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Wed Nov 27, 2019, 04:21 PM

Jeremy Corbyn reveals dossier 'proving NHS up for sale'

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/27/jeremy-corbyn-reveals-dossier-proving-nhs-up-for-sale

Labour has obtained official documents showing that the US is demanding that the NHS will be “on the table” in talks on a post-Brexit trade deal, Jeremy Corbyn has said.

The Labour leader said the uncensored papers gave the lie to Boris Johnson’s claims that the NHS would not be part of any trade talks, and revealed that the US wanted “total market access” after the UK leaves the EU.

“The uncensored documents leave Boris Johnson’s denials in absolute tatters,” he said at a news conference in London. “We have now got evidence that under Boris Johnson the NHS is on the table and will be up for sale. He tried to cover it up in a secret agenda and today it has been exposed.”

Corbyn said the 451 pages of documents covered six rounds of talks from July 2017 to “just a few months ago”. He said the meetings took place in Washington and London. “We are talking here about secret talks for a deal with Donald Trump after Brexit,” he said.

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Reply Jeremy Corbyn reveals dossier 'proving NHS up for sale' (Original post)
steve2470 Nov 2019 OP
CottonBear Nov 2019 #1
mopinko Nov 2019 #2
NotHardly Nov 2019 #3
LittleGirl Nov 2019 #4
LiberalLovinLug Nov 2019 #5
mopinko Nov 2019 #15
paleotn Nov 2019 #7
mopinko Nov 2019 #14
paleotn Nov 2019 #17
mopinko Nov 2019 #18
mwooldri Nov 2019 #6
Soph0571 Nov 2019 #9
Mc Mike Nov 2019 #11
Soph0571 Nov 2019 #12
Mc Mike Nov 2019 #16
Ghost Dog Nov 2019 #20
Denzil_DC Nov 2019 #22
Mc Mike Nov 2019 #25
Mc Mike Nov 2019 #26
Ghost Dog Nov 2019 #28
Mc Mike Nov 2019 #29
Ghost Dog Nov 2019 #30
Mc Mike Nov 2019 #32
Ghost Dog Nov 2019 #33
Mc Mike Nov 2019 #24
FiveGoodMen Nov 2019 #10
Soph0571 Nov 2019 #13
Ghost Dog Nov 2019 #19
T_i_B Nov 2019 #23
Soph0571 Nov 2019 #8
Ghost Dog Nov 2019 #21
bronxiteforever Nov 2019 #27
Ghost Dog Nov 2019 #31
bronxiteforever Nov 2019 #34
Ghost Dog Nov 2019 #35
bronxiteforever Nov 2019 #36

Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 04:25 PM

1. WTF?

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 04:39 PM

2. i've been telling the trumpkin in my life to watch what is happening in the uk.

i dont know why people dont get that it is just the u.s.
it's the global rich, not the u.s. govt that is screwing people. they are just using their purchased reps to do it.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 05:50 PM

3. Spot on.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 05:54 PM

4. The cancer has spread

All Over The World

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Response to mopinko (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 06:24 PM

5. Yup. a global conspiracy.

Trump is just a useful idiot. He's rich, but he's not in their league.

They use whatever developments that happen to their advantage. Sometimes they create the situations that cause turmoil for populations but helps their bottom line. But things like the mass exodus of Middle Eastern asylum seekers after the turmoil initiated by the Iraq War, and the Syrian revolution, and anarchy in Libya. It created an ignitable situation for white supremacist politicians to gain power in Europe. And affecting things like the Brexit vote.

This RW authoritarian political leader club that's working for this top elite are Putin (who uniquely is also part of this elite) , Trump, Duterte, Erdoğan, Orban, Jinping, Bolsonaro, and whomever now takes over in Bolivia.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 08:07 PM

15. ya know the thing that baffles me most? these people are all looking for conspiracies,

but cant seem to see the one they have been sucked into.
because of my time as a mod here, i know more than a lot of people about trolls, and disinfo sites, and people like the mercers and the kochs.
they have very effectively shifted the target to the govt, even tho the things that piss people off are the things that the rich bought the govt to do.

honestly, i have a great deal of intellectual curiosity about how all this works, and how it all happened. now i feel like i have my own lab rat in this experiment.
if i manage to deprogram him, i will let y'all know.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 06:41 PM

7. And how does the "fence post" in your life respond?

If they're anything like mine, they first stare off into oblivion like I've said something completely incomprehensible. Once they realize what I've said might not compute with their ingrained bullshit, they wave it off as liberal propaganda. What they do currently, though, I have no idea. Those fence posts are no longer a part of our lives until they come to their senses. I'm not holding my breath. Life is too short for such wing nut, religo-crap.

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Response to paleotn (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 08:01 PM

14. well, honestly, this one is trying to hang on to his intellectual honesty, such as it is.

so at least i get to attempt to hold him to his words.

this one is an oddball. most were motivated by racism, but others were targeted in other ways. the bernie bros, which this guy was, were poked and poked in their sense of decency and fairness.
before all this, he was a genuinely, and i mean, genuinely decent person, not just in words, but in deeds.
and he isnt stupid. he went to law school, tho he lost his license. yeah, there is a layer of resentment there. justified in this case.

i tell people that the real deep state pumped toxic hallucinogens into his brain through the hole in his head. a delusional old hippy. believes a lot of stupid shit about his health, about climate, science in general. he has this one squishy place, but most of his humanity is intact. i am hoping this one can be saved, cuz i think he is worth saving.
i'm chipping away at his scientific beliefs, as he has no background in it, but i do. i am hoping this is an entry to his logical brain. we were talking about his faith in apple cider vinegar, and i told him he was bringing an old wives tale to a light saber fight.
in some ways, he doesnt know me very well. he doesnt give me credit for what i know. but he is starting to.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #14)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 09:33 PM

17. He does sound salvageable and that's good.

Religion somehow, someway made my two siblings susceptible to IQ45. I still can't quite wrap my mind around why evangelicals support him so strongly. It's bizarre. The religious stuff I can handle. I was raised in it as well and can more than hold my own, but the dripping hatred they exude since joining the Trump camp I really can't handle. Who knows. Maybe they'll awaken from the Trump stupor as well and all we'll have to argue about is religion. I can handle that.

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Response to paleotn (Reply #17)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 10:36 PM

18. my observation- step 1- bait them into acting like assholes.

it is honestly the only thing he is an asshole about. it is instant detonation the minute you say the word orange. that is not an accident.

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 06:35 PM

6. So.... UK head Rabbi saying Jeremy unfit vs Boris flogging the NHS.

Which is worse? I feel the antisemitism in Labour is easier to fix than re-fixing the NHS after Boris Johnson has sold it off to big pharma. Yes, Jeremy is pro Palestine but he isn't anti-Judaism.

I don't especially like either Jeremy or Boris. I trust Boris less than Jeremy. The NHS isn't safe under a Tory government, but the Tories are successfully running a campaign based on falsehoods and successfully smearing Labour. My gut feeling is that Boris may eke out a narrow win here, there will be a Brexit, there will be an Indyref2, and should I live to retirement age I fear I will see a disunited UK in the near future.

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Response to mwooldri (Reply #6)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 06:58 PM

9. Sorry I have to disagree

JC is an anti-semite, I am going Lib Dem in this election because of this. I have many friends in the Iraqi Jewish community in London and the fear they may have to flee another country having come here as refugees in 60's and 70's is very real.

Yeah and Boris will win, sadly. We need a hung parliament.

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Response to Soph0571 (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 07:20 PM

11. What are some of the Labour nazis' names, Soph?

I haven't seen any names or incidents being covered. I see a ton of nazi types around the Johnson Farage Tory UKIP Brexit side of things. Unlike Rabbi Mavis.

It's your country, I can't say you nay. But I just haven't seen anything, covered.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 07:35 PM

12. They are not Nazi's rather the far left but it is the same tropes

From JC himself:
Saying that Jews did not understand British irony... OK they are British, why wouldn't they?
Tweeting that an anti Semitic wall 'art' should not be removed when it showed 'typical' Jewish bankers making money literally off the back of the poor.
This:


And go through some of the comments from JC supporters. She had to leave the party because of this.
Holocaust 'explainers' minimising it not being expelled from the party.
There are so many examples. It is so disheartening.

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Response to Soph0571 (Reply #12)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 08:08 PM

16. Thanks for the re, Soph. With your prompting, I saw the anti-semitism issues around

Mear One and Ken Livingstone, from March of '18. I'll have to borrow my wife's ipad to access the tweet link, but will do it.

I've been watching Kevin Logan's analysis of UK politics for a while, and was following the UKIP neo nazi stuff, and have been paying attention to Bannon and tRump's input into Tory and Brexit politics. Nazis up the wazoo. Did Rabbi Mavis make any statements about not liking those nazi ties?

You know, all our anti-NAFTA and GATT stuff over here, US labor had good cause to oppose the increasing mobility of capital and decrease of regulatory power over profits and cost externalization, but we didn't get any political leader on the left who pushed against it in any way that gained traction or the forefront of opposition or change to the agreements. The only high profile 'successes' in terms of coverage of 'anti' Nafta leaders went to dirtball nazi fake populists on the far right like Pat Buchanan, Ross Perot, and little Donnie dRumpf. Seems like Corbyn's stuck on factually opposing the EU and not wanting the dirtbag neonazis in the Tory Brexit Ukips to destroy the economy and political power of the UK and Western Europe. Though that doesn't excuse him saying ''Jewish =/= British". Or Labour having any active nazi antisemites in their ranks.

Ours over here who were tanking the Womens' Marches 'from the left', with divisive antisemitism, were from the far right Farrakhan end of things.

I'll view the tweet link for an edit on reply. Thanks, again.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 05:56 AM

20. He never said "Jews / British."

He said certain aroused Zionists in particular appeared to lack a sense of typically British irony, in the context of the political debate ongoing at the time.

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #20)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 07:27 AM

22. Thanks, Ghost Dog.

It gets tiresome having to debunk the same claims when the person making them apparently doesn't bother reading the replies.

The last time Sophie posted that particular claim, I posted this:

Mr Corbyn nonetheless stood behind the comments, insisting that he was referring to a specific group of “pro-Israel activists” and had not used the term Zionist as a “euphemism” for the Jewish community.

He said he had spoken at the conference to “defend the Palestinian ambassador in the face of what I thought were deliberate misrepresentations” from people “for whom English was a first language, when it isn’t for the ambassador.

“I described those pro-Israel activists as Zionists, in the accurate political sense and not as a euphemism for Jewish people – and that is made clear in the rest of my speech that day,” he said. “I am now more careful with how I might use the term ‘Zionist’ because a once self-identifying political term has been increasingly hijacked by antisemites as code for Jews.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-zionists-speech-english-irony-reports-parliamentary-standards-antisemitism-a8507196.html


More context from Larry Derfner, who initially joined in the condemnation of Corbyn's remarks:

Knowing to whom and to what Corbyn was referring in his “English irony” remark makes it impossible, in my view, to consider it anti-Semitic in any way.

He was referring to an exchange that had taken place recently at a conference on Gaza that he hosted in Parliament. One of the speakers there, Manuel Hassassian, the Palestinian ambassador to the U.K., reportedly said, “You know I’m reaching the conclusion that the Jews are the children of God, the only children of God and the Promised Land is being paid by God! I have started to believe this because nobody is stopping Israel building its messianic dream of Eretz Israel to the point I believe that maybe God is on their side.”

Clearly, he was not being serious; he was being ironic.

Just as clearly, Hassassian is not a native Englishman. He was born and raised in Jerusalem, didn’t live in London until he was over 50. He speaks with an Arabic accent.

This is the crucial thing to know in order to understand what Corbyn says later at the Palestinian Return Centre about the Zionists in question and English irony.

As seen in the video, Corbyn recalls that after Hassassian’s speech in Parliament, some Zionists in the audience “berated” Hassassian for what he said. He then makes his infamous comment, but he does so in direct comparison with Hassassian, noting that those who berated the ambassador “don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either.” By comparison, Corbyn went on, “Manuel does understand English irony, and uses it very effectively.”

This context reveals that Corbyn was not calling out Jews; he was not even calling out Zionists in general. He was calling out those particular Zionists who’d berated Hassassian.

He was not ridiculing them for being alien, for failing or refusing to acculturate themselves to such things as English irony, which would have indeed been a classic anti-Semitic remark. Instead, he was simply ridiculing them for being, as an Englishman might put it, relatively thick.

https://forward.com/opinion/409563/the-missing-information-that-exonerates-jeremy-corbyn/


It was indeed a very specific comment in a specific context. I also note that Miriam Margolyes had no compunction about using the term "Zionist" in the same sense in her Channel TV interview on antisemitism the other day.

At this stage in the election, I'd very much rather be talking about the subject of the OP.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #22)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 11:33 AM

25. Interesting info. I like the forward.

Funny how the nazi side is making hay about their opposition's 'anti-semitism'.

I've always found that Soph makes good and honest posts, but couldn't call to mind 'Labour nazi' incidents or individuals.

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #20)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 11:43 AM

26. Thanks for the reply, Ghost. I like Soph, and she's one of the few self identified UK post-ers

I know. I think she's an honest pro-Democracy post-er, but hadn't seen any high profile nazi anti-semite links to Labour, so I asked her for info. Being usually unable to see tweets from my computer, I made the characterization of Jews =/= British from what I could glean from the post, as something that I would find unacceptable. She didn't make it. Corbyn didn't say it, either.

Seems like a bullshit fake charge of antisemitism to muddy the waters is coming from the side that actually backs nazis, the Tory Brexit Ukip types, and their buddies like Bannon.

And I agree with the post-er who replied to you, that suddenly the discussion isn't about Johnson getting caught red-handed trying to destroy NHS.

They used a lying bus campaign talking about how they'd strengthen NHS with all kinds of new money that would be available after they brexited the UK, in the case of the original Brexit vote, didn't they?

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #26)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 03:27 PM

28. You've got it, Mc Mike.

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 10:03 AM

29. Thanks for the article, Ghost. Excellent and full of info.

The actual nazis muddy the water, use corporate media to do it. A few high profile people say something myopically uninformed that backs the nazi viewpoint, and that gets all the coverage. While openly antisemitic nazis back the Johnson Farage Tory Brexit UKIP side of things, and not a whisper of complaint about it, from the same sources.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 11:31 AM

30. Yes... Corporate and in our case State-owned media (the BBC)...

Already we have (ex-) British Secret Intelligence Service people, and the Secretary of State of the U. S. A. Mr. Pompeo, threatening regime change operations should Labour be democratically elected into UK power.

The offshore tax haven system, and EU attempts to curb it, has something to do with this situation.

And the Zionist project*.

Edit Labour’s manifesto says,

“We will: • Immediately suspend the sale of arms to Saudi Arabia for use in Yemen and to Israel for arms used in violation of the human rights of Palestinian civilians, and conduct a root-and-branch reform of our arms exports regime so ministers can never again turn a blind eye to British-made weapons being used to target innocent civilians.• Reform the international rules-based order to secure justice and accountability for breaches of human rights and international law, such as the bombing of hospitals in Syria, the illegal blockade of the Gaza Strip…”

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 12:28 PM

32. State ownership of BBC seems like it could still lead to corporate influence,

just with an extra step. Corporations influence politicians that they help elect, who influence the state owned entity via appointees.

The tax haven system shows the profit motive behind the crazy self-destructive politics, I guess.

Around here, we have a ton of 'Authorities'. Airport Authority, Water and Sewer Authority, Sports and Exhibition Authority, Port Authority. In all cases, the quasi governmental Authority boards are made up of a combination of current and former elected officials and business community experts, and they always wind up screwing the taxpaying 'owners', citizens, consumers, to the benefit of some slimeballs with business and political connections.

We also always have problems with our 'old hands' intel people and 'former' intel people who were spun off into business ventures. Serving the interests of corporate people who want to put themselves above our top elected people.

With our NAFTA and GATT, we wound up with a lot of flouting of all the nations' regulations against corruption, pollution from cost externalization, dangerous conditions that affect the public. A lot of suing across international lines, one country's corporation suing the government of another country for 'lost profits' due to 'onerous' regulatory laws to protect life and safety of citizens.

I don't know about the Zionist project. I like and back J-Street and the New Israel Fund, and look at their views on internal and external Israeli politics. Can't stand Likud.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #32)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 12:51 PM

33. Yes. The Zionist thing is/should be seen as a red herring.

"... flouting of all the nations' regulations against corruption, pollution from cost externalization, dangerous conditions that affect the public..."

This is what's at stake.

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Response to Soph0571 (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 11:20 AM

24. I looked at the tweet. The art is really shitty, as well as being nazi.

Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2019, 10:04 AM - Edit history (1)

The incident is from '12, not '18. One of the tweeters pointed out that Corbyn is one of the few MPs who signed on to all 5 bills opposing anti-semitism.

While the Repug party, trump humpers, Bannon, Tories, Brexiteers, and UKIPs have people who are openly, flagrantly pro nazi, violent anti-semites.

I didn't get to read all the comments in the tweet thread, but I bet there are rightwing antisemites jumping into the fray to 'defend' Corbyn and ''support' his 'antisemitism'.

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Response to mwooldri (Reply #6)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 07:08 PM

10. "Yes, Jeremy is pro Palestine but he isn't anti-Judaism"

So, then, I don't understand "the antisemitism in Labour"

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #10)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 07:43 PM

13. This is a good read on it from the New Statesman

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Response to Soph0571 (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 01:37 AM

19. But there is not one concrete example of what is denounced

Last edited Thu Nov 28, 2019, 05:38 AM - Edit history (1)

in this whole diatribe!

Pure empty propaganda.

Here's a reasoned analysis full of data:

... Prima facie, the allegation that Corbyn is an antisemite is a libel that may be dispensed with.

The remaining two accusations against Labour—concerning prevalence and institutionalisation—substantially overlap, since if antisemitism barely existed in Labour it could scarcely have become ‘institutional’. The anti-Labour campaign therefore largely rests upon the empirical claim that antisemitism has become pervasive within the party’s ranks.

Let’s examine whether this allegation withstands scrutiny...

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/smoke-without-fire-the-myth-of-a-labour-antisemitism-crisis/

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Response to mwooldri (Reply #6)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 08:58 AM

23. I actually think the NHS will be easier to fix than Labour's scandals

The Corbynite faction at the centre of the endless anti semitism nonsense won't go without a fight.

Ultimately I'm just really angry that we have all of this nonsense to deal with. Labour's anti semitism problems and the proposed lopsided US trade deal included.

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Wed Nov 27, 2019, 06:53 PM

8. Of course it is up for sale

Brexit Britain will have to sell everything to keep the lights on... However this bit of 'breaking news' is not breaking, the Tories have been selling off parts of the NHS for years!!! This document shows that in any trade relationship the USA would expect us to conform to the US patent law on drugs which would increase prices to what US consumers have to pay. That does not mean that the NHS is up for sale, business just becomes more expensive... as will everything with Brexit.

Oh and we also get chlorinated chicken, hurrah!

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 06:19 AM

21. It's clear the U.S. negotiators want a Free Trade Agreement (FTA)

with everything the UK has to offer up for grabs (by large corporations). The latest document in the cache from July 2019 summarises the state of play from the U.S. Point of view as:

"... there would be all to play for in a No Deal situation, but UK commitment to the Customs Union and Single Market would make a UK-U.S. FTA a non-starter..."


The full set of documents is here:

https://order-order.com/2019/11/27/excl-read-full-corbyns-unredacted-trade-documents/

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 01:06 PM

27. Also the GOP wants to destroy the NHS.

There is more to this potential agreement than just“free trade”. Ideologically, the existence of the NHS is anathema to the Republican Party. If they can get a favorable agreement and start the process of dismantling the NHS, it would be a win for the GOP. I don’t think the Tories of Little Britain will be able to dissuade a hungry Uncle Sam.

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Response to bronxiteforever (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 12:02 PM

31. Uncle Sam, the real Sam, is not so very hungry, though,

is it? Just, some, are rapacious.

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 12:55 PM

34. You are right Ghost Dog. The average American

does not want to hurt or destroy the UK’s healthcare system. I meant Uncle Sam as represented by the Orange Nero, the GOP and rapacious US healthcare corporations.

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Response to bronxiteforever (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:04 PM

35. Thanks for that, bronxiteforever!

Have a (DU) hug :

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #35)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:12 PM

36. Thanks Ghost Dog! Back at you.

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