Venezuelan leader warns of sabotage plans

[naaman fletcher]

The Associated Press

CARACAS, Venezuela -- Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro claims government opponents are planning to sabotage the country's power grid and interrupt food distribution ahead of the April 14 presidential election.

Maduro's comments come amid growing concerns about sporadic shortages of some basic foods and occasional power outages in several regions of Venezuela.

Government foes have rejected similar allegations about planned sabotage in the past.

Opposition politicians argue that the government is to blame for shortages because it has not allotted sufficient U.S. dollars to businesses that import food. They also say the government is responsible for the blackouts because it has not made investments required to maintain the power grid.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/03/25/3305951/venezuelan-leader-warns-of-sabotage.html#storylink=cpy

[Bacchus4.0]

1. translation: outages and shortages are expected to continue

and we are too inept to do anything about it.

[COLGATE4]

2. and WE know who's fault it

REALLY is? (Hint - the CIA)

[sabrina 1]

3. Yes, most likely with the help of the usual right wing suspects who can't wait to take Venezuela

back to the days of being owned by Global Oil Cartels. Good for them for announcing it in advance so if they had any plans to do this, they will be the number one suspects should it happen.

[COLGATE4]

4. Yep. You're right. It couldn't

possibly be that Maduro is simply anticipating an exacerbation of these very problems which have plagued the Chavez government to this day and is looking for a scapegoat. No, it's those damned RW'ers who forced Chavez to install price controls which have fouled up the economy and created shortages in items in which Venezuela had previously been self-sufficient. And it's clearly the fault of the oil cartels who have caused widespread shortages of electricity, not the lack of planning and/or providing sufficient resources to the electric sector to address these problems, expropriating the one electric utility in Vz. that was being run efficiently and effectively.

Yes, I can now see how announcing this 'in advance' announcement makes "them" the 'number one suspects'. I'm sure it will be of great comfort to the populace which patiently suffers shortages of basic supplies and numerous electric blackouts to know it's the fault of the 'usual right wing suspects'.

[sabrina 1]

5. You keep forgetting, they earned the reputation they have when they attempted to overturn

a democratically elected President. So yes, it most likely is something they would try to do, not as bad as what they've done in the past, but definitely well within the realm of possibility considering who we are talking about. To dismiss such claims, is sort of like saying that 'no, the Republicans here would never try to influence an election in any way they could'.

If you're upset for their bad reputation, poor dears, then tell them this is what happens when you demonstrate just how far you are willing to go, even including treason, to win an election. They earned the reputation, and people are definitely open to the possibility of criminal activity on their part once again. And that includes the CIA btw.

[COLGATE4]

7. Pretty much a non-response.

I couldn't care less about the reputation of the CIA (or any of the other hobgoblins Chavez idolators drag out from time to time to try and blame for the country's ills). My point is that this is classic preemptive pre-electoral bullshit which Maduro and company are once again flogging in order to try to divert attention away from their own inept economic strategies which are now negatively affecting much of the Venezuelan populace.

[sabrina 1]

8. Interesting response, especially the idismissive attitude towards the traitors who

in any other country, this one eg, would have received the death penalty, who tried to overturn the will of the people in a CIA backed coup. Imagine if such a thing happened here, the KGB eg backing a coup against ANY of our presidents?

As for politicians reminding the people of the extremes the right wing in Venezuela is willing to go to, good for them. I'm sure the people there do not want a repeat of the treasonous actions they were victims of not so long ago.

Venezuela's economy is better than ours, btw, so much better that it has been suggested that maybe we should have consulted with the Chavez Government for advice to stop the continuing and impending disaster the solution for which we seem to believe is TAKE FROM THE POOR. Chavez was able to improve Ven's economy without robbing the poor and bailing out crooked banks.

But thanks for stating your views, I now understand more about where you are coming from.

I never support Right Wingers, I have yet to see one good example of a Right Wing government.

I sincerely hope that the Democratic administration in Venezuela beats the far Right extremists once again. As do most Democrats I have spoken to.

[COLGATE4]

11. After reading your response, particularly

this : "Venezuela's economy is better than ours, btw, so much better that it has been suggested that maybe we should have consulted with the Chavez Government for advice to stop the continuing and impending disaster the solution for which we seem to believe is TAKE FROM THE POOR. Chavez was able to improve Ven's economy without robbing the poor and bailing out crooked banks."

I am moved to ask - have you ever looked at the economic situation in Venezuela? Leaving aside the pure ideology, using which you fail to respond to my specific points: inflation, devaluation of the currency, scarcity of basic articles in the stores, electric service that's unreliable, draining the national Petroleum company (PDVSA) of assets and appointing political cronies to run it (and not even going into plundering the national oil riches to support ideological movements abroad - Ecuador, Argentina, Bolivia, Nicaragua and, of course Cuba), on what facts do you base this hyperbolic assertion?

Ideology is fine, in its place. But while you are entitled to your beliefs, you are not entitled to your own facts. Please show me where I am mistaken in analyzing the present economic situation in Venezuela.

[Bacchus4.0]

13. you will never see any evidence from that poster n/t

s

[sabrina 1]

18. Are you seriously questioning, which even the biased Western media has had a problem doing, that

the Chavez government did not cut poverty and illiteracy in half during his time in office?

For those people who were mired in poverty while Global Corps sucked up the profits of THEIR resources, you can bet the economy has improved, immensely which is why Chavez kept winning and why Madura will most likely win. I have way, way more faith in the judgement of the actual people regarding Venezuela's economic situation than all the biased Western media, and the big budget that pays for their anti-Venezuealan people propaganda, put together.

I have read it, the disingenuous reporting on inflation, eg. Supporting other Latin American nations struggling to regain their own sovereignty after decades of oppression by western backed dictators, is one of the most constructive and admirable things Chavez did. Of COURSE the Global Cartels are not happy about it, he managed to create a stronger region against their monetary invasions, which of course was the whole point. What is good for them, is good for Venezueala. It was money very well spent as we see the frustration, (Wikileaks cables were very revealing) of the greedy, criminal Corps who can no longer just place another puppet Dictator in power in any of those countries, to do their bidding.

I find it extremely strange that any Democrat would support any Right Wing government, here or anywhere else. In fact I don't know a single Demcorat who does. Of course none of these governments are perfect. The destruction to their countries from decades of Western backed oppressive dictatorships and right wing governments, will take a long time to undo. But it is amazing how far they have come in such a short time and I am happy to see them now in a better position to help their own people and to keep at bay the forces that kept them enslaved for so long. If they continue on this democratic path, I believe that region of the world will finally reach its potential. Shame how the crooks here who denied them those rights, have never been punished. As a result, they are still trying to regain control of those nations.

[COLGATE4]

23. Once again, non responsive.

I didn't ask about literacy or poverty but rather asked about specific issues which you insist on avoiding, falling back on the tired, trite "it's all the fault of the running dog capitalists". You forgot to mention the Illuminati, the Bilderberg Group and the Freemasons in your pantheon of those responsable for Venzuela's economic ills. I imagine they too played a part in bringing about the genuine problems Venezuela suffers right now. You refuse to address the role that the mismanagement, rampant cronyism and ideological economic screw-ups by Chavez and company played in creating Venezuela's current problems, instead imagining that they are always the fault of others.

I leave you to your idealized vision of the arrival of true socialist paradise known to mere mortals as Venezuela. You might want to actually go there some time so you can personally experience and bask in the joys of Chavez's miracle. Do let me know how that works out.

[sabrina 1]

38. What a thoroughly revealing post. I'm sorry I missed it before.

But thank you. Don't stop please. We need to see these kind of comments on DU. At least you're, well, honest (I suppose) about your disdain for the 'left'. Imaginary though your fantasies about Democrats on the Left are, they are, very, very familiar. Speaking of 'tired' and 'old'.

[Flatulo]

24. About that alleged coup attempt...

Wikipedia has this to say:

After returning to power, Chávez claimed that a plane with U.S. registration numbers had visited and been berthed at Venezuela's Orchila Island airbase, where Chávez had been held captive.[citation needed] On 14 May 2002, Chávez alleged that he had definitive proof of U.S. military involvement in April's coup.[citation needed] He claimed that during the coup Venezuelan radar images had indicated the presence of U.S. military naval vessels and aircraft in Venezuelan waters and airspace. The Guardian published a claim by Wayne Madsen– a writer (at the time) for left-wing publications and a former Navy analyst and critic of the George W. Bush administration– alleging U.S. Navy involvement.[4] U.S. Senator Christopher Dodd, D-CT, requested an investigation of concerns that Washington appeared to condone the removal of Mr Chavez,[5][6] which subsequently found that "U.S. officials acted appropriately and did nothing to encourage an April coup against Venezuela's president", nor did they provide any naval logistical support.[7][8] According to Democracy Now!, CIA documents indicate that the Bush administration knew about a plot weeks before the April 2002 military coup. They cite a document dated 6 April 2002, which says: "dissident military factions...are stepping up efforts to organize a coup against President Chavez, possibly as early as this month."[citation needed] According to William Brownfield, ambassador to Venezuela, the U.S. embassy in Venezuela warned Chávez about a coup plot in April 2002.[9] Further, the United States Department of State and the investigation by the Office of the Inspector General found no evidence that "U.S. assistance programs in Venezuela, including those funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), were inconsistent with U.S. law or policy" or ". . . directly contributed, or was intended to contribute, to [the coup d'état]."[7][10]
Chávez also claimed, during the coup's immediate aftermath, that the U.S. was still seeking his overthrow. On 6 October 2002, he stated that he had foiled a new coup plot, and on 20 October 2002, he stated that he had barely escaped an assassination attempt while returning from a trip to Europe, however his administration failed to investigate or present conclusive evidence to that effect. During that period, the US Ambassador to Venezuela warned the Chávez administration of two potential assassination plots.[9]
Venezuela expelled US naval commander John Correa in January 2006. The Venezuelan government claimed Correa, an attaché at the US embassy, had been collecting information from low-ranking Venezuelan military officers. Chavez claimed he had infiltrated the US embassy and found evidence of Correa's spying. The US declared these claims "baseless" and responded by expelling Jeny Figueredo, the chief aid to the Venezuelan ambassador to the US. Chavez promoted Figueredo to deputy foreign minister to Europe.[11]
Hugo Chávez repeatedly alleged that the US had a plan to invade Venezuela, a plan called Plan Balboa. In interview with Ted Koppel, Chavez stated "I have evidence that there are plans to invade Venezuela. Furthermore, we have documentation: how many bombers to overfly Venezuela on the day of the invasion, how many trans-Atlantic carriers, how many aircraft carriers..."[12] Neither President Chavez nor officials of his administration ever presented such evidence. The US denies the allegations, claiming that Plan Balboa is a military simulation carried out by Spain. [13]

Just what proof did Chavez produce that the CIA tried to overthrow him? It seems that he's used the Yanqis as a bogeyman for quite some time, insisting to his dying breath that we are going to invade.

[sabrina 1]

26. Jimmy Carter: "US 'likely behind Chavez coup'!

I'll take Carter's word for it over the easily manipulated Wiki pages.

US 'likely behind Chavez coup'

Jimmy Carter, a former US president, has said that Washington knew about an abortive coup against Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president, in 2002, and that it may even have taken part.

"I think there is no doubt that in 2002, the United States had at the very least full knowledge about the coup, and could even have been directly involved," Carter said in an interview with Colombian El Tiempo newspaper published on Sunday.

Carter said it was understandable that Chavez continues to blame the US for the failed attempt to overthrow him.

Maybe you trust Bush/Cheney more than Carter, who knows, but I have found that the Bush gang have lied about just everything, while Carter has generally been reliable when it comes to the truth.

The Bush gang were also behind the Haiti Coup.

I can't understand the sudden defense of the Bush administration's crimes here on DU. Airc, since most DUers generally did their homework, were observing these coups AS THEY happened, saw the liars from the Bush administration caught red-handed when they cheered on the 'new president' (poor Condi, she jumped the gun and embarrassed herself before the world)

What interest could a Democrat possibly have in denying the obvious crimes of the Bush administration? The only people I ever saw try to defend Bush from these allegations back then were Bush supporters.

More from the NYT:

Bush Officials Met With Venezuelans Who Ousted Leader

Senior members of the Bush administration met several times in recent months with leaders of a coalition that ousted the Venezuelan president, Hugo Chávez, for two days last weekend, and agreed with them that he should be removed from office, administration officials said today.

But administration officials gave conflicting accounts of what the United States told those opponents of Mr. Chávez about acceptable ways of ousting him.

....


''We were not discouraging people,'' the official said. ''We were sending informal, subtle signals that we don't like this guy. We didn't say, 'No, don't you dare,' and we weren't advocates saying, 'Here's some arms; we'll help you overthrow this guy.' We were not doing that.''

The disclosures come as rights advocates, Latin American diplomats and others accuse the administration of having turned a blind eye to coup plotting activities, or even encouraged the people who temporarily removed Mr. Chávez.

And an amazing and extremely revealing statement from another of Bush's criminal gang. Considering how he was installed by the SC, I suppose it is not suprising. It should send chills down the spine of anyone who believes in the Democratic process.

Asked whether the administration now recognizes Mr. Chávez as Venezuela's legitimate president, one administration official replied, ''He was democratically elected,'' then added, ''Legitimacy is something that is conferred not just by a majority of the voters, however.''

You go with the Bush story if you want to, I will stick with what we all saw at the time, and with Jimmy Carter. Iow, I agree with the rest of the world, that the Bush gang were aware of the coup, entertained the traitors in DC, jumped for joy when they thought the goal had been accomplished and revealed their disdain for the Democratic process that led to Venezuela no longer being an annex of the Oil Cartels.

And most of all, I trust Democrats like Jimmy Carter while I do not even listen to liars like the Bush gang.

[Bacchus4.0]

27. you and Al Jazeera quoted Carter wrong, unsurprisingly

the article quotes Carter that the he thinks the US had full knowledge of the coup (I agree), and could have even been directly involved.

Nowhere does he say that the US is likely behind the coup.

[sabrina 1]

28. He said what he said. If you don't like it, that is not my concern.

There are plenty of other sources quoting him.

Put it this way. We have suspects, suspects who are known liars and war criminals. We have opportunity, we have motive, which they themselves have revealed. We have a history of CIA backed coups in that region of the world. We have the suspects jumping for joy, and jumping the gun after the crime was committed. We even have members of their own administration confirming their lack of clarity in condemning any attempt to remove a democratically elected president. And finally, being that the suspects are among the least credible 'witnesses' to be found, considering not a word of truth was ever spoken by any of them, it is laughable to pretend that they had nothing to do with that crime.

We also are familiar with their MO when it comes to committing crimes. And it was displayed clearly here. We have very credible people who have looked at the evidence and concluded they were behind that coup.

I have yet to meet a Democrat who doubts for a minute their involvement.

And we have many reports, which I will be happy to post, of admissions of NGOs having contact with the coup plotters. USAID and NED. It used to be a good cover, but not any more. Not in SA, not in Egypt or anywhere else. Maybe it's time we just mind our own business for a change. We're not very good at hiding our involvement in these crimes.

I suppose you will tell me next that we had nothing to do with the coup against Allende either.

If you want to keep defending the Bush administration against the world wide charges against them in that coup, that is your right. But the evidence is all against them. They wanted it, they don't even deny that, they cheered, precipitously as it turned out, when they got what they wanted. Then, and airc as a Democrat at the time, they were completely deflated when the people of Venezuela restored their president to his rightful position. I will never forget poor Condi's face when she had to try to pretend they had nothing to do with it. That was a beautiful moment. I will forever be grateful to the Venezuelan people for giving us that rare defeat of the Bush War Criminals.

If it looks like a duck etc.

[Flatulo]

29. From your own cite...

"I think there is no doubt that in 2002, the United States had at the very least full knowledge about the coup, and could even have been directly involved," Carter said in an interview with Colombian El Tiempo newspaper published on Sunday"

Could have even been directly involved. That falls far short of any standard of guilt anywhere in the world. Where is Mr. Carter's proof? Who were his sources?

One more thing - you have a persistent habit of accusing, however obliquely, anyone who does not buy into your Venezuela/Chavez narrative, of being a Bush supporter. You remind me of all the 9/11 conspiracy theorists accusing anyone who did not believe that 9/11 was an inside job of believing Bush' version of events and hence supporting him. That's such an elemental logical fallacy that it is unworthy of a rebuke. Well, there is only the truth. No one owns it. It exists in it's own objective reality space.

You've failed epically in proving that the US was behind the 2002 coup attempt. I'll take this into consideration in the future regarding your claims.

[sabrina 1]

30. The world knows that the Bush Administration was behind the Coup in Venezuela.

Too bad the US doesn't believe in the rule of law anymore, or the Bush criminals would have been tried for their crimes, something we on the left expected to happen when we worked so hard to elect Democrats.

I never met a Democrat when that coup took place, who did not believe it was backed by the Bush war criminals. You may take that as you like, but it is a fact.

The anti Chavez, Bush protecting left is a new expericence for those of us who spent the Bush years trying to stop their crimes, including ousting leftist leaders like Aristedes in Haiti and Chavez.

I believe you see what you want to see. Bush and his bevy of war criminals were aware of the coup against Chavez. They did nothing to stop it because they wanted it to happen.

Members of their own administration have confirmed this. Any good democratic President would have tried to stop such a crime from happening..

[Flatulo]

31. Oh, I'm certain the Bush administration wanted it to happen. Unfortunately, the standard

of proof that a crime was committed is higher than heresay and opinion.

In 2002, I was working 80 hour weeks and didn't have any extra mental bandwidth for political intrigue. I vaguely remember hearing about the coup, but it being LA where coups are somewhat common, didn't give it much thought.

I do object to the continual US bashing on this forum whenever something goes wrong in the world. This isn't a Venezuela-style socialist democracy, and I doubt it will ever be. If you think that Chavez is universally adored, even here on DU, you would be mistaken. I'd give him a 50% approval rating at best, and that's on a pretty left-leaning site. Even 40% or so of his own countrymen wanted him out. All CIA employees, I suppose.

I also find it a bit disturbing that you feel that a candidate who garnered 40% or more of the vote down there should face life imprisonment for treason. Jesus, if you ever get any political power I expect the guillotines will be working 24/7/365.

[Flatulo]

35. Well, we seem to have gone from Bush being behind the coup, to Bush being aware of it

and doing nothing to stop it.

Can you see the difference between these two statements?

That's called 'moving the goalposts'.

[sabrina 1]

39. No, what we did was to remind those who forgot how the Bush War Criminals

work, of their MO. Same as with Iraq.

What I liked most about the 'investigation' into their actions before the Coup, although they were forced to acknowledge their associations ONLY with supporters of the Coup, was how when asked for documentation of their 'excuses'. I think I saw the statement in that report 'These matters discussed ORALLY'. Lol, of course they were. When you are planning a crime, stupid as the Bush is, you sure do not document it.

As I said, in any court of law they would have been convicted by their own statements. But as we know, US backed coups are POLICY here, as are illegal invasions of Oil Producing or strategically situated ME countries and no war crime will go without a medal of honor.

There is no doubt, based on their own responses and acknowledgements that the Bush administration backed, even acknowledging financial support for the coup d'etaters, through NED, yes they admitted that.

But Bush always had his apologists for some reason. So just as they got away with the war crimes we are 'looking forward from', they got away with backing the coup against Aristedes and Chavez. So far.

[Flatulo]

43. Just to make my position clear, we have plenty of

useful idiots in the USA too.
And lest you think I'm completely berserk, I agree with you that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield should be charged with war crimes for utterly fucking up a country that did us no harm and presented no threat to us.

I'll further shock you by agreeing that the US behavior in LA has been intolerable for well over a hundred years. We have absolutely no right to interfere in any way with the affairs of any other sovereign state. The people in that region have every reason to distrust American motives, because we've given them good reason to.

Lastly, I completely respect their decision to elect whomever as their leaders. They are voting for what they believe to be their evonomic interests, although I believe that in the long term, crony socialism will fail in much the same way that crony capitalism has stumbled.

I wonder if you would have been equally supportive if Caprilles had won, or whether you would have cried 'saboteurs, Yanquis, CIA! etc.

[sabrina 1]

44. I am glad that we agree on most of these issues.

If Caprilles was a genuine conservative with the best interests of his country at heart and without his associations to the tainted, far right wing, yes, I would have been supportive of their decision and hoped he would be a good leader.

He didn't win, which is a testament to the fact that the people obviously do not trust anyone associated with the dark past of Latin America.

I guess my answer is that I would worry very much about anyone who has ties to the wealthy Right Wing elite who were tied to the Global interests that backed so many of the dictators there. Capriles is tied to those elements so I was concerned that once in office, he would invite back all the elements that we are so familiar with now.

Like Chavez or not, he released the country from those influences and if he had done nothing else, that could only benefit the country.

The West has not taken the rise of leaders who are not willing to sell their countries to the highest Global bidder and are still operating in that region of the world. So the threat is still there.

I feel confident that with that history being as recent as it is that the people will be wary of a return to leaders who are so closely tied to Western Powers.

[naaman fletcher]

20. I agree

that I would not put it past the US to be involved in anything at all, but do you have any evidence whatsoever that the CIA is behind power outages in VZ as opposed to incompetence? Two years ago Chavez blamed it all on low resevoir levels. Was he wrong? Should he have blamed it on the CIA and right wingers?

Are you even open to the possibility that mismanagement could be to blame?

[sabrina 1]

21. No, I have no evidence of the CIA causing outages. We had similar outages in Ca airc, which later

turned out to have been caused for political purposes though. Rolling blackouts, claimed to be necessary at the time, but later revelations showed that there was much corruption involved. Put it this way, it's possible that Madura knows the opposition is backed by Western money, that pretty much has been proven, and it is nothing new. He may not know what plans they have to try to derail the election. We know they certainly have done worse than cause outages. It is possible therefore that he is simply 'playing chess' as it were, using their rules, in order to win.

If you are dealing with dishonest people who do not have your country's best interests in mind, like the old saying goes 'all is fair in love and war'. He has the job of protecting Venezuela from outside forces who sure never had the country's best intersts in mind. He isn't using guns and the military, so if he's just being clever and using something that is likely to happen anyhow and blaming them for it, to fight back against those forces, well I would say he's playing 'chess' by their rules. And that seems fair enough to me. I have no doubt they will try something nefarious. The Right never fights and wins fairly, we know that here. But they WILL scream when someone takes their own weapons and uses them against them, as seems to be happening here.

Otoh, he may be right. But you don't win against the Radical Right by being a nice guy. A little sleight of hand in politics, played well without harm to anyone really, just tit for tat, seems justified considering what is at stake and the well known history of Venezuela and what the Right is capable of. As for the CIA, they have been operating in SA for decades, so I would be surprised if they are not still doing so. Their history has been to favor the far right. So all things considered, I don't see the real problem here.

You could view it as kharma actually. We know they wil ltry anything, look at the propaganda they spend so much money on, but if he doesn't know what, blaming them for something else instead, has a sort of kharmic aura about it. Maybe if they just fought fairly, he could too. But that is not the case.

[naaman fletcher]

22. Fair enough

My only point is that I have lived in Africa and in the Balkans, in places where the power routinely goes out due to mismanagement and corruption. Electricity generating and transmission systems need not only a lot of capital, but a lot of good management as well. We take for granted how good our power is (despite the CA problems you mentioned).

That VZ is a wildly corrupt nation is a fact. Now, I am not blaming that on Chavez. It has been for a long, long time, and cultures of corruption take a long time to change.

Again, while I would not be shocked if it turned out that there was some kind of plot, Occam's Razor suggests that the problems are mismangement and corruption.

[Bacchus4.0]

6. its alot easier to blame the CIA than accept the reality that your own

administration is a lying corrupt cess pool of incompetence. I wonder how Maduro and company sleep at night given every time they open their mouths they lie. I guess the money they steal from pueblo makes it easy.

p.s. Maduro said just the other day that the enormous levels of crime in the country have been caused by capitalism.

[sabrina 1]

9. Oh, I don't blame the CIA for the far Right's behavior in Venezuela. I blame the Far Right, Capriles

and his right wing backers. No one had to commit treason with the help of the CIA. But they did, so all Venezuelans are wise to be wary of those who were lucky enough to not have happen to them what would have happened here had they engaged in such treasonous behavior. It does show though that when you are too lenient, as Chavez was, with traitors, it doesn't really help the country.

Good for Mandura for being aware of what they are capable of and for letting them know they are on notice should they again try to influence an election in any kind of criminal manner. It's great to see Latin American left leaders getting smart enough to not become victims to outside forces as so many did in the past. It's about time.

[Bacchus4.0]

10. Chavez committed treason and the acting president is named Maduro

you have no idea what you are talking about.

[COLGATE4]

12. +1

just a fervent belief in the greatness of Fearless Leader, devoid of information or facts.

[sabrina 1]

14. Like I said, your comments are very enlightening.

[Bacchus4.0]

15. other than the above post, I will simply assume all your posts are false

too bad there isn't a way to automatically unrecommend all your posts on DU. I see why you like Maduro though since everything that comes out of his mouth is baseless too.

remember, Maduro, which also means a ripe cooked plaintain in Spanish. They also share the same personality and intellectual traits.

[sabrina 1]

16. Now THAT is a compliment! Your, unwitting I am sure,

endorsement, of both Madura, and I am proud to say, of me has enhanced my reputation here more than you know. So thank you!

[Bacchus4.0]

17. I believe that Ven. has a literacy program, run by the Cubans,

you may want to look into that.

[sabrina 1]

19. The Cubans have a better infant mortality rate than the US. You should check it out sometime.

[Flatulo]

32. 40% or so of Venezuelans supported Caprilles. To your mind, are they traitors worthy

of execution?

[sabrina 1]

33. I am a liberal Democrat. I do not believe in the death penalty. Where did you

get that idea? This IS a Democratic forum.

Let me ask YOU a question. Why would any democrat support a right winger like Capriles? A fundy Christian no less. I am awed by what has happened to regarding this sudden support for the Right here on DU. Airc, and I've been on online Democratic forums for more than a decade, this is something relatively new. Democrats support Democratic leaders, they do not support Right Wingers. So why are you supporting a Right Winger? I am very puzzled by this.

[Flatulo]

34. Why, I got that idea from your posts. You've repeatedly called Caprilles a traitor, and you remarked

that had he played his shtick up here, he would have gotten the death penalty. So naturally I assumed that anyone who supports him, like 40% of his countrymen, would also be considered traitors to your way of thinking. And traitors get the death penalty. I apologize if I've assumed too much.

The fact is that the only time I've ever noted any criticism of Chavez from you is when you remarked that he'd been too lenient on his political opposition. Too lenient. That's quite an authoritarian kimd of statement. It's statements like this that make me wonder just how much of a democrat you really are. You seem quite intolerant of any opposition, for any reason, to Chavez.

For the record, I don't support Caprilles. It's totally up to the folks down there who to elect, and really doesn't concern me at all. In fact, I don't even particularly oppose Chavez. I think of him as sort of a good-natured loon with money, kind of like my uncle Tony. He certainly seems to have good intentions, at least as far as the poor are concerned. And he's certainly very generous with Venezuela's wealth. He spread it around quite liberally to those who supported him. To those who didn't, well, don't let the door hit you in the ass etc.

What does concern me, and I'd bet you a piece of pie that many others feel the same way, is what I see as complete and utter blind devotion to any particular leader or ideology from a supposedly liberal, impartial and independent thinker.

I'll be completely honest with you - I oppose you. I oppose anyone who can manufacture rationalizations for bad behavior as fast as Chavez supporters do. I oppose you because if we're ever to elect a leader of his ilk up here, a leader who would stuff his government with incompetent cronies and then pay the masses to look the other way by fixing their teeth, and chase away hard-working, productive members of the middle class just for being successful, that you would whole-heartedly support such a leader as long as you were getting your piece of the skim.

"Wait", you say..."Bush was a fool who appointed his idiot buddies to important posts where they proceeded to fuck up the country!" We'll, yes, absolutely, and I opposed Bush vehemently during his tenure. But I think Bush and Chavez are flip sides of the same coin. The only difference between the two is who they were patronizing to stay in power.

The Soviets used to have a phrase for people in other countries who argued their failed ideology for them - useful idiot. Your certainly not an idiot, but you do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time defending a man who almost no serious thinkers have taken seriously.

Anyway, you asked. I don't dislike you personally - I'm sure you're a vey nice person in real life. And I think that you sincerely believe everything you post. Just like the true believers for Bush defended him for 8 years. But I wanted to respond honestly, because I try to be an honest person as much as possible. It sometimes gets me put in ignore, but as long as I don't violate the TOS the mods dont seem too keen to ban me.

I'll understand if you put me on ignore after this and simply wish you good evening.

[sabrina 1]

36. You did not get it from my posts. Stating facts about what would happen

to traitors in this country which does include the death penalty being that we still practice that barbaric policy, in no way means someone agrees with the death penalty. It is merely stating a fact.

I put no one on ignore. Your opinion of me means zero to me so not to worry.

As for this:

The Soviets used to have a phrase for people in other countries who argued their failed ideology for them - useful idiot.

I suppose that means in your opinion, that the majority of the people in Venezuela who have repeatedly voted for Chavez are 'useful idiots'. Funny, you accuse others of so many nefarious motives, but have so much disdain for a people who have made it clear over and over again that they approve of the policies and the government they made sure to keep over the past 14 years.

I respect those people and the only reason I bother to comment on Venezuela at all, ironically, is because I see 'people in other countries, mostly the US' constantly interfering in their business, disrespecting their choice of leader, supporting the Far Right whose history in that region of the world has been brutal, and MOSTLY because I AM a Democrat and my interest in Venezuela began after the US Backed Coup in 2002. Any leader hated that much by the Bush administration had to be someone on the same side as I, as a Democrat, would be. It turned out I was right. Chavez cared about the People. A Cardinal sin to the Global Criminals who have and are still destroying countries.

Latin America is the only region of the world that has managed to stop them finally. It is what should be happening in Europe, kicking out the World Bank, the IMF, the greedy Global Cartels that for so long operated in Latin America.

And imo, anyone who fails to see what is going on and why it is so important to support the rejection of the predatory takeover of nations as is currently happening now in Europe, is being willfully blinded by a hatred for the 'the left', a hatred created by the Right Wing Cold Warriors. It is so great to see that dangerous garbage so completely rejected in such a large part of the world now.

And way past time.

You can save your talking point about anyone who sees the big picture being some kind of besotted schoolgirl blinded by idolatry. I know where that comes from also. I've been supporting Latin America's right to sovereignty and to the rejection of the old Cold War brutal policies for over ten years against the Bush supporters who populate the internet slamming anything good that any leader NOT installed by the Western powers, does for their own people.

I support the people of Venezuela, THEY chose their government, THEY know best their own history and what is good for them. And imo, anyone who is working to deprive them of that right, due to the bought-and-paid-for propaganda published in the Western media, THEY are the useful idiots, blinded by propaganda to the point of refusing to respect the sovereignty of nations like Venezuela.

You should know that insults on the internet mean zero to me. I assume that when someone resorts to personal attacks, they have lost whatever argument they were trying to make. It is a sign of failure. Nor do I bother to alert on them. I prefer to leave them for everyone to see.

[naaman fletcher]

37. Thank you for that post

I share your views 100%. Everywhere else people think I'm a radical pinko. It's only here I am called a right winger. It's just because, like you, I oppose useful idiots and the notion that as long as people where a red beret they can do no wrong, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

More importantly i oppose the anti-intellectualism of dismissing any and all positions on one side of an arguement while believing anything on the other side.

[sabrina 1]

40. To you then, a majority of the people who have elected leaders not approved

by Western Powers, are 'useful idiots'. I respect the choices made by the people of Latin America and would not even comment on them were it not for the constant propaganda which has now crept onto Democratic forums, intended to undermine the progress made in that region of the world. Unless of course you think that taking back their sovereignty from Global Cartels and institutions designed to enslave them ecomomically such as the World Bank and the IMF, now plying their horrendous influences in the First World, is not their right to do.

What fascinates me about the supporters of the cold war policies that devasted Latin America, is their attack on the people of the region who have chosen to reclaim their rights to choose who their leaders will be. 'Useful idiots'. How revealing that is.

And where is the concern for people in other parts of the world, who actually ARE ruled by brutal Dictators? Funny, you never see much interest in those people who are still under the thumbs of brutal dictators supported by Western powers. So we can deduce that no matter how they try to couch their 'concern' for Latin America, now finally making progress away from those disastrous influences, they actually were quite happy with the situation when Pinochet ruled with our help. Otherwise we would see as much outrage over our support for the dictators of Bahrain, of Uzbekistan, of Saudi Arabia.

[naaman fletcher]

41. I said no such thing

I was not talking about people in VZ, I was talking about people posting on this site.

[Flatulo]

42. I thought I'd made it perfectly clear who the useful idiots are.

Sorry if that slipped past you.

[Flatulo]

25. Excellent. If there are grid disruptions, it's the Yanqui's fault. If there aren't,

Maduro takes credit for foiling the Yanquis. He can't lose.

Ya gotta love those odds.