever abandoned when they joined forces with Cameron, matters just as much.

And if Corbyn were dumped and the sort of leader the PLP wanted were put in in his place took over, Labour wouldn't disagree with the Tories on most of those things(it would go back to Blair's policy of only opposing TOTAL privatization, for now).

No party in the history of British politics ever changed leaders during an election campaign. If Labour did that, it would lose the right to ask anyone who supports Corbyn's principles to vote for it, because the PLP won't allow anyone who is even close to those principles to be leader-most of that lot still think Liz Kendall was entitled to the job.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #27)

Sat Apr 29, 2017, 03:45 PM

28. Wrong

Last edited Sun Apr 30, 2017, 05:57 AM - Edit history (1)

It is the single biggest issue facing the government. You cannot just wish the problem away. It also impacts on just about everything.

Labour's platform is based on spending. Nothing wrong with that, but the country needs money to come here first in order for the government to spend it. This is why trade is so important and why the current trade policies of both Tories and Labour are so bad.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #27)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 08:08 AM

29. "The EU isn't the ONLY issue that matters."

Well, to you, it isn't. You don't even live here.

It seems a constant blind spot. You've consistently failed to appreciate its significance for those of us who live in the UK and are directly affected by it.

All other aspects of social policy hinge on it, including: "Defending the NHS and restoring the cuts in social services ... Protecting the unions ... Fighting Xenophobia ...".

That's why all this navel-gazing about Labour's constant tribulations grates so much.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 08:18 AM

30. That's it exactly

Leaving the EU will have an overwhelmingly negative effect on all areas of policy. Especially with the Tories suicidal negotiating strategy which Labour are only too keen to accept.

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #30)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 04:29 PM

35. Labour should push for a Soft Brexit.

 

That is achievable.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 04:26 PM

33. I have said I would have voted Remain.

 

It was a tragedy that Leave won.



The only point of disagreement you and I have is that I think it's hopeless to try to reverse the EU decision.

Why do you think it's even possible now?

And what good would have come of Labour going all out to reverse it if their doing so ended up giving UKIP 40 seats in the North of England and if it would have required Corbyn to agree to abide by the pointless EU diktat that all EU countries have a balanced budget(a requirement that makes reversing the Tory cuts in the welfare state impossible)?

It's bad that Leave won...it actually sickens me...but I can't see how there was ever any chance of reverse it.

And it's hard to see how punishing Labour for not fighting a hopeless battle can lead to anything good down the road.

If May gets a majority, it won't really matter if the Tories are beaten in any future election. Every right-wing policy will pretty much be carved in stone and social services will just keep shrinking for the rest of eternity if that happens, as far as I can see.

The other problem that always comes up is this:

If Corbyn had been(or somehow still is)forced out as leader, we can assume that the PLO will only allow someone from the extreme right wing of the party, like Liz Kendall, to be elected leader. Labour will still need to hold the votes of everyone who is loyal to Corbyn. How could they possibly obtain the loyalty of that very large group of people when no one who could possibly be imposed as leader now(I'm assuming it would have to go back to the reactionary method of just having the PLP choose somebody)when that person would have to have been part of the anti-Corbyn plotting and would be incapable of saying anything the majority of Corbynites might possibly agree with?

How could there possibly be unity behind a Kendall, or an Yvette Cooper(who was just barely to Kendall's left) or a Chuka Umunna(the guy who thinks you can still be Labour after calling human beings "trash"?

Doesn't that just drag Labour back into the dead zone politics of 2010 and 2015?



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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #33)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 05:08 PM

36. I suggest you spend a little time reading down the posts on this page

and the next one. Over the past year or so, I and a number of others have posted articles and opinions that address many, if not all, of the issues you raise.

That's about all I'll say at this point - other than I don't know how much clearer I can make it to you that I don't give a stuff at this moment about what's left of Labour unless it and its leader get on their hind legs and start providing some meaningful opposition to the Tories rather than three-line-whipping in favour of their agenda - as I'm trying very hard to remain relatively civil.



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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #36)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 05:21 PM

38. Whatever else we disagree on...

...we seem to agree about the disaster that is leaving the EU, and Labour's pathetic reaction to it.

Indeed, it was my involvement in the referendum campaign that made it clear to me that Labour is being badly mismanaged, that Corbyn as party leader is ultimately responsible for this and needs to be replaced, and that many of Corbyns supporters have brought into what has effectively become a rather odd personality cult rather than any wider cause.

Now as somebody who is set to see my local Labour MP replaced by an absolute charlatan of a Tory, Labour's demise does very much affect me. However, I cannot see Labour turning itself around and competing effectively with other parties for some time to come, if ever.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #36)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 05:23 PM

39. The election is happening, and Corbyn is campaigning to get them out.

 

Not sure how much more meaningful opposition he could provide than that. And he has forcefully opposed the entire Tory agenda as leader(those in his party who opposed him had wanted Labour to start joining the Tories in voting for benefits cuts and to support the benefits cap).

I'm not thrilled about the early election, either-but wouldn't it have made Labour look cowardly in the eyes of the voters to vote against it? Was there a way for them to oppose

Isn't it too late now for them to start fighting to stay in the EU?

How could they do it and not look pathetic?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #27)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 09:15 AM

31. The point is that all these things are dependent on NOT Brexiting

Xenophobia in particular; it is at the very heart of Brexit policy. And economic issues - the economy will be drastically hit by Brexit. And the NHS and public services, which depend on the economy.

You may be right that if May gets back in, our public services will be irretrievably damaged - or at least very hard to restore. Which is precisely why we should devote our time to fighting the Tories; and that doesn't just mean not changing leader in the middle of the campaign, it means not changing the PLP in the middle of the campaign. The PLP is not the enemy - nor at present are the LibDems; nor is the SNP; the May government is the enemy.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #31)


Response to T_i_B (Reply #26)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 05:44 PM

42. OK, in your view, what would it mean for Momentum to "engage with the outside world"?

 

n/t.

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #15)


Response to T_i_B (Reply #15)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 05:18 PM

37. If Labour had vetoed the election, wouldn't that have caused massive blowback against them?

 

I'm under the impression that it would have made the party look undemocratic and as if they were scared of the voters.

Would you disagree with that?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #37)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 05:28 PM

40. Of course your theory is rubbish!

Look at the timing. Ask why is Theresa May pulling this stunt now. And call the bullshit out for what it is.

This is a massive, cynical power grab which is happening because
a) Labour is incredibly weak.
b) The shit hasn't hit the fan just yet.

A little bit of holding Theresa May to account on this would actually go a long way. Especially when you consider how fed up much of the public is of bullshitting politicians, which is what a snap election forces us all to endure.

Oh, and it makes a complete mockery of the Fixed Term Parliament act as well, so it runs totally against the whole spirit of one of the coalitions better moments.

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Response to T_i_B (Reply #40)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 05:42 PM

41. Thanks for the response.

 

For the record, had I been a Labour MP, I probably would have voted against the election or abstained.

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